Casey Anthony - guilty, or not?

[Andrew, Jr.]

Everyone has the right to their own opinion. That is why Baskin Robbins has 31 flavors.

[girl_dee]

Yes we all have a right to our opinions but no right to be offensive.

[scootebaby]

Andrew

I have ALWAYS tried to understand your reasonings and posts when a lot of people jump to the wrong conclusion,or flat out attack you,but your last post was totally a "fuck you" in my eyes to all of "US" single moms...and to me personally because i am the SINGLE mother of a MALE child.


You are right everyone is entitled to their own opinion...i guess kinda like everyone has the right to be an asshole!

[Andrew, Jr.]

Ladies and Gentlemen,

I was only stating my own personal opinion. I apologize if I offended anyone with my opinion. This evening my neighbors and I were chatting about this case over dinner, and everyone agreed with my opinion. I am really surprised that folks here were offended because when chatting about this, some of the neighbors were single mothers.

I am now leaving this thread.

Andrew

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by Andrew, Jr.

The jurors distrust of George Anthony really surprised me. I think most of those women jurors were single mothers who just disliked men in my opinion.

Excuse me?

I know I'm not the first one verbalizing this, but this statement is offensive.

There are an awful lot of us who are single mothers....and I would venture to guess it has no impact on our opinions about men.

As a matter of fact, both my partner and I are the single mothers of boys. Are you trying to tell us we dislike men? And, if so, when are we supposed to suddenly start disliking our sons?

You're calling this an "opinion" - which it is....but it's the same kind of opinion that leads to racism, sexism, sizism, ageism and all of the crap we're all supposedly working hard to rid ourselves of.

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by Andrew, Jr.

Ladies and Gentlemen,

I was only stating my own personal opinion. I apologize if I offended anyone with my opinion. This evening my neighbors and I were chatting about this case over dinner, and everyone agreed with my opinion. I am really surprised that folks here were offended because when chatting about this, some of the neighbors were single mothers.
I am now leaving this thread.

Andrew

I see....so if other people back up my racist opinions and they happen to be POC, then it's okay for me to say it?

[Thinker]

We're receiving reported posts from this thread. Let's steer clear of any dog-piling situations while the mod team sorts this out.

We'll be back.

Thanks.

Thinker (moderator)

[Scorp]

Personally, I'm done with reading this thread for a couple of reasons. Mostly because I may say something out of line and be considered a vigilante and it will be viewed as inappropriate (even though in my mind I feel differently) and I'm saying that openly here.

In time the truth will come out because it usually has a way of doing so.

Lastly, and most importantly, rest in peace sweet little Caylee. You're an angel in heaven and will not be forgotten.

- Scorp (unsubscribing from this thread)

[Thinker]

I'm going to steal a page out of June's play book and go through these posts with you; some are problematic and some are not.

Originally Posted by Andrew, Jr.

The jurors distrust of George Anthony really surprised me. I think most of those women jurors were single mothers who just disliked men in my opinion.

Andrew, while it is true that is your opinion, that type of statement is *not* helpful and, as others pointed out, only lends itself to further perpetuate sexist notions. It's really not any different from the age old "lesbians are men haters" thing, and we all know what kind of bullshit that is.

It really was a gross statement to make.

Originally Posted by scootebaby

Andrew,i mean no disrespect,but ur statement of "single women who dislike men" is way off base and out of line. Altho it was a 7/5 split(if i recall correctly) i know of at least 2 female jurors were married. As for George....he made himself look untrusting..the way he went around answering instead of directly,or getting into a pissing match with Baez

Thank you for this. It's really a perfect response to a statement that "throws you for a loop".

Originally Posted by sassy_girl

Huh? ...........

A reply like this isn't helpful. It doesn't do anything to further the conversation in a constructive manner, and it can be read as insulting too.

Originally Posted by tantalizingfemme

Can you explain how single mothers = women who dislike men? I find this really offensive as a single mother.

Again, this is a great way to respond to what was written. Ask for clarification. We can say things are offensive without tearing down the person who posted the statement.

Originally Posted by Andrew, Jr.

Everyone has the right to their own opinion. That is why Baskin Robbins has 31 flavors.

This isn't helpful either.

Originally Posted by sassy_girl

Yes we all have a right to our opinions but no right to be offensive.

Yes.

Originally Posted by scootebaby

Andrew

I have ALWAYS tried to understand your reasonings and posts when a lot of people jump to the wrong conclusion,or flat out attack you,but your last post was totally a "fuck you" in my eyes to all of "US" single moms...and to me personally because i am the SINGLE mother of a MALE child.


You are right everyone is entitled to their own opinion...i guess kinda like everyone has the right to be an asshole!

scoote, I was just loving this response......until that last little bit. While one can argue you didn't flat out call Andrew an asshole, one can also argue that it sure seems that way.

I understand the feelings involved here, but I believe we can always do better (and you initially did) than resorting to name-calling. Once we go down that road, the person whom we most want to hear us is no longer listening.

Originally Posted by Andrew, Jr.

