Forgiveness

[girl_dee]

Originally Posted by Kätzchen

I agree with JAGG.....

Forgiveness doesn't do anything for me, at all.

Forgiveness is an concept, which to me, requires some form of pennance, or some form of repentance and corrective measures applied. In my mind, forgiveness serves no one.

Forgiveness or to forgive someone has never served any purpose in my life.

I actually learned in therapy that it's okay to not believe in forgiveness..... that it's okay to let go and move forward with my life.

do you think some consider *letting go* forgiving?

[Kätzchen]

Originally Posted by girl_dee

do you think some consider *letting go* forgiving?

I do not equate letting go as the same thing as forgiveness.

Letting Go is the process by which you simply resolve to let go.

Forgiveness is not about letting go. Forgiveness requires an an whole other set of requirements to be accomplished in order for one to be able to let go....or move forward.

I don't believe in forgiveness, at all.

I'm my own "hero" for being able to let go and move on.

Btw, I heart you as my femme sister in our community, dee! ❤

[Brisa]

Some people can be forgiven and some can never be forgiven....and there you have it

[Greco]

Let G_d forgiven them. I have a life to
fully live, and family, friends, and eventually a woman to fully love.
May sound cruel, but I've learned a lot.

So, yes, let G_d forgive them. No explanations necessary.

Greco

[*Anya*]

Originally Posted by Kätzchen

>>>snip<<<

Forgiveness is an concept, which to me, requires some form of pennance, or some form of repentance and corrective measures applied. In my mind, forgiveness serves no one.

Forgiveness or to forgive someone has never served any purpose in my life.

I actually learned in therapy that it's okay to not believe in forgiveness..... that it's okay to let go and move forward with my life.

I honestly never thought about it exactly like this.

The concept of letting go, for me, is everything and it really is not the same as forgiveness.

Holding onto anger, resentment or bitterness hurts me more than another person. Letting go of all of that really feels liberating.

My clients talk about doing their 12-steps and getting stuck on making amends. They state that they are afraid the person they want to make amends to will not forgive them. I try to reinforce that they are making amends for themself; not to expect the other person to "forgive" them.

I never thought about it in terms of letting go but I think it is the same thing.

I can't really move on until I let go. That is really difficult for me.

I need to work on this.

[girl_dee]

Originally Posted by Kätzchen

I do not equate letting go as the same thing as forgiveness.

Letting Go is the process by which you simply resolve to let go.

Forgiveness is not about letting go. Forgiveness requires an an whole other set of requirements to be accomplished in order for one to be able to let go....or move forward.

I don't believe in forgiveness, at all.

I'm my own "hero" for being able to let go and move on.

Btw, I heart you as my femme sister in our community, dee! ❤

i heart you too!!! i love your way of thinking

[CherylNYC]

Originally Posted by Kätzchen

I do not equate letting go as the same thing as forgiveness.

Letting Go is the process by which you simply resolve to let go.

Forgiveness is not about letting go. Forgiveness requires an an whole other set of requirements to be accomplished in order for one to be able to let go....or move forward.

I don't believe in forgiveness, at all.

I'm my own "hero" for being able to let go and move on.

Btw, I heart you as my femme sister in our community, dee! ❤

I could never quite understand what 'forgiveness' really means. The closest definition I ever found for myself was that forgiving someone means you're saying to them that whatever happened is OK now. There are some things that will simply NEVER be ok, so I couldn't figure out why I was supposed to forgive them. So I didn't, and I don't. But I do strive to let go. I agree with Katchen. It's not the same thing at all.

[MsTinkerbelly]

And......

I disagree with most of you (surprise, lol), THAT never happens.

Forgiveness is an easy concept when you are simply forgiving the person for being human and having (sometimes horrible) faults. We are human, and therefore we fail...we hurt..we cause serious pain to others.

I must personally forgive them of the sin of not being perfect and causing me harm, but I NEVER forget the wrong done to me and THAT is what will color my future relationship or complete absence from their lives. To forget what has been done, and set yourself up for repeated hurt is (to me) the height of foolishness.

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by CherylNYC

I could never quite understand what 'forgiveness' really means. The closest definition I ever found for myself was that forgiving someone means you're saying to them that whatever happened is OK now. There are some things that will simply NEVER be ok, so I couldn't figure out why I was supposed to forgive them. So I didn't, and I don't. But I do strive to let go. I agree with Katchen. It's not the same thing at all.

