Here come the lesbians, here come the leaping lesbians...

For the love of lesbians** lets leap....

Some lesbians like to do it groups...with pants on their heads


Some like to do it in pairs


Some leap solo


Whether you favour the more traditional leap...


or the 'bomb'...


if it makes you light-headed...


Whatever you do don't jump ship, just keep on leaping!







**no lesbians of any ID were hurt in the making of this post.


I hope no-one is offended by a little levity in amongst the more serious discussion................normal service can now resumed.

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by JustJo

Hi Kobi,

I understand your point of view and appreciate your post. I am also a fan of common courtesy....which is why you'll rarely hear me telling anyone else what they should do, say, be, or how they should conduct themselves.

Here's the thing for me....and, yes, it ties in to feminism and our history if you'll bear with me.

As a woman, I have been told all of my life how I should behave, what I should value, how I should think, how I should look, etc. Who I was, was not acceptable to the larger society. I should conform, and accept the values of others and....for lack of a better summary....be a good girl.

When I come into BFP, which is supposed to be OUR space, where we can be ourselves, and get policed by other members.....I have an issue.

If I want to be silly or frivilous or serious or intellectual or pissed off is up to me. It is not up to anyone else.

There is another thread (or two) devoted to the subject of the Butch Voices conference. I am not in there leaping and joking. I have stayed out, out of simple respect, for a few reasons.

1. I'm not butch
2. I've never attended Butch Voices
3. I don't know any of the people involved
4. I don't know any of the history involved

I may go read, but I probably won't comment. And I certainly won't go be silly in that thread.

However, this thread started with a light-hearted tone. Yes, some serious conversations evolved, and I'm all for that. But I resent, like hell, being smacked for being light-hearted in a thread that was intended to be.

I also resent, like hell, being told how to behave by anyone.

If I have violated the TOS, and a moderator points it out to me, then I will acknowledge, apologize and do my damndest not to do it again. I also follow the laws of the larger society. I don't steal. I don't hit people. I don't even lie on my tax return. Heck, I don't even roll through stop signs. I'm a "rulester", as an old-co-worker named me.

I was raised by a mother that we called, among other things "the rabid feminist." I was not allowed to own a Barbie doll because they were tools of the oppressors. I was not allowed to take Home Economics (even though I loved the subject) or Typing in school because they were the means used to subjugate women. Get the feel for it?

Once again, who I was was not acceptable.

I have never been acceptable...not to the male-dominated conservative society that thought I should get married, have babies and blah blah blah (I'm almost 50....so those messages were alive and well).

I was not acceptable to the andro-lesbians of the 70s because of my inherent femininity.

Here's my personal feminism....and it took me a long damn time to come to....I am just fine. I am acceptable to me. Whether I have sex and relationships with men, or women, or no one at all....that's up to me. If I am intellectual and serious or goofy and frivilous....that's up to me. If I am aggressive, passive, assertive or indifferent....that's up to me.

I do not always (okay, almost never) spout the politically correct vernacular. I'm not a politically correct person. And that's up to me, too.

I am tired of people telling other people how to be....whether we do it in Butch Voices or other conferences, online, in our laws, or by declaring war on other countries.

Maybe I'm getting old and fed up (in fact, I'm sure I am)....but I am sick and tired of it. We do it all the time. We constantly message others.....don't think like that, don't talk like that, don't dress like that, don't use those words, use these words, be this way, call yourself this, don't vote like that, vote like this, believe what I believe, don't think for yourself........BLECH!

When we start behaving with each other the way the larger society has behaved towards us....by judging, censoring and shutting people down....then I'm going to do a big ass, polka-dot clad cannonball in the middle of it.

And that's up to me too. *end rant*

With all due respect Jo, I am a woman too. I, too, have been subjected to many of the same issues as you. We are products of the same era and similar breeding.

I keep trying my best to not reenact the same garbarge that was thrust upon me. I didnt like when it was done to me and I have no desire to do it to others.

