Bravehearts: FTMs who cannot or choose not to medically transition

[Andrew, Jr.]

Hi everyone. Just dropping by. I hope everyone is doing well, and life is being kind to all.

Love,
Andrew

[theoddz]

I want to say something to the guys here who, for whatever reason, cannot or don't want/don't feel the need to physically/medically/legally transition. I want to say this out of admiration and encouragement, as someone who appreciates each and every one of you for exactly who you are.

During my own transition, so many people have said to me, "I admire the hell out of you for the pure courage it took and is taking you to make this physical/medical/legal change in your life". Believe me, there's been a ton of people who have said that......and in a larger sense, they're wrong.

I think it takes a helluva lot more courage to be who you are, in the skin you are currently in......to not make the kind of transition that I have and to live your day to day lives. I know that, for me, it would have taken a buttload more courage to have not transitioned. G-d knows, and I remember well, how that felt. I know that different people deal with this in differing ways, but it's never an easy road for pretty much anyone and it's just about a constant fight with the yahoos and narrow minds that are out there to accept that you don't fit in "the box".

With transition, there's an end point, of sorts....a goal that you reach where society will pretty much accept you in your target gender. When you can't or don't transtion, for whatever reason, it just goes on and on. Dealing with that takes a lot of cajones......more than I have or will ever have.

My hat's off to you guys for having that kind of courage.

~Theo~

[Jet]

Originally Posted by Linus

It's hard in this world to transition but can be even harder when you're not allowed to or choose not to transition. And want to be seen as the gender you truly are and heard as such. Since I know a few FTMs who have been stopped from medically transitioning (and one that has chosen not to medically transition), a support thread for those here on the BFP would be a good thing.

And I called it Bravehearts. I'm not a huge fan of Mel Gibson but to me, it takes a lot of heart and bravery to continue to move forward to present as male when the world has a narrow definition of gender.

isn't that the truth

[Andrew, Jr.]

Thanks for the admiration. However, it is still heartbreaking to me. I don't have that mind, body, soul connection. And to be denied the gender change is stupid imho. Name changes are a breeze. But the gender change. I just hate the anti-glbt laws.

[Logicaly]

Thank you for starting this thread. I am one of those who at this time is some where in the middle. While I see myself as a man, and live as a man, I have not started hormones, or had any surgeries. At some point I would like to have top surgery, but hormones for me is still up in the air, and I never intend to have bottom surgery.

Anyways, having this thread here helps people like me, and anyone else, feel not so alone, thank you.

[Julien]

Originally Posted by Linus

That wasn't the intent. It was simply to give those that cannot or choose not to transition a place to feel welcomed, safe and able to discuss their issues, dreams, challenges without infringing on others. All marginalized groups have challenges. No way does this lessen that.

Thank you Linus for starting the thread. I appreciate the time and space to discuss our decisions about our Trans status. I for one identify as TG and do not plan on the full transition physically that is. Although I do want top surgery. I do not want to take T and I skate the fine line of male/female. While I do get mistaken for a man, what I remember the most is the confusion on the person's face. I am not confused about who I am and present myself as male, even though I do get taken as a woman too, it is not the most comfortable for me. My gender expression is male. It is just this in between status that is so difficult. Yet I know that I am who I am suppose to be and am happy in that. I must say this who know what the future might bring to me, but I'm getting prepared for it. I think this status in TG is more genderblending than anything else at least as I see it. We work with what we have and make the best of our circumstances.

[bigbutchmistie]

I love reading this thread.

[Jet]

I am not FTM. I am transgendered and a straight man in a "part-womanly" body. When I transition I will be FTM, literally. Until then, TG only. That's my definition I won't bend on it. I do not ID as lesbian, I have never have been one. I cannot be with a woman as a woman or identify with women as a woman. I've danced around this thing all my life and I am taking necessary steps to compliment who I am on the inside. I'm not sure how i will live my life after being on T. I do not require top surgery, and i don't know how i feel about bottom surgery. Oddly, the most accepting people so far are straight and bisexual women. Lesbians have not been accepting of me and neither have gay men.

