Here come the lesbians, here come the leaping lesbians...

[Heart]

Hmmmm.... maybe.... perhaps there is a core conflict that is not being confronted head-on -- that of female leadership vs. trans leadership.

That could possibly translate as "old guard" vs. "new guard." I said possibly, cause I don't really know. But I wonder....

I think maybe women's communities (including lesbians, female identified butches, femmes, feminists, etc) and trans communities (particularly FtM trans-masculine folks, etc), are skating over some deep and serious stuff that needs to be worked through....

Heart

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by Heart

Hmmmm.... maybe.... perhaps there is a core conflict that is not being confronted head-on -- that of female leadership vs. trans leadership.

That could possibly translate as "old guard" vs. "new guard." I said possibly, cause I don't really know. But I wonder....

I think maybe women's communities (including lesbians, female identified butches, femmes, feminists, etc) and trans communities (particularly FtM trans-masculine folks, etc), are skating over some deep and serious stuff that needs to be worked through....

Heart

What Heart says rings true for me but is a little more basic than just leadership, old and new guard.

To me, the issue comes down to basic female vs other than female identified. It comes down to not a butch thing, however one chooses to define it, but to a female vs non-female/male thing. And it is not about celebrating diversity. It is about attempts to meld genders into something acceptable to all.

While I have a great deal of respect for transpersons, I have no need or desire, nor do I find it at all beneficial to women to meld genders. I actually find that to be disturbing and downright foolish.

In many respects, it is like saying to a group of diverse ethnicities, lets all become one cuz our commonness is in being human. AND, lets have the white race head it all. I tend to think other ethnicities might have a wee bit of a problem with this considering the history and reality of ongoing oppression and racism.

Same is true when you try and meld female and non-female into "masculine of center". The very term negates my femaleness and promotes things masculine. This will never sit right with me.

In the same vein, there are attempts, from my point of view, to meld lesbian/gay with non lesbian/gay. Again, this doesnt sit right with me. I am not at all comfortable with giving up my lesbianism in any way, shape or form.

As a point of history, Planet didnt even have a Lesbian Zone back in 2010. It took a bit of controversy to get one. And then, a guy takes it upon himself to start the first thread in the Lesbian Zone. That was a power play and a very in your face display of masculine privilege.

To me, there are boundaries and space issues which should be respected if one wants to celebrate diversity. It is about not blurring boundaries or invading others space or one group taking it upon themselves to speak for another. To do so is putting one in a dominant position and the other in a subordinate one.

There may be a new world order coming but it shouldnt come at the expense of melding genders or orientations.

[OS Butch]

This conversation stirs many things in my memories as a lesbian and butch woman.

Years ago through my employer, we had to attend Diversity Training. In the room there were signs around the room. Age, Man/Woman, Nationality, Sexual Orientation, and several others I can't remember.
The exercise was to stand under the sign in the order of importance in your life. My 1st sign I stood under was Woman. Some where around 3rd , did I stand under the sexual orientation sign, which happened to be right next to the age sign. There was a crowd under the age one and I was the only one standing at the Sexual orientation sign. The guy standing next to me said something about squeezing in to make room in the age group. I said no, thats ok, I am standing here because I am queer as a 3 dollar bill.
Not too long ago, a lesbian woman, very ignorant of the butch femme dynamic, said to me that I made a poor imitation of a man.
At a Butch Femme event, the was a stink about a POC luncheon, because it was for only for POC, not allies or significant others that were not POC.
I am not sure where all my rambling is leading, but these are the things that have popped into my head after reading the recent posts.

OSB

[Slater]

In reading the BV open letter, this, to me is the most telling line:

"Anyone knowledgeable about BUTCH Voices’ missions or initiatives can see that we have, and will continue to, work hard to include female identified, woman identified, and feminist Butches in all that we do ... "

If you are having to work that damn hard to include female-identified butches in a butch organization (and still failing pretty spectacularly, by the looks of things) then you have some huge, core, fundamental problems. Seriously, I can't even believe they could write this sentence like it's an okay thing. It clearly portrays female-identified butches as outsiders that the good folks at BV are trying so hard to include.

