The RuPaul Drag T*Word Controversy

[Medusa]

So I was wondering if anyone else has been following the controvery surrounding the use of the word "Tr*nny" by the RuPaul Drag Race show, Rupaul, and many of its contestants?

I have seen countless op-eds and several write-ups all over Queerty, Facebook, and even the Logo website about this issue. There was an article today from a Trans Activist calling out the "fringe people" (word used by Rupaul and several others) for "trifling bullshit". (trying to quote as best I can).

From the outside, it looks like there are two distinct sides. Folks who think that the word "Tr*nny* is not offensive and should be used by anyone who wants it as a part of reclamation of oppressive language. And folks who say that the word is akin to the word "F*ggot" and should never be used by anyone.

Just wondering what your take is on this issue?

[anaisninja]

My personal opinion is that if the person using the word is a member of that group, then they get to decide whether or not it's appropriate to use it. Especially if the group has been historically oppressed or marginalized. Tim Wise gave a good statement about a similar word below. I will never use the T-word, but I would never begrudge RuPaul her right to use it.

However, as an overweight Canadian female of Irish descent, I reserve the right to call myself a "fat Canuck Mick bitch" whenever it seems appropriate.

[Martina]

I think "tranny" is universally understood as a pejorative. If some trans folks want to use it among themselves, then fine, who are cis folk to say? But I don't think cisgender folks ought to use it.

RuPaul did make the argument that tranny has been used to refer to a drag queens as well, and she is that. So if she is claiming it in that way, it does add a wrinkle.

I think the she-mail thing is kind of funny. It's a pun. A joke. It's not like a person was called a she-male. But I like humor that skirts the offensive.

Unrelated to this kerfluffle, I do think that the controversy about using the word transgender instead of transgendered is a joke. Sorry if I offended. But seriously? I get the argument, but some well-intentioned slob got badly publicly attacked for it a while ago. I think the person who reamed him quit some organization in protest and just had a major fit about it. I can't recall the details. But my response is OK, whatever.

I am old. I find gender studies unbelievably boring. Hence, I don't read a lot about it. I am surely more educated than 99% of Americans because of where I live and the communities I have belonged to, but if I accidentally say transgendered and some child angrily corrects me, we are going to have words.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by anaisninja

My personal opinion is that if the person using the word is a member of that group, then they get to decide whether or not it's appropriate to use it. Especially if the group has been historically oppressed or marginalized. Tim Wise gave a good statement about a similar word below. I will never use the T-word, but I would never begrudge RuPaul her right to use it.

RuPaul is a drag queen, not a trans person.

[Aryon]

I feel this way ... Tr**ny may be a word many hear used with distaste and in a derogatory manner ... but I seem to remember back in the days before and after I came out in 1969 that Dyke was used in a way to upset, antagonize, belittle, berate ... I could go on and on, really.

I see nothing wrong with the use of a noun/adjective by people who mean it justly, rather than condescending or derogatorily. I frequently use the word Dyke in place of Lesbian to describe myself and take no offence (even if it is meant) when called one.

My two pennies worth ...

Regards,

Aryon

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by Martina

I think "tranny" is universally understood as a pejorative. If some trans folks want to use it among themselves, then fine, who are cis folk to say? But I don't think cisgender folks ought to use it.

<CLIP>

Ditto.

RuPaul's use of this word is not new and there has been discussion in the trans* community about this for the last couple of years.

I do see the difference between a transsexual/transgender person (one who sees their identity as part of the opposite sex in some way) using the term "tranny", and someone who identifies as their assigned birth sex, but enjoys wearing clothes of the opposite gender (drag queens or transvestites...they may use the umbrella term transgender, but that is not less common), using the term.

I haven't read all the details, but my understanding is that RuPaul does not identify as a female. He identifies as a drag queen (and maybe with the term transgender as an umbrella term?). I assume he uses a male pronoun. If this is the case, and he is cissexed, than no, I do not think he should use the term "tranny". Just like the N work, the D word, etc. It really is common sense.

[Mel C.]

