The Westboro Baptist Church - Hate Group or?

[Lynn]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

It freaks me out that so many people actually do think we don't even deserve to be alive.

I agree. It freaks me out to consider all the anti-gay laws around the world which result in murder and torture for people who just want to be who they are. This group feels dangerous because they are so overt in their hatred, although I think it's true that the most dangerous people are the ones planning in secret. But, then again, how many more people think it's OK to express this hate openly when this group has made it so acceptable and proven that their freedom of speech will be upheld over the wellbeing and safety of others?

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Lynn

I agree. It freaks me out to consider all the anti-gay laws around the world which result in murder and torture for people who just want to be who they are. This group feels dangerous because they are so overt in their hatred, although I think it's true that the most dangerous people are the ones planning in secret. But, then again, how many more people think it's OK to express this hate openly when this group has made it so acceptable and proven that their freedom of speech will be upheld over the wellbeing and safety of others?

I guess until facebook, I kept myself pretty insulated from this sort of thing, now, it is all over the place and I am giving it more thought. It really is scary.

I hope people in general see how hate filled this is, and it backfires.

[Luv]

Phelps son was interviewed on tv last night. He ran away from the cult when he was 18. Even he says as many of us would agree..that it is fueled by hate by his father. He also mentioned that he is related to almost everyone in that group,,intermarrying is goin on.
At pride last year in San Diego I saw some people protesting the pride parade..I asked one of the guys holding a sign if he was with Phelps.Westboro..he said "No,,that guys an asshole" lol !
It is a cult fueled by hate

[Rufusboi]

Originally Posted by Lynn

I agree. It freaks me out to consider all the anti-gay laws around the world which result in murder and torture for people who just want to be who they are. This group feels dangerous because they are so overt in their hatred, although I think it's true that the most dangerous people are the ones planning in secret. But, then again, how many more people think it's OK to express this hate openly when this group has made it so acceptable and proven that their freedom of speech will be upheld over the wellbeing and safety of others?

Even though I dislike what they do and say as long as they are not being physically violent, bombing gay bars etc I see them as harmless. The worse of the worse are the crazies that kill abortion doctors and bomb clinics. Phelps knows what lines to stay behind. And I dislike Phelps as much as anyone, but I'm on the side of free speech on this. The worse thing we can do is limit speech. I think the Arizona law is far far worse than Phelps. I think DOMA laws are far far worse than Phelps. Phelps' message is actually lost on most people who can't follow his weird logic. He's become a public nuisance but outside of that he doesn't warrant much attention. Phelps doesn't threaten physical safety. He hurts emotionally, he makes statements about us and about God and he shows up where he's not wanted, but none of that is illegal. If we make Phelps' pickets and banners illegal then next thing we know gay pride parades are illegal. Think about how many people are offended by Pride parades and by our banners. If we stop Phelps then they stop us.

Rufus

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Rufusboi

Even though I dislike what they do and say as long as they are not being physically violent, bombing gay bars etc I see them as harmless. The worse of the worse are the crazies that kill abortion doctors and bomb clinics. Phelps knows what lines to stay behind. And I dislike Phelps as much as anyone, but I'm on the side of free speech on this. The worse thing we can do is limit speech. I think the Arizona law is far far worse than Phelps. I think DOMA laws are far far worse than Phelps. Phelps' message is actually lost on most people who can't follow his weird logic. He's become a public nuisance but I outside of that he doesn't warrant much attention. Phelps doesn't threaten physical safety. He hurts emotionally, he makes statements about us and about God and he shows up where he's not wanted, but none of that is illegal. If we make Phelps' pickets and banners illegal then next thing we know gay pride parades are illegal.

Rufus

Really great points!

[Bit]

Yes it is a family, yes it is a hate group, yes many of the members are lawyers, yes they are certainly after media attention.

Nate Phelps, the estranged son--ran as fast as he could when he turned eighteen--was recently in Kansas to speak against the group. They didn't picket him.

I guess they don't wish media attention drawn to someone who is believable, and has accused them of improprieties and even child abuse.

[Cyclopea]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...4110804746107#

One of my fave quotes from the Hatemongers documentary is when one of his daughters, in addressing the concern that the family/church is a typical authoritarian cult with an all-powerful patriarch, states:
"Our Father would never permit us not to think for ourselves. He insists on us thinking everything through." lol.

I've never heard anyone ask them the obvious question: Has it occurred to them that they are actually helping gays politically more than hurting us?

I don't think they actually care about "gays", rather that they happened upon a meme that garnered them a great deal of attention. I think we should keep paying attention to them because the moment we get bored they are likely to start blowing things up. Or eating their babies (which they talk about an awful lot ).