If they were serious about this, if they had integrity about this, after the conference they would suspend all other activities until they had this sh!t sorted out. How can anything that Butch Voices does be seen as legitimate if they are, by their own admission, struggling to include female-identified butches? They need to either suspend operations while they restructure and redistribute power or they need to change their name/focus and stop pretending to be something that they're not.

[Chazz]

Still hoping for a discussion of this:

Originally Posted by Heart

Hmmmm.... maybe.... perhaps there is a core conflict that is not being confronted head-on -- that of female leadership vs. trans leadership.

That could possibly translate as "old guard" vs. "new guard." I said possibly, cause I don't really know. But I wonder....

I think maybe women's communities (including lesbians, female identified butches, femmes, feminists, etc) and trans communities (particularly FtM trans-masculine folks, etc), are skating over some deep and serious stuff that needs to be worked through....

Heart

This business of leadership style is about how power and control is welded.

The Butch Voices controversy illustrates a top down, hierarchical model typically associated with male leadership. Its authoritarian, elitist, patronizing and pretentious. This form of "leadership" presumes to speak FOR its constituents. Hence, neologisms like: "Masculine of center".

Feminist models of leadership tend to be collaborative, relational, inclusive, horizontal rather than hierarchical, with a keen eye towards power dynamics.

"Study findings indicate that because feminists construct themselves differently from traditional [male] leadership models, they are often marginalized." (Tracy Barton, PhD in 2006 in higher education administration and women’s and gender studies from the University of Toledo)

For further reading on Feminist leadership styles: http://www.humiliationstudies.org/do...Leadership.pdf

[Chazz]

Originally Posted by Kobi

What Heart says rings true for me but is a little more basic than just leadership, old and new guard.

To me, the issue comes down to basic female vs other than female identified. It comes down to not a butch thing, however one chooses to define it, but to a female vs non-female/male thing. And it is not about celebrating diversity. It is about attempts to meld genders into something acceptable to all.

Ah, the grand melting post of gender.

Who's agenda does that grand melting post serve?

Originally Posted by Kobi

While I have a great deal of respect for transpersons, I have no need or desire, nor do I find it at all beneficial to women to meld genders. I actually find that to be disturbing and downright foolish.

Yep....

Originally Posted by Kobi

In many respects, it is like saying to a group of diverse ethnicities, lets all become one cuz our commonness is in being human. AND, lets have the white race head it all. I tend to think other ethnicities might have a wee bit of a problem with this considering the history and reality of ongoing oppression and racism.

Same is true when you try and meld female and non-female into "masculine of center". The very term negates my femaleness and promotes things masculine. This will never sit right with me.

In the same vein, there are attempts, from my point of view, to meld lesbian/gay with non lesbian/gay. Again, this doesn't sit right with me. I am not at all comfortable with giving up my lesbianism in any way, shape or form.

As a point of history, Planet didnt even have a Lesbian Zone back in 2010. It took a bit of controversy to get one. And then, a guy takes it upon himself to start the first thread in the Lesbian Zone. That was a power play and a very in your face display of masculine privilege.

To me, there are boundaries and space issues which should be respected if one wants to celebrate diversity. It is about not blurring boundaries or invading others space or one group taking it upon themselves to speak for another. To do so is putting one in a dominant position and the other in a subordinate one.

It is precisely about "blurring boundaries", "invading other's space" and "taking it upon themselves to speak for another".

In academic circles that's called neo-colonialism (it use to be referred to as: The White Man's Burden).

Originally Posted by Kobi

There may be a new world order coming but it shouldn't come at the expense of melding genders or orientations.

It's NOT about a "new world order coming". It's about the reinstatement of a very old world order.

