09-23-2010, 03:21 PM | #41 | |
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Do you think that it is important to look someone in the eye and tell them they have no hold anymore? This is problematic for me, because the person who abused me is dead. I am trying to understand and get past my anger for the people who placed me in that vulnerable position and those who knew what was going on and did nothing to help me. I have reached the point where I am just profoundly sad rather than angry.
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09-23-2010, 03:38 PM | #42 | |
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I can actually only think of one instance in my life that really relates to this subject. I am not a person that becomes offended by much of anything, since I see little use in feeling offended by an act or a word or a person. That would be a failure to understand the interpretation of each person's deeds or words as a part of a certain system, and I don't think any given system has any particular moral merit. If I am to be offended, we must both be operating under the same system, and my own does not recognise offense. Most of the time when someone commits some kind of wrong against me, whether theft, backstabbing, violence or any similar act, I don't find myself thinking about forgiveness. Once the act is done, it is done, and in most cases those people have admitted to what they've done, though whether they've considered it an offense is another story. Those who have not, I haven't felt the need to begrudge, and upon realising that the act was due to some problem they were having, I've even attempted to help them overcome it, since I see more value in overcoming than blaming or forgiving. Every negative action/action that infringes upon the freedom of another that a human being commits has a cause, and often that cause is some kind of negative event that affected them, or perhaps a chemical imbalance and that person may keeping acting a certain way as long as they hold on to that negative past, negative influence or refuse to recognise their condition. Even for them, it is not about forgiving, but about overcoming that event or influence. If that person doesn't take the intiative to free themselves, then I cease to give a flying fuck. I don't forgive them because forgiveness is not an issue, but they are rarely, if ever, brought to mind, and when they are brought to mind, I won't feel any anger against them. There is one person on this earth that is the epitome of this, and that person is my own father, who was negatively affected by his own father before him. This is why I take issue with victim/victimiser arguments, because very often victims continue to perpetuate the cycle, whether becoming aggressors themselves, or by continuing to remain stuck in the victim mentality. We are also talking about the acts themselves versus those who commit those acts, and we are also talking about placing meaning upon otherwise meaningless acts. Going back to the original OE of the Lord's Prayer, this notion of "forgiv[ing] us our guilts" seems to be like some kind of confessional of erasing the acts so that one may continue toward some good grace. Furthermore, what is it that we are forgiving? In the original OE Lord's Prayer, it is the guilt that is forgiven, which has many connotations, but largely centres around a person's own perception of a deed they themselves have committed, or which has been committed toward another. Going back to how this affects my refusal to forgive my father, I don't think the forgiveness of some "guilty deed" works for either of us: a) because he does not admit to having ever committed any wrong against me, and b) because I don't believe in his guilt or that some moral transgression occurred, but simply that the cycle affected me negatively and that I need to overcome it. So what else do we forgive, if not a guilt? An act? If so, my father continues to deny he was ever physically abusive toward me, and, on top of that, his family has erased the acts they witnessed over many years from their minds. As for myself, despite that very few people in my family will even recognise my childhood, I still know that my father committed these acts. Do they need to be forgiven? What is forgiveness and is what I experience even remotely related to this rather subjective and archaic term? Do I continue to be angry with or resent my father? It's hard to say if I feel anything toward him at all, and I'm not sure that I continue to hold him in low regard because of his past actions or his present actions. I know all his actions and words, both present and past, are driven by his own intense sense of insecurity, which was the result of his own father. His insecurity in the past caused him to be physically abusive towards me and toward other children, while his insecurity today causes him to refuse self-examination, education and the ability to discuss anything without becoming emotionally invested, because his false sense of pride rests on a certain notion of himself. I know his insecurities because they plagued me as a child and as a teenager and even in my early 20's. I'd been stripped of my dignity repeatedly as a child, and was mortified of being stripped of it again. But unlike him I combated it, and today he, nor his past actions are of any importance to me, though in many respects my childhood doesn't exist for me, anymore. I continue to fight some of the remaining symptoms, but the symptoms are not him, they are not his actions, they are the result of things long rendered irrelevant, that have no logical reason for continued existence. The important thing is that I continue to fight against those symptoms (rather than against the past