"Butch" and "Femme" - Truly Antiquated Terms or More Marginalization?

[dreadgeek]

You talk about us here and how much you love us and then state that we are selfish and ridiculous for taking offense at non-lesbians who express their dislike of the words we use to describe ourselves. That seems to dilute the whole "love" message. In fact it seems wildly disrespectful and dismissive- not loving at all.
You conclude that we are Changing and Evolving. What exactly do you mean by that?

<tongue=in cheek>

Think of it in the ways that computers evolve and change. For example, my first computer, which I bought back in the early 90's, was a 486/SX with (get ready for it) 16mb of RAM and a 126mb hard drive! Now, if I still had that machine I'm sure it would probably boot up but it wouldn't really be useful and no sane person would want one other than as a museum piece. There's nothing *wrong* with the 486/SX. It had its time and is an interesting piece of history but anyone who thinks it is still a truly useful piece of technology is hopelessly antiquarian and perhaps should be put out to technological pasture lest they mess things up for the rest of us. If one is still using a 486/SX one should, at minimum, have the common decency to be embarrassed about it.

My 18 month old Macbook Pro, on the other hand, has 4GB of RAM and 320GB hard drive. It is shiny and new. Hell the *video card* has 512mb of ram on it! It is useful, cool, and oh-so-very-sexy, if I do say so myself. Anyone should be happy and proud to have one. It has evolved. Now, of course, there's nothing WRONG with the person using a 19 year old computer---I mean some of my best friend's and all that. But really, my first machine could run one program at a time. If I was using Word Perfect, I couldn't play Sim City. My MBP has, as I write this, 15 programs running including iTunes with a 40GB music library. I still have another gig and a half to spare and I have not, in the nearly two years I've had it, managed to get my available memory down below a GB and trust me I have tried! Modern, sleek, useful.

It's sort of like that. Lesbians are 486/SX's, post-lesbians are Macbook Pros.

</tongue>

Cheers
Aj

[hippieflowergirl]

Anyone who doesn't want to id as a lesbian- fine and dandy. But some of these so-called definitions of lesbians and lesbian sex coming from non-identified lesbians are truly ridiculous and limited. Lesbians and our language have "evolved" just as much as the rest of the "advanced cutting edge gender identities"- queer/genderqueer etc.

I am real tired of the constant messages that lesbian and woman are somehow antiquated terms that others have evolved from.

I am real tired of how female, woman, lesbian are constantly being ridiculed and minimized in butch femme and queer communities- particularly when attached to butch

This post was written by a Proud Stone Butch Lesbian- who has female oriented sex because I am female and my intimate partners are female (I'm a homosexual, I'm queer, I'm lesbian), and yes I am stone too.

p.s. Cyclopea I saw absolutely nothing hostile in your tone. I thought you were being very matter of fact. I believe what some are saying is that female homosexual has more than one meaning.

hi Bulldog,

i wanted to take time to comment on your very honest and feeling post because i am the trouble maker in this conversation.

thank you for putting words to your feelings. i appreciate hearing them very sincerely.

i do not find it necessary, satisfying, relevant, desirable or appropriate to "ridicule" or "minimize" anyone...not women, not lesbians, not butches, not femmes, not transpersons, not genderqueers, not anyone. even Hitler gets 1 point on the scoreboard from me (he was a good artist).

i do not think the terms lesbian and woman are antiquated. i do not think they are irrelevant. if i have not made myself clear, i apologize. i see nothing wrong with any word i can think of. i wouldnt presume to find language offensive. i find it limiting at times, and i like watching its expansion, but i do not think it is wrong or right or any of those qualifying words. language just is.

i will make my point with something you said that proves the ways in which people using the same language can hear or understand 2 vastly different things. you said:
p.s. Cyclopea I saw absolutely nothing hostile in your tone. I thought you were being very matter of fact. I believe what some are saying is that female homosexual has more than one meaning.

i thought that Cyclopea was saying exactly the opposite.

thank you again for your honesty.


:hippie:

[Cyclopea]

<tongue=in cheek>

Think of it in the ways that computers evolve and change. For example, my first computer, which I bought back in the early 90's, was a 486/SX with (get ready for it) 16mb of RAM and a 126mb hard drive! Now, if I still had that machine I'm sure it would probably boot up but it wouldn't really be useful and no sane person would want one other than as a museum piece. There's nothing *wrong* with the 486/SX. It had its time and is an interesting piece of history but anyone who thinks it is still a truly useful piece of technology is hopelessly antiquarian and perhaps should be put out to technological pasture lest they mess things up for the rest of us. If one is still using a 486/SX one should, at minimum, have the common decency to be embarrassed about it.

