What makes a Butch "Butch"

[Ebon]

Originally Posted by Corkey

I am Butch and TG and male and not woman, but female bodied. My identity does not put me anywhere on a spectrum, it puts me in a circle, for I AM HUMAN.

First and fucking foremost human. I agree brother Corkey!

[Mr. Cynthia]

Originally Posted by Toughy

One of the things that still, always has, and always will bother me is the linkage of male and butch. As far as I remember, every single time (dash & planet) the identity of butch appears, the identity of male appears with it. Woman and butch seem to appear as a secondary concept and we (woman butch) are put into a defensive position.

Butch does not equal male or man as a default. In my mind, butch is a default female or woman identity. Butch is masculinity carried in a female body. Butch is queering masculinity in a female body. There is a difference between masculine and male/man.

I'm not clear I am being clear.....laughin......so I'll stop now...

I think you're quite clear, Toughy.

I was born butch but I didn't really want to be male. I wanted to be a female who could wear what she wants, cut her hair like she wants, work and play like she wants and love the kind of women she wants. Society makes the cognitive leap from all that to "oh, she wants to be a man."

I ID as a bulldyke because the term connotes "lesbian" (which includes "woman" by default) and "butch" all in one tidy little word that just rolls off my tongue...especially in the presence of earnest straight people trying really hard to be cool

[Corkey]

From my perspective, perhaps its time we dropped the linear and embraced the circular. I know I'd be happy to do so.

[Billy]

Originally Posted by Dude

yup , I'm the ruler of the thread

what I wrote WAS ==> to me (for me, my opinion, etc.)

no show here, folks

the end

put me on ignore , if I bother you so fucking much

LOL .......You don't bother Me at all . I find you very funny !
Carry on oh mighty ruler !

[~ocean]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Vive la difference'~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~ocean

[Medusa]

DUDE and BILLY -

You both have been told before to put each other on ignore. The next one of you who takes a swipe, posts to the other person, quotes the other person, or drags this bullshit to another thread will receive an immediate time out.

You both are better than this and it's embarrassing to see two people I respect slapping the shit out of each other in a thread where people are trying to have a conversation.

STOP IT IMMEDIATELY.

No more warnings.

Thanks,
Angie

[mariamma]

Originally Posted by Apocalipstic

Its not easier. I make an effort and realize the importance of community and love love love my Femme sisters now. Maybe I am too old to be a threat any more, but thats cool. Lol.

Great post!

I love sisterhood! Bonding does seem easier for femmes (minus the catty back-stabbing) which is why I tend to hang with other femmes.
No one has mentioned something obvious to me. We are engendered with masculine or feminine characteristics via the actions of T and E. Ones normal endogenous levels will effect whether or not you have mild or bodacious secondary sex characteristics (butch swagger or wide hips that swing when you walk, etc.).
In this case, yes, butchness will come out the pores. T, E and many other hormones do come out your pores. It's sexy as frak! to a femme like moi and makes me wax girly (I'll even get a high lilt to my speech and laugh).
In closing, I just want to say again....bodacious. Thank you very much.

[Reader]

Originally Posted by Toughy

One of the things that still, always has, and always will bother me is the linkage of male and butch. As far as I remember, every single time (dash & planet) the identity of butch appears, the identity of male appears with it. Woman and butch seem to appear as a secondary concept and we (woman butch) are put into a defensive position.

Butch does not equal male or man as a default. In my mind, butch is a default female or woman identity. Butch is masculinity carried in a female body. Butch is queering masculinity in a female body. There is a difference between masculine and male/man.

I'm not clear I am being clear.....laughin......so I'll stop now...

Originally Posted by CherylNYC

I really, really like this thread because of this post, and the vast majority of the other posts in this thread that say similar things. Many butch posters have gone to great lengths to say in ways both simple and complex that their female bodies carry their butch-i-tude. That being butch is, for them, masculine energy in a woman's body. That being butch means simply being themselves.

That's super cool. (And super hot.) What's not cool is that so many butches have been made to feel defensive about being both butch and a woman. I wish it were not so. I wish I could wave a magic wand and make all the bs disappear. Unfortunately, the only thing I can do is continually offer my unquestioning support. You're all perfect and beautiful exactly the way you are.