or him), while he resigned himself to them. I think that is why I cannot claim to "forgive" him, while he is rarely in my thoughts, rarely in my actions, rarely in my life. Because I know that in order to overcome, one needs to fight. Nothing I can ever say to him will help him with his demons, nor erase the past. I know the feeling of a thousand tons of guilt and insecurity weighing on your mind, and its enough to drive you insane. But I've also learned to break through it with a strong awareness of my own insecurities, weaknesses, strengths, of my own situation and of what got me here to begin with. It's about having the courage to face that which you're most afraid to face in yourself. I think my refusal to "forgive" (and I am still not convinced this is the right word) is my refusal to allow such a past to be an excuse for actions in the future, because if he is excused, then I am excused. I do not excuse myself, but evolve mself. What I don't "forgive" in him is the fact that he allows his past to be his future. As such, forgiveness of myself is a non-issue. Because the result of my childhood was the incessant feeling of guilt for no particular reason, I've come to see guilt in relation to myself as a psychological symptom rather than of anything practical that needs release. I think we need to overcome our own regretable acts, rather than forgive them, since there seems to be another kind of resignation attached to that forgiveness. Again, with me there is no release attached to forgiveness, as there seems to be with others. The closest thing to a ritual I have is destroying myself and any "beliefs" I may have so as to rebuild from the bottom up; some shadow of Cartesian or Derridean evolution. As such, I don't feel I am ever the same person that I was yesterday, and so I cannot really resign to any kind of forgiveness, since there is always that element of self-improvement. I knew less yesterday than I do today, and know less today than I will tomorrow. If I am constantly evolving then forgiveness cannot exist. Whatever my self-perceived fault was yesterday, I am ammending today. Thanks for this topic. I really enjoyed responding as well as the opportunity to examine my own thoughts on the subject. I hope I did not relinquish to much information, since that wasn't really the intent so much as to examine a portion of myself that most relates to the subject. Thanks again for the through-provoking topic. |
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09-23-2010, 04:04 PM | #43 | |
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Lots here to ponder! One area that I want to comment on is about victimization and perpetuation of abuse. The big problem here is that there are just no reliable studies based upon scientific method to demonstrate any relationship of victims as perps other than those that have been reported and prosecuted. So, what about all of the people that were indeed abused (in various ways) and do not offend? We have no way of knowing what these numbers really are. There are anecdotal reports, but, that just doesn't give us much to go on. What is sad about this to me is not having any kind of data to study how and why many victims of abuse do not fit the common belief structures of once a victim, then an offender. They do not go on to offend. I was raised myself by parents that were abused and did not offend. In fact, something that was true of them was an uncanny sense of picking up on threats of abuse by others around myself and my siblings along with fierce protectiveness. In fact, I really listen to people I know with abuse histories in terms of their clueing in on a perpetrator. If they say something is creepy about someone, I take note. What are the differences in how these people navigate in the world and what is behind their ability to transcend the common stereotype of the abuse cycle? This is a big missing link! I often think about what are the adaptive traits of someone that has an abuse history and does not offend? What is it about their nature that has provided them with the ability to see that they have choices about behavior? Last edited by AtLast; 09-23-2010 at 04:06 PM. |
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09-23-2010, 04:16 PM | #44 | |
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My goal in life is to be as different from my abuser as I can be. Thank you for saying what you did because many of us make it our life's goal to be different, to break the cycle. We know when someone creeps us out...we know the signs. Sometimes when we are weak we might get involved with an abuser again, but we somehow manage to survive it and get out as quickly as possible. We are survivors. We have faced our worst fear and survived and that we survived does not mean we are bound to repeat the cycle.
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09-23-2010, 04:20 PM | #45 | |
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09-23-2010, 04:38 PM | #46 |
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See and here is my issue. I fail to see not forgiving as negative. As out of balance. As stopping growth. I think I am a wonderfully amazing positive person. This is hurting me too much, I am going to bow out of this.
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09-23-2010, 04:42 PM | #47 |
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Isadora please take care of yourself. I do not see not forgiving as bad either. I think we might have a different take on it than others. I do know that forgiveness is a big part of my spiritual practice. I think there is no "right" way. Please don't take others ways of doing it as any comment on yours. I don't. And even if it is, they aren't living my life.