[Greyson]

Originally Posted by Andrew, Jr.

For the name and gender change...personally anyone can change their name legally in Maryland. The gender change on the legal documentation is not so easily done. According to my attorney there is one case pending in the court system now. And it is because the judge in the case is requiring medical documentation of not only hormones, but of top and bottom surgeries. Leave it to Maryland to be a major pain in the ass.

For me, I want both the name and gender change at once because of the financial costs involved.

Btw, I am who I say I am. I dare anyone to tell me otherwise.

Andrew

FYI, I was having a conversation recently with a guy from Transgender Law Center in San Francisco. There is currently a judge on the bench in Los County that is also requiring that all FTMs that come to his court show documentation of both bottom and top surgery.

So far, the judge is getting away with this requirement. I am pretty sure there must be some guy down in Southern Cal that will challenge this. Currently in the entire State of California one must have Top surgery and taking T in order to get a court order of gender change.

Finally google the Williams Institute at UCLA. This institute is all about LGBTQ policy and law. Get on their mailing list. They have some pertinent and interesting stuff.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Words

One of the reasons why Blue is my hero is that Hy has chosen to not transition in spite of the obvious advantages of doing so. Yes, Hy is on T, yes, Hy hopes to eventually have top surgery, in both cases, because Hy wants to 'masculinize'. BUT, Hy has no intention of ever IDing as male because Hy isn't male and is happy to live forever in TG (third gendered) land, even if doing that means constantly having to 'explain' Hymself.

That, to me, takes a lot of courage and I am extremely proud of Hym.

Words

I appreciate this post as it gets to areas that I feel just get side-lined in terms of female masculinity. I also feel that the 3rd Gendered get lumped into transgendered identities. Third-genered individuals are not transgendered and going to transition out of a specific gender composite that is just fine as it is and not on (or desiring to be) on T, not interested in any gendered surgical procedures (although, as Words points out, many desire top surgery). Third- gendered people embrace the female gender identification (may or may not use hy, hym, etc. and are comfortable with themselves as is). Their sexuality may be or not be lesbian. And they are not inter-gendered.

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that transgendered theory and studies have advanced acceptance of the full spectrum of gender identities. However, the 3rd-gendered really don't belong within the classification of transgendered and remain proudly female. Yet, are constantly shoved into trans status.

Diversity within diversity can be a lonely and misunderstood place to be.

[Greyson]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

I appreciate this post as it gets to areas that I feel just get side-lined in terms of female masculinity. I also feel that the 3rd Gendered get lumped into transgendered identities. Third-genered individuals are not transgendered and going to transition out of a specific gender composite that is just fine as it is and not on (or desiring to be) on T, not interested in any gendered surgical procedures (although, as Words points out, many desire top surgery). Third- gendered people embrace the female gender identification (may or may not use hy, hym, etc. and are comfortable with themselves as is). Their sexuality may be or not be lesbian. And they are not inter-gendered.

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that transgendered theory and studies have advanced acceptance of the full spectrum of gender identities. However, the 3rd-gendered really don't belong within the classification of transgendered and remain proudly female. Yet, are constantly shoved into trans status.

Diversity within diversity can be a lonely and misunderstood place to be.

AtLast, the part of your post that I underlined, I am confused or perhaps it is just a disagreement. In my understanding I thought to be transgender means you transgress gender lines. I consider myself to be a third gender. I do see myself as Transgender but not Transsexual. Yes, I think I hold ideas very similar to Blue but I am taking the step to legally change my gender. I know I was born into the body of a female and without T or surgery represented as masculine. I too like you do not believe masculinity is strictly the pervue of men.