My 18 month old Macbook Pro, on the other hand, has 4GB of RAM and 320GB hard drive. It is shiny and new. Hell the *video card* has 512mb of ram on it! It is useful, cool, and oh-so-very-sexy, if I do say so myself. Anyone should be happy and proud to have one. It has evolved. Now, of course, there's nothing WRONG with the person using a 19 year old computer---I mean some of my best friend's and all that. But really, my first machine could run one program at a time. If I was using Word Perfect, I couldn't play Sim City. My MBP has, as I write this, 15 programs running including iTunes with a 40GB music library. I still have another gig and a half to spare and I have not, in the nearly two years I've had it, managed to get my available memory down below a GB and trust me I have tried! Modern, sleek, useful.

It's sort of like that. Lesbians are 486/SX's, post-lesbians are Macbook Pros.

</tongue>

Cheers
Aj

LMAO!!!
Now, does the Macbook Pro Lesbian eat p*ssy?
:jester:

[NJFemmie]

<tongue=in cheek>

My 18 month old Macbook Pro, on the other hand, has 4GB of RAM and 320GB hard drive. It is shiny and new. Hell the *video card* has 512mb of ram on it! It is useful, cool, and oh-so-very-sexy, if I do say so myself. Anyone should be happy and proud to have one. It has evolved. Now, of course, there's nothing WRONG with the person using a 19 year old computer---I mean some of my best friend's and all that. But really, my first machine could run one program at a time. If I was using Word Perfect, I couldn't play Sim City. My MBP has, as I write this, 15 programs running including iTunes with a 40GB music library. I still have another gig and a half to spare and I have not, in the nearly two years I've had it, managed to get my available memory down below a GB and trust me I have tried! Modern, sleek, useful.

It's sort of like that. Lesbians are 486/SX's, post-lesbians are Macbook Pros.

</tongue>

Cheers
Aj


Pardon the derail, but I think you used this analogy just to show off your computer.

pfftt. lol.

[dreadgeek]

Pardon the derail, but I think you used this analogy just to show off your computer.

pfftt. lol.

LOL! I DO love my MBP! It is the first time that I have bought *exactly* the computer I wanted and not "well, this is the best I could get but it's not really what I want". Of course, six months later Apple released the unibody MBP which is soooooooooo sexy but my wife would skin me alive if I even talked about buying another one! LOL

Cheers
Aj

[hippieflowergirl]

SNIP ===> On that note... I agree with Metro - there is no such thing as lesbian sex. Sex is sex. What happens behind closed doors doesn't categorize itself - we do the categorizing based on stereotypes, assumptions and misinformation.

thank you to both you and Metro for bringing up this point. this was what i was trying to say yesterday...that human beings are simply "sexual". even the celibate are sexual beings who then choose to do something else with the energy besides sexual expression.

the only reason i wondered if the concepts of "lesbian = female homosexual = a woman who has sex with women" is because that seems to limit the definition of a person to whomever they have sex with.

:hippie:

[hippieflowergirl]

I personally haven't seen anyone object to anyone else not identifying as a lesbian. Are we speaking different languages? WTF


this is such a good question. and i think the answer is both "yes and no". we're speaking exactly the same language. but our angst proves that the dictionary definition of words isnt the only way in which we understand words! you understand one thing and i understand another. it doesnt make either of us wrong, it simply means there's a learning curve to understanding one another's filters and perspectives with regard to language.

Cyclopea asked relevant questions and so did i. neither of us did the best job answering the other. i left the conversation feeling like i was being invalidated and definitely like the enemy. today, i still feel like the enemy. no one called me the enemy but it does not prevent me from feeling that way. i dont blame anyone for the way i feel. but that i was regarded as the enemy was made clear in more than one mind based on the PMs i've gotten. it wouldn surprise me to discover that those on the opposite side of the discussion feel invalidated as well.

one of the reasons people react so strongly is because they feel threatened. fortunately, here, we share the one thing that makes conversations like this possible: we all believe it's important is to remind one another that individual opinions dont necessarily mean that we think the other is wrong. it only means that we dont understand one another yet.

[dreadgeek]

As another trouble-maker on this thread, I wanted to explain why I think that the meanings of words matter. Now, because I'm going to use examples using race I want to make it absolutely clear that I do not think anyone on this thread is racist, has said anything racist, or would ever say anything racist. It is just that the examples I have at hand use race.

