I am... and I prefer the term...

[Quintease]

But maybe we can continue the conversation now. I know every one has their own terminology and it would be nice to see what language we all use.

[Corkey]

I am just what my descriptor oveh there <--------- says. Most of all I am a human being. One can never please all of the people all of the time Dapper.
We're all individuals and as such there just aren't enough descriptors of every one of us. I think your poll is a good example of how we are so far from heteronormative, and this is a good thing. I think defining who we are is an ongoing and fluid thing for many of us.
Yey you for giving it a go!

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

You know what? I had a question. I did the best I could. I really am not getting why this is continuing to be picked apart. Seriously.

Linus, could this thread please be closed? All it has become is me explaining why I did what and no discussion is happening.ETA:I certainly don't mind answering questions, but the point of the thread has been lost and I don't see that shifting.

Which is usually what happens among us when we attempt to talk about gender. I'm sorry this turned into a fiasco for you Dapper.

What I have learned from all of the endless discussion about gender identification within our community is that it is just not steadfast- and could be very fluid, or evolving for many of us at any given time. The literature changes all of the time as new studies are published and we see new ways of considering our identities. That feels positive to me because I can gain understanding in new ways.

I am a Female-Identified Butch WOMAN that views the Gender Blended Female Person model as most accurate for how I have and continue to experience myself. This model date back into the 90's. Just fits for me.

Mostly, I try to hear what someone else prefers, which I know you do as well.

[BullDog]

I personally don't think anyone is giving Dapper a hard time. I don't like the butch classification scheme. I never have. Dapper didn't invent it. Other people are not seeing where they fit in as well.

Some have participated in the poll, some haven't. I did not, but I gave my thoughts on the question asked.

[DapperButch]

I appreciate everyone's thoughts. Certainly I could have done better with my explanation as to what I was trying to get to in my opening post.

In the post I focused on explaining the poll and focused on describing our identities (it was actually an attempt to AVOID what happened anyway), but what I really wanted to talk about was the term cissexed and what folks think of the term.

I was thinking back to when it was first discussed, sometime ago starting with Dylan and with other things that were said it seemed as through the greater trans community was seeking that the term start being used instead of bio male/bio female, for example.

Every time I write the term bio male now I wonder if it is insulting to any trans members here. Yet, I have heard non trans folks say often that they don't like the term. That is where I wanted to go with this thread.

BullDog, I appreciate your participation and any additional thoughts you may have about the subject, as I recall you being a non trans person who did not like the term cissexed from way back when it was first discussed. I'd appreciate it if we got away from the continued discussion about the identities I used in the poll.

[Kätzchen]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

There has been talk here and there about the term cissexed (and the term cisgendered, but since I am referring to one's sex, I am going to use the term cissexed, exclusively), and if people like the term or don't like the term to refer to themselves or to refer to people who are the opposite of them.

I edited DB's OP and narrowed the focus to what I would like to respond to:

If I understand the parameters you have set forth above, the meaning of the prefix "cis-", to me, implies dominant socially held norms - connoting a heteronormative stance. Simply put: "Cis-sex" - again, to me - means that I identify wholly with the biological order I was born into. I am female - the female of the species. However, my using the term "cis-sex" is not to be confused or conflated to mean anything that might be associated with "cis-sexual," as use of the term cis-sexual, to me, implies that a person identifies with dominant socially held views about sexual orientation exhibiting heteronormative dimensions. To clarify further on the terms "cis-sex" and "cis-sexual" - I am not comfortable nor do I prefer to identify wholly with either term - except that for the fact that I am comfortable with being female.

However, the non-violent anarchist in me parts ways with the term "cis-gendered" because I do not identify with dominant socially held views of performative gender, because gender is performed in socialized ways: For example, if I were to say that I am a woman, then as a woman, I might take on the behaviors of what being a woman means at a macro (larger scaled) level. But at a micro- level, I don't take on all the typical, generally understood, aspects of what being a woman means.


To me, I wonder all the time about the problematic issues that seemingly are tied to terms of identity and tinker with my own perception held about said terms and the interconnections between identity, power, privilege and control (social or personal).