I dont understand what forgiveness means either. Being Catholic, forgiveness was always an absolution of some real or perceived wrong and a wiping the slate clean.

Yet, things do have an impact and an aftermath in varying degrees. The slate is never wiped clean. The slate can be changed or altered but it is never the same. That is not always a bad thing.

My concern is always for restoring my own sense of peace and how I choose to do that. It is the only thing I have control over.

Learning from and making adjustments to is not forgiveness to me. It is just growth in service to the self.

[girl_dee]

Originally Posted by Kobi

I dont understand what forgiveness means either. Being Catholic, forgiveness was always an absolution of some real or perceived wrong and a wiping the slate clean.

Yet, things do have an impact and an aftermath in varying degrees. The slate is never wiped clean. The slate can be changed or altered but it is never the same. That is not always a bad thing.

My concern is always for restoring my own sense of peace and how I choose to do that. It is the only thing I have control over.

Learning from and making adjustments to is not forgiveness to me. It is just growth in service to the self.

I'm not snipping but part of this resonates. i need to do what feels right to me.

i get so angry when i am told that i must forgive. grrrr

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by girl_dee

I'm not snipping but part of this resonates. i need to do what feels right to me.

i get so angry when i am told that i must forgive. grrrr

Just my take on this....usually when someone else "suggests" I need to forgive, forget, let go of or whatever word/phrase is used, it is more about what they need, not what I need.

The snipping made me smile We're good.

[Kätzchen]

Originally Posted by *Anya*

I honestly never thought about it exactly like this.

The concept of letting go, for me, is everything and it really is not the same as forgiveness.

Holding onto anger, resentment or bitterness hurts me more than another person. Letting go of all of that really feels liberating.

My clients talk about doing their 12-steps and getting stuck on making amends. They state that they are afraid the person they want to make amends to will not forgive them. I try to reinforce that they are making amends for themself; not to expect the other person to "forgive" them.

I never thought about it in terms of letting go but I think it is the same thing.

I can't really move on until I let go. That is really difficult for me.

I need to work on this.

The piece about your clients getting stuck on the amends step is exactly why Forgiveness as an social corrective does not help. It's largely why I think forgiveness isn't beneficial for either party. (See, other comments in my post below, ok?)

But I agree with you that Letting Go is not the same thing as Forgiveness.

Originally Posted by CherylNYC

I could never quite understand what 'forgiveness' really means. The closest definition I ever found for myself was that forgiving someone means you're saying to them that whatever happened is OK now. There are some things that will simply NEVER be ok, so I couldn't figure out why I was supposed to forgive them. So I didn't, and I don't. But I do strive to let go. I agree with Katchen. It's not the same thing at all.

I personally like and resonate with your thoughts Cheryl! That's the thing: My mom has always felt and pushed for me to 'forgive' two members of my family for sexually assaulting me. Even after my mother walked in on my dad having sex in their bed with literally the woman next door, she STILL cannot grasp the gravity of how it feels to be sexually traumatized. Why on earth would I ever 'forgive' the person for sexually assaulting me? That's akin to saying "thanks for fucking up my life and now it's okay," when it will NEVER be okay, ever.

I loved your take on this subject, Cheryl!

Originally Posted by Kobi

I dont understand what forgiveness means either. Being Catholic, forgiveness was always an absolution of some real or perceived wrong and a wiping the slate clean.

Yet, things do have an impact and an aftermath in varying degrees. The slate is never wiped clean. The slate can be changed or altered but it is never the same. That is not always a bad thing.

My concern is always for restoring my own sense of peace and how I choose to do that. It is the only thing I have control over.

Learning from and making adjustments to is not forgiveness to me. It is just growth in service to the self.

I personally like the piece you address about what we have control over. I agree that we only have control over our own selves and that is why I think Letting Go works out best for me.

Letting Go is taking ownership of our thoughts and feelings and prioritizing our lives in ways that puts safety first.

