Abuse in butch-femme relationships

[Dude]

Originally Posted by dancer611

So you do not allow for self defense? I was supposed to allow her to drunkenly attack me??!

I didn't mean that to sound rude, at all. It's just that people keep saying I should have done something different, and I'm not sure what that was. I was screaming and crying, but no one came; I had no phone to call anyone; and I could not just "walk away" because she was trapping and following me, and/or pinning me down or putting her hand over my mouth. So what on earth else was I supposed to do, if I'm not allowed to ever lay a hand on anyone?

Now's your time to do something different.
Stay in the reality of how bad that felt and dont go back.

First you were making excuses for her now you are telling us how bad it was.
We believe you and we arent the enemy.

[CherylNYC]

Originally Posted by dancer611

So you do not allow for self defense? I was supposed to allow her to drunkenly attack me??!

I didn't mean that to sound rude, at all. It's just that people keep saying I should have done something different, and I'm not sure what that was. I was screaming and crying, but no one came; I had no phone to call anyone; and I could not just "walk away" because she was trapping and following me. So what on earth else was I supposed to do, if I'm not allowed to ever lay a hand on anyone?

You've made some interesting statements. First of all, not many of the above posts mentioned your slap. Most of the posts have simply said that you MUST NOT return to your abusive ex. Staying away from that dangerous person is the most important advice everyone here has given you.

You speak about your single instance of slapping your ex as self defense. First, what on earth makes you think, even now, that slapping a violent person, who is twice your size, who has threatened you with a weapon, and who has made you fear for your life, is a defensive act? One of the reasons I think you should get into therapy and not a new girlfriend, is because that act still seems to make sense to you. Plus, you seem tempted to re-engage with your abuser.

I'm sorry if I sound overly harsh. I don't believe you've abused your ex, but I do believe you've engaged in a toxic pattern with her. Physically engaging as you've described with an abusive person twice your size seems to be your pattern in this relationship. Get out and get help.

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by dancer611

So you do not allow for self defense? I was supposed to allow her to drunkenly attack me??!

I didn't mean that to sound rude, at all. It's just that people keep saying I should have done something different, and I'm not sure what that was. I was screaming and crying, but no one came; I had no phone to call anyone; and I could not just "walk away" because she was trapping and following me, and/or pinning me down or putting her hand over my mouth. So what on earth else was I supposed to do, if I'm not allowed to ever lay a hand on anyone?

Hi Dancer,

I get what you're saying to an extent.

I think that if you are being attacked, you have the right to defend yourself....up to and including being violent in return.

However, just for me, when you go back again and again even after this has happened....and then you react with violence yourself....now you're in a mutually toxic and, yes, abusive situation.

Once someone has been violent or abusive with you once....and you go back...it isn't all on her. You need counseling too (in my opinion)....and going back and giving more and more chances is inviting the abuse to continue.

I wish you well with this....and my advice is what you've already heard. Run far, run fast, do not look back....and get the counseling you need....because you truly do need to see your part in this too so that it never happens again.

Hugs,
Jo

[*Anya*]

Dancer, everyone has given you the benefit of their knowlege and experience many times over in all of these posts.

It is totally up to you whether or not you chose to avail yourself of the feedback that you have received.

For those of us that have lived through abusive relationships, we understand the pull of a toxic relationship and also understand the tendency to defend both our own behavior and actions, as well as that of our abuser.

All of us only wish you the very best and hope that you find your way to a happier future for yourself.

[julieisafemme]

I know this is against the TOS but I feel in is necessary in the context of this discussion.

Dancer you have started a lot of threads. One is about where are the butches. One is about how to attract a butch when you feel insecure doing so. This one is about a butch who hurt you. It seems like you are all over the map here. I am posting because I was young and insecure once and made a choice to stay with a man who was not a good fit for me. I was insecure and confused and felt like he knew better than anyone. The truth was that I did not know myself. The last thing I should have been doing is being in a relationship with anyone.

I agree with everyone else that the best thing for you to do is to take some time to be with yourself. You are young and there is somuch out there for you to learn and explore that does not involve partnering with someone. I wish someone had said this to me or if they did, that I would have listened. Therapy can be transformative experience. You can work out these things in a safe space with boundaries. I am so lucky I found my therapist and that she was a gifted professional who gave me the space to work out a lot of things in a totally bounded, safe space. I wish you the best of luck and hope you will listen to the many wise people here who are speaking from experience.

[Dude]

Originally Posted by Dude

People really do die sometimes. Sometimes because they stay, sometimes when they leave and sometimes on the inside from being beat down for way too long.
Dont fuck around with your life. The truth is never gentle in abusive situations.