However, I have no qualms about speaking to what I see as common courtesy and respect. We can respectfully agree to disagree. Neither of us has the right or need, I hope, to be disagreeable.

And, I am not and will not be your or anyone else's punching bag of the day.

End of pseudo-rant.

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by Kobi

With all due respect Jo, I am a woman too. I, too, have been subjected to many of the same issues as you. We are products of the same era and similar breeding.

I keep trying my best to not reenact the same garbarge that was thrust upon me. I didnt like when it was done to me and I have no desire to do it to others.

However, I have no qualms about speaking to what I see as common courtesy and respect. We can respectfully agree to disagree. Neither of us has the right or need, I hope, to be disagreeable.

And, I am not and will not be your or anyone else's punching bag of the day.

End of pseudo-rant.

Then we are in the same boat and, for the record, I don't use people as punching bags. I don't even use punching bags as punching bags. I simply speak my own mind, and invite you and everyone else to do the same.

[tapu]

How 'bout those Red Sox, huh?

[Dreams]

Originally Posted by tapu

How 'bout those Red Sox, huh?

the dodgers look good this season...

[Gayla]

Originally Posted by tapu

How 'bout those Red Sox, huh?

tapu - Did you mean this to be as disrespectful as it comes across to me?

Granted, I've yet to finish my first cup of tea for the day but it just seems to be intentionally pokey.

[christie]

Jo -

I was going to respond to you in a PM as to not further derail, but it seems now this has become a conversation/topic for discussion.

I suppose you can call me a lot of things, but first and foremost, I tend to be respectful and kind to people. I find that moving thru the world is a lot easier if I treat people as I wish to be treated as opposed to quid pro quo.

I found (and still find) the silliness to be disrespectful. I didn't smack you on the hand or attempt to moderate. I simply identified a behavior that I see replicated time and time again that feels disrespectful and silencing TO ME.

Maybe I have some personal shit surrounding why to interrupt a conversation feels disrespectful - and I own that just as you have your stuff surrounding why you are offended by my comments on yours and tapu's posts. Maybe the two loves of my life (Jess and Bratboy) are both some kinda ADD and seem to CONSTANTLY interrupt me when I speak. We are both entitled to those feelings. If I am a little hypersensitive, then I do apologize; however, I don't think I was being overly sensitive to it based on the personal notes I got about my post. That's not me dragging someone into this, its me just saying, "Hey - I wasn't the only one."

Since this thread is not in the fluff category, I don't take it to be lighthearted, unless at the time, it is. In fact, until Kobi started a new thread (yesterday, maybe?) I do believe it was the only active thread in the Lesbian Zone.

Additionally, I had no clue there was another thread about the BV issues - I don't often read all the threads unless a new one happens to catch my eye on the front page.

I didn't see the conversations as being solely about BV. Honestly, the only time butch issues come into play for me is when they affect Jess. For the most part, I stay out of them, more because I am weary of "butch" being made less than or a stopping point on the road to male/trans. My tolerance for the pushing aside the butches in our online communities (feeding into real-time communities) is about nil.

I saw a couple of different issues being discussed more than BV and how they spend their money. I saw butches talking about how changing the venacular felt silencing and erasing. I saw conversations about why it matters if a transman heads up a group that was supposed to be about butches and the many faces of butch.

We can agree to disagree on your intent, but I would like to mention that if your intent was because you were "sick to fucking death of folks trying to define others" (not a precise quote) then why not just say that? I share your feeling of being sick to fucking death of labels and the ensuing discussions, interpretation of qualifiers, etc. I just chose not to engage in those conversations.

But, when those conversations are taking place in a thread I subscribe to, I usually don't get involved because I am liable to post that I am sick of them and that would be just as silencing and disrespectful to folks as I feel like the silly derails are...

I hope this makes it more clear for you that, like a whole lotta other folks contributing here, I saw something that felt disrespectful and simply pointed it out. I'm not sure what makes it wrong for me to do so and yet not others?