[suebee]

Originally Posted by Rufusboi

Even though I dislike what they do and say as long as they are not being physically violent, bombing gay bars etc I see them as harmless. The worse of the worse are the crazies that kill abortion doctors and bomb clinics. Phelps knows what lines to stay behind. And I dislike Phelps as much as anyone, but I'm on the side of free speech on this. The worse thing we can do is limit speech. I think the Arizona law is far far worse than Phelps. I think DOMA laws are far far worse than Phelps. Phelps' message is actually lost on most people who can't follow his weird logic. He's become a public nuisance but outside of that he doesn't warrant much attention. Phelps doesn't threaten physical safety. He hurts emotionally, he makes statements about us and about God and he shows up where he's not wanted, but none of that is illegal. If we make Phelps' pickets and banners illegal then next thing we know gay pride parades are illegal. Think about how many people are offended by Pride parades and by our banners. If we stop Phelps then they stop us.

Rufus

There are always examples of more harmful behavior Rufus. But I doubt that those grieving families who have had to endure the picketing of their loved one's funeral would call their COMPOUNDED emotional pain harmless. And I think of our sisters and brothers who are not yet out, who come across a web site called "God Hates Fags". Then I think of the suicide rate in our community - especially among adolescents. I have a hard time classifying what the Phelps call "free speech" and "God's work" as harmless. Sorry, I can't agree with you on this one.

Glad Canada told them they weren't welcome here.

Sue

[Soon]

Originally Posted by Rufusboi

Even though I dislike what they do and say as long as they are not being physically violent, bombing gay bars etc I see them as harmless. The worse of the worse are the crazies that kill abortion doctors and bomb clinics. Phelps knows what lines to stay behind. And I dislike Phelps as much as anyone, but I'm on the side of free speech on this. The worse thing we can do is limit speech. I think the Arizona law is far far worse than Phelps. I think DOMA laws are far far worse than Phelps. Phelps' message is actually lost on most people who can't follow his weird logic. He's become a public nuisance but outside of that he doesn't warrant much attention. Phelps doesn't threaten physical safety. He hurts emotionally, he makes statements about us and about God and he shows up where he's not wanted, but none of that is illegal. If we make Phelps' pickets and banners illegal then next thing we know gay pride parades are illegal. Think about how many people are offended by Pride parades and by our banners. If we stop Phelps then they stop us.

Rufus

I'm with Sue on this one.

We don't have tolerance for hate speech here. (Canada)

I don't see the analogy b/w Pride and Phelps, either. Hate Speech laws are in place to stop people from spewing their hatred and possibly inciting violence towards others. Pride Parades would not fall under this category, so I fail to see how Pride would suffer due to the enactment and enforcement of Hate Speech laws.

Phelps is not welcome in our country and was, in fact, arrested here for Hate Speech.

I don't see my country suffering from any loss of freedom due to our hate speech laws.
I think these laws protect others and allows for a more humane and safe place in which to live.

[Rufusboi]

I think Canada is light years in front of the US. You have civil partnerships, national health, and a hate speech law. We have......pretty much zilch. I would love to marry my partner. We can't. Obama has thrown us a couple of scraps so far. So if I have to rank problems, Phelps and his banners get pushed down the list. I mean, I call DOMA a form of hate speech. Its far more powerful hate speech that anything Phelps can throw at me. Do I feel bad for the familes of soldiers that have to see and hear that crap...yes. The real hate speech is being spewed in our state and national legislatures. But its going to take more than a hate speech law to stop it. Hate speech comes in lots of different forms. A hate speech law in the US might stop the Phelps crew but its doesn't stop the politicians, the religious leaders who vote and preach against us.....no hate speech law will stop that. It just stops the crazies like Phelps. I think we waste too much time on Phelps.

[Soon]

Originally Posted by Rufusboi

I think Canada is light years in front of the US. You have civil partnerships, national health, and a hate speech law. We have......pretty much zilch. I would love to marry my partner. We can't. Obama has thrown us a couple of scraps so far. So if I have to rank problems, Phelps and his banners get pushed down the list. I mean, I call DOMA a form of hate speech. Its far more powerful hate speech that anything Phelps can throw at me. Do I feel bad for the familes of soldiers that have to see and hear that crap...yes. The real hate speech is being spewed in our state and national legislatures. But its going to take more than a hate speech law to stop it. Hate speech comes in lots of different forms. A hate speech law in the US might stop the Phelps crew but its doesn't stop the politicians, the religious leaders who vote and preach against us.....no hate speech law will stop that. It just stops the crazies like Phelps. I think we waste too much time on Phelps.

Canada has had full marriage equality since 2005 as opposed to civil unions/partnerships (U.K.) which are separate from marriage.

-----

I see what you are saying about wasting time on Phelps, and that drawing attention to him is exactly what he seeks.

