Question to butches and how they deal with differences in dating

[The_Lady_Snow]

Cupcake,

Do you feel this is a Butch behavior more than it is a Femme behavior? Are butches more likely to jump into monogamy than Femme's?

[Ginger]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Cupcake,

Do you feel this is a Butch behavior more than it is a Femme behavior? Are butches more likely to jump into monogamy than Femme's?

Just to jump in, even though The Lady Snow didn't ask me, she asked Imperfect Cupcake,

in my experience, as soon as I sleep with a butch woman, she wants monogamy with me and is very hurt if I don't feel the same way.

But moving forward, I only want to sleep with someone I really care about, and have intentions of putting the energy into seeing if there is relationship potential there.

But what a good question. I guess I could generalize and say butches tend to want monogamy more that femmes but that's just based on the narrow sampling of my own (limited) experience—which I intend to change.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Cupcake,

Do you feel this is a Butch behavior more than it is a Femme behavior? Are butches more likely to jump into monogamy than Femme's?

I like this question and I hope people jump in to discuss it.

Originally Posted by Ginger

Just to jump in, even though The Lady Snow didn't ask me, she asked Imperfect Cupcake,

in my experience, as soon as I sleep with a butch woman, she wants monogamy with me and is very hurt if I don't feel the same way.

But moving forward, I only want to sleep with someone I really care about, and have intentions of putting the energy into seeing if there is relationship potential there.

But what a good question. I guess I could generalize and say butches tend to want monogamy more that femmes but that's just based on the narrow sampling of my own (limited) experience—which I intend to change.

My gut reaction is this......

Young butches/femmes (up to maybe 30/early 30's) want monogamy right away.

Past early 30's I think that butches desire to settle into a relationship more quickly than femmes the same age. My experience is that it is this age that femmes kind of "grow into their own". They become more confident, more empowered to be who they want to be, and less anxious about being in a relationship.

For some reason, I don't think butches move into this in the same sort of way. I don't know what that is about, but over my 15 years of being on b-f sites, this is something I have noticed. There is a larger population of older butches dating younger femmes than the reverse. I think that this often are the butches who want the quick monogamy factor (I am thinking maybe mid-later 30's butches who dating mid-late 20's femmes).

Admittedly, I haven't thought about this before, so this is a quick gut response.

I am curious to see if our gender identities (butch/femme) and our ages and the ages we date will play a factor in our perceptions and personal experiences.

I think it was be great if people were willing to state their gender identity/age when they post, as it will add fodder to the discussion.

I'll go first. I am a 44 year old butch.

Thanks for the topic, cupcake!

[SleepyButch]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

My gut reaction is this......

Young butches/femmes (up to maybe 30/early 30's) want monogamy right away.

Past early 30's I think that butches desire to settle into a relationship more quickly than femmes the same age. My experience is that it is this age that femmes kind of "grow into their own". They become more confident, more empowered to be who they want to be, and less anxious about being in a relationship.

For some reason, I don't think butches move into this in the same sort of way. I don't know what that is about, but over my 15 years of being on b-f sites, this is something I have noticed. There is a larger population of older butches dating younger femmes than the reverse. I think that this often are the butches who want the quick monogamy factor (I am thinking maybe mid-later 30's butches who dating mid-late 20's femmes).

Admittedly, I haven't thought about this before, so this is a quick gut response.

I am curious to see if our gender identities (butch/femme) and our ages and the ages we date will play a factor in our perceptions and personal experiences.

I think it was be great if people were willing to state their gender identity/age when they post, as it will add fodder to the discussion.

I'll go first. I am a 44 year old butch.

Thanks for the topic, cupcake!

I'll go next...47 Year old Butch.

You brought up some interesting points.

Never thought about this much. I don't think that Butches want to jump into monogamy more than femmes as much as I think that cupcake was wanting to ask the questions from her perspective and experience, which is why this was addressed to the Butches. I could be wrong though.

I've always dated younger than I. Never thought about your point above where you talk about older butches dating younger femmes because of wanting quick monogamy. That hasn't held true for me in my earlier years or now. That's not the reason I like younger women. Besides, I've met plenty of "older" (meaning older than the Butch seeking the monogamy) femmes who want to have a quick monogamous relationship. So I think Butches who want monogamy right now can find it all over the age spectrum and do.