What great posts. Thanks for posting these sentiments so well Toughy and Cheryl.

[Toughy]

I am a young masculine girl....I play bball, soccer, volleyball, softball, track/field....pick a ball and I can play with it..................

I get the masculine part.,....I do really live it.....it lives with me every day with every gesture, movement. I am masculine.....there is no doubt.

Who will help me find my feminine that lives with my masculine?

When I came out, I was blessed to have a femme who loved my masculinity and understood my femininity and helped me put them together.

I will always forever give thanks to her

[rustedrims]

Going to go back a few posts and comment on the hair cut and Butches wearing a dress..I kinda know something about both subjects..

Is a butch any less a butch if they are wearing a dress..??..I say no..My little brother was getting married and my mom,sister and grandma was giving me a real hard time about what i was going to wear..They were pushing me real hard on wearing a dress..I wasnt in the wedding so couldnt i wear what i want..??..Well took it as a dare and me and my girlfriend at the time went shopping for a dress for me..Yep bought one and wore it..I felt out of place so bad that i was very uncomfortable..It seemed like everyone came to the wedding to see if i was going to wear that dress..My girlfriend liked seeing me in it..Couldnt wait till i could take it off..Ok i got the dress and wearing it and my sister makes the comment on how i was walking..REALLY..?..I put the dress on and it still wasnt enough..I cant change the walk/swagger even in a dress..I wasnt any less a Butch in a dress,,just an uncomfortable one..That was about 25-26 years ago..They are still married..

A few years later my older sister was getting married..Here we go again..This time she asked me to be in the wedding..That was quite an ordeal because they were going to get married on my 21st birthday..WHAT.!!.You are going to make me wear a dress on my 21st BIRTHDAY and plan my day according to what you want me to do..Ummm NO.!.I turned down the offer to be in the wedding because of my birthaday and didnt want to wear a dress the whole entire day..On my Birthday.!!.That caused a bunch of trouble..She wouldnt change the wedding day and i wouldnt change my mind..My Butchness was fully entact that day..My other sisters boyfriend took me across the street and bought me my first legal drink while the pictures were being taken..Think we had a few..That was about 20-22 years ago..They are still married..

Yet another wedding..Another sister is getting married..She asked me to be in her wedding and i accepted..We had to wear a light pink dress with a big bow on our a#ses..Not a pretty sight or dress..None of us liked it..It was very low cut and if we bent over far enough you could see all the way to our bellybuttons..Oh yeah flower in our hair..I took that out imediately or as soon as i could..Very uncomfortable and i felt like an idiot..Again i was told to walk like a girl..How can i do that being a butch..??..Anyway it was time to take that dress off..I went out to my car and got my other clothes..Went in the bathroom to change and my grandma was in there..I said i am sorry grandma and that da#n hoop dress went right over my head and on the floor..There i was naked infront of grandma..I felt more comfortable like that than with that dress on..Put on my tightest pair of Levis and my "dress up t-shirt" with my hiking boots..Went out sat with my cousins and said now it is time to drink..My cousin smiled put a cup in front of me and filled that thing up..That marriage was over less than 3 years..{told ya,but what do i know}..

Now the hair..I prefer a little length..When i was little mom forced me to have short hair..It was her decision on how i was to wear my hair not mine..I didnt like the way it looked on me..Thought it made my ears stick out..So i like my hair to cover my ears..Told my hair girl the story and she cuts/trims accordinly..

Now with that being said..Through all those dresses and longer hair..I am still a butch on the inside and able to express it on the outside..No one can change that with a dress..It is what i feel and what i am..I am a Butch woman and very secure with that..

Kinda funny.. A few months ago i had to attend a funeral of a close family member..The kids were taking bets on what i was going to wear..Not a dress this time it was dress pants or the Levis..I picked the Levis and a shirt i ironed..They told me about it and who won..We laughed about it..The kids were not around during the dress time..They do know i will not be wearing a dress at any time even on Halloween..They know i am a Butch and respect that as it is and they dont care how i walk either..Love those kids..

sorry it got kinda long
thanks for reading

s..