If words evolve and have no flexible meaning then it would require me to take a face value the following statement: "I'm not a racist. Some of my best friend's are black. I just don't know what you people are calling yourself this decade so I just use the n-word." Or, one my favorites..."I'm not a racist. I just think that there's the 'good blacks', like you, and the n-word blacks, like the rest of them". Now, does the disclaimer "I'm not a racist" mean that the person is not expressing racist sentiment? Does the word racist have a meaning that is commonly agreed upon and, more or less, fixed or is it fluid such that someone could make statements like the two above (both of which I have heard, in some variation, multiple times in my 42 years) and by merely invoking the phrase "I'm not a racist..." means that whatever racist might mean, it cannot mean them.

I live by the idea that racist (like other words) have a more-or-less fixed meaning and that merely saying "I'm not a racist but..." does not confer some magical, water-to-wine fairy dust on the words that immediately follow such that no matter how racist they might SOUND they are not, actually, racist because the person has just proclaimed that they are not racist.

I use this as an example and I'll admit it is an extreme, in your face, example because I want to make it clear WHY I think that language matters in the way that I do.

I am perfectly willing to admit that my view may be hopelessly antiquarian and, if I dare say so, 20th century. It probably is. I am a product of my time.

Cheers
Aj

well hi.

sorry it took me so long to get back into the swing of the discussion. i'm not avoiding. some last minute research kept me busy until now.

since i seem to be the trouble-starter this week i'd like to begin with an apology to anyone i've offended with my opinions and my lack of understanding, whether real or perceived.

for my real lack of understanding, i beg patience. i am not unwilling to be wrong, to admit wrongness, to be taught, to learn and to grow. i welcome the opportunity.

for my perceived lack of understanding, i beg tolerance. if i am not being clear it is because i do not know i am being unclear, not because i am obtuse or because i simply refuse to be clear. we use language differently, even if the language is the same one. we use it differently because we are different from one another, even if we are all human. we have different filters, different experiences, different minds and philosophies, and different abilities with regard to critical thinking. i will be the first to admit that i have noticed some cognitive challenges in the last year, mostly having to do with short term memory and with some long term recall. neither of those things hamper my feeling, nor do they hamper my desire to participate positively in conversation, even difficult conversation, and to listen and learn and contribute and be heard.

i'd like to clear up any misunderstanding my posts may have created for anyone by saying the following:

1) i have absolutely no issue with the word "lesbian". i have no issue with any word of which i can think. because language and semiotics and marginalization make up the bulk of my work, i find it difficult to take offense with words, symbolism or the life experiences of others, period.

2) i do not identify my self, my life, my core, my being or my experiences as being a "lesbian" self, life, core, being or experiences. if others do, then they do. i dont have any feelings about the identifying words of others except to acknowledge and respect them and to use those words as required by the people who adopt them. i feel nothing but respect for the experiences of others. i have no need or desire (overt or hidden) to feel otherwise.

3) i have no issue with a dictionary definition of any word. limitations in print demand that many definitions be curtailed. dictionaries change every year. words are added and eliminated. there are dictionaries for "archaic" language and urban dictionaries and culturally relevant dictionaries and so on ad nauseum. none of them are "wrong" or "right" so much as they just "are". they account for the averaging of a particular language as well as a collective human understanding of concepts and ideas. they do not, however, encompass all that "is". there exists too much of everything for that.

4) if one person feels complete and satisfied with the definition of the word "Dog" as one that encompasses all domestic canines, i am not offended. if another person feels the same definition is limiting of specifics and variation and nuances and so on, i am not offended. if someone does not feel the word "Dog" encompasses all that some dogs are, i am not offended. i understand that my analogy is silly...but it serves my point somewhat. if a person says X is the word i use to identify myself with then i too refer to them as X. if someone says i do not use the word X...i use the word Y...then i also use the word Y to refer to them. my opinion and my language do not matter. Y is the word i use, out of respect primarily. my understanding expands to encompass the word Y as something new in my paradigm. that is evolution on the individual level. many individuals, all expanding their paradigm, leads to evolution on a more global level. it is critical thinking and philosophical growth at its best.