If you would like, we can continue this in PM.

[JustJo]

Hi Christie,

I appreciate you coming back in to clarify. I put my notes in purple to respond....because it just seems easier.

Originally Posted by christie0918

Jo -

I was going to respond to you in a PM as to not further derail, but it seems now this has become a conversation/topic for discussion.

I suppose you can call me a lot of things, but first and foremost, I tend to be respectful and kind to people. I find that moving thru the world is a lot easier if I treat people as I wish to be treated as opposed to quid pro quo.

I didn't call you anything negative, nor would I. I don't know you and don't have any experience in dealing with you at all. For me to speak negatively of a person takes a long history of negative experiences....not just a disagreement.

And, I agree. I try very hard to allow others to be themselves, and simply ask that they treat me the same way.

I found (and still find) the silliness to be disrespectful. I didn't smack you on the hand or attempt to moderate. I simply identified a behavior that I see replicated time and time again that feels disrespectful and silencing TO ME.

Okay....it felt like a smack on the hand, but if you say that you didn't mean it that way, then I can accept that.

Maybe I have some personal shit surrounding why to interrupt a conversation feels disrespectful - and I own that just as you have your stuff surrounding why you are offended by my comments on yours and tapu's posts. Maybe the two loves of my life (Jess and Bratboy) are both some kinda ADD and seem to CONSTANTLY interrupt me when I speak. We are both entitled to those feelings. If I am a little hypersensitive, then I do apologize; however, I don't think I was being overly sensitive to it based on the personal notes I got about my post. That's not me dragging someone into this, its me just saying, "Hey - I wasn't the only one."

I'm sure that there are many folks on both sides of the issues. Not to drag others into this...but I had many reps and PMs saying thank you as well. I think we can probably assume that we have a variety of opinions going on here since we have a variety of people here.

Since this thread is not in the fluff category, I don't take it to be lighthearted, unless at the time, it is. In fact, until Kobi started a new thread (yesterday, maybe?) I do believe it was the only active thread in the Lesbian Zone.

Additionally, I had no clue there was another thread about the BV issues - I don't often read all the threads unless a new one happens to catch my eye on the front page.

I'm pretty sure that there is one specifically about BV 2011 (by that name) and another that, I think, Medusa started about these kinds of conferences in general. Personally, I think that the conversation is important - and I never objected to it being here. I simply objected to the messaging that one conversation was "okay" and the other wasn't.

To me, that feels like policing.

I didn't see the conversations as being solely about BV. Honestly, the only time butch issues come into play for me is when they affect Jess. For the most part, I stay out of them, more because I am weary of "butch" being made less than or a stopping point on the road to male/trans. My tolerance for the pushing aside the butches in our online communities (feeding into real-time communities) is about nil.

Agreed. We're in the same boat on this.

I saw a couple of different issues being discussed more than BV and how they spend their money. I saw butches talking about how changing the venacular felt silencing and erasing. I saw conversations about why it matters if a transman heads up a group that was supposed to be about butches and the many faces of butch.

We can agree to disagree on your intent, but I would like to mention that if your intent was because you were "sick to fucking death of folks trying to define others" (not a precise quote) then why not just say that? I share your feeling of being sick to fucking death of labels and the ensuing discussions, interpretation of qualifiers, etc. I just chose not to engage in those conversations.

I didn't come in straight away and say "I'm sick to fucking death" because at the time of my original posting, that button hadn't been pushed. I was responding to a light-hearted post, in what started as a light-hearted thread. I didn't object to the heavier conversation, even though I personally believe it might fit better in another place, because I don't police people. I'm not a moderator. This isn't my site. This isn't even my thread.

And, I do engage in those conversations because I think it must be said. I see us (the BFP online community) doing an awful lot of the same behavior that we complain about the larger community doing to us. This bothers me. If we fragment and "other" parts of this community, we only weaken ourselves and contribute to the negative messaging that, no doubt, many of us have experienced for a very long time.

