05-18-2010, 02:55 PM | #81 | |
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The best approximation is that I give masculine and male voices more weight in my own mind than feminine and female voices - including my own. This is not intentional or even conscious. But in reaction to feedback from masculine or male voices, I have a sort of comply or defy reaction. Much of the time my reaction is defiance, as I do not want to comply or feel oppressed. In the men with boobs thread, butch women were stating once again that they want their gender to be respected, and a few said femmes were often more likely to use an incorrect pronoun or indicate in other ways a lack of respect for butch women. What I heard was a demand for more deference than they already get from me. And I had a hard time with that because whether or not I show deference to butches, I give them more weight than I do other femme voices or even my own. So requests for more deference feel overwhelming and upsetting for me. But after wrestling with it, reading reactions to the post where I voiced this as well as reactions to a few other frustrated femmes, it seems to me like I have been mishearing this whole time due to my own limitations. There is an ocean of difference between respect and deference, and I suspect giving respect would not wear a person out the way deference might. And if I am deferring to butch and male and masculine voices over femme voices, that sucks regarding my relationship to other femmes and women and with myself as well. I would guess my upbringing and a good 32 years of life have gotten me here. I am not sure if laughing at what a guy says is not an act of defiance, but I can imagine losing your mother young and having been out longer may neutralize some of the stuff in the water. Or it's also possible it's just a me thing.
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05-18-2010, 03:05 PM | #82 |
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I find it refreshing that as time goes by, more femmes are becoming vocal about how they embrace femme. By speaking out, we can start breaking down those "stepford wives" sterotypes that so many people have stuck in their head of what femmes should be.
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05-18-2010, 03:07 PM | #83 | |
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No, that makes sense about me and men I think. Maybe I am defiant. I have not thought about it from that standpoint. I actually am kind of defiant in general and hate being told what to do by anyone. Like I REALLY hate it. I am not sure I treat anyone with deference, unless they are really old. Respect yes, deference no. At 32, I think I did though. 40 was a big watershed for me. I have experienced Femmes absolutely refusing to call Cynthia "She: or even "Cynthia". Several have suggested she go by "Chris", because they had been "taught" that Butches should be referred to as Hy or He and by a male name. I am glad that you now see the difference in respecting their wishes as a person and giving them deference because they are Butch or Male. Nat, I have always thought you were very respectful of people and way more open minded about gender fluidity than most. I can see you have given this a lot of though and am glad you have come to the conclusion that respect does not mean deference. I hope that as you age the voice in your head that says a male voice is more powerful than a female voice fades, like it has for me. I think it will. Very interesting discussion!
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05-18-2010, 03:18 PM | #84 | |
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When I walked into the lobby at the Dallas Bash (yep, my first official B-F function), I was wearing a tank top, shorts & flip flops and everyday makeup. I smiled and gave the nod to many people that I recognized (because I am a gallery whore). It wasn't until I went upstairs, changed clothes, and came down (in full hair extensions & makeup) that someone finally said, "hey, you're PinkieLee". Yep, I know that is partly my fault, for only posting pictures of me looking a certain way. Over the years, I've started showing more of Tonya and less of PinkieLee. Some people like to see the many different femme faces that I wear... others only want to see the party girl side of me. See, yet again, another femme sterotype that I'm supposed to look like that 24/7. I don't know a single femme that wears makeup every single day or shops at the grocery store in 4 inch heels. |
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05-18-2010, 03:25 PM | #85 | |
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Grin! Me either. Not a single one. It is fun to play dress up sometimes and yes I look better in makeup than without...which is probably why I tend to post party pictures. That and I don't like having my picture taken, so all I have are partyish photos. PS and the boa leaves feathers all over the place.
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05-18-2010, 03:37 PM | #86 |
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I grew up in a world that tried to force me to look and act a certain way. I was raised to be the "pretty little thing in her pink little dress".
Although, I did end up embracing that role, it has always been horrifying to me that when I meet straight men or other lesbians, I hear " if you wanted to date something that looked like a man, why don't you just date men?" No one has the right to judge how I choose to fuck, or who I choose to fuck! And, just because I am femme, in NO way means that I should be with someone that I don't want to be with! I have been very hesitant to comment because I am not looking to upset anyone or cause anything. I am purely just speaking for myself here. This is how I feel. |
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05-18-2010, 03:47 PM | #87 | |
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I have heard the same words and was raised similarly. I hate it when someone suggests that they have a better idea of whom I should date than I do! Grrrrr. People need to mind their own bees wax!
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05-18-2010, 04:52 PM | #88 | |
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05-18-2010, 05:25 PM | #89 |
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i am kind of talked out on this subject. i have said it all before. i have enjoyed some of the posts a lot. i don't buy into the continuum idea. i am femme. End of that conversation.
