What every Femme should know...

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by Julie

Kobi,

I think you are reading more into it than I intended.

I do not place Femme's higher on my love list than I place my partner who is Butch. I love my Femme sisters differently. My relationship with my Femme Sisters is different than my relationship with my partner and it is different than my relationships with Butches or Trans Guys for that matter.

Let's use this as an example (Femme's Femme) and why my Femme Sisters and that Sisterhood is more important. I am not saying that I would be okay with a Femme Sister if they did something hurtful and unkind. I would call them out and perhaps I would question my friendship with them.

Two Femme (Femme A and Femme B) friends are at a party. Femme (A) has made it known she has this crush on this Butch. All of her friends know this and the two of them have been communicating and slowly developing. While Femme A and Femme B are not great friends, they are social at times and are friendly. Femme B gets a look at said Butch and slowly makes her move. Femme B has the knowledge that Femme A is developing this relationship. Femme B does not care. Femme B has decided at all costs to move in and make her play.

A Femme's Femme would not do this. A Femme's Femme would respect Femme A and step back.

Another Example.

Femme A knows that Femme B and Butch are having relationship issues. She consoles and acts as a confidant to Femme B. Femme B cries in the ear of Femme A. Femme B is heartbroken when the relationship ends and in the process has shared intimate details with Femme A.

Femme A makes her move. She then slides in and friends the Butch. They start developing a relationship and not only has Femme B lost her partner, she has been manipulated and hurt by her friend Femme A.

A Femme's Femme would never ever ever do this.

My reference to what every butch should know, was a tad sarcastic. Perhaps why it appeared as a double standard and confusing. I would never assume to know what anybody should know. I only have my experiences. The only thing that I would ever possibly say that a Butch should know - Show your Femme respect. But I would say this to a Femme as well. Just be respectful, but hopefully everybody already knows this.

That is not to say, people should not date who they want and find love. But this is a tough one. Where do you draw the line?

Example:
I have shared many intimate details about my relationship with some of my Femme Sisters. My partner knows I share these things. Intimate details which have helped me process aspects of my relationship. DJ and I break up. My dear dear Femme Sister decides it is okay to pursue my ex without talking to me. Talk to me FIRST! But for god sake, give me time to heal.

I have fixed up friends with two of my exes. I thought... WOW, these two would make a great match. Different than the above example. I had a friend tell me years later, she ran into an ex of mine. How would I feel if they pursued something. I thought it great. After an ex and I broke up, and the wounds were still painful for me. A Femme I know called me and asked if I would put in a good word for her. Put in a good word? Are you kidding me? Not a Femme's Femme.

Make more sense?

Julie

Ok. I think I got you now.

You seem to be saying 2 things - there is a friendship code, so to speak, of behavior you expect from people who know you well, In my head, that is a friend thing not a Butch or Femme thing.

Then there is a Femme code of honor, so to speak, as to expected behavior in a relatively closed community in order to promote harmony rather then conflict.

Yes?

[Julie]

Originally Posted by Kobi

Ok. I think I got you now.

You seem to be saying 2 things - there is a friendship code, so to speak, of behavior you expect from people who know you well, In my head, that is a friend thing not a Butch or Femme thing.

Then there is a Femme code of honor, so to speak, as to expected behavior in a relatively closed community in order to promote harmony rather then conflict.

Yes?

Exactly. Butch or Femme... Behave appropriately.
Code of Honor... Simply respect for one another. Sex is not as important as friendships, when there is a cost to be paid.

Yes.

[NorCalStud]

First thing I looked at when op posted is their join date and their number of posts. Jan.2012 5posts. On the way to education...the op was laughed at, kinda yelled at, and I dont know this person but (no pun intended) if it was just me...I might look at the two words double message in our communities. If their had been a vibeswatcher....?? Not such a good vibe. I have to be honest...the way the op was educated gives me pause for thought about moving in closer in this community

[BullDog]

An individual copies and pastes something they find on the internet.

Then other individuals- mostly femmes- add their own personal and very detailed responses to a thread entitled "What Every Femme Should Know" and they are the ones being criticized? Wow.

I don't see the conversation being critical of the OP since he didn't write it.

If someone wants to send a special message to an individual femme they like maybe a different title would convey that better. If the message appealed to the one femme then mission accomplished and why so defensive?

I personally am finding a lot of value in this conversation.