5) i am neither a "lesbian" by the dictionary definition nor by a personal one. i do not partner with people who identify themselves as women. i partner with transguys and/or male ID'd butches. the words i use are not "gay", "lesbian", or "homosexual" because i do not feel they are right for me. i do not have a single solitary issue with any of those words or anyone who uses them to define themselves. they are simply not my words. i do not speak for anyone except myself unless i am relating the stories and experiences i've been privy to and am free to relate and then, i am not doing so to represent anyone, i am simply relating a story. i do not speak FOR anyone except myself. any belief to the contrary is mistaken.

6) if someone tells me they are X...because they've been told they are X or the dictionary defines them as X...i worry, but i accept their decision. if the same person tells me they are X...because they feel X and they know they are X then i accept them as X and do not worry. i expect the same in return. as an example, if a person tells me they are a butch, female identified lesbian then i go forward using those words for that friend. if someone tells me they are a male identified butch, a genderqueer person, a lesbian, a transguy, a man, intersexed or that they use specific pronouns (hy, hir, ze, she, he and so on) i assimilate those words for that friend. it is not confusing to me and it does not bother me. i wouldnt presume to be bothered by the words anyone else uses for themselves.

7) i expect to be treated with the same consideration i extend. when i am not, i remove myself from the situation. if i am considered unacceptable it does not bother me. i am comfortable being unacceptable. moreso than i would be conforming to an identity that is not mine.

i am a queer transsensual femme. as with all people, my understanding of myself continues to evolve as my mind evolves in its role as part of cultural and global evolution. when someone calls me a lesbian i am going to engage in conversation with them and give them different words for me. i am going to do that because i respect myself and because i respect them enough to share myself with them on a personal level. i grew up in a world where lesbian was the ONLY word to use. as the world and my understanding changed i realized i was using a word that did not belong to me. it is not only out of respect for myself that i now use different words, but because i see some of the nuances of words that makes me feel as though i am being moe respectful of others when i DONT use the word for myself. that may be an odd-Kathlene-only phenomenon, but it is how i feel nonetheless.

words dont offend me. they are tools. mistakes dont offend me. they are also tools. intent and intention are the things that can carry the weight of offense in my world. regardless of my feelings, in the moment or long term, i also choose to believe that things are not solely as i see them...because it is impossible for me to see everything. i will be honest about my own feelings. that's the point of this long-winded and slightly pedantic post. in the same long breath, i refuse to presume that anyone here has either intent or intention to harm/offend/marginalize me.

thanx for playing.


:hippie:

~ ~ ~ ~

[hippieflowergirl]

LMAO!!!
Now, does the Macbook Pro Lesbian eat p*ssy?
:jester:


gives a whole new meaning to the concept of being "computer literate"!


:cracked:

[NJFemmie]

Originally Posted by Cyclopea http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?p=25072#post25072)
LMAO!!!
Now, does the Macbook Pro Lesbian eat p*ssy?
:jester:


gives a whole new meaning to the concept of being "computer literate"!


:cracked:

The way I see it, I would opt for the 486 - the Mac might be "too fast" for it's own good. ;)

[hippieflowergirl]

As another trouble-maker on this thread, I wanted to explain why I think that the meanings of words matter. Now, because I'm going to use examples using race I want to make it absolutely clear that I do not think anyone on this thread is racist, has said anything racist, or would ever say anything racist. It is just that the examples I have at hand use race.

If words evolve and have no flexible meaning then it would require me to take a face value the following statement: "I'm not a racist. Some of my best friend's are black. I just don't know what you people are calling yourself this decade so I just use the n-word." Or, one my favorites..."I'm not a racist. I just think that there's the 'good blacks', like you, and the n-word blacks, like the rest of them". Now, does the disclaimer "I'm not a racist" mean that the person is not expressing racist sentiment? Does the word racist have a meaning that is commonly agreed upon and, more or less, fixed or is it fluid such that someone could make statements like the two above (both of which I have heard, in some variation, multiple times in my 42 years) and by merely invoking the phrase "I'm not a racist..." means that whatever racist might mean, it cannot mean them.

I live by the idea that racist (like other words) have a more-or-less fixed meaning and that merely saying "I'm not a racist but..." does not confer some magical, water-to-wine fairy dust on the words that immediately follow such that no matter how racist they might SOUND they are not, actually, racist because the person has just proclaimed that they are not racist.

I use this as an example and I'll admit it is an extreme, in your face, example because I want to make it clear WHY I think that language matters in the way that I do.

I am perfectly willing to admit that my view may be hopelessly antiquarian and, if I dare say so, 20th century. It probably is. I am a product of my time.