It will be interesting to see if anyone else chimes in because I'm not saying this is wrong. I just haven't had that experience before.

I've always wanted monogamy aside from my last relationship. Still do.
Age has a lot to do with it for me at this point in my life. Let's face it. I'm not the spring chicken I once was. I don't want to get into another relationship that won't work for me, her, or both of us. So I'm wiling to take my time dating and not just jumping into the "you are my gf now" monogamy after a few dates. Yes, I have been guilty of this in the past. Euphoria can be a bitch!

All I know is that I don't want to be one of those Butches who gets to a certain age and settles for someone. No one will be happy with that situation. So the scenario of this thread, where she wants to take time getting to know each other is fine by me, maybe even the best way to go about things at this point.

[imperfect_cupcake]

I'm a 45 year old femme. I live in western Canada, presently. Lower middle class up bringing. Back ground in monogamy, non-monogamy and poly. I generally only date butches (mostly those who are on some scale of genderqueer, including butches who are women *and* another gender)

I was brought up with people experimenting sexually with friends, and sometimes those freindships turned into relationships after a time. That was seen as "normal".

When I stopped dating men and bisexual women and started dating butches my whole world was turned upside down with how "conservative" it was, even in comparison to my "straight" relationships with men. I found lesbian communities and butch-femme dyke/queer communities tended to be far more conservative in terms of monogamy than when I was dating men and bisexuals. I had zero understanding of the rituals.
Everything moved much too fast for me but I tried quite hard to fit in. After all, that's what dykes do, right?

I find the butches (locally, like between here and seattle) who are between say 33 and 40 to be actually pretty relaxed in terms of not rushing into things and being ok with dating casually and having sex in a less ... Ownership... (Not in the fun kinky way)... Kind of way. They seem to get the pace a bit more. I tend not to date people fresh out of relationships because they tend not to have gotten a sense of themselves again yet and still act in that "relationship" kind of way almost right off the bat. Like their gears haven't changed yet.

Once I start dating above the age of 40, I find it splits into two camps - ones who are terrified of commitment cause they got married to a complete asshole for 8 years, and those who seem to need monogamy off the bat from the word go, and are really suspect that if I don't want monogamy for the word go, then it means I don't like them enough and that I'm shagging everything I come in contact with.

Obviously not everyone thinks that way, as masterfulbutch has explained. But the assumption that I'm a dirty game playing skank because I'm cautious and I like sex seems really unfair and frankly, kind of insulting.

Over the past three years, when I have actually really, really liked someone, I don't tend to seek out new people to date but I don't like making a commitment just yet either. So I don't offer monogamy. But I don't *know* if I really really like someone unless I get to know them.

I also *dont* like doing really romantic stuff when I'm getting to know someone. That feels far too emotionally familiar to me. Since I am also perfectly capable of fun and casual sex, I also like to make sure that we click in bed, without making promises (commitment aka monogamy).

I think this is where I may diverge from many. I don't do deeper BDSM edge play in casual getting to know you sex. I know that for many of the people I date that a) they have difficulty with sex and gender and therefore they need greater trust with sex, thus to them it's a bigger deal with greater intimacy attached to it and b) bdsm (and often coming to grips with being genderqueer/butch is also being introduced to them by someone who *finally* understand that hidden bit they had to hide from their last gf/wife who hated it) is brand new and *very* challenging to their ideas that have always secretly clashed with "don't hurt women" ethos, so they never acted on.

So I think that makes certain acts a far "risker" and "intimate" thing off the bat for them then it does for me. But then I'm also an open book and can easily talk about being an ex sexworker, have a past with sex, drugs and rock and roll (lol tongue in cheek), and I don't find that it requires much emotional "risk" to talk about these things, that are, for many, a big risk to them.

I respect their feelings around that, trust me. I usually date and partner with die hard introverts with brains the size of watermelons who over think everything lol but keep things very close to the chest, though they are sociable.

I do find certain types of introverts are actually more gentle and open with allowing me the space I need to emotionally get to the point of being ok with monogamy. Others, the ones I tend to get kind of freak out by with pressure and feel very choked/squeezed by are the ones who want to start all the romance from the first step. Perhaps that's part of the problem as well. They like discovery through romance, and I'm more of a discovery through humour and frontal lobe kind of person. Someone giving me a bouquet of flowers on the first date will freak me out, not endear me.