Interesting topic. I'm not sure why some people feel they can choose which words are acceptable for others to use and which are not. If somebody calls me "sweetie" it can be mean or nice. I think The onus is on me to determine the intent prior to reacting. I don't think I use the T-word but if I heard it or saw it somewhere, I would look for the context.

[anaisninja]

Originally Posted by Martina

RuPaul is a drag queen, not a trans person.

In that case, *He* shouldn't have used the term.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by anaisninja

In that case, *He* shouldn't have used the term.

RuPaul accepts the use of both male and female pronouns. I always refer to people in drag as the gender they are presenting. RuPaul usually presents herself to the public in drag, so I refer to her using female pronouns. As a drag queen, RuPaul is more than entitled to use female pronouns. It's part of the tradition, part of lgbtq history.

RuPaul, as far as I know, is a cisgender gay man, and I agree with you and with Dapper than she should not be using the word "tranny."

I looked up the she-male/mail thing, and I guess the show actually used the term "she-male" as well. I think that is a term no one should use. I can't even imagine transwomen using it among themselves in a friendly inoffensive way. There would always be a barb to it. I just thought it was funny when the phrase "You've got she-mail" was used. But I guess they used the regular version in another context on the show. No. Don't think they should do that.

[imperfect_cupcake]

So if someone is bigendered and not transsexual, they aren't transgendered? I thought transgendered was all kinds of rainbow. Has the meaning changed again? The "drag queens" I knew all considered themselves bigendered. Having two genders that don't display as congruent to their societal norm sex.
This is not transgendered anymore? Is transexual the only transgendered meaning in the US?

[stargazingboi]

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

So if someone is bigendered and not transsexual, they aren't transgendered? I thought transgendered was all kinds of rainbow. Has the meaning changed again? The "drag queens" I knew all considered themselves bigendered. Having two genders that don't display as congruent to their societal norm sex.
This is not transgendered anymore? Is transexual the only transgendered meaning in the US?

No Honeybarbara, I'm here in the US and tend to follow the medical definition of the word. I do this mainly because of my vocational back ground and the fact I, myself, happen to be TG. That being said...and as we have witnessed on this site, there are many interpretations of words.


Webster Dictionary - Medical terminology

Transgender - of, relating to, or being a person who identifies with or expresses a gender identity that differs from the one which corresponds to the person's sex at birth

Transexual - A person who strongly identifies with the opposite gender and who chooses to live as a member of the opposite gender or to become one by surgery.


So, when I think about it a transexual fall under both terms, but a person who is TG does not always fall under the term transexual. Now, when looking at the definition of Drag Queen ...it does not fall under either term listed above. A Drag Queen or Drag King is a person that dresses as the opposite sex for entertainment


Now regarding the actual subject at hand...I am still unsure how I want to word my feelings about the subject and will return to express it later.

[imperfect_cupcake]

I know people in the uk who both ID as a drag queen and a drag king and it it part of their bigenderism. And although some of them perform, they'd be pretty suprised to find out that one of their genders is only for entertainment value.

I don't agree with that, even slightly. But I don't understand a lot of labeling in the US...

To me tg is not ts. Two different things. But they seem to have both become tg in mainstream press.

And even that definition from Miriam Webster screws up sex and gender.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

they aren't transgendered? I thought transgendered was all kinds of rainbow.

Duck! She used the word "transgendered."

Pet peeve of mine -- the meaningless debate over what is wrong with transgenderED and why transgender is better.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/joanne..._b_492922.html

[stargazingboi]

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

And even that definition from Miriam Webster screws up sex and gender.

very true the Webster Dictionary is not fool proof because it is written by humans, but its a guideline.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

I know people in the uk who both ID as a drag queen and a drag king and it it part of their bigenderism. And although some of them perform, they'd be pretty suprised to find out that one of their genders is only for entertainment value.

I don't agree with that, even slightly. But I don't understand a lot of labeling in the US...

To me tg is not ts. Two different things. But they seem to have both become tg in mainstream press.

And even that definition from Miriam Webster screws up sex and gender.

That's ironic. This may be one way in which the UK is more gender-struck than we are. Usually, it goes the other way.