When are lesbians going to look at these issues through the lens of critical thinking? It will be too late when we get herded into calling ourselves gender screwnicorns?

[Chazz]

Ummm, just though of this.....

If butches are "masculine of center", where are femmes?



Feminine of center, I guess. (Yet another default position for femmes - sigh.)

But wait.... Where was the "center"?

Oh yeah, Wyoming.

Where's Wyoming?

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Chazz

Ummm, just though of this.....

If butches are "masculine of center", where are femmes?



Feminine of center, I guess. (Yet another default position for femmes - sigh.)

But wait.... Where was the "center"?

Oh yeah, Wyoming.

Where's Wyoming?

Carried out to it's logical conclusion MoC ends up being yet another covert way to put women in their places...just like it always has been.

It pisses me OFF.

Or that is what it sounds like to me. That being Trans is preferable to being women.

[Chazz]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

Carried out to it's logical conclusion MoC ends up being yet another covert way to put women in their places...just like it always has been.

It pisses me OFF.

What's samatta, you don't like Wyoming?

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Chazz

What's samatta, you don't like Wyoming?

I am sure it is quite lovely, but why we gotta move?

[Chazz]

Maybe butch women should start an organization called Uzbek Voices and presume to speak for them.

We'll let Uzbeks join of course as long as they're quiet and do what we tell them to do. And, come to our conferences and stuff.

We'll call them Asians of center.

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by Chazz

Ummm, just though of this.....

If butches are "masculine of center", where are femmes?



Feminine of center, I guess. (Yet another default position for femmes - sigh.)

But wait.... Where was the "center"?

Oh yeah, Wyoming.

Where's Wyoming?

It's right here (a little to the left) in the center...



Personally, I think Kansas is in the center.....

[Heart]

Originally Posted by Chazz

Ummm, just though of this.....

If butches are "masculine of center", where are femmes?



Feminine of center, I guess. (Yet another default position for femmes - sigh.)

See my post in this thread:

http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/foru...264#post387264

[ScandalAndy]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

What exactly are we supposed to discuss if issues concerning our community are not acceptable? Are there certain areas of being a Lesbian you would like to see?

Even the person who started this thread is not a Lesbian.....so really I would think we can talk about whatever we want to?

To me, Butch Lesbians are Lesbians.

Maybe report the thread if you don't like the content?

I don't understand the problem.

To me, this has been a Lesbian discussion of long standing.

Originally Posted by Heart

I don't think Jess was debating, I think Jess was speaking to issues related to the Butch Voices controversy that is being discussed here by lesbians.

Sheesh.

Originally Posted by Slater

If there was a detailed discussion of the term butch and who it does or doesn't include, then I would definitely agree with you that this wasn't the best place for it because this forum would not naturally include some of the stakeholders in such a discussion. Hopefully I have not misunderstood your objection.

But to me it seems like this discussion is mostly about feeling out where the areas of contention are -- defining the issues that need to be addressed, rather than trying to address them. And while I think this certainly could take places in other forums, I don't think it's out of place here, for two reasons.

First, as Heart mentioned, it centers around erasing the female-identified (and largely lesbian-identified) butches and all that is implied in that. But beyond that, I think lesbian-identified femmes have a stake in this too. Even though it is a butch organization, the manner in which it (or any organization in our community) addresses questions/problems around sexism and female leadership and participation is relevant to both butches and femmes.

My understanding from the posts in this thread is that it is a place to proudly identify as a lesbian and find others who identify as such too. As of right now, however, it has degenerated into a "bitch about Butch Voices" thread, which, as I said before and still stand by, I believe would be best served in it's own thread instead of derailing this one.

As for Jess's comment, I was solely intending to use that to counter Heart's objection that discussion about what the term "butch" meant was not happening, when clearly it was.

I think the discussion about BV is important, like I said, I just don't think this was the right thread for it.

