Here come the lesbians, here come the leaping lesbians...

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by JustJo

Hi Kobi,

I understand your point of view and appreciate your post. I am also a fan of common courtesy....which is why you'll rarely hear me telling anyone else what they should do, say, be, or how they should conduct themselves.

Here's the thing for me....and, yes, it ties in to feminism and our history if you'll bear with me.

As a woman, I have been told all of my life how I should behave, what I should value, how I should think, how I should look, etc. Who I was, was not acceptable to the larger society. I should conform, and accept the values of others and....for lack of a better summary....be a good girl.

When I come into BFP, which is supposed to be OUR space, where we can be ourselves, and get policed by other members.....I have an issue.

If I want to be silly or frivilous or serious or intellectual or pissed off is up to me. It is not up to anyone else.

There is another thread (or two) devoted to the subject of the Butch Voices conference. I am not in there leaping and joking. I have stayed out, out of simple respect, for a few reasons.

1. I'm not butch
2. I've never attended Butch Voices
3. I don't know any of the people involved
4. I don't know any of the history involved

I may go read, but I probably won't comment. And I certainly won't go be silly in that thread.

However, this thread started with a light-hearted tone. Yes, some serious conversations evolved, and I'm all for that. But I resent, like hell, being smacked for being light-hearted in a thread that was intended to be.

I also resent, like hell, being told how to behave by anyone.

If I have violated the TOS, and a moderator points it out to me, then I will acknowledge, apologize and do my damndest not to do it again. I also follow the laws of the larger society. I don't steal. I don't hit people. I don't even lie on my tax return. Heck, I don't even roll through stop signs. I'm a "rulester", as an old-co-worker named me.

I was raised by a mother that we called, among other things "the rabid feminist." I was not allowed to own a Barbie doll because they were tools of the oppressors. I was not allowed to take Home Economics (even though I loved the subject) or Typing in school because they were the means used to subjugate women. Get the feel for it?

Once again, who I was was not acceptable.

I have never been acceptable...not to the male-dominated conservative society that thought I should get married, have babies and blah blah blah (I'm almost 50....so those messages were alive and well).

I was not acceptable to the andro-lesbians of the 70s because of my inherent femininity.

Here's my personal feminism....and it took me a long damn time to come to....I am just fine. I am acceptable to me. Whether I have sex and relationships with men, or women, or no one at all....that's up to me. If I am intellectual and serious or goofy and frivilous....that's up to me. If I am aggressive, passive, assertive or indifferent....that's up to me.

I do not always (okay, almost never) spout the politically correct vernacular. I'm not a politically correct person. And that's up to me, too.

I am tired of people telling other people how to be....whether we do it in Butch Voices or other conferences, online, in our laws, or by declaring war on other countries.

Maybe I'm getting old and fed up (in fact, I'm sure I am)....but I am sick and tired of it. We do it all the time. We constantly message others.....don't think like that, don't talk like that, don't dress like that, don't use those words, use these words, be this way, call yourself this, don't vote like that, vote like this, believe what I believe, don't think for yourself........BLECH!

When we start behaving with each other the way the larger society has behaved towards us....by judging, censoring and shutting people down....then I'm going to do a big ass, polka-dot clad cannonball in the middle of it.

And that's up to me too. *end rant*

With all due respect Jo, I am a woman too. I, too, have been subjected to many of the same issues as you. We are products of the same era and similar breeding.

I keep trying my best to not reenact the same garbarge that was thrust upon me. I didnt like when it was done to me and I have no desire to do it to others.

However, I have no qualms about speaking to what I see as common courtesy and respect. We can respectfully agree to disagree. Neither of us has the right or need, I hope, to be disagreeable.

And, I am not and will not be your or anyone else's punching bag of the day.

End of pseudo-rant.

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by Kobi

With all due respect Jo, I am a woman too. I, too, have been subjected to many of the same issues as you. We are products of the same era and similar breeding.

I keep trying my best to not reenact the same garbarge that was thrust upon me. I didnt like when it was done to me and I have no desire to do it to others.