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by ALovelyKiss

I edited DB's OP and narrowed the focus to what I would like to respond to:

If I understand the parameters you have set forth above, the meaning of the prefix "cis-", to me, implies dominant socially held norms - connoting a heteronormative stance. Simply put: "Cis-sex" - again, to me - means that I identify wholly with the biological order I was born into. I am female - the female of the species. However, my using the term "cis-sex" is not to be confused or conflated to mean anything that might be associated with "cis-sexual," as use of the term cis-sexual, to me, implies that a person identifies with dominant socially held views about sexual orientation exhibiting heteronormative dimensions. To clarify further on the terms "cis-sex" and "cis-sexual" - I am not comfortable nor do I prefer to identify wholly with either term - except that for the fact that I am comfortable with being female.

However, the non-violent anarchist in me parts ways with the term "cis-gendered" because I do not identify with dominant socially held views of performative gender, because gender is performed in socialized ways: For example, if I were to say that I am a woman, then as a woman, I might take on the behaviors of what being a woman means at a macro (larger scaled) level. But at a micro- level, I don't take on all the typical, generally understood, aspects of what being a woman means.


To me, I wonder all the time about the problematic issues that seemingly are tied to terms of identity and tinker with my own perception held about said terms and the interconnections between identity, power, privilege and control (social or personal).

Any narrowing or expanding of the discussion is appreciated!

Great post. I really appreciate what you wrote above and hear what you are saying here. It makes sense to me.

In the same way, that is why I believe some transpeople are preferring transsexed over transsexual, because it is about their sex (similar to the intersexed population, as Ender mentioned).

I do wonder if we will see the definition of these terms change or shift overtime (or narrow or open) as we have seen the many definitions connected to transgender.

[Daywalker]

Gender Neutral ~ Butch ~> Hippy

Originally Posted by a quick ref for those unfamiliar with the GN term ~ certainly only one of many ways to describe it

Free of explicit or implicit reference to gender or sex, as is the
term police officer (instead of policewoman or policeman)
or the term crewed (instead of manned).

ie; Have always used Child or kid in place of the Girl/Boy when
referencing myself in tales of my youngest years. While I can
acknowlegde both, I don't see either. Been that way as long
as I can remember. Within our Community I have preferenced
Hy for pronoun but I don't machete peoples day to
pieces if out in the Gen Pop I get she'd.

I don't actually think while meandering though life that
I present with either. But that's my perception,
the personal one. I just don't run mah
world according to Gender
(or Garp, great flick).

There's been a time or three I've had the audacity to allow my mind
to be fancied with an internal philosophical circus rambling...one of
them includes the preposterous idea that if Females and Males were
equal in the Physical strength arena from the beginning of our
Species, how much different things would be today.

It could take me on hours of pondering through all the
leaves n branches of that Hypothetical Hooplah.

Anyway, now I've completely fogotten what I
was gonna post in the first place.

Crap.

I'm wiped out today, what with fighting the
vacuum vortex Rapture tunnels n all.

Surely the thought will find its way back.

[BullDog]

I do realize the conversation has been more heavily weighted towards identity than which terms are preferred and this is frustrating to some people. However, I actually do think there is a reason this is occurring.

I think one of the reasons why so many queers have issues with the terms cisgender and cissexed is because many of us don't believe our gender and sex and the relationship between the two is all that clear cut or straight forward. I believe that's one of the reasons why we have so many different identities and why they aren't so easy to classify. So when it is suggested that our sex or gender is in alignment with what is socially acceptable many of us chafe at that idea.

As to polls, Linus tried to start one on religion and even after he maxxed out people still were coming up with more. There was also a little scuffle on whether or not Catholics were considered Christians. Oh and I was one of the pain in the ass people asking whether mustard could be considered a sandwich spread (as opposed to Sandwich Spread) in the great Mayo-Miracle Whip debate. Queers can be a pain in the ass.

[Martina]

i am femme, and i use cisgendered or cismale or cisfemale because Dylan basically talked me into, it thread after thread. i was convinced that while there is a spectrum of discomfort with assigned gender, at some point there is a difference between those of us who can live with the loose fit of how we experience ourselves and the gender category assigned to us and those who never could and never will be able to.

[Rockinonahigh]

Ive sorta read thrue this thred and im more confused that when I started.So in that light I will say that im osof stone butch who over the years have mellowed out about all this labeling buisness..if the shoe fits wear it with pride as well as being all who u want to be in your life.Remember life changes,I am a testimonial to that.I agree with Mr.Day on so many levals...right on.