Sometimes when they fight back ,they get to kill
or be killed.

I met someone who's ex shot themself over the phone. They were
long distance ,she had to call 911 , she lived ,they got back together, this lady didnt get a second date with me after that story.
woah to crazy kind of love
No Thank You!

[aishah]

we are not the best place to be turning to for help/advice. we don't know you that well, and even among friends who DO know you well, sometimes it is hard to give/receive advice when you don't know the full picture and when our own experiences with abuse are heavily influencing our response. if the purpose of posting here is just to get your story out or open up a general discussion on ipv in butch/femme relationships, that's one thing. but it seems like you are looking for some sort of advice or affirmation of what you did/what you should do next, and i'm not sure this is the best environment to get that.

you need to seek out a therapist and/or a support group with experience dealing with intimate partner violence in queer relationships. if you don't know of any i can help you find some via pm. but honestly that will be way more helpful than anything we can tell you.

So, am I crazy? What can I do in this situation? Should I cut off contact with her? If we are meant to be, is it worth it at all to try to fix anything or continue in the future?

you're not crazy. leave, get counseling, encourage her to get counseling, maintain boundaries for the sake of your well-being.

[Toughy]

A story has been told. Both sides were physically violent which we are told after our sympathy has been captured. We are told one side of the story. It was the femme side. What is the other side?. What if a butch came and told the same story?

I hate this kind of thread. It leaves many impressions that are not always deserved. Lots of RUN NOW before you DIE.....and then the 'I hit back in self defense' story starts begins to appear from the injured party. Very little attention is paid and what there is has to do with self defense......

either it is wrong for anyone to hit anyone or it's ok to hit sometimes in certain circumstances or it's wrong if a masculine person hits a feminine person but ok if a feminine person hits a masculine person......

from the story told..............both sides are fucked up and both sides need to deal with their own shit before they ever try to have a successful relationship with anyone......

[Random]

Originally Posted by Toughy

A story has been told. Both sides were physically violent which we are told after our sympathy has been captured. We are told one side of the story. It was the femme side. What is the other side?. What if a butch came and told the same story?

I hate this kind of thread. It leaves many impressions that are not always deserved. Lots of RUN NOW before you DIE.....and then the 'I hit back in self defense' story starts begins to appear from the injured party. Very little attention is paid and what there is has to do with self defense......

either it is wrong for anyone to hit anyone or it's ok to hit sometimes in certain circumstances or it's wrong if a masculine person hits a feminine person but ok if a feminine person hits a masculine person......

from the story told..............both sides are fucked up and both sides need to deal with their own shit before they ever try to have a successful relationship with anyone......

Nods....

Years ago I was a smacker...

I thought it was CUTE and girly to smack my butch on the shoulder when she annoyed me... In that.. *Oh YOU, stop that* kind of way...

Never thought a thing about it...

Until she finally said... Will you stop hitting me?

Hitting her? I didn't hit her... I smacked her on the shoulder...

Then I thought about it... I was putting my hands on my partner in a not so loving way and it hurt/annoyed her...

Yep, I was hitting her... Techn is could be considered abuse...

Made me sick to my stomake and I've never smacked anyone like that again...

Non negotiated hitting is a no no...

[JAGG]

Originally Posted by dancer611

So you do not allow for self defense? I was supposed to allow her to drunkenly attack me??!

I didn't mean that to sound rude, at all. It's just that people keep saying I should have done something different, and I'm not sure what that was. I was screaming and crying, but no one came; I had no phone to call anyone; and I could not just "walk away" because she was trapping and following me, and/or pinning me down or putting her hand over my mouth. So what on earth else was I supposed to do, if I'm not allowed to ever lay a hand on anyone?

Always defend yourself. Turn into a wild tazmanian devil and unleash the fury of a 1000 wars on them. If you had done that from day 1 the coward would have never bothered you again. And she certainly wouldn't be trying to get back with you, I promise you that!!!
You said you slapped her when she wasn't drunk (and you felt guilty), then you say you were protecting yourself during a drunken attack. Which one was it? Whatever, it's your story you tell it. You started this thread to ask for advice or opinions. So don't be getting defensive and grouchy with people who give you the advice you are solicting. First of all it's free advice secondly most of us do care. Your anger is not with us, direct it towards your wonderful coward or yourself for allowing it . You have alot of misplaced emotions. You want to paint yourself up as a victim. But I have a news flash for you, you were only a victim the first time it happened. Anytime after that you are a volunteer. You had all my sympathy the first time it happened after that I just get annoyed.
We aren't trained therapists just people who care or have been there or know someone who has etc... we know what works for us.
I don't think anyone has the right to lay a finger on anyone else for any reason unless it's in self-defense. I highly doubt anyone here would advocate balling up in the fetal position and let yourself get plummeted instead of fighting back if you can. And even if they do, you asked for advice and you'll get it , lots of it, from all different points of view. Sometimes the ones that irk you the most, are the ones you should sit with for awhile and mull over. They probably have alot of truth to them, because the truth hurts if we have buried our heads in the sand too long.