[LaneyDoll]

The OP reminded me of a poem someone once shared with me. Soooooo, I think I am going to go share it now...

[NorCalStud]

You know the segment on snl where they examine an issue and say "cmon really" at some point. I gotta say it. Cmon really.

I agree because Im a feminist. We are educating about the use of the word Every. Wrong choice of word

Im discussing how the education was delivered. It wasnt as loving as it could have been. Cmon really...the whole story has to include the part in the education where the op was made fun of

[Dude]

I dont see the laughing at or any yelling.
what >every< femme should know is a big statement

the poster is responsible for what they put out there
is this really gonna be called bullying stuff in here ?

[Tawse]

To me - I read it like I read Twilight (yes I did read all four books and I still think book four was written by some rabid fans).

It was on one hand fun to read and on the other hand - deeply disturbing.

It's not realistic.

Now - we all like to escape reality at times - and that type of love and attraction (remember Edward DID watch Bella all night) is... wow.

But then when you think about the *reality* of that - it's creepy and completely unrealistic.


Ok now on to the title. If a femme posted about something all butches/TGs/FtMs should know - and it contained stuff that was unrealistic and creepy. I'd probably say something.

I don't know. I'm torn.

I get the romantic gesture.

But I really don't want anyone staring at me all night, or during a movie, or being so consumed by me that if I decided we weren't going to work out - I'd be scared of them stalking or killing me.

But that being said..

I read all four of the twilight books


but that being said...

I make fun of them all the time.


See I'm conflicted. lol

[Julie]

Originally Posted by NorCalStud

First thing I looked at when op posted is their join date and their number of posts. Jan.2012 5posts. On the way to education...the op was laughed at, kinda yelled at, and I dont know this person but (no pun intended) if it was just me...I might look at the two words double message in our communities. If their had been a vibeswatcher....?? Not such a good vibe. I have to be honest...the way the op was educated gives me pause for thought about moving in closer in this community

We all have our various ways of reacting and responding.

I have read through all of the posts and I do not see where the OP was yelled at. I think many of us have tried to educate and explain the problem with such a posting as this.

Where is your education in this? I would like to know how you would speak to the OP in a constructive manner that would inform and educate, not only him, but other members of our community who might do the same thing.

Julie

[LaneyDoll]

Originally Posted by Tawse

Now - we all like to escape reality at times - and that type of love and attraction (remember Edward DID watch Bella all night) is... wow.

But then when you think about the *reality* of that - it's creepy and completely unrealistic.


Ok now on to the title. If a femme posted about something all butches/TGs/FtMs should know - and it contained stuff that was unrealistic and creepy. I'd probably say something.

I don't know. I'm torn.

I get the romantic gesture.

But I really don't want anyone staring at me all night, or during a movie, or being so consumed by me that if I decided we weren't going to work out - I'd be scared of them stalking or killing me.

I have had this happen with two different people.

One person I had been with for years. And one night, he drove hours just to watch me sleep. Kind of sweet.

The other, I was dating. And she told me that she stayed up and watched me sleep. Kind of creepy. THEN, she decided to do something "romantic" and called me when she knew I would not answer so that she could sing "You Are My Sunshine" to my voice mail. When I got the message a few days later (I never check voice mail) it felt bizarre and stalkerish but mostly because she sang in a whispery, breathy, "Happy Birthday Mr. President sans Marilyn Monroe sexiness" kind of voice. Sing it to yourself-see how it sounds; I will wait while you shudder.

I think that with ALL gestures, there is always a way to add in the weird, psychopathic overtones.

[Novelafemme]

Originally Posted by weatherboi

i often see posts and threads that describe how femmes should act or be perceived. It leads to some really educational conversations about how greatly diverse and empowering the femme community is! i am always disappointed when it gets met with the same sentiment and defense. It is disheartening to see so many people get defensive about people making a stand for their own style of space. Can we please stop playing victim long enough to have a thoughtful conversation where everybody gets heard?

As a male identified person, i learned there are some things i am guilty of and i am glad people came in and spoke there minds about what is good for them and what isn't.

JistMe,

I would encourage you to read the above post and then read it again a couple more times after that. There are a great many things to be learned from some of our wonderful male identified community members. And something you might want to perhaps think about (or not) is checking those defensive behaviors at the door and leaving your mind and heart wide open to the amazing knowledge and life experiences you can absorb from long time B-F planteers. It takes a while (I know from personal experience) but it is so worth it!