[julieisafemme]

I agree with Martina. I have never in all my years experienced a moment of dysphoria or confusion regarding my body and my internal experience of gender. The binary is bad if it is the only thing used to define gender. BUT some people do fit into that binary in a gender sense. I am as cissexed and cisgendered as you can get! This became even more clear to me in talking to my partner about his experience of his gender as a child. My queerness is directly related to who I want to partner with. That is the only way I break the expected behavior for my gender really. I meet the societal expectations of my gender as well. I see it like this:

Do you feel aligned with your biological sex and your assigned gender?

Do you also, for the most part, meet the societal expectations of that gender?

If so, you could be cisgendered.

Bulldog I know you might agree with the first question but would not agree with the second. So it makes sense to me that you not define yourself as cisgendered/sexed. But can you see based on my questions and my answers of yes to both that the term fits quite well for me? It is very specific in how it differentiates my experience of gender from that of my partner's. That is why I like it so much.

[AtLast]

snip-

[QUOTE=BullDog;344115]

I think one of the reasons why so many queers have issues with the terms cisgender and cissexed is because many of us don't believe our gender and sex and the relationship between the two is all that clear cut or straight forward. I believe that's one of the reasons why we have so many different identities and why they aren't so easy to classify. So when it is suggested that our sex or gender is in alignment with what is socially acceptable many of us chafe at that idea.

QUOTE] snip

No, it isn't for me at all- not clear-cut. Not even close. That is why it is important to be open to new data and theory that finally takes into consideration how gender and sex is very complex.

When I talk with my intergendered cousin and her experiences throughout her 70 plus years- I am completely humbled when it comes to this entire topic.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

I agree with Martina. I have never in all my years experienced a moment of dysphoria or confusion regarding my body and my internal experience of gender. The binary is bad if it is the only thing used to define gender. BUT some people do fit into that binary in a gender sense. I am as cissexed and cisgendered as you can get! This became even more clear to me in talking to my partner about his experience of his gender as a child. My queerness is directly related to who I want to partner with. That is the only way I break the expected behavior for my gender really. I meet the societal expectations of my gender as well. I see it like this:

Do you feel aligned with your biological sex and your assigned gender?

Do you also, for the most part, meet the societal expectations of that gender?

If so, you could be cisgendered.

Bulldog I know you might agree with the first question but would not agree with the second. So it makes sense to me that you not define yourself as cisgendered/sexed. But can you see based on my questions and my answers of yes to both that the term fits quite well for me? It is very specific in how it differentiates my experience of gender from that of my partner's. That is why I like it so much.

Do you feel aligned with your biological sex and your assigned gender?

I feel I am a female and woman, but no I am not aligned in the way I was assigned to it by my society and culture. I have done my own self alignment.

If the terms fit for you then of course I respect your opinion of yourself and your life experiences.

[julieisafemme]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Do you feel aligned with your biological sex and your assigned gender?

I feel I am a female and woman, but no I am not aligned in the way I was assigned to it by my society and culture. I have done my own self alignment.

If the terms fit for you then of course I respect your opinion of yourself and your life experiences.

Ok that makes sense. So is it the societal expectations of how women are supposed to behave that you don't align with? That is the second part of the question and I, based on what you have posted, did not think that was true for you. I guess what I am trying to understand is that absent of societal expectations of how you should behave as a woman, do you feel aligned with your body and your internal sense of gender? Even if you do you still don't have to accept or use cisgender!! I am just asking.

The other reason I like the term is that it brought out the privilege that I experience in not having ever experienced gender dysphoria or going against what society expects of my gender. It was something I had never thought about or was aware of. I know this is just my experience and there are many people who are aware of this. I remember in another thread about this Heart said that as a feminist she has been contemplating her gender for a long time.

[Toughy]

societal expectations of how you should behave as a woman

I think that depends on what society/culture you were born to even within the US.

I come from the desert southwest (southeast new mexico). Women wore pants, worked along side men on the farm/ranch. The rule of thumb is: 'the butcher she looks, the more likely she is straight'. The expectation from farm/ranch culture was that women could and should be able to do what men did. And men should be able to do what women did. I was not raised with 'women's roles' and 'men's roles'. I was in for a hella shock when I went to college and ran into this other idea about women.