However, I have no qualms about speaking to what I see as common courtesy and respect. We can respectfully agree to disagree. Neither of us has the right or need, I hope, to be disagreeable.

And, I am not and will not be your or anyone else's punching bag of the day.

End of pseudo-rant.

Then we are in the same boat and, for the record, I don't use people as punching bags. I don't even use punching bags as punching bags. I simply speak my own mind, and invite you and everyone else to do the same.

[tapu]

How 'bout those Red Sox, huh?

[Dreams]

Originally Posted by tapu

How 'bout those Red Sox, huh?

the dodgers look good this season...

[Gayla]

Originally Posted by tapu

How 'bout those Red Sox, huh?

tapu - Did you mean this to be as disrespectful as it comes across to me?

Granted, I've yet to finish my first cup of tea for the day but it just seems to be intentionally pokey.

[tapu]

Originally Posted by Gayla

tapu - Did you mean this to be as disrespectful as it comes across to me?

Granted, I've yet to finish my first cup of tea for the day but it just seems to be intentionally pokey.

I am not used to the heightened fragility that pervades the threads. I haven't suffered enough, or I'm not holding over enough past suffering now. I've been encouraged to post as I do--that at least it's interesting and different--but it does seem that an awful lot of people are getting hurt rather than just going with it.

There's an honest answer. I haven't decided if I'll stick with it or leave here. I'm hoping to be able to stick with it, but it's a little nerve-wracking.

[*Anya*]

I try very hard to only use "I" statements on the planet, I get less flack that way. Though I had even been misunderstood when I posted something that I read as completely positive.

That said, I feel I must comment and let the chips fall where they may.

For some reason, this thread as well as the other Lesbian thread, is pushing a lot of our buttons. I think we can all agree that it is a subject near and dear to our hearts.

I think that many of us can agree that the fact that there are so many former lesbians (I can hear the shit now for saying former but for me, if you were a woman-identified woman, not on T, loving and having sex with women, to ME, that is the definition of a lesbian) transitioning stirs up lots of feelings for us.

Those of you that do not agree with my definition, no problem, you do not need to agree with me. It is simply my opinion and perception. Yours may be different. You can disagree but do not attack me for seeing it differently than you do.

Many of may feel negated (I do sometimes). Many of us feel like our herstory is being negated (I do sometimes) and underneath all of the feelings that get stirred up is FOR ME and I speak for myself here is:

Fear and Anxiety.

When I feel fearful and anxious, it is much easier for me to get angry. Anger makes me feel much stronger than fear does.

I read lots of things on these threads that I do not agree with. I try really hard to not be reactive but to be thoughtful to try to figure out why something is bothering me.

We owe that to each other don't we? We are all lesbians here are we not, commenting on lesbian issues? We do not have to agree but we do have to be polite, respectful and thoughtful when we read something that hits us wrong or makes us upset.

Out in the world people give us shit all day long for who and what we are and for what we believe. I really do not want to do that to my Lesbian sisters, whether you are butch or femme and I hope everyone can take a step back so that we can continue to learn from each other.

[clay]

Originally Posted by Anya/Georgia

I try very hard to only use "I" statements on the planet, I get less flack that way. Though I had even been misunderstood when I posted something that I read as completely positive.

That said, I feel I must comment and let the chips fall where they may.

For some reason, this thread as well as the other Lesbian thread, is pushing a lot of our buttons. I think we can all agree that it is a subject near and dear to our hearts.

I think that many of us can agree that the fact that there are so many former lesbians (I can hear the shit now for saying former but for me, if you were a woman-identified woman, not on T, loving and having sex with women, to ME, that is the definition of a lesbian) transitioning stirs up lots of feelings for us.

Those of you that do not agree with my definition, no problem, you do not need to agree with me. It is simply my opinion and perception. Yours may be different. You can disagree but do not attack me for seeing it differently than you do.

Many of may feel negated (I do sometimes). Many of us feel like our herstory is being negated (I do sometimes) and underneath all of the feelings that get stirred up is FOR ME and I speak for myself here is:

Fear and Anxiety.

When I feel fearful and anxious, it is much easier for me to get angry. Anger makes me feel much stronger than fear does.