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09-23-2010, 05:03 PM | #48 | |
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The way I balance it all is, that I forgive what I can, and make no excuses or feel an ounce of guilt for what I cannot. Forgiveness is personal for me, and a private thing. I do not judge others on thier abilities to forgive or not. And I cant stand and wont listen long to someone preaching to me how I "NEED" to forgive. |
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09-23-2010, 05:07 PM | #49 | |
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You're correct that there are little to no studies regarding those who have not come into contact with the law, but, if I recall correctly, there have been numerous studies done linking victims of abuse to certain psychological disorders that later cause them to commit acts that may or may not be punished by law. I know that there are studies regarding how traumatic childhood events are linked to triggering hereditary forms of depression, bipolar disorder, schizophrenia among others that would have otherwise remained untriggered. How much this plays into continuing the cycle, I do not know. I agree that there are many out there who do take control of their behaviour, and, therefore, their future. I think you pose a very good question though, about what it is that causes a person to see that they have a choice as far as how they choose to behave after the fact. I'm not sure I can really answer what exactly it is that causes a person to reflect, and therefore, choose to break a certain cycle. I think a big part of it is breaking out of the mentality that one is a victim, and into the understanding that one does have control. I'm at a loss as to what the missing puzzle piece is. In other words, I think that experiencing abuse can result in an individual who either becomes an abuser him/herself and/or continues to consider him/herself a victim, and/or continues to consider him/herself worthless after the fact, or merely someone who is negatively affected by past abuse within their daily life, given the presence of a certain combination of factors...I remain at a loss as to what those factors are, or even what factors result in someone who manages to reflect and take control of their own behaviour. Very good, question, though. I'll think about it some more and try to add something later. |
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09-23-2010, 05:12 PM | #50 |
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alot of great posts.
i dont usually forgive after betrayal. but that is just me. |
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09-23-2010, 05:16 PM | #51 | |
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Wonderfully put and very much where I stand on the issue. I've seen some other very interesting posts that I'll need to mull over.
I would like to say that I certainly don't think my way is the only/best/"right" way. But forgiveness and growth and experience are tremendously personal. Some posts are resonating deeply for me and some posts are intriguing and thought-provoking because of how different they are from my personal experiences. AtLastHome, I totally agree that forgiveness is a spiritual balance for me. Moving past negative energy and letting go allow me a freedom to grow and develop because of something challenging or hurtful. As you said, this has everything to do with living a positive life with a healthy outlook (healthy meaning good for me and my path). It's not about the other person. They have their own things to figure out and I don't have a hand in that process. Forgiveness, to me, is when I'm standing at a crossroads. Neither path is right or wrong, but one leads to emotional release and one leads to holding onto something (so I can obsess over it, or file it away for later, or learn from it, etc). When I choose to release it (and it might be something small and that crossroad lasted one millisecond or it might be something big and it's taken me months or years to reach the crossroads), it's no longer something I focus on or think about and I shift my energy towards something new. I really am learning a lot from all of you. The various definitions, perspectives, and thoughts are really deep and personal and I'm seeing things through others eyes. Powerful stuff. Quote:
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09-23-2010, 06:09 PM | #52 | |
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I have to say that I do believe that some things are not forgiveable for me. I can reason the logic out in my head that forgiving is for the one who is damaged but somehow when it comes down to it....I have wanted to murder some people, I have wanted to rip them to pieces and that scumbag fucker that did that to the little 4 year old girl in my mind does not deserve that forgiveness....maybe thats my own fuckedupness I dont know its just I know intrinsically that I could not forgive someone like that.....Isadora I want to say that everything you wrote resonated with me... I have to say that in that specific situation....with what I know about myself.....I would have exacted an eye for an eye...and I would be in prison... |
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09-23-2010, 07:00 PM | #53 | ||
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i know you are going in a completely different direction with this than i am going to talk about, but this statement struck a tangential chord in me that i wanted to share: During my adolescence and young adulthood, my mother and i went through a massive power struggle that was very damaging to me...it is not a new story but her personal issues with perfectionism and security meant that she clung to her authority for its own sake, and was never able to see past the insult of my questioning her and actually listen to me. She had a scorched-earth policy on any questioning of her and this meant that there was nothing too horrible to say in an argument if it meant she would win. Eventually i was hospitalized for three months for depression, substance abuse, and self-mutilation. i spent my twenties trying to escape the hold of those damages by doing everything i could to be the opposite kind of person she is. Then i got to my thirties and realized that the persona i had created in doing this bore no resemblance to my authentic self, and that my authentic self is actually a lot like her. My forgiveness process has consisted of accepting her in me, and learning to value those qualities objectively Now i mostly feel like what happened during my youth was extremely unfortunate, but mostly inevitable due to the way she herself was raised and the demons she struggles with that are totally about her and just spilled out all over me in a damaging and dangerous, but not malicious, way Quote:
aargh i am terrified of step nine. This is probably why i am spending so much time on step three! Forgiveness in general is a very fraught issue for me. My mother's scorched-earth tactics, described above, have been echoed by a succession of similarly abusive partners. I am pathologically afraid of conflict and confrontation, because my experience has always been that questions and complaints start arguments that will quickly escalate out of all control. To avoid this i automatically "forgive" everything. I have just learned that taking any even the most minor stand on an issue means gambling everything- my partners always learn that if they just escalate any issue to the point where they threaten to break up with me i will fold- even if i feel passionately about something, when they put it into the context of "either you buy me a playstation or i am leaving" i will think "i don't want to buy the playstation but it seems a trivial thing to break up over" and hand over my wallet. But why do i take that onto myself? If they go to that place over a playstation it is them being trivial, not me! But i can always see how they are not going to stop until they get their way and they are always willing to go lower than i am...and i am a very peace/security/comfort loving person and i just want the argument to end so i can crawl under a rock out of their way somewhere. This looks like forgiveness because i have stopped complaining but it isn't really. And being so afraid of conflict means i never complain, and i end up with so much stockpiled hurt that there gets to be no way to possibly address it ALL, and the only thing to do is leave. I think i have left relationships that could have been saved because of this (my most recent ex was not abusive, but i was so traumatized by the time we got together that i was practically a robot. i started feeling unhappy 8 months into the relationship. if i could have told her we could have worked through each issue as it arose. i did not and they piled up and eventually there was that straw...) in terms of becoming an offender i am facing this about myself, too. My self-esteem is LOW. In the past i have used relationships and sex to fill that hole. Also i am very concerned with security and safety and having a "daddy" to hide behind always seems like a route to safety. This means that i have gotten into relationships because i need to be in a relationship and not because i truly love the person. Many times i have been willing to accept anyone who likes me because it is so unbelievable to me that someone could like me, i feel like i can't pass on any opportunity because i may never have another one. This means i have used those people. I have not loved them for who they are, i have loved them for what they represent. I have not been able to see who they are because i was afraid if i looked too closely i would see something that didn't fit with what i needed them to be This is me abusing them. And their awareness of how badly i needed to be with someone, anyone, is how they knew how to control me. And their subconscious awareness that i was using them made it that much easier to abuse me...and it has been a cycle that repeats endlessly. I need to forgive myslef for abusing them, and i need to forgive them based on how my using them set us both up for dysfunction. i have recognized it though! After my last breakup i swore to stay out of relationships for at least a year so i could unpack all my baggage and stop doing this to people. That year was up last Saturday. Unfortunately i didn't actually start therapy until 8 months into that year so i probably still have another eight months to go AT LEAST and who knows how long it will really be, because right now my thinking any time a potential relationship glimmers is "IT'S A TRAP!!!!! RUN!" ok i see that i have rambled on about a lot of stuff besides forgiveness forgive me?
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09-23-2010, 07:52 PM | #54 | |
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Although, sometimes it is a good idea to make it clear that we are speaking about our own experiences and goals- and not placing ideas on others. I hope you remain here because you always contribute so much to discussions. |
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09-23-2010, 08:25 PM | #55 | |
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Not to mention the development of learned helplessness that can keep us from breaking feelings of remaining a victim. One of the things I really like about the 3rd/4th wave feminist character (Lisbeth Salander) in Larsson's Millennium Trilogy is how she transcends her victimization, and not simply survives, but indeed, gets even! Now, in real-life, some of her tactics would just land her in prison and rightfully so- but her perpetrators certainly did not serve time for their abuse. I'm thinking more about her personality development in terms of knowing she does not have to remain under the control of her abusers. Sort of interesting that Larsson wrote these books as the result of witnessing a gang rape of a woman when he was 15 years old (which left him deeply concerned with the horrors of sexual violence against both women and men- the original title of the forst book in the trilogy was "Men Who Hate Women" which was changed to "The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo" - probably a marketing thing...). |
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09-23-2010, 09:22 PM | #56 | |||
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I don't forgive and I really don't think it's hindered me overall. Sure, I could probably be a bit more zen-like if I forgave more but I'm okay. Some days, great. And that is good enough for me. It's all about what we need, individually, to get through, isn't it? Quote:
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09-23-2010, 10:54 PM | #57 | |
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I don't feel imbalanced if I don't forgive. I do ceremony to remove the negative energy created by the harm done against me or I have done to others whether intentional or not.