[WickedFemme]

I'm going to try to keep this short and to the point... This is my story... I spent most of my adult life in unhealthy relationships until I sought therapy for myself. I used to play the victim role and that kept me in denial which allowed me to not take responsibility for my part in relationships. For me, being in my 20's and even my 30's were extremely painful. I didn't realize that I was looking to other people to fill an unmet need(s) within myself. I kept having experiences where I felt completely disappointed and kept blaming the other person. In the case of abuse, however, I know that I am not to blame for that regardless of my behaviors - no one has the power to make anyone do anything or feel anything. I had to own my own stuff and not take responsibility for someone else's stuff. It was difficult for me to come to the realization that I was unhealthy and extremely codependent. My core issues began in my childhood and kept playing out in my adult relationships. All I can say is that I am sooooo grateful that I got help and am able to function in a healthy manner in my adult relationships. I also know that I don't have to gossip or spread rumors about anyone anymore because that is 'toxic' and unfair regardless... especially if the other person isn't there to defend him/herself. Growing up is painful and i understand now that my past relationships are not the other persons' fault... I had a part as well. I harbored resentments and anger until I finally let that stuff go.

There have been some wonderful suggestions here and 'yes', running into another relationship is NOT the answer. The answer is doing the work on self and being a whole person... only then are you going to attract healthy whole people around you.

To the OP - I really understand and highly recommend you seek counseling for yourself... its really the only way. You won't feel better overnight because it took much longer than that to get to where you are now in your life, but it will get better. Fixing on relationships to feel whole or to avoid feelings of loneliness is not the answer... it's just a temporary fix and once the feelings of euphoria (high) is gone, you are left with yourself once again. Relationships can be like a drug and there are 12-step groups that can help like Codependents anonymous for example. I wish you well and hope that your 'path' is healthier than mine was. You show great courage putting yourself out there and i view that as a sign that you honestly do want help. Only an unbiased professionally trained person is going to be able to help you help yourself.

[WickedFemme]

here's the website for CoDA
http://www.coda.org/

[LaneyDoll]

Originally Posted by dancer611

I don't know how I'll meet another butch who meets all my emotional and physical and spiritual needs like she did, and like I did for her; who I can love as completely and connect to as deeply; who I can tell anything to without judgment; who will be interested in me and I in them, and we will both have eyes only for each other; who I can give my whole heart to and love unconditionally, and who will do the same for me. So, am I crazy? What can I do in this situation? Should I cut off contact with her? If we are meant to be, is it worth it at all to try to fix anything or continue in the future?

Originally Posted by dancer611

She was bearing down on me, using her size to intimidate me, and SHE HAD JUST PULLED A KNIFE ON ME AND THREATENED TO MURDER ME.

Originally Posted by dancer611

So what on earth else was I supposed to do, if I'm not allowed to ever lay a hand on anyone?

I think that if you read back to the replies that I quoted, you will answer all of your questions.

You are not crazy. If someone was attacking you, there may not have been much you could do. Yes, you should cut off contact with her. Any relationship with violence is NOT worth continuing.

So what do you do now? Learn from it, move on and be the best you can be-for yourself. Once you have everything where it should be in your life, someone will come into it and make it better. You will see. This is a lesson you learned so take that knowledge and use it to benefit yourself.

I promise that you will not be alone; but for the time that you are, it is better to be alone than fearful.

[dancer611]

I said she was drunk when she came into my apartment, which is why I asked her to leave.

[dancer611]

I thank you all for your advice. It is hard to convey the depth of something like this on a forum, obviously. I'm sorry if I offended anyone. Of course it's hard to hear that people think you're fucked up, or that you want sympathy, or that it's partly your "fault" for going back to an abuser. (On a side note, my original post had nothing to do with her being butch. Her large size did, because it was part of how she intimidated and controlled me. But size doesn't make you butch and I don't think it's any more okay for femmes to hit butches than the other way around). So many people on this thread said they experienced abuse and kept going back...are they all "fucked up" as well, or exaggerating what happened to them, or is it their "fault" that the abuse continued? This happens to thousands of people everywhere, and the tendency is to blame the victim or to question if they are lying. I knew all this, and yet I allowed myself to be dragged into this as she slowly broke down my self-esteem, telling me no one else would ever love me and isolating me from my family and friends until I was afraid and alone. I became reliant on her as this continued.