Cheers
Aj


i agree. language does matter. it simply has huge variation in its meaning (which we're proving right now). this isnt a discussion about the meaning of the word "lesbian" anymore. it's a discussion about the ways in which we can each see a word or a sentence or an idea as meaning something very different than it was intended.

i do not dislike the word lesbian. i dont dislike lesbians. i dont dislike female identified lesbians. and yet, that's how i came across to some people. i wanted to discuss the obvious (to me only) expansion of language that happens to some people when they exit one definition and enter another and so i joined the conversation. i expressed an opinion based on a common idea for many BFP members. i didnt do it in a way that was clear. it also, as has been stated, wasnt asked for or invited. but...sigh...i did it.

my example is less obvious than your very good one: i dont use the word lesbian to describe myself and then require that my attraction to and/or behavior with someone who identifies themselves as a straight man be included in the definition of the word.

clear as muddy muddy mud?

[dreadgeek]

LMAO!!!
Now, does the Macbook Pro Lesbian eat p*ssy?
:jester:

If you give me week or so, I'm sure I can write an AppleScript so that you can use it as a remote control for your favorite vibrator. LOL

Cheers
Aj

[dreadgeek]

i agree. language does matter. it simply has huge variation in its meaning (which we're proving right now). this isnt a discussion about the meaning of the word "lesbian" anymore. it's a discussion about the ways in which we can each see a word or a sentence or an idea as meaning something very different than it was intended.

i do not dislike the word lesbian. i dont dislike lesbians. i dont dislike female identified lesbians. and yet, that's how i came across to some people. i wanted to discuss the obvious (to me only) expansion of language that happens to some people when they exit one definition and enter another and so i joined the conversation. i expressed an opinion based on a common idea for many BFP members. i didnt do it in a way that was clear. it also, as has been stated, wasnt asked for or invited. but...sigh...i did it.

my example is less obvious than your very good one: i dont use the word lesbian to describe myself and then require that my attraction to and/or behavior with someone who identifies themselves as a straight man be included in the definition of the word.

clear as muddy muddy mud?

Actually, that is very clear and a point I would absolutely agree with. If you are with someone who identifies themselves as a straight man (whatever their chromosomal pattern is) then I would wholeheartedly agree that to say that this met the definition of 'lesbian' would be to stretch the word beyond recognition. I can certainly see how one would NOT use the term 'lesbian' in that case. My wife doesn't use the term 'lesbian' because she identifies as a bisexual-dyke (which, as I understand it to mean) that she is affectionately attracted to women but if I were to disappear out of her life and it was a lonely Saturday night and she needed a little 'sumthin-sumthin' and the right guy was around she would have sex with him. But if she were looking for another serious relationship it would be with another butch woman (or possibly transman).

So that makes perfect sense to me. I'm curious, would you then say that you are homosexual or bisexual?

And thank you for your patience, semiotics is completely out of my academic venue (which is computational biology/biomedical informatics) so I may be completely oversimplifying language.

Cheers
Aj

[hippieflowergirl]

Actually, that is very clear and a point I would absolutely agree with. If you are with someone who identifies themselves as a straight man (whatever their chromosomal pattern is) then I would wholeheartedly agree that to say that this met the definition of 'lesbian' would be to stretch the word beyond recognition. I can certainly see how one would NOT use the term 'lesbian' in that case. My wife doesn't use the term 'lesbian' because she identifies as a bisexual-dyke (which, as I understand it to mean) that she is affectionately attracted to women but if I were to disappear out of her life and it was a lonely Saturday night and she needed a little 'sumthin-sumthin' and the right guy was around she would have sex with him. But if she were looking for another serious relationship it would be with another butch woman (or possibly transman).

So that makes perfect sense to me. I'm curious, would you then say that you are homosexual or bisexual?

And thank you for your patience, semiotics is completely out of my academic venue (which is computational biology/biomedical informatics) so I may be completely oversimplifying language.

Cheers
Aj



THANKYOU!!!

i've been holding my breath! i'm really tiptoeing around right now feeling like a bad academic and a bad femme and a bad person and boo-hoo-hoo-poor Kathlene-boo-hoo-hoo (PLEASE read that last bit as sarcastic!)