Maybe I'm just a shitty romantic, but I think I like to save the deeper feelings and really deeply romantic things for when I can trust someone... And that trust comes in layers and pieces. Being ok with someone taking me out for an ice cream and sitting in the park holding hands is a WAY WAY bigger deal to me than getting-to-know you sex. And I feel really uncomfortable about allowing someone in that far (ice cream and hand holding in the park) before I've had exploratory sex with them first.

Most butches - though not all, obviously or I've never of had a relationship in my life and I've had seven long term ones from the age of 14 until now - don't like this progression because it seems for them, sex is a bigger risk because of the dislike of being touched by people in the first place (the ones I date at least), the trouble they have with trusting people before having sex because of gender issues, and the thought that they *want* romance from the get go.

The femmes I have dated and the femmes I have had sex with and the femmes that openly hit on me are far more sexually forward (probably cause they've had to learn to be with being invisible and all) and far more "let's jump in the fart sack now and see what happens later" and seem to be less concerned about commitment and tend to have the attitude of "if we are the best match for each other, we will find that out naturally and it will be obvious as it goes along" they are more "happy if it turns into a relationship, and it's ok if it doesn't"

But then the femmes I have slept with and dated have all be very *very* extroverted so who knows if that's a consideration as well. May or may not be. They also tend to not have much gender issues with being the owner of a cock. As in, they have one in their head, not just strapping on.

They also have been "gentleman femmes" in the sense of being studs on the inside and feminine on the outside and not into butches as they think that would be sexually same-same.

Again, it's just been my observation. I'm quite happy to be wrong on my anecdotal observations and generalist ideas.

I also tend to meet far more "old school" butches and post modern femmes. So that might have something to do with it as well. The trans guys and transmasculines I've met seem to be a bit less monogamy from the get go as well and a bit more post modern about it all but that could be just that I meet those guys through my friends and kinky events than on line.

Why don't I meet butches that way? At those same events? Cause the butches at those events that are Dominants tend to be married to their primary partner with one or two play subs already and I'm not really up for being a third. I'd much rather just meet someone who'd like a primary partner or monogamus partner (I am fine with either. I know that bends some people's brains but thing about it as being kind of the same as being bisexual but in a poly/mono kind of way. I'm happy in either situation, both are fine to me) than to become another where there is no possibility for a primary relationship.

There was someone, Dapper, but as of last night that's been nixed. But this issue will come up again as it has many times in the past. I really wish there was some kind of way around this issue with people because many of them are really worth while folk that I think are really incredible. But if I feel like my independance is being squelched, my sex drive evaporates completely and I don't want someone touching me. I will actually shrink from it. I get turned off, horribly. If someone gives me my freedom and allows me to slowly make a choice then they become sexier and sexier. It shows me a kind of confidence I find horribly attractive and incredibly sexy.

Kind of like the difference between someone telling me they are intimidated about having sex with me (it happens. Too often) and someone saying "hey, I may not know wtf I'm doing the first few times I try something new, but goddamn after some practice, baby, I'm going to be the best shag you ever had"

Mreow.

But then maybe I just like cocky.

And I'm guessing my wanting to have what I see as freedom to slowly make a choice (as they are!!!) is seen as hurtful Game Playing, just like I can't help feeling my sex drive evaporate by feeling controlled by a stranger.

I dunno, there must be some kind of middle ground.

[imperfect_cupcake]

I can get on the same page with someone if I really like them and we are compatible and the chemistry and all that is there. I will get there if someone can be patient. I WANT the relationship, I just don't want it all at once up in my face after a few conversations, or one date, or having fucked once. It REALLY makes me panic. I don't like the pressure and I have trust issues so I like to take my time and really know what I am getting into. And I absolutely believe that takes TIME.

I wish I was better at being precise these days. I feel very rusty. Yes. That.

And yes, I also feel there is something between "totally casual sex" and "now we are in a committed relationship sex." I call it "getting to know you sex." But I find some people are quite insulted by that notion or see it as some kind of threat or that once their back is turned I'm going to shag two other people, compare and contrast shagging techniques on a score card in six different categories and they will wind up lacking in some way.