But, when those conversations are taking place in a thread I subscribe to, I usually don't get involved because I am liable to post that I am sick of them and that would be just as silencing and disrespectful to folks as I feel like the silly derails are...

Okay....this is a silencing statement - and I'm going to call you out on it. So, by what you're saying here...posting that I am sick of them is silencing and disrespectful, so I shouldn't do that. And "silly derails" are also silencing and disrespectful, so I shouldn't do that. So....what? I should toe the line and agree with everyone, or shut up? No thank you.

Do you see that what you're saying here is either that I should agree with everyone and go along entirely in the same vein or be quiet? Do you see how that's the very thing that I am objecting to?

I hope this makes it more clear for you that, like a whole lotta other folks contributing here, I saw something that felt disrespectful and simply pointed it out. I'm not sure what makes it wrong for me to do so and yet not others?

Christie....you can do what you like. You can say what you like. I'm not telling you to go along or be quiet. I'm not asking you to agree with me. Please feel free to post whatever you want to post. I will do the same. I'm not even asking you to like it, or me.

I objected to what you said. That means I disagreed with you. I can do that. And you can disagree with me too. And, just because....I'd really appreciate it if you'd stop with the "whole lotta other folks" thing. This isn't a popularity contest. This is a bunch of individuals speaking their minds. I'm not going to come in and recite how many PMs and reps I got. That isn't really the point, is it?

If you would like, we can continue this in PM.

I'm not sure how to say this to be really clear but ....what it boils down to for me....you are absolutely welcome to say whatever you like, even when you're disagreeing with me. I'll do the same. And that's truly okay with me.

[tapu]

Originally Posted by Gayla

tapu - Did you mean this to be as disrespectful as it comes across to me?

Granted, I've yet to finish my first cup of tea for the day but it just seems to be intentionally pokey.

I am not used to the heightened fragility that pervades the threads. I haven't suffered enough, or I'm not holding over enough past suffering now. I've been encouraged to post as I do--that at least it's interesting and different--but it does seem that an awful lot of people are getting hurt rather than just going with it.

There's an honest answer. I haven't decided if I'll stick with it or leave here. I'm hoping to be able to stick with it, but it's a little nerve-wracking.

[*Anya*]

I try very hard to only use "I" statements on the planet, I get less flack that way. Though I had even been misunderstood when I posted something that I read as completely positive.

That said, I feel I must comment and let the chips fall where they may.

For some reason, this thread as well as the other Lesbian thread, is pushing a lot of our buttons. I think we can all agree that it is a subject near and dear to our hearts.

I think that many of us can agree that the fact that there are so many former lesbians (I can hear the shit now for saying former but for me, if you were a woman-identified woman, not on T, loving and having sex with women, to ME, that is the definition of a lesbian) transitioning stirs up lots of feelings for us.

Those of you that do not agree with my definition, no problem, you do not need to agree with me. It is simply my opinion and perception. Yours may be different. You can disagree but do not attack me for seeing it differently than you do.

Many of may feel negated (I do sometimes). Many of us feel like our herstory is being negated (I do sometimes) and underneath all of the feelings that get stirred up is FOR ME and I speak for myself here is:

Fear and Anxiety.

When I feel fearful and anxious, it is much easier for me to get angry. Anger makes me feel much stronger than fear does.

I read lots of things on these threads that I do not agree with. I try really hard to not be reactive but to be thoughtful to try to figure out why something is bothering me.

We owe that to each other don't we? We are all lesbians here are we not, commenting on lesbian issues? We do not have to agree but we do have to be polite, respectful and thoughtful when we read something that hits us wrong or makes us upset.

Out in the world people give us shit all day long for who and what we are and for what we believe. I really do not want to do that to my Lesbian sisters, whether you are butch or femme and I hope everyone can take a step back so that we can continue to learn from each other.

[clay]

Originally Posted by Anya/Georgia

I try very hard to only use "I" statements on the planet, I get less flack that way. Though I had even been misunderstood when I posted something that I read as completely positive.