[hippieflowergirl]

from last year's Urban Dictionary

lesbian

n.) A gender identity in which an individual defines themselves as female (woman) and actively embodies intellectual, emotional, romantic and sexual energies geared toward another person who also defines themselves as female (woman).

transgendered

n.) A gender identity in which an individual defines his/her self by a sex and/or gender other than the physical determination given at birth. Transgendered identity presentation does not presume a/any specific sexual orientation/identity (homo, hetero, pan or asexual -- lesbian, gay, butch, femme, queer, etc.)

femme:

n.) Gender identity in which an individual (female, male or other) has an awareness of cultural standards of femininity and actively embodies a feminine appearance, role, or archetype, usually--but not always--associated with a gay or queer sexual identity/sexuality; more accentuated and intentional than a straight female gender identity or gender presentation and distinctly challenges standards of femininity through purposeful transgression against binary gender paradigms.

n.) Person (male, female or other) who identifies and/or presents an overtly feminine or feminine acting gender identity and sometimes--but not necessarily-- embodies intellectual, emotional, romantic and sexual energies geared toward an opposite gender presentation. Occasionally used to denote an individual, or the submissive role in a relationship.

v.) To actively embody a feminine identity or gender presentation.

adj.) Feminine in a quasi-traditional and/or non-traditional way--or referring to something/one (male or non-female) that/whom is related to or embodies a conscious femininity.

butch:

n.) Gender identity in which someone (female, male or other) has an awareness of cultural standards of masculinity and actively embodies a masculine appearance, role, or archetype, usually--but not always--associated with a gay or queer sexual identity/sexuality; more accentuated and intentional than straight male gender identity or gender presentation and distinctly challenges standards of masculinity through purposeful transgression against binary gender paradigms.

n.) Person (male, female or other) who identifies and/or presents an overtly masculine or masculine-acting gender identity and sometimes--but not necessarily-- embodies intellectual, emotional, romantic, and sexual energies geared toward an opposite gender presentation. Occasionally used to denote an individual, or the dominant role in a relationship.

v.) To actively embody a butch identity or gender presentation.

adj.) Masculine in a quasi-traditional and/or non-traditional way--or referring to something/one (female or non-male) that/whom is related to or embodies a conscious masculinity.

[Gemme]

Isn't it interesting how things evolve? I'll take my part of the trouble-making pie and sit down with it for a while.

For me, this conversation began because ONE LINE out of a fairly long post I made stood out to Cyclopea. As time went on, I realized I had written it backwards, so I definitely understood some of the confusion as to what I was saying. I take responsibility for not wording my thoughts exactly as I meant them.

I would never invalidate another's identity or self-image knowingly or willingly, although...through the night...I felt just that way from Cyclopea and AJ. Arwen and hippie have said the same thing at varying points. Like both of them, I had to step away from this thread. I needed to try to regain some perspective and get in touch with myself and find out what kind of place I was coming from exactly.

Now, I come back in, refreshed and hopeful and I see that hippie (Kathlene, if I may?) has done a wonderful job bridging the differences. If you aren't in PR or politics, you SHOULD be, girl! :)

I am honestly very sorry for those that felt, along the way, my point changed from "you are a lesbian and it works for you and that is GOOD but I am not a lesbian, but am homosexual by definition, so all homosexuals are NOT lesbians" to "all lesbians are bad because I don't identify that way". I never meant to say that, so if someone could pinpoint the specific post(s) where I actually said that, I'd be grateful.

Please let it be clear that I am NOT invalidating the fact that feelings were hurt. I know mine were and I apologize for my part in hurting others. What I am saying, and I ask that anyone who may respond to this post read this next part VERY CAREFULLY as I am doing my best to make myself as clear as I can, is that while I agree that all lesbians are homosexuals, not all homosexuals are lesbians. That's it. That is bluntly EXACTLY what I said. Never once did I attempt to make someone justify their identity nor did I invalidate it, although I felt like both were happening to me. Never did I say anything derogatory about lesbians or Queers or Martians or anyone else. I just made every attempt I could to help those who misinterpreted what I said or my tone. Along the way, Corkey and hippie and NAAG got what I was saying with some clarification and I appreciated that. Kosmo was able to present what I was trying to say better than I did and I also appreciate that.

In the end, everyone's filter is different. Everyone has different sensitivities. Everyone has different personal definitions (whether they coincide with Mirriam-Webster's definitions or not). Our past experiences color our present and future interactions. I acknowledge this and think that I've learned something in reading the past couple of pages of dialogue that will help me in communicating with people here. For that, I am very thankful.