That is not to say I did not understand I was different. I knew I was not like other girls/women..........even the butch looking ones. I was entirely insecure in the girl-boy stuff. My first crushes were on girls even tho I could not articulate that crush. But I did know it was different and I was different.

So it's a mixed bag for me............but don't call me cis-sexed and/or cis-gendered.

I think the really confusing part is how 'gender' and 'sex' are interchangeable except when they are not.

[LipstickLola]

My ID is none of the above, and yet I am here

Interesting though!

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Toughy

I think that depends on what society/culture you were born to even within the US.

I come from the desert southwest (southeast new mexico). Women wore pants, worked along side men on the farm/ranch. The rule of thumb is: 'the butcher she looks, the more likely she is straight'. The expectation from farm/ranch culture was that women could and should be able to do what men did. And men should be able to do what women did. I was not raised with 'women's roles' and 'men's roles'. I was in for a hella shock when I went to college and ran into this other idea about women.

That is not to say I did not understand I was different. I knew I was not like other girls/women..........even the butch looking ones. I was entirely insecure in the girl-boy stuff. My first crushes were on girls even tho I could not articulate that crush. But I did know it was different and I was different.

So it's a mixed bag for me............but don't call me cis-sexed and/or cis-gendered.

I think the really confusing part is how 'gender' and 'sex' are interchangeable except when they are not.

Yes- very confusing!


I had a little bit of what you describe when I lived as a teen in a "mountain town"- Yet, felt like you did. I was not the same kind of butch as these other women due to my sexuality, not my gender presentation.

This is just not a simple subject area. Sometimes I wonder why we think it can be wrapped-up into a one size fits all paradigm. Both gender & sexuality are elastic and fluid to me and defy simplicity.

[noneoftheabove]

hmmm i guess what bothers me most about the cis terms is their usage. I don't have problems with anyone's personal ID's. In fact, i think the cis terms can be quite helpful in explaining an individual's experience with gender when used as a self-ID. I disagree with the use of cis(anything) as a blanket term for those who do not ID as trans. Cis implies a knowledge of someone's self identity and we cannot know this just by looking (which is how this labeling usually happens). The other terms don't imply anything about how one views their own body or gender. Personally though, i use non trans(sexed or gender). I think that I see things this way because neither cis or trans fits for me.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

Ok that makes sense. So is it the societal expectations of how women are supposed to behave that you don't align with? That is the second part of the question and I, based on what you have posted, did not think that was true for you. I guess what I am trying to understand is that absent of societal expectations of how you should behave as a woman, do you feel aligned with your body and your internal sense of gender? Even if you do you still don't have to accept or use cisgender!! I am just asking.

The other reason I like the term is that it brought out the privilege that I experience in not having ever experienced gender dysphoria or going against what society expects of my gender. It was something I had never thought about or was aware of. I know this is just my experience and there are many people who are aware of this. I remember in another thread about this Heart said that as a feminist she has been contemplating her gender for a long time.

I am not sure how you can separate the two questions out. Our internal sense of self is still influenced by the culture and society we grow up in. We learn what it means to become female and woman by growing up and what we are being taught. I also do agree with Toughy that it can vary depending on where you grow up and also your family and other factors in terms of how your understanding develops in terms of what it means to be a woman, female etc.

When I was a child I wanted to be a boy. I had crushes on little girls and liked boys things way more than girls. I remember when my little girl friends would invite me over to play barbies and I would be bored to tears. I would rather be outside playing sports, riding my bike, reading a book, anything but play with dolls. I hated wearing dresses. I don't remember wanting to have a male body necessarily, but I did want to be a boy. I was a tomboy and this worked pretty well for me until adolescence. Then when I was in my teens I discovered what a lesbian was and it clicked for me and I didn't want to be a boy anymore.

My sense of my female body is much different than what I have been taught. I do feel my butch cock is an extension of myself and my ideal chest would not involve breasts. So I have made adjustments in my mind to align myself. Perhaps I will some day have chest surgery or perhaps not. I do not pack most of the time. I don't need to. My butch cock is there whether I am wearing it or not.