That said, I feel I must comment and let the chips fall where they may.

For some reason, this thread as well as the other Lesbian thread, is pushing a lot of our buttons. I think we can all agree that it is a subject near and dear to our hearts.

I think that many of us can agree that the fact that there are so many former lesbians (I can hear the shit now for saying former but for me, if you were a woman-identified woman, not on T, loving and having sex with women, to ME, that is the definition of a lesbian) transitioning stirs up lots of feelings for us.

Those of you that do not agree with my definition, no problem, you do not need to agree with me. It is simply my opinion and perception. Yours may be different. You can disagree but do not attack me for seeing it differently than you do.

Many of may feel negated (I do sometimes). Many of us feel like our herstory is being negated (I do sometimes) and underneath all of the feelings that get stirred up is FOR ME and I speak for myself here is:

Fear and Anxiety.

When I feel fearful and anxious, it is much easier for me to get angry. Anger makes me feel much stronger than fear does.

I read lots of things on these threads that I do not agree with. I try really hard to not be reactive but to be thoughtful to try to figure out why something is bothering me.

We owe that to each other don't we? We are all lesbians here are we not, commenting on lesbian issues? We do not have to agree but we do have to be polite, respectful and thoughtful when we read something that hits us wrong or makes us upset.

Out in the world people give us shit all day long for who and what we are and for what we believe. I really do not want to do that to my Lesbian sisters, whether you are butch or femme and I hope everyone can take a step back so that we can continue to learn from each other.

What she said!!! I totally agree!!!

[Gayla]

Originally Posted by tapu

I am not used to the heightened fragility that pervades the threads. I haven't suffered enough, or I'm not holding over enough past suffering now. I've been encouraged to post as I do--that at least it's interesting and different--but it does seem that an awful lot of people are getting hurt rather than just going with it.

There's an honest answer. I haven't decided if I'll stick with it or leave here. I'm hoping to be able to stick with it, but it's a little nerve-wracking.

I thought my question was fairly direct and, honestly, I was hoping for a direct answer. If your intention was not to be disrespectful and I just, as I've been told in multiple rep comments, "misunderstood", then I would hope you would say that.

I find your comment about the fragility of members here to be deflective and dismissive of the fact that some people enjoy serious discussions and don't feel the need to just couch everything in humor.

One of the great things about this community is that there is room here for everyone, in whatever way they like to participate, as long as it's done in a respectful manner. Poking at folks, throwing the blame back at them and then threatening to flounce out, doesn't really come across as respectful.

Originally Posted by Anya/Georgia

I try very hard to only use "I" statements on the planet, I get less flack that way. Though I had even been misunderstood when I posted something that I read as completely positive.

That said, I feel I must comment and let the chips fall where they may.

For some reason, this thread as well as the other Lesbian thread, is pushing a lot of our buttons. I think we can all agree that it is a subject near and dear to our hearts.

I think that many of us can agree that the fact that there are so many former lesbians (I can hear the shit now for saying former but for me, if you were a woman-identified woman, not on T, loving and having sex with women, to ME, that is the definition of a lesbian) transitioning stirs up lots of feelings for us.

Those of you that do not agree with my definition, no problem, you do not need to agree with me. It is simply my opinion and perception. Yours may be different. You can disagree but do not attack me for seeing it differently than you do.

Many of may feel negated (I do sometimes). Many of us feel like our herstory is being negated (I do sometimes) and underneath all of the feelings that get stirred up is FOR ME and I speak for myself here is:

Fear and Anxiety.

When I feel fearful and anxious, it is much easier for me to get angry. Anger makes me feel much stronger than fear does.

I read lots of things on these threads that I do not agree with. I try really hard to not be reactive but to be thoughtful to try to figure out why something is bothering me.

We owe that to each other don't we? We are all lesbians here are we not, commenting on lesbian issues? We do not have to agree but we do have to be polite, respectful and thoughtful when we read something that hits us wrong or makes us upset.