[OS Butch]

Seems to me that lesbians, butch, femme, purple whatever the flavor, in a discussion about anything is a good thing. Since this thread started, May 2010 to Jul 11, 2011 there had been 97 posts. Since yesterday, 57 additional posts. Looks great to me. As a butch lesbian, I am enjoying reading what these folks have taken the time to post.

Originally Posted by ScandalAndy

My understanding from the posts in this thread is that it is a place to proudly identify as a lesbian and find others who identify as such too. As of right now, however, it has degenerated into a "bitch about Butch Voices" thread, which, as I said before and still stand by, I believe would be best served in it's own thread instead of derailing this one.

As for Jess's comment, I was solely intending to use that to counter Heart's objection that discussion about what the term "butch" meant was not happening, when clearly it was.

I think the discussion about BV is important, like I said, I just don't think this was the right thread for it.

[ScandalAndy]

Originally Posted by OS Butch

Seems to me that lesbians, butch, femme, purple whatever the flavor, in a discussion about anything is a good thing. Since this thread started, May 2010 to Jul 11, 2011 there had been 97 posts. Since yesterday, 57 additional posts. Looks great to me. As a butch lesbian, I am enjoying reading what these folks have taken the time to post.

sounds good, have at it! I don't really care, I was just pointing out that the title and intro post have nothing to do with the current convo and do not help to direct individuals to it.

[dykeumentary]

Originally Posted by ScandalAndy

sounds good, have at it! I don't really care, I was just pointing out that the title and intro post have nothing to do with the current convo and do not help to direct individuals to it.

Hey Scandalandy, if you don't really care, then why try to be "thread police"? I was the one who bought up this topic in this thread. I neither cared about the intro post nor 'directing people to it'.

It's here, we are discussing it.

Also, I am disappointed with your characterization about our discussion as a "biitch about butch voices thread". I find that language sexist and offensive. Additionally, I call-out anti-lesbian actions wherever and whenever I see it-- on the street, in a bar, anywhere. I certainly don't need to "find a thread" that you or anyone might feel is more appropriate.

It's clear that emotions are running hot on this issue. What is your motivation for being traffic cop?

[dykeumentary]

Originally Posted by ScandalAndy

My understanding from the posts in this thread is that it is a place to proudly identify as a lesbian and find others who identify as such too. As of right now, however, it has degenerated into a "bitch about Butch Voices" thread, which, as I said before and still stand by, I believe would be best served in it's own thread instead of derailing this one.

i "identify as such".

[BullDog]

I still don't understand why people don't get why some of us feel the need and desire to have a Lesbian Zone (which is also of course open to Friends and Allies posting in) on a Butch Femme website to discuss issues of interest to lesbians or issues from a lesbian perspective. I seriously don't get it.

My difficulties with Butch Voices and the way I was treated by them had everything to do with the fact that I am a Butch Woman and Lesbian, so it makes perfect sense to me to discuss it in the Lesbian Zone. If it doesn't for others, you can always discuss it elsewhere. Or not.

I was a little puzzled when Liam started this thread since I had just started mine, but I do believe he started it to help bring visibility to lesbians when Kobi was new and trying to find her way here and wondering where the lesbians were. Linus also wanted to help Kobi out and I think that had a lot to do with the Lesbian Zone being created in the first place.

I actually started my thread on Lesbians/Dykes because people were wondering where the lesbians or lesbian threads were as well- different people, different thread than where Kobi was wondering. There wasn't a Lesbian Zone yet. I can't remember where I put it. Anyway Linus moved it to the Lesbian Zone. I was happy the Zone was created and that my thread was moved.

[Chazz]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I still don't understand why people don't get why some of us feel the need and desire to have a Lesbian Zone (which is also of course open to Friends and Allies posting in) on a Butch Femme website to discuss issues of interest to lesbians or issues from a lesbian perspective. I seriously don't get it....

Because we're suppose to be big tent people and just assimilate into other people's world view and characterizations of us, silly.

Talking among ourselves about issues of importance to us in a space of our own - how exclusive and discriminatory.