[Tawse]

Originally Posted by LaneyDoll

One person I had been with for years. And one night, he drove hours just to watch me sleep.

I've driven all night before - but it wasn't to watch her sleep.


Maybe he was shocked you went to sleep and thought if he stared long enough you'd wake up... lol

[Novelafemme]

Originally Posted by Tawse

I've driven all night before - but it wasn't to watch her sleep.


Maybe he was shocked you went to sleep and thought if he stared long enough you'd wake up... lol

You are sooooo wrong.

[LaneyDoll]

Originally Posted by Tawse

I've driven all night before - but it wasn't to watch her sleep.


Maybe he was shocked you went to sleep and thought if he stared long enough you'd wake up... lol

If he had told me he was coming, I would have stayed up!!!

lol

[JAGG]

Originally Posted by June

Tell us what you think

And also, there are a few of us that would be rich if we had a dollar for every time we pissed someone off.

Better to be pissed off than pissed on I always say. Jist keep on posting friend who cares if people don't agree with what you like or think. No one is attacking you personally so don't take it so personal. If someone did or does in the future Admin will step in and correct the problem. You can post that the sky is blue and someone is going to make a post saying they disagree and yet another will be offended by your blanket statement. So they disagree . Big deal, who cares? If that's what I think and someone disagrees , so they different view point than I do. Doesn't make one wrong or the other one right, just different. Doesn't mean that person hates you or thinks less of you, it simply means they disagree. I love Juile to death and I'm sure she feels the same about me and I have disagreed an debated a 100 times in posts through the years. I know sometimes Lady Snow would love to hang me by my eyelashes,in some posts but go look at other posts and we are thanking each other. Because we don't dislike the person just disagree with a view point. So don't take it so hard. I don't care if everyone on the planet disagreed with a post I made, disagree until your heart is content but I will still have that same view point regardless. I respect their view I understand where they are coming from but I still see it differently. That's the beauty of it. Free speech. That's what makes a thread interesting. If everyone agreed with you this thread would have 4 posts and die off. But look how its rolling. Even the people that agree with you probably agree for totally different reasons than you do. But that's how threads work. You say something, someone else chimes in , and on it goes. Just keep posting friend say whatever you need to say and hit submitt. Don't worry about who likes it and who doesn't .

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by Julie

We all have our various ways of reacting and responding.

I have read through all of the posts and I do not see where the OP was yelled at. I think many of us have tried to educate and explain the problem with such a posting as this.

Where is your education in this? I would like to know how you would speak to the OP in a constructive manner that would inform and educate, not only him, but other members of our community who might do the same thing.

Julie

I dont want to speak for NorCalStud. I offer up the dialogue we had here today as an example of how education can be done in a constructive manner.

I wanted to ask the questions I did since yesterday. But, was hesitant to do so cuz when I have done so in the past, I have gotten my hat handed to me in what were, to me, unkind ways. Sometimes it was deserved. Sometimes maybe not.

Today, when I saw your post to Jist explaining how what occured was a good thing and why it was a good thing, it made me more comfortable taking the risk of asking my questions.

Today, I got a response that I appreciated because it helped me understand something in a different way without making me feel like I was a total ass for not getting it.

It helped a lot that you and I had a direct dialogue and that for the most part others stayed silent and let it develop. As a result, it wrapped up quickly. I was able to understand what you meant was not how I had read it. Simple enough.

Some times when others chime in to help with explanations, I find it more confusing and it feels like, tho it may not be intended as such, a gang bang. Sometimes more is not better. Sometimes more is just more confusing.

I think it also helps right off the bat to say something like "Jist maybe you dont realize that what you posted is problematic but it is and here's why". To me, that is putting the focus on the content rather than on the person. And the issue is with the content right?

If we dont make that clear from the start, then the passion in and focus of our posts makes it look like and feel like someone is being chastised. That makes it is easy to take it personally. Been there, done that. And, as a result, it is easy to become defensive. It might be different for you but once I am on the defensive, even if you explain that it is not me but the content, it takes a while for the emotion to dissipate.

When I saw your explanation of why it was a good thing, I could reread the posts and see it in a different light, tho some still smarted a bit.

I also reminded myself that taking a snip from its context can be misleading cuz without context the words can mean something totally different. If I had read your entire post and the sequence of posts, I probably would have understood the words differently. But maybe not cuz I was caught up in the tone (passion) which felt kind of hostile not good.

