Here come the lesbians, here come the leaping lesbians...

[Jess]

Originally Posted by Anya/Georgia

I thought given both threads, a little herstory might give perspective. For those of us that already lived through this in the second wave of feminism-it really just is the same issue of inclusion:

"In 1969, National Organization for Women president Betty Friedan had referred to growing lesbian visibility as a "lavender menace" and fired openly lesbian newsletter editor Rita Mae Brown. Furthermore, in 1970 Betty Friedan engineered the expulsion of lesbians, including local president Ivy Bottini, from NOW's New York chapter. In 1970, at the Congress to Unite Women, on the first evening when all four hundred feminists were assembeled in the auditorium, the lights were shut off, and when they were turned on again twenty women wearing t-shirts that read "Lavender Menace" stood at the front of the room, facing the audience. One of the women then read their group's paper "The Woman-Identified Woman", which was the first major lesbian feminist statement. The group, who later named themselves "Radicalesbians", were among the first to challenge the heterosexism of heterosexual feminists and to describe lesbian experience in positive terms."

Thank you. Reminders of why lesbians felt removed from the national feminist/ equal rights struggle are always a good thing. As I have thought about this thread the film If These Walls Could Talk Part 2 has come to mind a few times. Here is a description from Wiki regarding a section of that film that directly relates to this:

"1972
Linda (Michelle Williams), a young student, now shares the house with three friends, all lesbians. They face conflict with the feminist group they are part of when the other women do not want to include lesbian issues despite the fact that Linda and her friends helped to found the group and fought for free contraception on campus with their straight friends.
At a lesbian bar they have not been to before, they are surprised and disappointed to see women apparently fulfilling traditional butch and femme roles. They laugh at Amy (Chloë Sevigny), a young butch woman who is wearing a tie. Amy asks Linda to dance but she refuses while her friends are still there. The others soon leave and Linda stays behind and dances with Amy. Later, Amy gives Linda a ride home on her motorcycle and they kiss. Linda invites Amy to return the next day.
The next day Linda and the others are arguing with a woman from the feminist group when Amy arrives. Linda is embarrassed and is short with Amy who quickly leaves. Linda's friends tease her about Amy and question how they can be taken seriously as feminists if they associate with people like Amy. They cannot understand why a woman would dress like a man when they have fought so hard to escape such stereotypical roles.
Linda goes to Amy's house and apologizes. They sleep together. The next morning Linda sees a picture of Amy as a child, dressed like a boy. She asks Amy if Amy is supposed to be the man and Linda the woman. Amy says no and accuses Linda of being afraid that people will know what she is if she is seen with Amy.
Amy goes to Linda's house for dinner. Linda urges her friends to give Amy a chance but an awkward evening deteriorates when Linda's friends laugh at Amy and try to make her change her clothes. Amy leaves, upset. Linda follows her home and tells her that she was never ashamed of Amy, but only of herself. They reconcile."

If you have never seen the film, I highly recommend it. It has three parts, the above section is the second segment and one of the best filmed ( even if it is fictional) scenarios based on this divisive era.

Regarding what is and what is not "appropriate" content for this particular thread, I feel that it is pretty open to interpretation. The title and opening ( thank you Liam for creating it!) leaves ample room for ANY discussion Lesbians may want to engage in among one another. To conclude it is for just a role call ( hi, my name is ______ and I am a lesbian) is ok, if that is as far as you ( the reader) wish to take it. I have found that generally, after the howdys have taken place, other conversations will follow. I am pretty ok with seeing where the conversations go. It is how we grow.

[tapu]

Fantastic film. I can still see Chloe Sevigney's face when they try to dress her up femme.

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by Jess

Regarding what is and what is not "appropriate" content for this particular thread, I feel that it is pretty open to interpretation. The title and opening ( thank you Liam for creating it!) leaves ample room for ANY discussion Lesbians may want to engage in among one another. To conclude it is for just a role call ( hi, my name is ______ and I am a lesbian) is ok, if that is as far as you ( the reader) wish to take it. I have found that generally, after the howdys have taken place, other conversations will follow. I am pretty ok with seeing where the conversations go. It is how we grow.

I agree...which is why I objected to being told that my posts (and Tapu's) were somehow "not okay" and the others were.

I'm fine with any and all posting. I don't come in and smack people for derailing...I simply post what I want to, and allow others to do the same.