I read lots of things on these threads that I do not agree with. I try really hard to not be reactive but to be thoughtful to try to figure out why something is bothering me.

We owe that to each other don't we? We are all lesbians here are we not, commenting on lesbian issues? We do not have to agree but we do have to be polite, respectful and thoughtful when we read something that hits us wrong or makes us upset.

Out in the world people give us shit all day long for who and what we are and for what we believe. I really do not want to do that to my Lesbian sisters, whether you are butch or femme and I hope everyone can take a step back so that we can continue to learn from each other.

What she said!!! I totally agree!!!

Originally Posted by Anya/Georgia

I try very hard to only use "I" statements on the planet, I get less flack that way. Though I had even been misunderstood when I posted something that I read as completely positive.

That said, I feel I must comment and let the chips fall where they may.

For some reason, this thread as well as the other Lesbian thread, is pushing a lot of our buttons. I think we can all agree that it is a subject near and dear to our hearts.

I think that many of us can agree that the fact that there are so many former lesbians (I can hear the shit now for saying former but for me, if you were a woman-identified woman, not on T, loving and having sex with women, to ME, that is the definition of a lesbian) transitioning stirs up lots of feelings for us.

Those of you that do not agree with my definition, no problem, you do not need to agree with me. It is simply my opinion and perception. Yours may be different. You can disagree but do not attack me for seeing it differently than you do.

Many of may feel negated (I do sometimes). Many of us feel like our herstory is being negated (I do sometimes) and underneath all of the feelings that get stirred up is FOR ME and I speak for myself here is:

Fear and Anxiety.

When I feel fearful and anxious, it is much easier for me to get angry. Anger makes me feel much stronger than fear does.

I read lots of things on these threads that I do not agree with. I try really hard to not be reactive but to be thoughtful to try to figure out why something is bothering me.

We owe that to each other don't we? We are all lesbians here are we not, commenting on lesbian issues? We do not have to agree but we do have to be polite, respectful and thoughtful when we read something that hits us wrong or makes us upset.

Out in the world people give us shit all day long for who and what we are and for what we believe. I really do not want to do that to my Lesbian sisters, whether you are butch or femme and I hope everyone can take a step back so that we can continue to learn from each other.

, nay make that A Great Post!

[Gayla]

Originally Posted by tapu

I am not used to the heightened fragility that pervades the threads. I haven't suffered enough, or I'm not holding over enough past suffering now. I've been encouraged to post as I do--that at least it's interesting and different--but it does seem that an awful lot of people are getting hurt rather than just going with it.

There's an honest answer. I haven't decided if I'll stick with it or leave here. I'm hoping to be able to stick with it, but it's a little nerve-wracking.

I thought my question was fairly direct and, honestly, I was hoping for a direct answer. If your intention was not to be disrespectful and I just, as I've been told in multiple rep comments, "misunderstood", then I would hope you would say that.

I find your comment about the fragility of members here to be deflective and dismissive of the fact that some people enjoy serious discussions and don't feel the need to just couch everything in humor.

One of the great things about this community is that there is room here for everyone, in whatever way they like to participate, as long as it's done in a respectful manner. Poking at folks, throwing the blame back at them and then threatening to flounce out, doesn't really come across as respectful.

[tapu]

Originally Posted by Gayla

I thought my question was fairly direct and, honestly, I was hoping for a direct answer. If your intention was not to be disrespectful and I just, as I've been told in multiple rep comments, "misunderstood", then I would hope you would say that.

I find your comment about the fragility of members here to be deflective and dismissive of the fact that some people enjoy serious discussions and don't feel the need to just couch everything in humor.

One of the great things about this community is that there is room here for everyone, in whatever way they like to participate, as long as it's done in a respectful manner. Poking at folks, throwing the blame back at them and then threatening to flounce out, doesn't really come across as respectful.

Okay. Well, I don't feel like I can say anything more about that.

[Chancie]

Does it always end up being about the butches?

[OS Butch]

Originally Posted by tapu

How 'bout those Red Sox, huh?

Booooo!!!! How about those Nats..... Ok maybe not.