As for the question about "what would her side of the story be," she has finally admitted that she is abusive (with the help of her therapist) and possibly bipolar, and (very) recently admitted to me that she had been in jail previously for domestic violence, against a girlfriend and a police officer, and has had to attend mandatory anger management twice, and that other girlfriends had accused her of physical abuse as well. These girls were dragged into it as well, sometimes for years. So no, she would not disagree with what I said. I just don't know how I could have been so stupid.

For those of you who have not been abused, the guilt of a victim is so strong--I should have acted different, I should have made a better sandwich for her, I shouldn't have asked her to stop drinking, I shouldn't have cried and she wouldn't have done anything--that it becomes a constant cycle of beating yourself up. So to be questioned about if I was lying about whether she was drunk, or saying I was in a mutually abusive relationship, or being told that I was "painting" myself as a victim, when really my question was about why I could still feel things for this person who repeatedly abused alcohol and abused me and terrified me to the point that I did try to fight back (I honestly did not know if she was going to kill me) and if anyone had been through something similar, made me very upset, even though it's just a forum and no one here knows me. So I'm sorry if I seemed like a grouch, but I just felt misunderstood and the whole thing has very much shaken me up.

[MrSunshine]

why I could still feel things for this person who repeatedly abused alcohol and abused me


that's the way of the human heart

[Gráinne]

Of course you can still love someone who beats the shit out of you. That's the dynamic that keeps women in these relationships (well, that's simplistic, but it's part of it). I've been there.

You need to love yourself more than you love this abusive person. And you are already ahead of the game in that you don't live together and I assume you are self-supporting. Millions of women are not. You have youth and no dependents (I'm also assuming). (I'm not discounting that men are abused also, and vastly underreported, but just looking at women for the moment).

Back when I was being slapped around and emotionally abused (which began much earlier than the physical), I searched for anything to make it stop-I literally walked on eggshells, careful not to set my partner off. I was sick, and I'll go as far as say I was in a form of insanity. I learned much later that I couldn't control the abuse or stop it, as the "rules" kept changing in our mutual dance of death.

I loved my partner, and when the times were good, they were great! That kept me there way too long. I won't go into the details, but I wound up in a battered women's shelter full of women who spoke versions of your post, and it was a long time before I totally extricated myself from that relationship. Then I had to take years of therapy and a lot of healing to address why and how I got into that situation, and how to have anything close to a healthy relationship. That work continues today, though I am 1000% better off now than then. I left with little, but Lord, things are better today even in the grimmest days.

It doesn't matter if she accosts you in your apartment or on the Moon. Unless you do this work on yourself, and get free (read Ginny McCarthy's book Getting Free, and do anything and everything in it), this person or someone like her will surely kill you. Don't let yourself be a victim or become a statistic.

[aishah]

Originally Posted by dancer611

For those of you who have not been abused, the guilt of a victim is so strong--I should have acted different, I should have made a better sandwich for her, I shouldn't have asked her to stop drinking, I shouldn't have cried and she wouldn't have done anything--that it becomes a constant cycle of beating yourself up. So to be questioned about if I was lying about whether she was drunk, or saying I was in a mutually abusive relationship, or being told that I was "painting" myself as a victim, when really my question was about why I could still feel things for this person who repeatedly abused alcohol and abused me and terrified me to the point that I did try to fight back (I honestly did not know if she was going to kill me) and if anyone had been through something similar, made me very upset, even though it's just a forum and no one here knows me. So I'm sorry if I seemed like a grouch, but I just felt misunderstood and the whole thing has very much shaken me up.

this isn't what you asked. you asked "what should i do?"

the answer to that is "you should get counseling and maintain your boundaries."

the answer to the question in your later post is, as evidenced by everyone's posts here, YES, many of us have been through the same thing and we know what it feels like.

and yes, it's possible to still feel something. i still feel love for people who have abused me. i have even stayed in a relationship with someone when they committed to getting help and working on their destructive patterns (and when the abuse was an isolated incident), and the outcome was positive. that's rare though. 99% of the time, the absolute best thing you can do for yourself is GET OUT. feel the feelings and whatever - they're going to come up. find a safe place to feel them. but get out and maintain boundaries until both of you have done some work. that is the only way to deal with the feelings of guilt and shame and put them into perspective.