It's a simple approach, and lends itself to acceptance rather than policing others....and I'm all for that.

If folks here want to discuss serious subjects...have at it. I simply objected to Christie's attempts to police the thread (and me).

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by JustJo

I agree...which is why I objected to being told that my posts (and Tapu's) were somehow "not okay" and the others were.

I'm fine with any and all posting. I don't come in and smack people for derailing...I simply post what I want to, and allow others to do the same.

It's a simple approach, and lends itself to acceptance rather than policing others....and I'm all for that.

If folks here want to discuss serious subjects...have at it. I simply objected to Christie's attempts to police the thread (and me).

For what it is worth, to me, it seems there are common courtesy and respect issues that would be nice to address here.

The lesbian zone and its threads are not very widely used. A serious topic of interest and relevence to a butch lesbians was being explored. It had morphed into some herstory and reminder of where we all came from too.

In the midst of this, folks who rarely have the need to leap, suddenly needed to leap. I am a lesbian, so I am all for leaping.

However, if there was a serious conversation going on someplace about cancer treatment, it would not even occur to me to pop in and start a posting about the Red Sox.

And, I certainly would have a hard time getting bent out of shape if I wasnt responded to or if I got my hat handed to me on a sliver platter for having interrupted.

There is freedom here to go where we please and post where we want, when we want. But, to me, it doesnt over rule common courtesy and respect for others.

Just my take on things. Please, continue leaping.

[tapu]

Originally Posted by Kobi

For what it is worth, to me, it seems there are common courtesy and respect issues that would be nice to address here.

The lesbian zone and its threads are not very widely used. A serious topic of interest and relevence to a butch lesbians was being explored. It had morphed into some herstory and reminder of where we all came from too.

In the midst of this, folks who rarely have the need to leap, suddenly needed to leap. I am a lesbian, so I am all for leaping.

However, if there was a serious conversation going on someplace about cancer treatment, it would not even occur to me to pop in and start a posting about the Red Sox.

And, I certainly would have a hard time getting bent out of shape if I wasnt responded to or if I got my hat handed to me on a sliver platter for having interrupted.

There is freedom here to go where we please and post where we want, when we want. But, to me, it doesnt over rule common courtesy and respect for others.

Just my take on things. Please, continue leaping.

Calling that common courtesy doesn't make it a neutral viewpoint. Real courtesy is mutual. Some of us in there leaping weren't disrespectful of those turning it into a platform for "butch voices" debate--no one said, "hey, wrong thread," now did they?--but at the same time when someone said anything else, it was squelched. To say that was the equivalent of interrupting a conversation about cancer to post about the Red Sox is at best hyperbole.

[Nina]

this is not my forum....I read it since I am interested to know what people are saying 'n stuff...and sometimes I see the names of folks I stalk in here so I read it....(waves to Jo this morning)...

that said: it seems to me to be Very heavy handed, and pretty patronizing, to equate a line or two of lightness with coming into a cancer thread and talking baseball (I assume that's the red socks reference and not a fashion commentary?)...do we forget that one of the advantages of the internet is that we Do Not have to keep reading if we find, after the first few words, that what we are reading is not a good fit?...do we forget that when we are stern and do the public admonishment thing that other people, maybe some of the many folks who come and read and think and get something from this venue, may well think to themselves that they can't take the risk of posting lest they are deemed as not "enough" for the thread patrols?...

I have not said anything for a while, and not been sure If I had the 'right' to comment....this morning I feel I do...feel free to write this off to some 'oh that crazy-nina' thing...or,even better to have done, as I suggest and do myself, just stopped reading it when it became clear it was an annoyance or a derail or any other thing which didn't resonate...

[tapu]

Originally Posted by Kobi

A serious topic of interest and relevence to a butch lesbians was being explored. It had morphed into some herstory and reminder of where we all came from too.

For the record, it had morphed into a discussion of who was getting paid or comped at this BV conference.

For the love of lesbians** lets leap....

Some lesbians like to do it groups...with pants on their heads


Some like to do it in pairs


Some leap solo


Whether you favour the more traditional leap...


or the 'bomb'...


if it makes you light-headed...


Whatever you do don't jump ship, just keep on leaping!