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09-25-2010, 09:39 AM | #58 | |
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As I integrate the parts of myself that I see are similar and formed by my abuser AND objectively valuable it helps to bring peace to the process, at least for me. Thank you for saying this
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10-03-2010, 08:18 AM | #59 |
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Bitter liberating pill
What are your thoughts on forgiveness?
Forgiveness is very tightly tied to the idea of acceptance. There is nothing I can do to change the past or the things I perceive as negative that happened to me. I can only accept that they happened, attempt to integrate them into myself and move on. This is a process and in some examples it has and does take many years in my life to process and to move to acceptance. I have to practice mindfulness and to consistently put down the anger, resentment, bitterness, etc that being harmed has caused me, it is something I have to do daily, hell hourly in some cases. I have to return and return and return to opening my hand, to not clinging to my ego and my ego’s pain, I am strong enough and expansive enough to release the pain of my harm and forgive my antagonist. What does forgiveness mean to you? Releasing to verifying levels of success, the anger and resentment surrounding instances where in my estimation I have been wronged. Forgiveness does not mean condoning the behavior that occurred, nor does it necessarily mean that the individual who wronged me will be allowed back into my life if they are toxic. What does it feel like to you? Sometimes forgiveness feels like a betrayal to my ego. Sometimes it feels like a bitter, hard thing. Sometimes it feels like a release of a weight pressing down on me. Sometimes it doesn’t feel like anything. Do you have methods or rituals of forgiveness? I have a few as out of necessity I have had to practice much forgiveness in my life. One is to write an event that I experienced that I need to extend forgiveness for down from my antagonist’s eyes. This helps me see what they were experiencing. I also say “I forgive you” to people who apologize to me. I am trying to move away from the nondescript and relatively meaningless (to me) “that’s okay” because sometimes it is most certainly NOT ok. To use the words in a formal way helps me process, saying “I forgive you” or “I grant you forgiveness” adds a gravitas that sometimes is called for. For big things and deep past wounds a formal ritual I practice for viewing with compassion for the person who wronged me is to visualize the person who wronged me as a child before life and time corrupted them and caused them to harm me. I do this visualization while looking into the flame of a white candle for many nights starting at the new moon and lasting until the full moon. Then I write a letter to the person who wronged me expressing my forgiveness and compassion (even if that forgiveness and compassion is small, hard and rudimentary). I then take the candle, the letter and anything else I think I need to include and throw it into a moving body of water and walk away without turning back or I burn it completely. Do you feel there are times when forgiveness is not an option? I feel that there are times when my ego throws a fit about the harm that came to me because it doesn’t want to release its pain, but ultimately I must practice forgiveness for myself. If I choose not to forgive and to hoard the wrongs against me I am poisoning myself. In order for me to move on and not give those who harmed me any more power in my life I need to remove them as they harmed me from my mind and from my heart, I must let them go from me. They are not treasure to be kept or goodness to be savored but rough lessons to be learned. By choosing not to forgive I am allowing those who harmed me continuing power and pain in my life and to me that is not acceptable. Do you forgive frequently or rarely? Frequently Do you forgive yourself? This is a hard one for me. I have to practice letting go of things that I am inclined to be unforgiving of, daily, and hourly. I must practice the same compassion and unattachment for myself that I extend to others, this can be a pisser. Do you seek forgiveness for things you regret? For things I regret I try to make amends and I express to the individual I have wronged my apology. I cannot cause someone else to confer grace or forgiveness to me, I can only (and am only responsible for by the way) being honest about what I did to them that hurt them and being sincerely remorseful or regretful about the wrong doing. It is their business to choose or not choose forgiveness for me and I cannot cause that to happen. If you have kids or have young people in your life, what do/would you teach them about forgiveness? That although it is hard it leads to freedom from past injuries and that to refuse forgiveness can make them soul-sick. I would also teach them any techniques that work for me. Any other thoughts on forgiveness? Forgiveness is not the same as condoning what then individual did to you that wronged you. There are ways I have been harmed in my life that were empirically wrong and could be called evil. My forgiveness does nothing to diminish that, it only releases me, my soul, my ego, myself from squirreling away the resentment and ongoing pain from that injustice so I may move forward and not define myself by the ill that happened to me but by the substance of my life that is greater than an event (or series of events).
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10-03-2010, 05:37 PM | #60 | |
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i use this strategy a lot, and not neccessarily for forgiveness- i work with some really dysfunctional people and it helps my aggravation level with them when i superimpose their adult behavior on a mental image of them as a child. Sometimes the only way i get through supervisors meeting is by turning the entire board room into a nursery
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