[JustJo]

Hi Dancer

I understand completely feeling like you love that person and want to give them another chance. In fact, I think abusers count on that in their targets...and pick people who will keep giving them second, third, and fourth chances.

I am not even going to pretend any deep knowledge of matters psychological....but I was in counseling at one point....and my therapist shared this list with me. Please read it with your abusive partner in mind....and look at what it says about how they view those in their lives. I know this is about sociopaths and not abusers per se....but I'm seeing patterns and wonder if you will too.

Having said that...having the information isn't always enough. Some of us, myself included, are slow learners.

Please don't take what you're reading in this thread as an attack. It isn't. And please, for your own health and well-being, find a good counselor who can help you....you deserve it.

Here's the list:

Profile of the Sociopath

Glibness and Superficial Charm

Manipulative and Conning
They never recognize the rights of others and see their self-serving behaviors as permissible. They appear to be charming, yet are covertly hostile and domineering, seeing their victim as merely an instrument to be used. They may dominate and humiliate their victims.

Grandiose Sense of Self
Feels entitled to certain things as "their right."

Pathological Lying
Has no problem lying coolly and easily and it is almost impossible for them to be truthful on a consistent basis. Can create, and get caught up in, a complex belief about their own powers and abilities. Extremely convincing and even able to pass lie detector tests.

Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt
A deep seated rage, which is split off and repressed, is at their core. Does not see others around them as people, but only as targets and opportunities. Instead of friends, they have victims and accomplices who end up as victims. The end always justifies the means and they let nothing stand in their way.

Shallow Emotions
When they show what seems to be warmth, joy, love and compassion it is more feigned than experienced and serves an ulterior motive. Outraged by insignificant matters, yet remaining unmoved and cold by what would upset a normal person. Since they are not genuine, neither are their promises.

Incapacity for Love

Need for Stimulation
Living on the edge. Verbal outbursts and physical punishments are normal. Promiscuity and gambling are common.

Callousness/Lack of Empathy
Unable to empathize with the pain of their victims, having only contempt for others' feelings of distress and readily taking advantage of them.

Poor Behavioral Controls/Impulsive Nature
Rage and abuse, alternating with small expressions of love and approval produce an addictive cycle for abuser and abused, as well as creating hopelessness in the victim. Believe they are all-powerful, all-knowing, entitled to every wish, no sense of personal boundaries, no concern for their impact on others.

Early Behavior Problems/Juvenile Delinquency
Usually has a history of behavioral and academic difficulties, yet "gets by" by conning others. Problems in making and keeping friends; aberrant behaviors such as cruelty to people or animals, stealing, etc.

Irresponsibility/Unreliability
Not concerned about wrecking others' lives and dreams. Oblivious or indifferent to the devastation they cause. Does not accept blame themselves, but blames others, even for acts they obviously committed.

Promiscuous Sexual Behavior/Infidelity
Promiscuity, child sexual abuse, rape and sexual acting out of all sorts.

Lack of Realistic Life Plan/Parasitic Lifestyle
Tends to move around a lot or makes all encompassing promises for the future, poor work ethic but exploits others effectively.

Criminal or Entrepreneurial Versatility
Changes their image as needed to avoid prosecution. Changes life story readily.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Other Related Qualities:

Contemptuous of those who seek to understand them
Does not perceive that anything is wrong with them
Authoritarian
Secretive
Paranoid
Only rarely in difficulty with the law, but seeks out situations where their tyrannical behavior will be tolerated, condoned, or admired
Conventional appearance
Goal of enslavement of their victim(s)
Exercises despotic control over every aspect of the victim's life
Has an emotional need to justify their crimes and therefore needs their victim's affirmation (respect, gratitude and love)
Ultimate goal is the creation of a willing victim
Incapable of real human attachment to another
Unable to feel remorse or guilt
Extreme narcissism and grandiose
May state readily that their goal is to rule the world

(The above traits are based on the psychopathy checklists of H. Cleckley and R. Hare.)

[Breathless]

Okay in fear of coming across as anything less than completely sincere, and empathetic.. the way I understood the beginning of this thread was that, you were having a problem/issue/concern/need to vent about a current situation that you were having, and looking for advice (since that is what happens when you say it out loud to a world full of people) Yet there is another thread that was started by you as well, that makes it sound ? Ancient history? Or no longer a current concern?

Please dont bite my head off, I was just posting on a different thread and the topic was much different attitude, and when i noticed that the threads were started within a day of each other by the same original poster, made me wonder who is on the other side of the screen.

Not that I or anyone else is owed any kind of explanation, just feeling a little confused.