I know that discussing hate speech in a USA context is a bit moot considering it will never happens, so Westboro (and the like) have free reign to say what they want.

I think they are a hate group and don't think they are harmless, but I think the only way to combat them over there is to not give them the media attention they seek. (They did this in Gainesville, FL recently. The paper didn't give them any space/time).


I hope the USA does move forward on the main issues (DOMA, DADT, ENDA) that affect our community. My marriage is affected by the laws in your country and it is devastating, so I understand.

[Rufusboi]

MCC sent this out today

METROPOLITAN COMMUNITY CHURCH

RICHARD DAWKINS FOUNDATION



Nate Phelps To Tell Story Of Growing Up

In Westboro Baptist Church of Topeka, Kansas

Son of 'God Hates Fags' Pastor To Speak At Event

Sponsored By Gay Church, Atheist Foundation



ADVISORY:

Press conference will be held on Friday, 4 p.m., 23 April 2010 at Metropolitan Community Church of Topeka, 4425 SW 19th Street, Topeka, KS to answer questions related to this event.



MEDIA RELEASE:

Nate Phelps left his family at the stroke of midnight on his eighteenth birthday. After years in Canada, Nate returns to Topeka to share his story growing up as the son of Fred Phelps, the "God Hates Fags" pastor, and as a member of the Westboro Baptist Church. Admission is free.



Nate Phelps son of the Rev. Fred Phelps, will be speaking in Topeka, KS, April 24, 2010, from 2- 4 p.m. at the Topeka Performing Arts Center, 214 SE 8th Ave. (http://natephelps.com/)

[Cyclopea]

Here is that programme:

[Apocalipstic]

So Fred will soon be in Nashville, alas, I will be out of the country and can't counter picket.

Amusingly, one of the churches he picked to protest is Two Rivers Baptist where the last time I attended...the sermon was on "If Fathers are Weak their Children will be Serial Killers, Child Molesters or Homosexuals"

Here is why they say they chose Two Rivers....straight from the Phelps website

"Two Rivers Baptist Church 2800 McGravock Road WBC will picket Two Rivers Baptist Church to remind these so-called Christians that the Lord commanded them to boldly preach the whole truth of the Gospel, not namby-pamby, maudlin lies about a weak, effeminate Christ. The Baptists know full good and well that God hates fags and that he casts fags and those that enable them into Hell forever. They are afraid to tell the truth about God's Word because they do not want to suffer afflictions for Christ's sake. Matthew 5:11 "Blessed are ye when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake." These so-called baptists care for this world, not the next"

Idiots.

All I can hope is that the Baptists see what hate looks like, straight up and don't actually join in.

Bitter? Yes I am.

[Cyclopea]

Originally Posted by Rufusboi

Even though I dislike what they do and say as long as they are not being physically violent, bombing gay bars etc I see them as harmless. The worse of the worse are the crazies that kill abortion doctors and bomb clinics. Phelps knows what lines to stay behind. And I dislike Phelps as much as anyone, but I'm on the side of free speech on this. The worse thing we can do is limit speech. I think the Arizona law is far far worse than Phelps. I think DOMA laws are far far worse than Phelps. Phelps' message is actually lost on most people who can't follow his weird logic. He's become a public nuisance but outside of that he doesn't warrant much attention. Phelps doesn't threaten physical safety. He hurts emotionally, he makes statements about us and about God and he shows up where he's not wanted, but none of that is illegal. If we make Phelps' pickets and banners illegal then next thing we know gay pride parades are illegal. Think about how many people are offended by Pride parades and by our banners. If we stop Phelps then they stop us.

Rufus

I agree. Yay First Amendment!

[Ebon]

"Nothing worse than a monster who thinks he's right with God."

Captain Malcolm Reynolds,

[betenoire]

I still think he's a faux news smegwaffle, but I agree with him here. I'm surprised, though, that the tea baggers aren't burning him in effigy over this.

[EnderD_503]

I see them as both a Baptist Church/Christian org. and a hate group.

Edit: I'm apparently temporarily dislexic and thought the question read if we saw that as a church or as a hate group. Bleh, anyways, either way I think what they do shouldn't be permitted by law. Alone they would be somewhat neutered, but there are a heck of a lot of groups out there that are seen as somewhat more "legit" that follow a very similar pattern. Not a harmless group that is for sure.

[Sheridan]

Westboro Baptist Church is a religious hate group, using religious passages to try and prove their hatred towards others is justified. They hate everyone I think , but they do hate the LGBTQ community just a little more in that special way only they can, nasty signs and screaming hate words to random people passing by.

[macele]

i wouldn't want to engage with any of these people. they have a deep dark hatred inside of them. engaging only leads to anger. that's what they want. refuse them acknowledgement.

it's not about being baptist. or methodist. pentecostal. and so on. it's hate. a hateful heart.