**no lesbians of any ID were hurt in the making of this post.


I hope no-one is offended by a little levity in amongst the more serious discussion................normal service can now resumed.

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by Kobi

For what it is worth, to me, it seems there are common courtesy and respect issues that would be nice to address here.

The lesbian zone and its threads are not very widely used. A serious topic of interest and relevence to a butch lesbians was being explored. It had morphed into some herstory and reminder of where we all came from too.

In the midst of this, folks who rarely have the need to leap, suddenly needed to leap. I am a lesbian, so I am all for leaping.

However, if there was a serious conversation going on someplace about cancer treatment, it would not even occur to me to pop in and start a posting about the Red Sox.

And, I certainly would have a hard time getting bent out of shape if I wasnt responded to or if I got my hat handed to me on a sliver platter for having interrupted.

There is freedom here to go where we please and post where we want, when we want. But, to me, it doesnt over rule common courtesy and respect for others.

Just my take on things. Please, continue leaping.

Hi Kobi,

I understand your point of view and appreciate your post. I am also a fan of common courtesy....which is why you'll rarely hear me telling anyone else what they should do, say, be, or how they should conduct themselves.

Here's the thing for me....and, yes, it ties in to feminism and our history if you'll bear with me.

As a woman, I have been told all of my life how I should behave, what I should value, how I should think, how I should look, etc. Who I was, was not acceptable to the larger society. I should conform, and accept the values of others and....for lack of a better summary....be a good girl.

When I come into BFP, which is supposed to be OUR space, where we can be ourselves, and get policed by other members.....I have an issue.

If I want to be silly or frivilous or serious or intellectual or pissed off is up to me. It is not up to anyone else.

There is another thread (or two) devoted to the subject of the Butch Voices conference. I am not in there leaping and joking. I have stayed out, out of simple respect, for a few reasons.

1. I'm not butch
2. I've never attended Butch Voices
3. I don't know any of the people involved
4. I don't know any of the history involved

I may go read, but I probably won't comment. And I certainly won't go be silly in that thread.

However, this thread started with a light-hearted tone. Yes, some serious conversations evolved, and I'm all for that. But I resent, like hell, being smacked for being light-hearted in a thread that was intended to be.

I also resent, like hell, being told how to behave by anyone.

If I have violated the TOS, and a moderator points it out to me, then I will acknowledge, apologize and do my damndest not to do it again. I also follow the laws of the larger society. I don't steal. I don't hit people. I don't even lie on my tax return. Heck, I don't even roll through stop signs. I'm a "rulester", as an old-co-worker named me.

I was raised by a mother that we called, among other things "the rabid feminist." I was not allowed to own a Barbie doll because they were tools of the oppressors. I was not allowed to take Home Economics (even though I loved the subject) or Typing in school because they were the means used to subjugate women. Get the feel for it?

Once again, who I was was not acceptable.

I have never been acceptable...not to the male-dominated conservative society that thought I should get married, have babies and blah blah blah (I'm almost 50....so those messages were alive and well).

I was not acceptable to the andro-lesbians of the 70s because of my inherent femininity.

Here's my personal feminism....and it took me a long damn time to come to....I am just fine. I am acceptable to me. Whether I have sex and relationships with men, or women, or no one at all....that's up to me. If I am intellectual and serious or goofy and frivilous....that's up to me. If I am aggressive, passive, assertive or indifferent....that's up to me.

I do not always (okay, almost never) spout the politically correct vernacular. I'm not a politically correct person. And that's up to me, too.

I am tired of people telling other people how to be....whether we do it in Butch Voices or other conferences, online, in our laws, or by declaring war on other countries.

Maybe I'm getting old and fed up (in fact, I'm sure I am)....but I am sick and tired of it. We do it all the time. We constantly message others.....don't think like that, don't talk like that, don't dress like that, don't use those words, use these words, be this way, call yourself this, don't vote like that, vote like this, believe what I believe, don't think for yourself........BLECH!

When we start behaving with each other the way the larger society has behaved towards us....by judging, censoring and shutting people down....then I'm going to do a big ass, polka-dot clad cannonball in the middle of it.

And that's up to me too. *end rant*

[tapu]

Man, that Jo-babe really brings it.

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by JustJo

Hi Kobi,

I understand your point of view and appreciate your post. I am also a fan of common courtesy....which is why you'll rarely hear me telling anyone else what they should do, say, be, or how they should conduct themselves.