Everyone wants to be HEARD though and that's why I felt it necessary for me to come back in here. Hopefully, it doesn't stir the pot or cause anymore rabblerousing. Like I said earlier, hippie's done a great job of smoothing the ruffled feathers and I don't want to take away from the wonderful posts and progress she's made. I just felt that my point had been twisted and turned into something it was never meant to be. And that is something I could not let happen. In this environment, we ARE our words. And I will not be changed into something I am not.

[QueenofQueens]

I am interested to hear from anyone who identifies as a Lesbian who also finds the statement offensive. So Thank You for explaining to me how it makes you feel as well.

Yes, QueenofQueens, I completely understand when a person says that Lesbianism is disgusting, sick and perverted that this would be hurtful. The intent is derogatory, judgmental and prejudice. Although, I don't identify as a Lesbian this would be hurtful to me as well because there are many I love that do identify as a Lesbian and I have also identified as a Lesbian myself. But even if I didn't know a Lesbian or had never been one, it would still be hurtful to me to watch/hear/see a person put someone else down in this manner and not be accepting of another person's differences. And not be concerned with how their words would make someone else feel. I am not one to sit by and watch. I would have alot to say to anyone who would treat another person that way.

When I'm called a Lesbian it feels unnatural. It doesn't feel right. It feels weird. It's the same to me as being called a girl. Not because either are disgusting to me, but because I do not relate to being either one.

I would have asked Turasultana's intent before I assumed she was stating her feelings in a derogatory way.

If Turasultana feels similar to the way I do, it would be unfair for someone to automatically assume that because I don't like being called a Lesbian, that I find being one is disgusting or a negative.

When I read what Turasultana wrote, I could relate. As I'm sure there are others who do as well. And I'm sure there are also others who would take offense.

Where is the line drawn? Are we not allowed to say that being called a Lesbian makes us feel a negative emotion __________ (fill in the blank)?

QueenofQueens, do you feel that Turasultana was coming from a derogatory place, as if to call Lesbians disgusting?

Turasultana, maybe you could explain to use more of why you feel the way you do?

This is all so very interesting to me. The division and misunderstandings. I do believe it is very good for us to talk about it and to understand where we are all coming from. There is more I want to say...but my brain is getting very very tired and it's way past my bedtime and I can't write or think much more...LoL.

But I would like to continue this discussion tomorrow and really understand better.

Blue, I've been meaning to respond to this and only had the time to do so now.
I want to make my opinion and intentions crystal clear with regard to my previous post in this thread because I feel that you largely missed the point of what I said. I will enumerate my points to avoid further confusion and because I realize that a lot of ground has been covered in this thread.

1. I never believed that Tura was being intentionally hurtful.
2. People are capable of being insulting or hurtful without intending to do so, sometimes folks just act callously or thoughtlessly and need to be called on it.
3. When people feel the need to define themselves in negative terms, i.e. "I'm not lesbian, I'm not pro choice, I'm not a butch" and do so adamantly among people who do identify in those ways, the implication in their words can easily be read as pejorative by those who ARE what they decry they are NOT.


I realize some people have a lot of hurt attached to the word "lesbian" because of painful, personal experiences. Many, MANY of us as butches and femmes were wholesale rejected by the larger lesbian community or partners we cared for, simply because of how we interpret our queerness, myself included.

Some of us have chosen to embrace the identity of lesbian as an act of sheer defiance and as an open acknowledgment of our homosexuality. Some of us, instead, have chosen to reject the word. But I sincerely wonder, as a member of the former group, if you have chosen to reject the word "lesbian", and the identity, and are defining in negative terms, then what as a female bodied homosexual do you embrace in its stead? Have you truly made peace with the fact that you are homosexual? Are you okay with everything that being a female bodied person in relationship with another female bodied person manifests, entails and means? If not, then why not? These are hypothetical questions that I ponder and not directed toward any individual here.

For those who reject the identity "lesbian", I would ask for you all to think about how it would feel if you heard, for example, someone proclaiming, "I am NOT transensual, it squicks me out", or stone, or nesbian (not equating these words, just using them as examples), or whatever words you choose to embrace, simply in order to define yourselves. To me, it feels like coming out as a femme to the larger glbt community all fucking over again. I'm sick to death of having to defend and explain being a lesbian, and what that looks like presented by me, to other homosexuals especially.

If someone were to mistakenly presume that all b/f folks are transensual, for example, I (who am not transensual) do not feel the need to defend myself by breaking my id down in a way that would hurt those who are transensual. Isn't it hard enough for people to just move through the world as queer without hearing that their identities and sexual proclivities make other members of their community nauseous? That sort of judgment, couched in the safe haven of "personal opinion" feels secretly fascistic to me. Again, I want to know, why must anyone define themselves in negative terms?