Which is kind of bizarre. But I guess people feel what they feel. That's really not the way I approach sex, ever. And I NEVER think of someone else when I'm in bed with someone, therefore it's impossible for me to actually compare two people. And that's a bit of a foreign concept to me anyway. I don't compare people. I don't sit and think about who I was with that was the best kisser ever. That seems kind of ... I dunno... What I did when I was first kissing boys and girls when I was 12.

So I dunno. Maybe there is some way for me to feel not pressured and for them to feel not insecure or threatened? And what would that look like?

[Kelt]

Right off the bat I want to say thanks for the novela, because this is the kind of thing that needs clarification and context. I also need to say that my experiences in the dating world are extremely limited and I don’t believe I’ve ever successfully navigated those waters, so anything I say here is pretty much a theoretical exercise.

I guess that for me dating would be more of a play the field, see what’s out there with no commitment to anything other than getting to know the other person. Courting would be more of a step towards something more significant and that’s where things like sexual boundaries and what’s in the future discussions happen and maybe decisions about whether or not to continue shape up.

IF the above is understood by both parties, huge IF there, then no, I don’t think it would be reasonable to dish out ultimatums, push for commitments, or extended negotiations would apply to the ‘dating’ phase. If the above is not understood it needs to be, because then expectations can be managed. (To be clear I don't think ultimatums are ever appropriate, but I'm answering the original question)

I don’t do, and have no desire to do, casual sex. Neither however would I require some full on commitment before a test drive. I am stone and (not speaking for any other stone) come pre-loaded with a box of boundaries when it comes to the physical. That requires trust above a two date level for me. I do understand that casual sex is pretty common for others and would just have to accept that casual means casual for them and not request limits on that while dating because that’s just dating right? Likely easier said than done, but that is my own stuff to deal with.

The “lesbian” community jump into commitment tendency that Dapper mentions has been a real problem for me and such that I’m pretty gun shy about even getting into anything at all. This may apply to other communities and I’m just unaware. I have ended up in inadvertent relationships when I was very young and had what I thought were friendships morph into something else without being aware of it until after the fact. (I blame myself for missing social cues). I have received an ultimatum very early in the courting stage and it stopped me in my tracks. I’ve been single for a couple of years and don’t see that changing soon.

I don’t know about trends on this front, I only know that I am a butch in no rush, and am at a stage in life where I will not be rushed. I am 53. I have been involved with femmes who were both a dozen years younger than me and a dozen years older than me. I think age differences matter more at the very young end of the scale (20’s) than later.

Sleepybutch has some really good points and if I were ‘in the pool’ so to speak would also spend time figuring out more of this up front.

Mulling all of this over I see some good perspectives here to think about. Might be back, will definitely keep reading.

Thanks for a good thread idea Cupcake!

ETA: Since writing this other posts have come up, so I'll likely be back.

[SleepyButch]

Originally Posted by imperfect_cupcake

So I dunno. Maybe there is some way for me to feel not pressured and for them to feel not insecure or threatened? And what would that look like?

I think the only thing you can do is communicate communicate communicate. I am sure you do this. There are some that do not.

If I know what I'm getting in right away, then I can make up my mind if I want to participate or not.

I think you already kind of answered your own question or how it work if it were you and I dating.

You said this up above:

"Thing is with monogamy and sex, I tend not to have multiple sex partners, it's very very rare I do. However, I don't like making the commitment of promising not to, before I know the person. It doesn't mean I'm going to go sleep with three other people."

If I knew that this, I don't think I'd be threatened or insecure. I guess it depends on how much you want to share about this with someone new.

ETA if someone doesn't accept you for wanting or not wanting something, are they really worth your time in the long run?

[imperfect_cupcake]

If I knew that this, I don't think I'd be threatened or insecure. I guess it depends on how much you want to share about this with someone new.

Hmn. Tricky. I don't know. The last time I dated someone I quite liked neither of us was asking for monogamy off the bat because we were both the same about it. I told her on the first date that I didn't mind who she dated or slept with and she didn't have to tell me about it unless she wanted to talk to me as a friend about it (which she did. She had an issue and a bad date and wanted to tell me and I listened and we joked. Which actually made me feel closer and safer with her).