Out in the world people give us shit all day long for who and what we are and for what we believe. I really do not want to do that to my Lesbian sisters, whether you are butch or femme and I hope everyone can take a step back so that we can continue to learn from each other.

, nay make that A Great Post!

[tapu]

Originally Posted by Gayla

I thought my question was fairly direct and, honestly, I was hoping for a direct answer. If your intention was not to be disrespectful and I just, as I've been told in multiple rep comments, "misunderstood", then I would hope you would say that.

I find your comment about the fragility of members here to be deflective and dismissive of the fact that some people enjoy serious discussions and don't feel the need to just couch everything in humor.

One of the great things about this community is that there is room here for everyone, in whatever way they like to participate, as long as it's done in a respectful manner. Poking at folks, throwing the blame back at them and then threatening to flounce out, doesn't really come across as respectful.

Okay. Well, I don't feel like I can say anything more about that.

[OS Butch]

Originally Posted by tapu

How 'bout those Red Sox, huh?

Booooo!!!! How about those Nats..... Ok maybe not.

[Chancie]

Does it always end up being about the butches?

[Martina]

i had made some heartfelt angst-ridden comment before the lightness ensued and did do a double take. But that happens all the time. And some of the participants i noted were (to me) trusted members. So i just let it go. i don't feel that reacting to that makes me someone with heightened sensitivities. i didn't respond (though i did react) because i do not think we can manage people's participation to the degree that at least i would sometimes want.

On a music site i have been part of for many years, this sort of thing is constant. And then when you call people on it -- usually young bio men -- the ensuing uproar makes it so not worth it. Talk about sensitive. God the number of times i have been called politically correct over there.

i guess it's partly the thread title, etc. i don't know.

One comment i have about the BV thing -- and this is entirely frivolous on my part -- is how glad i am that i am not involved. i think it may be productive discord, but it's just not worth it to me. i am glad there are young people and more political people who are willing to surrender some of their peace of mind to fight these battles. i am not right now.

[dark_crystal]

Originally Posted by Anya/Georgia

I try very hard to only use "I" statements on the planet, I get less flack that way. Though I had even been misunderstood when I posted something that I read as completely positive.

i know what you mean- before i post anything in any thread that is not specifically "fluff," i quintuple-check every single word for anything that anyone might possibly be offended by.

then, i worry and worry about it and half the time find myself rushing back to the computer hoping it hasn't been 30 minutes yet and i can still edit

even taking these precautions, i've landed in hot water a few times and there is at least one of those incidents i STILL don't understand

i am not sure what it is. even going into a board meeting with all five of my bosses i wouldn't get as anxious as i do posting in "serious" threads

[tapu]

Originally Posted by dark_crystal

i know what you mean- before i post anything in any thread that is not specifically "fluff," i quintuple-check every single word for anything that anyone might possibly be offended by.

then, i worry and worry about it and half the time find myself rushing back to the computer hoping it hasn't been 30 minutes yet and i can still edit

even taking these precautions, i've landed in hot water a few times and there is at least one of those incidents i STILL don't understand

i am not sure what it is. even going into a board meeting with all five of my bosses i wouldn't get as anxious as i do posting in "serious" threads

It's hard to say anything of value under that kind of pressure or social risk. I either can't or won't monitor myself to that extent. Not sure what to do with that.

[BullDog]

I've been quite baffled. To me discussing what's going on with BV in here was quite natural, since it is a topic of interest to butch women, lesbians and our partners, friends and allies. I personally think of the Lesbian Zone that way- open to whatever lesbians and our friends are interested in talking about. I didn't care for being told it shouldn't be discussed here.

However the fluffiness and leaping certainly seems appropriate to me too and actually more in keeping with the original intent of the thread.

To those who don't want a serious discussion interrupted, I would think it would be more appropriate to voice those concerns in a thread dedicated to that specific serious discussion than here. That's just my opinion of course.

For threads not specifically devoted to one defined topic I don't see why multiple conversations can't be going on at the same time.