Most of the talk about femme doesn't resonate for me. i don't think of it so much in terms of my femininity or even my relationship to butches. i came out as femme about the same time i came out as kinky. And one of the things i had to defend was loving to get fucked and loving to get fucked by big mean butches. These days, that's everyday gender performance. A femme talking about loving to go down on her butch partner is more likely to evoke surprise. But back in the day, it was shocking. i am femme because it's part of my history. i don't express it in everything that i do and in every way that i fuck. i don't exude femme. i don't represent femme. i don't define it or let it define me. i don't classify everything that i do in terms of gender expression. If i spread my legs wide, i may not be enacting my inner boy or expressing my inner whore. i may just be getting comfortable. If my bedroom is decorated with pink and yellow scarves and floral prints this year while last year it was all chrome and black and white photos, it may not mean anything more than i wanted some color. i don't play with gender for pleasure although i have in the past. i am old and settled and comfortable. i like gender in me and in others. Absence of gender markers is not hot to me. But gender is not my major (or even minor) route of self-discovery. In most ways, my gender expression has turned out to look a lot like my straight vanilla mother's did. So it clearly hasn't been that closely tied to my queerness or my kink. |
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05-18-2010, 05:36 PM | #90 | |
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For me, it starts to feel like deference when femmes are policed more on and held more accountable for pronoun mistakes. Let me be clear, I'm not at all saying that I don't see the desperate need for everyone to determine their own pronoun and have it respected. I'm addressing the trend I've seen that in the majority of apocryphal stories told about misuse of pronouns (intentional or not), the femme is always "getting it wrong." Why is that? Are femmes the only ones who do this? No. And that is when it starts to feel like deference to me.
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05-18-2010, 05:39 PM | #91 |
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I would love this too.
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05-18-2010, 05:57 PM | #92 | |
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I don't have a good method for quantifying what the reality is. If I had enough time or enough help to go back through a day's worth of everybody's posts or even just the threads that are specifically about gender recognition and respect and pull out every statement about those who "get it wrong" and see how many of them are femmes and if there is an objective way to measure the difference in tone between the statements about femmes and the statements about others who "get it wrong." And then to go back through - and I really don't know how this would even be done - and find every single time a person has "gotten it wrong" to calculate who is getting it wrong and in which direction - well I'm sure it would be fascinating research but very difficult and time-consuming. So, what I'm left with is a feeling. A feeling I don't know what to do with. I don't know if it's valid. I don't know how much of it is internal and how much external. I don't know how to gauge that either.
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05-18-2010, 06:01 PM | #93 | |
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I don't think asking anyone to use the correct pronoun is a form of policing, it's just polite and showing someone consideration, if they are asking and clearly stating this is their preference why wouldn't I respect that or why wouldn't anyone? We (Femmes) want respect, want our gender to be heard, seen and respected, the same goes for everyone else. Not policing you here, just sharing and talking this out. Thanks for listening
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05-18-2010, 06:23 PM | #94 | ||
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Maybe we need to enact some sort of femme hanky code. Quote:
My latest frustration is that I made the mistake of complimenting a straight cisgendered man on his charisma and speaking skills after he spoke in front of the class (and did so brilliantly), and he interpreted that as an open invitation to my pants. Not only am I invisible as a queer person, but the consequence of that is having to fend off unwanted advances from cisgendered straight guys. Then again, being interpreted as a lesbian is no guarantee of sexual harrassment avoidance.
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05-18-2010, 07:26 PM | #95 | |
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Indulge me again... When the pronoun topic comes up online, stories are told about bad experiences with pronouns. It seems these stories always revolve around some femme messing up pronouns. We seem to focus on and remember more easily when a femme does this than when any other identity misconstrues pronouns. I hope that is more clear, I'm certainly not saying that pronoun awareness or asking someone to use the correct pronoun is a form of policing.
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05-18-2010, 07:31 PM | #96 | |
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I see it all the time femme's defaulting to the he pronoun automatically, and when the butch or person corrects them, they have been know to be dismissive, and insulting and even go as far as ASK why they aren't so. That's what *I* I am talking about when I am speaking of that particular matter. Thanks for listening
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05-18-2010, 07:32 PM | #97 | |
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Its like we are held to a different/higher standard as if we should "know better" |
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05-18-2010, 07:33 PM | #98 | |
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No that is not what is being said at all from what I gather from *any* of the femme's who have voiced their opinions on this and experiences. Thank you
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05-18-2010, 07:35 PM | #99 |
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I can NOT be the only one on the interwebz who has witnessed a Femme and a male Id'd Butch fall in love. Glitter and unicorns ensue. THEN they break up.
Inevitably, the Femme will come to a thread and switch to using female pronouns and birth names in an attempt to emasculate said Butch. THAT makes me crazy and is a thousand time worse than being lazy or making a simple mistake. I'm not the only one? Am I? |
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05-18-2010, 07:51 PM | #100 | |
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Is it only femmes? Or do "we" (the collective we) just notice it more and remember it more? I've seen it from both sides of the fence.
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