[Mr. Cynthia]

Originally Posted by rustedrims

Going to go back a few posts and comment on the hair cut and Butches wearing a dress..I kinda know something about both subjects..

Is a butch any less a butch if they are wearing a dress..??..I say no..My little brother was getting married and my mom,sister and grandma was giving me a real hard time about what i was going to wear..They were pushing me real hard on wearing a dress..I wasnt in the wedding so couldnt i wear what i want..??..Well took it as a dare and me and my girlfriend at the time went shopping for a dress for me..Yep bought one and wore it..I felt out of place so bad that i was very uncomfortable..It seemed like everyone came to the wedding to see if i was going to wear that dress..My girlfriend liked seeing me in it..Couldnt wait till i could take it off..Ok i got the dress and wearing it and my sister makes the comment on how i was walking..REALLY..?..I put the dress on and it still wasnt enough..I cant change the walk/swagger even in a dress..I wasnt any less a Butch in a dress,,just an uncomfortable one..That was about 25-26 years ago..They are still married..

A few years later my older sister was getting married..Here we go again..This time she asked me to be in the wedding..That was quite an ordeal because they were going to get married on my 21st birthday..WHAT.!!.You are going to make me wear a dress on my 21st BIRTHDAY and plan my day according to what you want me to do..Ummm NO.!.I turned down the offer to be in the wedding because of my birthaday and didnt want to wear a dress the whole entire day..On my Birthday.!!.That caused a bunch of trouble..She wouldnt change the wedding day and i wouldnt change my mind..My Butchness was fully entact that day..My other sisters boyfriend took me across the street and bought me my first legal drink while the pictures were being taken..Think we had a few..That was about 20-22 years ago..They are still married..

Yet another wedding..Another sister is getting married..She asked me to be in her wedding and i accepted..We had to wear a light pink dress with a big bow on our a#ses..Not a pretty sight or dress..None of us liked it..It was very low cut and if we bent over far enough you could see all the way to our bellybuttons..Oh yeah flower in our hair..I took that out imediately or as soon as i could..Very uncomfortable and i felt like an idiot..Again i was told to walk like a girl..How can i do that being a butch..??..Anyway it was time to take that dress off..I went out to my car and got my other clothes..Went in the bathroom to change and my grandma was in there..I said i am sorry grandma and that da#n hoop dress went right over my head and on the floor..There i was naked infront of grandma..I felt more comfortable like that than with that dress on..Put on my tightest pair of Levis and my "dress up t-shirt" with my hiking boots..Went out sat with my cousins and said now it is time to drink..My cousin smiled put a cup in front of me and filled that thing up..That marriage was over less than 3 years..{told ya,but what do i know}..

Now the hair..I prefer a little length..When i was little mom forced me to have short hair..It was her decision on how i was to wear my hair not mine..I didnt like the way it looked on me..Thought it made my ears stick out..So i like my hair to cover my ears..Told my hair girl the story and she cuts/trims accordinly..

Now with that being said..Through all those dresses and longer hair..I am still a butch on the inside and able to express it on the outside..No one can change that with a dress..It is what i feel and what i am..I am a Butch woman and very secure with that..

Kinda funny.. A few months ago i had to attend a funeral of a close family member..The kids were taking bets on what i was going to wear..Not a dress this time it was dress pants or the Levis..I picked the Levis and a shirt i ironed..They told me about it and who won..We laughed about it..The kids were not around during the dress time..They do know i will not be wearing a dress at any time even on Halloween..They know i am a Butch and respect that as it is and they dont care how i walk either..Love those kids..

sorry it got kinda long
thanks for reading

s..

Damn, I'm glad I've only got one sister! I didn't wear a dress to her wedding but I did grow out my flat top and wear a women's suit - for my mom, not my sister.

In fact, when I asked my sister if she was gonna want me in a dress for the big day, she laughed out loud and said, "Don't be silly, you'd look ridiculous."

I think she was secretly afraid that the novelty of her big bulldyke sister in a dress would become the one thing everybody remembered about her wedding...

[Billy]

Originally Posted by Mr. Cynthia

Damn, I'm glad I've only got one sister! I didn't wear a dress to her wedding but I did grow out my flat top and wear a women's suit - for my mom, not my sister.