Ladies and Gentlemen,

I was only stating my own personal opinion. I apologize if I offended anyone with my opinion. This evening my neighbors and I were chatting about this case over dinner, and everyone agreed with my opinion. I am really surprised that folks here were offended because when chatting about this, some of the neighbors were single mothers.

I am now leaving this thread.

Andrew

Andrew, I think it's wonderful that you returned to apologize and to also explain why you felt safe in sharing your opinion (since it had been reinforced by your friends at home). Thank you for that.

Try to avoid the leaving announcement though. I don't believe anyone here wanted you to leave because you said that. I think they wanted you to understand why it was so offensive to them.

Originally Posted by JustJo

Excuse me?

I know I'm not the first one verbalizing this, but this statement is offensive.

There are an awful lot of us who are single mothers....and I would venture to guess it has no impact on our opinions about men.

As a matter of fact, both my partner and I are the single mothers of boys. Are you trying to tell us we dislike men? And, if so, when are we supposed to suddenly start disliking our sons?

You're calling this an "opinion" - which it is....but it's the same kind of opinion that leads to racism, sexism, sizism, ageism and all of the crap we're all supposedly working hard to rid ourselves of.

It's good to share personal stories as to why that statement was hurtful/offensive to you.......gives the poster another way of looking at things.

As I was working on this post I kept thinking to myself, "I hope no one sees this as condescending." I give you my word there is nothing uppity or all-knowing about sharing out this way.

It really is our hope that members here will be able to have hard discussions with one another without always resorting to the "report" button. If we are able to do that then that means we have said difficult things to one another and we have LISTENED to things that might be hurtful without resorting to name-calling, without feeling stepped to, without feeling personally attacked, etc...

A lot of this shit isn't easy, and it's rarely easy to put personal feelings aside when interacting with another member........and it seems damn near impossible to just ignore the posts of people we don't care for! But that *is* what we're working toward.

We've come a long friggin' way, and the mod/admin team has seen a drop in reports because so many of you are really thinking about what you've written down before you hit the SUBMIT REPLY button. Thank you for that, by the way.

So let's get back on track here.

If you have any questions about this moderation, please contact one of us via PM so as not to further derail this very important discussion.

Thinker (moderator)

[NJFemmie]

Originally Posted by Jess

and this is precisely the time that we ( generally/ collectively) need to contact our lawmakers/ representatives with the knowledge of the abused spouse type of scenario that Heart mentioned above.

We ( the people) have their attention, now it is up to us to make them aware of the potential dangers of the previously mentioned pitfalls of a "blanket law".

Conversations like the very one going on here, is what will help our representatives help our families. I do not see the action of the change.org petition initiator as negative or dangerous. I see it as an excellent opportunity for follow up from an informed public.

Agreed. It would be inevitable and completely necessary:

Rikki Klieman, a Los Angeles-based criminal defense lawyer and former prosecutor, said that while she supports the Anthony verdict, she also finds it reasonable in some cases to elevate misdemeanors, such as failure to notify, to felonies.

"But we have to have a debate about defining this," she said. "In some of the proposed laws I've seen, the times are very short. Yes, 31 days is too long, but I can think of many situations in which 48 hours would be too short. We can't put parents and caretakers in a situation that may not be their fault. We have to pay attention to reasonable complications and circumstances."


http://www.philly.com/philly/news/ne...125199389.html


So far, the petition elicited over 600,000 signatures making it very clear that although the general public is outraged - something needs to be done. Every state that has adopted this is working on their own version of it - in attempt to keep it reasonable.

[cinderella]

Good point, Jo. And you are right, these things have to be very carefully thought out before they actually become law.

Petitions are important - it lets the government & judicial system know what the people are thinking/feeling. Our judicial system is not perfect - it has been created by imperfect human beings. But, as many commentators have said - our judicial system is not perfect by any means, but by comparison with other countries, it is the best in the world. I can't say that's completely valid - I only know about US law, and that barely - but in the UK, it is my understanding that one is considered guilty until proven innocent, where in the US, it's the opposite. However you slice it, for me personally, I'd rather deal with our imperfect system then any other country's.

Originally Posted by JustJo

I still think there is a need for such a law....it simply needs to be thought out and written carefully.

I don't think any of us need fear that a proposal is going to be lifted straight from Facebook or change.org and passed as law. It will be discussed, changed, and altered many times before anything is done.

I think petitions of this sort are valuable in that they tell our legislators that we see a gap in the law...and put them on course to addressing it.

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by JustJo

I see....so if other people back up my racist opinions and they happen to be POC, then it's okay for me to say it?

Don't ya know that all you need to not be a racist while espousing racist opinions is to have what June calls a BFTTR--Black Friend to the Rescue. We make it all okay.

This is, of course, a valuable service which I am willing to provide for a small, nominal monthly charge or even barter. For example, I'll be your Black Friend to the Rescue for, say, an iPad 2.