Does that make sense?

[Corkey]

I think the usage of words is important, if the title had been something along the lines of what every femme should know ( about me ) then perhaps it may have made it more palatable.
Blanket statements tend to get discussed, as they should. Making "I" statements not so much.
I do not believe anyone attacked the op, and speaking for me, this is me being "nice".
I think integrity and honesty are important, and explaining why blanket statements are not such a good thing in any community.
Sentiments are great, but stereotypical misogynistic statements are going to get discussed. Yey for diversity!

[weatherboi]

i don't equate passion for hostility. i think it is on the reader not to make up stuff in there heads about a members tone of post. we are all adults here and as long as everybody is following the TOS it should be all good. Honestly all this talk of how the femmes should voice their opinions and the accusations of yelling and laughing sounds like the same old deflective song and dance some butches and transguys do when they have a hard time accepting they have crossed a boundary or insulted some femme or not femme members.

[BullDog]

Passionate does not equate hostility.

Kobi, why are you always trying to control the "tone" of how people speak (usually femmes)? It is seriously irritating.

[Julie]

Originally Posted by Kobi

I dont want to speak for NorCalStud. I offer up the dialogue we had here today as an example of how education can be done in a constructive manner.

I wanted to ask the questions I did since yesterday. But, was hesitant to do so cuz when I have done so in the past, I have gotten my hat handed to me in what were, to me, unkind ways. Sometimes it was deserved. Sometimes maybe not.

Today, when I saw your post to Jist explaining how what occured was a good thing and why it was a good thing, it made me more comfortable taking the risk of asking my questions.

Today, I got a response that I appreciated because it helped me understand something in a different way without making me feel like I was a total ass for not getting it.

It helped a lot that you and I had a direct dialogue and that for the most part others stayed silent and let it develop. As a result, it wrapped up quickly. I was able to understand what you meant was not how I had read it. Simple enough.

Some times when others chime in to help with explanations, I find it more confusing and it feels like, tho it may not be intended as such, a gang bang. Sometimes more is not better. Sometimes more is just more confusing.

I think it also helps right off the bat to say something like "Jist maybe you dont realize that what you posted is problematic but it is and here's why". To me, that is putting the focus on the content rather than on the person. And the issue is with the content right?

If we dont make that clear from the start, then the passion in and focus of our posts makes it look like and feel like someone is being chastised. That makes it is easy to take it personally. Been there, done that. And, as a result, it is easy to become defensive. It might be different for you but once I am on the defensive, even if you explain that it is not me but the content, it takes a while for the emotion to dissipate.

When I saw your explanation of why it was a good thing, I could reread the posts and see it in a different light, tho some still smarted a bit.

I also reminded myself that taking a snip from its context can be misleading cuz without context the words can mean something totally different. If I had read your entire post and the sequence of posts, I probably would have understood the words differently. But maybe not cuz I was caught up in the tone (passion) which felt kind of hostile not good.

Does that make sense?

I have been really working hard to not react and respond. I know in the past, I have jumped in and voiced my very strong opinion. Sometimes it was valid and warranted, other times I know I could have handled the situation better. But emotions do come in. We are all human beings with one common attribute. We are emotional. Be it rational or irrational, emotions are simply that.

Each of us here have our own skills in communicating. Not all people can formulate the structure of educating posters in one form or another. We all have our individual styles. I have been accused on numerous occasions of ganging up - dog piling, etc. I will use my relationship with Snow as an example. Snow and I are friends. We also share a lot of the same political views, as well as how we as Femme's and Women prefer to be addressed and spoken to.

And here comes the BAM!

If Snow is positing in a thread which might be controversial and then I come in and post in that thread, with similar thought processes - We are immediately called out for ganging up on the person. This is really unfair Kobi and unjust. It just so happens that we are friends and share similar thought processes. I stopped posting for awhile, because I got tired of people yelling and screaming gang bang or dog pile. It got really old. I thought about NOT posting in this thread, because Snow posted before me - but I said... Bullshit. These are my thoughts and emotions and I have every right to post in a thread, as does Snow, as do you and as does every other community member here, without people screaming their automatic response of being bullied because they are being called out.

I am glad we had the dialogue we did. It was absolutely constructive and it was good. But I do want to say. Just because we had the dialogue we did and it was positive - does not mean others will have the same type of dialogue. We all communicate differently and that is in part what makes this community so rich and diverse.

Julie