In fact, when I asked my sister if she was gonna want me in a dress for the big day, she laughed out loud and said, "Don't be silly, you'd look ridiculous."

I think she was secretly afraid that the novelty of her big bulldyke sister in a dress would become the one thing everybody remembered about her wedding...

I was trying to remember how long its been since I was in said dress .. It was at My fathers wedding I did it for him , it was not pretty at all .. I think it looked like a football player in drag ! lol

[Leigh]

I just love how every butch is different; no matter how you identify or dress or how you are in general you are a human being and that to me above all else counts the most

[rustedrims]

Hey Mr.Cynthia..
The kids are all in their early 20's and would never concider even asking if i was going to wear a dress for any reason..They know i am not going to..Why cant those other people let me be me..It is Levis and a ironed shirt or a Tux for the Grand Ball..Those are the choices..The kids get it..

Billy..
Yeah..Thinking back on those days i am sure i looked like i was in Drag..It will never happen again..If i am invited to share an important day in their lives what difference does it really make what i am wearing..Isnt it important that i show up and share the day with them..No to dresses and still am a Butch inside and out..

About a month ago i had a very important meeting i had to go to..Even still my mom pointed her finger in my face and gave me her opinion on what i should wear..Bascially dont dress like a Butch she was trying to say..Threw the dresses away many years ago so the Levis and a shirt..What i was wearing had no affect on the out come of that meeting..Hummm Really.??.

[aishah]

Originally Posted by Leigh

I just love how every butch is different; no matter how you identify or dress or how you are in general you are a human being and that to me above all else counts the most

this

i am also grateful for butch diversity. i love all the different ways you have of expressing yourself to the world. you are so handsome and sexy it just floors me. you are seen and loved and respected.

[Mr. Cynthia]

Originally Posted by Billy

I was trying to remember how long its been since I was in said dress .. It was at My fathers wedding I did it for him , it was not pretty at all .. I think it looked like a football player in drag ! lol

I did drag for Halloween one year- back when I practically lived at the bar. I had some of the girls from work put makeup on me, wore a real wig and a normal outfit. I looked in the mirror and said, "Yeah, I'd buy me a drink."

Nobody recognized me until I clued them in, or moved or spoke. It was fun.

[rustedrims]

As i read in the Planet i see how we as Butches and Femmes have fallen into the ways of the people around us and do what they expect of us..At the time i think we go numb and "act out" what is expected of us in a straight world to fit in to their enviroment not to upset the apple cart..Ya know i think we are all tired of tip toeing around that apple cart not to knock it over..That cart needs to be kicked over to let everyone know that we are here and we arent going away anytime soon..Butch or Femme we are humans and do have feelings of acceptance and rejection..

[rustedrims]

Originally Posted by aishah

this

i am also grateful for butch diversity. i love all the different ways you have of expressing yourself to the world. you are so handsome and sexy it just floors me. you are seen and loved and respected.

Sending a little Thank-You your way..
Us Butches are nothing without all you Femmes..

[Leigh]

Originally Posted by rustedrims

As i read in the Planet i see how we as Butches and Femmes have fallen into the ways of the people around us and do what they expect of us..At the time i think we go numb and "act out" what is expected of us in a straight world to fit in to their enviroment not to upset the apple cart..Ya know i think we are all tired of tip toeing around that apple cart not to knock it over..That cart needs to be kicked over to let everyone know that we are here and we arent going away anytime soon..Butch or Femme we are humans and do have feelings of acceptance and rejection..

I know its really easy for us to act a certain way because that is what the straight world expects of us. If only they would accept us for who we all are and not make us act a certain way or be a certain person just to appease them. Absolutely butches and femmes have feelings; we all want to be accepted and loved without the fear of being rejected.

[Billy]

I have enjoyed reading this thread ...
I remember when I went to My first bash , It was confusing for Me ...I saw folks like Toughy and Mr C that where very masculine and yet folks would say she or her ..I caught Myself saying he or him , I did not understand all that at the time ..Its threads like this that really help folks understand how different we all are and it's ok I STILL have a hard time keeping up with ALL the ID's , but I do My best to not disrespect anyone ..