I have known a lot of gay male drag queens who never questioned their (cis)gender. I don't think that makes their drag persona just for entertainment value. They may identify strongly with it and still feel like cismen. Think of all the men over the decades who strongly identified with opera divas. Some may have been transgender. But most, I imagine, were not. There are many ways to be a man. I don't know. Maybe it's my age. But I have known very few gay men (not trans gay men) who ever ID'd as transgender.

Even if you look at all gender as a performance, even if you look at a drag queen and a transwoman standing side by side and see little difference in their outward presentation, they are different, very different. (I know that some transwomen DO do drag.) But drag is, well, different. I am sure you have seen as much drag as I have. But it's nothing like the way a transwoman presents in her daily life, IMO.

Some drag queens will have a moment in their performance when they drop their voice or do some physical gesture that reveals their masculine identity (sometimes a gesture toward the crotch to remind you there is a little something extra there). I guess it's to remind you that it IS drag. It's usually a delightful moment. Drag is so different from cross-dressing -- not a fetish -- and from being trans. There is a lot of hostility for drag queens from some transwomen. The "I am NOT a drag queen" thing. And they aren't. They aren't in drag.

I love drag. I think most drag queens are proud of being drag queens and also proud of being men.

There are clearly a lot more trans and transgender folk among drag kings.

[candy_coated_bitch]

I have known a lot of drag queens that DO identify as gender variant in some way. I think it's presumptuous to say that most drag queens are really just cis men in women's clothing and completely unrelated to trans women. (Not that anyone used those exact words, it's just my reaction.) I am not trying to say that the two are the SAME--but why do trans women have more of a right to name themselves tranny than a drag queen? I consider that historically drag queens have been pioneers in the LGBTQ rights movement from Stonewall on--and a huge part of that has been BECAUSE of blurring the lines of gender. Yes, there is a performance aspect of it--but not always.

I think trans________, however you may or may not end that word, is a wide and diverse group of people. Tranny has long been used before the word and concept of transgender as we know it now even existed. In my opinion, it has as much history and importance of reclamation as queer, dyke, faggot (and no I also do not agree that that is an off limits word as well), bitch, cunt, nigger, and so on and so forth. I think the reclaiming of language is important and powerful. It can be a liberating and powerful experience.

Also--how the fuck do we know how Ru Paul feels about his/her gender and what pronouns he/she may or may not use? To put the label of cis man on him BECAUSE he is a drag queen seems questionable to me. Ru Paul hasn't said much on the issue, but what I did read when he finally came out and addressed the issue was "fuck anybody who wants to police my language". Amen to that, I say. Just because a person spends SOME time living and identifying as a man I don't think it negates the time they spend living, identifying, performing, and embodying another gender if that is meaningful to them. I don't know specifically what Ru Paul's gendered experiences are but I am not going to make a judgment about what words are appropriate for him to use. I think drag queens absolutely can fall into the trans* and gender variant experience.

I use the word tranny. Not always, not with all people--but I do have trans friends I use it with. Just like I have gay friends I use the word fag with. On trans pride day we wish each other "Happy tranny day!"

I have been following the discussion online and I find it extremely ironic that the loudest voices in opposition to the use of the word tranny are cis folks. Not folks from the drag community, not trans women--CIS FOLKS. Things that make you go hmmm.

This is one really good viedo I liked on the pro tranny side, or at least one that allows for that view:

[candy_coated_bitch]

God damn my inability to post a YouTube video, if someone wants to PM me and help, I will post it.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by candy_coated_bitch

I have known a lot of drag queens that DO identify as gender variant in some way. I think it's presumptuous to say that most drag queens are really just cis men in women's clothing and completely unrelated to trans women. (Not that anyone used those exact words, it's just my reaction.)

I didn't use those words, but I did say something like that. I did qualify it by the people *I* have known. I do think there are a lot of drag queens who are pretty uncomplicatedly cis. It's been my experience. I am not sure what's presumptuous about saying that.

[Liam]

I don't use the term, and I would not like it, if someone called me that.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by candy_coated_bitch

Also--how the fuck do we know . . . what pronouns he/she may or may not use?

Ru has specifically said that she is fine with either pronoun. I don't know that that means a thing, but that's what she has said.