Originally Posted by girl_dee

I'm not snipping but part of this resonates. i need to do what feels right to me.

i get so angry when i am told that i must forgive. grrrr

This is why the social contract of "forgiveness" will never work for me. The victim is never served by forgiving the perpetrator.
WHEN I practice Letting Go, is does not mean that the perpetrator wins. Letting Go comes from my heart with compassion for myself and compassion for the offender. I'm not God. I'm not perfect. I'm not in charge of judging whether any person or event deserves "forgiveness." Letting Go is beneficial for myself because then I am in a position to not give anymore power to the offense or offender. Letting go empowers me to disrupt the cycle of the notion that I don't have to forgive or forget. Letting Go is am opportunity to focus on me, my needs and my recovery. I can only own my behaviors and thoughts and actions. Letting go sets me free to take care of me.

Originally Posted by Kobi

Just my take on this....usually when someone else "suggests" I need to forgive, forget, let go of or whatever word/phrase is used, it is more about what they need, not what I need.

The snipping made me smile We're good.

I personally loved reading your thoughts Kobi.
Thanks for communicating and driving the point home about prioritizing for our own lives and what we need for an desireable outcome, which emphasizes and privileges our own well being.

[FireSignFemme]

I can't remember now the name of the author or title of the book, but basically the writer said when it comes to forgiveness there are four basic personality types - those who are

Slow to anger/Quick to Forgive
Slow to anger/Slow to forgive
Quick to anger/Quick to forgive
Quick to anger/Slow to forgive

I think that's an over simplification but even so it has me wondering - If given only those four options, in most situations, which would you say best describes you?

[Tuff Stuff]

Originally Posted by MsTinkerbelly

And......

I disagree with most of you (surprise, lol), THAT never happens.

Forgiveness is an easy concept when you are simply forgiving the person for being human and having (sometimes horrible) faults. We are human, and therefore we fail...we hurt..we cause serious pain to others.

I must personally forgive them of the sin of not being perfect and causing me harm, but I NEVER forget the wrong done to me and THAT is what will color my future relationship or complete absence from their lives. To forget what has been done, and set yourself up for repeated hurt is (to me) the height of foolishness.

It's true,people are human and we make mistakes all the time,we ARE NOT! perfect in any way shape or form.I have come to understand that at my age.If you have it in your heart to do so,I agree,better to forgive and move on.I'm talking regular average people here and not people who are in position of power like politicians and people like the Pope,that's a whole other breed of people that have to be almost perfect,because the decisions they make can have a major impact on our lives.

Of course,some people in this world are just down right mean and ugly.I've learned to stay away from those types,period.lol

Btw, I am Slow to anger/Quick to forgive

[cathexis]

Agree with Katzchen's post about letting go. One concept excepted, I cannot give compassion to the offender. Deep inside me, there is always anger for the major offender. It takes much to drive me to anger, but once someone has crossed that line it's all over.

How can one give compassion if the results of the offense affect every minute of every day? The lingering of severe psychological trauma does not allow me to let it go. Some wounds never heal. If I am not able to heal, they will not receive my compassion.

Such an offender does not deserve compassion!

[girl_dee]

Originally Posted by FireSignFemme

I can't remember now the name of the author or title of the book, but basically the writer said when it comes to forgiveness there are four basic personality types - those who are

Slow to anger/Quick to Forgive
Slow to anger/Slow to forgive
Quick to anger/Quick to forgive
Quick to anger/Slow to forgive

I think that's an over simplification but even so it has me wondering - If given only those four options, in most situations, which would you say best describes you?

slow to anger/slow to forgive..

caveat, it depends on the offense on how i anger or forgive.

[Kätzchen]

Originally Posted by cathexis

Agree with Katzchen's post about letting go. One concept excepted, I cannot give compassion to the offender. Deep inside me, there is always anger for the major offender. It takes much to drive me to anger, but once someone has crossed that line it's all over.

How can one give compassion if the results of the offense affect every minute of every day? The lingering of severe psychological trauma does not allow me to let it go. Some wounds never heal. If I am not able to heal, they will not receive my compassion.

Such an offender does not deserve compassion!

I disagree with you, respectfully.

The purpose of Letting Go is to let go without punitive attitude.
When I Let Go, it's an act of compassion for myself and it's an act of compassion for the offender. The purpose of Letting Go is only achievable if we truly let go of the pain or anger or any other emotion which prevents us from attending to our own selves.

I choose Letting Go because, once again, I need to disrupt the drain circling process of the social contract around Forgiveness. Forgiveness does nothing for me. I feel it's a much better outcome when I actively choose to Let Go. Letting Go is the only feasible solution for me and it's helped me to focus on tending to my own self and empowers me to take care of me.