I think many of us here share similar ideas but we just go down different paths to come to the same or similar beliefs, ideas. I hope you take this post in the spirit of which it is meant to be. Only a difference of opinion. Not a mean spirited calling out.

[Greyson]

( I tried to add this to my above post but the thought came to me after the 30 minute period of time to edit.)

In my thinking one does not have to take T or have surgeries to be Transgender. If you challenge, trangress, break out of the box of what the dominate culture says is how a particular gender is expressed then you come under the umbrella of Transgender. To be Trangender does not necessarily imply you are no longer a woman. To me it implies you are not restricting your expression of your gender to the assigned box. This sort of thinking does stretch or break the belief in the binary.

Sorry if I am not articulating this in a comprehensive and linear manner. I am thinking with my finger tips on the keyboard.

[Soon]

At Last,

Your post was in reference to Word's post who stated that Blue identifies as third-gendered.

You stated: "Third-genered (sic) individuals are not transgendered and going to transition out of a specific gender composite that is just fine as it is and not on (or desiring to be) on T"


You also stated that third gendered people are "not interested in any gendered surgical procedures (although you do say some desire top surgery--but this IS a major surgical procedure that is considered a gendered one)....and are "comfortable with themselves as is."

[Bold Emphasis mine]


-----------------------------
However, Word's post regarding Blue--who identifies as third-gendered--seems to contradict your definition and perception of this term.

Blue is taking T, is desirous of top surgery and refers to hymself in a way other than with female pronouns seems to undercut what YOUR definition of being third gendered is--there does seem steps of transition taken to, as Word's puts it, "masculinize" -- despite Blue not identifying as male.

Isn't the example of Blue a bit at odds with what your definition of third-gendered is?

I have no issue with Blue's identification at all; however, it doesn't appear that Blue even falls under what your interpretation of third-gendered is.


I also don't understand how you get to decide that being third gendered is not also considered transgendered -- for some (not to mention the medical establishment).

Finally, I don't understand you positing that all people who consider themselves transgendered DO take steps to transition. Many don't and some may take some steps but not others.

[Apocalipstic]

Is it possible that the definitions are different for each person?

[Soon]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

Is it possible that the definitions are different for each person?

I agree--what is third-gendered or transgendered for one may be different for another. (in terms of pronouns, steps to transition or not, and male or female identification--or neither).

That is why I was a bit put off by At Last's post who seemed to have the parameters laid out for the definition of both third gendered and transgendered.

[Liam]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

Is it possible that the definitions are different for each person?

Quite.

Just a gentle reminder that this is a thread about FTMs who cannot or choose not to medically transition. I'm not saying that all but FTMs are excluded, but rather that is the focus of this particular thread.

[Greyson]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

Is it possible that the definitions are different for each person?

Yes, I think it is possible for each person to have a different definition for the word "Transgender" or "FTM."

But..... at some point I think it is necessary for us all to at least know what is the general accepted meaning of words. How else are we going to try and communicate some of this stuff?

[Greyson]

Originally Posted by Liam

Quite.

Just a gentle reminder that this is a thread about FTMs who cannot or choose not to medically transition. I'm not saying that all but FTMs are excluded, but rather that is the focus of this particular thread.

FTMs or at least some FTMs are Transgender.

[Liam]

Originally Posted by Greyson

FTMs or at least some FTMs are Transgender.

No argument from me, on that one Greyson.

From the Oxford dictionary:

transgender |tranzˈjendər; trans-| (also transgendered)
adjective
identified with a gender other than the biological one : a transgender activist and author.

If we agree to accept that definition, all FTMs are transgender.

However, as I understand it, AtLast is not discussing those that identify with a gender other than the biological one.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Liam

Quite.

Just a gentle reminder that this is a thread about FTMs who cannot or choose not to medically transition. I'm not saying that all but FTMs are excluded, but rather that is the focus of this particular thread.

Right, so sorry.
I will back out of course

It just seemed that different people had definitions for themselves.

Thanks for the reminder....off I go.