After we had been dating a while, we both decided we would like to know if the other person was sleeping with anyone else. She had never done this before and was nervous about it so I said "let's role play it! You tell me and I'll be me!"
We laughed and joked our way through the role play and she felt much better about it.

But about four months along she wanted to meet someone "for sex or for a date, date. Like proper romantic date?"
"Proper romantic date"
And I knew at that point we were at different stages and wanted different things, for now. So I bowed out. And it busted me to do it. If she had been meeting someone for a fun casual sex date, I would have felt jealous but nothing I couldn't deal with. Her wanting to meet someone to romance, made me scared and I knew I couldn't do it.
She was deeply upset with me breaking things off and didn't understand. I said that we were at different points and I wouldn't be able to handle it and it would affect us both. But she was welcome to come back at anytime in the future should she choose because I still thought she was the bees knees.
No, apparently, for her, if you ring the bell, it's done.

Dating is hard. I'm not really a big fan of it.

So the possibility of me sleeping with someone would be there. Just highly unlikely. And if I *had* slept with someone while I was dating her, it would have been very casual and of little consequence to how I felt about her or what we were doing. But if someone fell in my lap and said "hey! Just passing through!" I might have. I was dating, and if I'm dating, I am not in a couple. I'm not ready to answer to someone just yet, even though I really, really like them. Just like I don't want to have to explain why I'm going on a holiday with friends if I'm dating someone, or why I didn't call last night. They don't have to check with me to go bowling with mates and if they don't call me at 10pm for a chat (say it's something we might often do) they don't have to text and apologise.

I think the word "expectations" is something I like to keep on very close to nil, or quite low when dating.

Perhaps that's key to it?

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by imperfect_cupcake

I'm suspecting that most people run on a set of rules. Or perhaps flexibility within those rules. But usually people don't deviate off a set of rules unless they have context and reason. Which is why I gave an annoyingly long post.

I'm also used to having longer posts as I'm one of those annoying fuckers that partook in the theory threads. I'm blunt, but I'm totally a context whore. Context can change the colour of a picture completely.

Apologies for my details. I'm not good at fluffy threads. I'm pretty damn cerebral.

Originally Posted by imperfect_cupcake

For those who are confused, I apologise. I like context heavy, meaty discussions with lots of things to think about in it. I'm not really a "here's a brief question, Gimmie your drive by answer" kinda thread gal. In 2010 these kinds of threads were common and why I kept going to forums. I'm not a simple question/simple answer kind of gal. I like deconstruction and examination. Apologies. Perhaps this kind of discussion is really out of place, then.

Don't you DARE apologize for wanting to have a theoretical discussion on this site! Many of us thirst for those discussions that were the norm on butch-femme.com and here when this site first started. Where everyone who enjoys those discussions have gone (or maybe where the people who initiates those types of discussion have gone), I don't know.

To answer the question. What you are presenting as a way to approach dating (the person who wants to feel things out and not commit right away), seems very healthy to me. A person who is so fast to commit because you are so perfect for them, yet would be willing to walk away if you aren't ready for that level of commitment, would make me think that their desire ("need") to be in a relationship trumps their desire to be with the right person.

Big red flag right there my dear!

You asked about our own approach. It depends on how far the person and I are apart from what we are looking for. If I know I am looking for a long term relationship, a life partner, and the person I am dating is not looking for that at all, but is only looking for a casual thing, then I probably wouldn't date them. Or, I might and just have a casual thing, while I am still looking to find a partner who wants the long term thing.

However, if I met someone who was open to a long term partner if they found the right person, but was not in a rush I would see what happened if I really like them. (your example). Why wouldn't I?

So, it comes down to how close the person is to what I am looking for and if they are going in the same direction as me.

I hope this isn't a real life scenario. This person is putting you in an unfair position if they are saying they will leave if you don't commit immediately. Personally, with the little time you have spent together, I think it is a red flag. If they knew they wanted a commitment right away from someone, that should be talked about right up front. Then you may have decided to not date.

On the other hand, this jumping into monogamy in the "lesbian" community is such the norm, the person may not even thought to bring it up.