Cheers
Aj

[Toughy]

Our judicial system is not perfect - it has been created by imperfect human beings. But, as many commentators have said - our judicial system is not perfect by any means, but by comparison with other countries, it is the best in the world. I can't say that's completely valid - I only know about US law, and that barely - but in the UK, it is my understanding that one is considered guilty until proven innocent, where in the US, it's the opposite. However you slice it, for me personally, I'd rather deal with our imperfect system then any other country's

If you are comparing our system to dictatorships and some 3rd world countries, yes ours is better. Our law is based on English common law (which is England/UK) which goes back to the late 1700's and maybe even the Magna Carta for trial by jury.

As to the UK.......in criminal cases the burden of proof is on the prosecution just like in the US.

I lived in New Zealand for a year and their judicial system is just as good as ours. Actually I was far less suspicious of the po po (police) when I lived there.....they did not come armed and they knock politely on the door instead of banging on the door with a flashlight. They didn't try to get in the house and were very apologetic for waking me up at midnight. The guy they were looking for did not live at that address any longer.

This idea of US exceptionalism.........we are the best, have the best, work the hardest, have the best system of governing, etc......makes me bonkers. Plus it's insulting to the rest of the world that operate as democracies. As near as I can tell a number of those democracies work better than ours depending on what indicators you look at. None of them have the death penalty and they all have universal health care for everyone paid for by everyone's tax dollars.

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by Toughy

This idea of US exceptionalism.........we are the best, have the best, work the hardest, have the best system of governing, etc......makes me bonkers. Plus it's insulting to the rest of the world that operate as democracies. As near as I can tell a number of those democracies work better than ours depending on what indicators you look at. None of them have the death penalty and they all have universal health care for everyone paid for by everyone's tax dollars.

This might be an interesting topic to discuss in depth someplace else but I did want to say this briefly in echo of what you are saying. It is instructive to note that the *newer* democracies (i.e. the ones that came about after WW II in the wake of dismantling of the English, French and Dutch colonies) have *not* modeled their constitutions on the US Constitution. Rather, they have used the constitutions of other Western democratic republics. In fact, even Japan whose post-WW II constitution was all but written by MacArthur uses a parliamentary system. Other than that and excluding Iraq (for obvious reasons)not a single nation that became a democracy in the 20th century has a constitution modeled on the US Constitution. Not a one. The last nation to do so was the Philippines and that was in 1899 when they became a colony of the US in all but name. Before that it was Liberia in 1847.

Cheers
Aj

[NJFemmie]

More than 800,000 people have now signed the Change.org petition for Caylee's Law, as legislators in at least 16 states have pledged to introduce their own Caylee's Laws.

Other states where lawmakers are considering such measures include Georgia, Kansas, Louisiana, New Jersey, New York, North Carolina, Ohio, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, South Carolina, Texas and West Virginia, according to news reports.

Florida's proposal would make it a felony for a parent or other caregiver to not report a child under the age of 12 missing after 48 hours. It also makes it a felony to not report a child's death or "location of a child's corpse" to police within two hours of the death.
Had Florida's measure been in place and Anthony been convicted, she could have faced another 15 years behind bars.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011...#ixzz1RcBHZx24

[Heart]

NYT editorial - it's not the justice system that's at fault, it's the opportunism.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/10/op...runi.html?_r=1

[Glenn]

You can also blame bad detective and forensic work. But, yes, the world got high and the media got rich on this indignation rush. I also agree that the feeding frenzy crushed the case causing the jurors to second guess themselves.

[Sachita]

I know about the case and occasionally read updates. There is no defense against insanity within a psychopath. I rank these cockroaches, sub-humans in the same category as pedophiles. They simply don't care about the repercussions of their actions as long as their selfish needs are met.

Of course she did it and the reasons why we might not ever know. The biggest consolation is that she will be treated as a murderer the rest of her life. Sure, she may get a book deal or movie, but that is short lived and money will never ever help her escape the stigma she'll always wear. She can get plastic surgery, change her name, etc but in this case I hope she is never allowed to have any more children.

The thing I don't get is the clorofill (sp) and why she would use this to sedate her daughter when there are so many drugs on the market. This part leaves me wondering what her real intentions were.

[Glenn]

[QUOTE=Sachita;

The thing I don't get is the clorofill (sp) and why she would use this to sedate her daughter when there are so many drugs on the market. This part leaves me wondering what her real intentions were.[/QUOTE]

Because she thought looking up recipes for chloroform on the internet was easier and less noticeable. She researched the internet how to use chloroform. Began using it to put her daughter to sleep while she partied. One night, she could'nt wake her up and freaked, so she placed her in a garbage bag, placed a heart-shaped sticker on her mouth, and sealed it with duct tape. She then tossed her in a swamp. 30 days later,she reported her missing, and gave a fake story about a Hispanic nanny. At the very least she should have been convicted of manslaughter.

[BullDog]

I agree that the feeding frenzy has been disgusting, but there is a huge gap in the law if someone can not report a death and then only get sentenced to 4 years in jail. I did not follow the case very closely but from what I have read the decomposition of the body made it almost impossible to determine the cause of the child's death. There was major obstruction of justice.