Here's the thing for me....and, yes, it ties in to feminism and our history if you'll bear with me.

As a woman, I have been told all of my life how I should behave, what I should value, how I should think, how I should look, etc. Who I was, was not acceptable to the larger society. I should conform, and accept the values of others and....for lack of a better summary....be a good girl.

When I come into BFP, which is supposed to be OUR space, where we can be ourselves, and get policed by other members.....I have an issue.

If I want to be silly or frivilous or serious or intellectual or pissed off is up to me. It is not up to anyone else.

There is another thread (or two) devoted to the subject of the Butch Voices conference. I am not in there leaping and joking. I have stayed out, out of simple respect, for a few reasons.

1. I'm not butch
2. I've never attended Butch Voices
3. I don't know any of the people involved
4. I don't know any of the history involved

I may go read, but I probably won't comment. And I certainly won't go be silly in that thread.

However, this thread started with a light-hearted tone. Yes, some serious conversations evolved, and I'm all for that. But I resent, like hell, being smacked for being light-hearted in a thread that was intended to be.

I also resent, like hell, being told how to behave by anyone.

If I have violated the TOS, and a moderator points it out to me, then I will acknowledge, apologize and do my damndest not to do it again. I also follow the laws of the larger society. I don't steal. I don't hit people. I don't even lie on my tax return. Heck, I don't even roll through stop signs. I'm a "rulester", as an old-co-worker named me.

I was raised by a mother that we called, among other things "the rabid feminist." I was not allowed to own a Barbie doll because they were tools of the oppressors. I was not allowed to take Home Economics (even though I loved the subject) or Typing in school because they were the means used to subjugate women. Get the feel for it?

Once again, who I was was not acceptable.

I have never been acceptable...not to the male-dominated conservative society that thought I should get married, have babies and blah blah blah (I'm almost 50....so those messages were alive and well).

I was not acceptable to the andro-lesbians of the 70s because of my inherent femininity.

Here's my personal feminism....and it took me a long damn time to come to....I am just fine. I am acceptable to me. Whether I have sex and relationships with men, or women, or no one at all....that's up to me. If I am intellectual and serious or goofy and frivilous....that's up to me. If I am aggressive, passive, assertive or indifferent....that's up to me.

I do not always (okay, almost never) spout the politically correct vernacular. I'm not a politically correct person. And that's up to me, too.

I am tired of people telling other people how to be....whether we do it in Butch Voices or other conferences, online, in our laws, or by declaring war on other countries.

Maybe I'm getting old and fed up (in fact, I'm sure I am)....but I am sick and tired of it. We do it all the time. We constantly message others.....don't think like that, don't talk like that, don't dress like that, don't use those words, use these words, be this way, call yourself this, don't vote like that, vote like this, believe what I believe, don't think for yourself........BLECH!

When we start behaving with each other the way the larger society has behaved towards us....by judging, censoring and shutting people down....then I'm going to do a big ass, polka-dot clad cannonball in the middle of it.

And that's up to me too. *end rant*

With all due respect Jo, I am a woman too. I, too, have been subjected to many of the same issues as you. We are products of the same era and similar breeding.

I keep trying my best to not reenact the same garbarge that was thrust upon me. I didnt like when it was done to me and I have no desire to do it to others.

However, I have no qualms about speaking to what I see as common courtesy and respect. We can respectfully agree to disagree. Neither of us has the right or need, I hope, to be disagreeable.

And, I am not and will not be your or anyone else's punching bag of the day.

End of pseudo-rant.

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by Kobi

With all due respect Jo, I am a woman too. I, too, have been subjected to many of the same issues as you. We are products of the same era and similar breeding.

I keep trying my best to not reenact the same garbarge that was thrust upon me. I didnt like when it was done to me and I have no desire to do it to others.

However, I have no qualms about speaking to what I see as common courtesy and respect. We can respectfully agree to disagree. Neither of us has the right or need, I hope, to be disagreeable.

And, I am not and will not be your or anyone else's punching bag of the day.

End of pseudo-rant.

Then we are in the same boat and, for the record, I don't use people as punching bags. I don't even use punching bags as punching bags. I simply speak my own mind, and invite you and everyone else to do the same.

[tapu]

How 'bout those Red Sox, huh?