Regardless of our choices regarding our identities, I think it behooves every single one of us to examine why we reject or embrace certain sexual descriptors, and sexual proclivities, to ensure that there is not the least trace of internalized homophobia or misogyny leading the way. Yes, I get that diversity is grand, and that all our triggers aren't tripped the same, and I say vive' le difference if it's a genuine expression of who you are. If not, taking a moment to face a truth that might make you uncomfortable, but which will ultimately help liberate your authentic self, is crucial to our evolution, individually and as a group. Examining our own potential homophobia and misogyny is as important an act of introspection as any regarding privilege or racism, especially within a community which is predominately queer and female bodied.

[Gemme]

QoQ, I value your thoughts very much and, while I'm sure Blue will get back with you (since it was directed towards Blue), I'd like to address a couple of things, if you don't mind.


3. When people feel the need to define themselves in negative terms, i.e. "I'm not lesbian, I'm not pro choice, I'm not a butch" and do so adamantly among people who do identify in those ways, the implication in their words can easily be read as pejorative by those who ARE what they decry they are NOT.

Why is someone saying they are not something suddenly derogatory? I am not Native American but that does not mean that I am being derogatory towards those who are by saying that I am simply not. When did 'not' become a dirty word? If someone says that they are not Queer, I do not take offense to that. They are defining their own personal self; something I cannot do. I cannot tell them they are right or wrong. That's their determination to make, yes?

Maybe I am missing something but I just don't see it.

Some of us have chosen to embrace the identity of lesbian as an act of sheer defiance and as an open acknowledgment of our homosexuality. Some of us, instead, have chosen to reject the word. But I sincerely wonder, as a member of the former group, if you have chosen to reject the word "lesbian", and the identity, and are defining in negative terms, then what as a female bodied homosexual do you embrace in its stead? Have you truly made peace with the fact that you are homosexual? Are you okay with everything that being a female bodied person in relationship with another female bodied person manifests, entails and means? If not, then why not? These are hypothetical questions that I ponder and not directed toward any individual here.

I like the way you've worded these questions. It's easier to fit my thoughts around. I have some questions that have come from yours.

If I don't choose to embrace something, does that automatically mean I am rejecting it? Really? Have we and this world been reduced to black and white thinking? It must be this or that, with no inbetween or thinking outside of the box?

And does a female bodied person partnering with a female bodied but MALE or MASCULINE brained partner still fall under these parameters?

Does partnering with someone who is not female brained mean that I am somehow uneasy with homosexuality within myself? Does that mean that, if I were to identify as a lesbian, that I could ONLY partner with female bodied and female brained partners?

Regardless of our choices regarding our identities, I think it behooves every single one of us to examine why we reject or embrace certain sexual descriptors, and sexual proclivities, to ensure that there is not the least trace of internalized homophobia or misogyny leading the way. This is as important an act of introspection as any regarding privilege or racism, especially within a community which is predominately queer and female bodied.

Again, why must it be embrace or reject? Why can't something simply not apply to us?

Thanks for your thoughtful questions. My questions in response to yours are not in anger or frustration but I am genuinely confused.

[QueenofQueens]

QoQ, I value your thoughts very much and, while I'm sure Blue will get back with you (since it was directed towards Blue), I'd like to address a couple of things, if you don't mind.
Of course not Gemme. :)
My answers below in my beloved Courier.


Why is someone saying they are not something suddenly derogatory? I am not Native American but that does not mean that I am being derogatory towards those who are by saying that I am simply not. When did 'not' become a dirty word? If someone says that they are not Queer, I do not take offense to that. They are defining their own personal self; something I cannot do. I cannot tell them they are right or wrong. That's their determination to make, yes?
Maybe I am missing something but I just don't see it


The answer here lies within the question you asked. You are not Native American, nor am I, but would you at any time feel the need to qualify your identity as an American citizen by exclaiming that fact? Furthermore, do you make it a habit to describe yourself to people based upon all the things you aren't?
Normally, I'll say something like "I'm a Femme dyke" or "I'm gay" or "I'm Cuban", in order to give folks an idea about my identity if the subject comes up (which it does rarely and briefly offline). I never say "I'm not a gay man" or "I'm not a transensual femme" or "I'm Caribbean, but I'm certainly not Puerto Rican". To me, this seems rather nihilistic and divisive.

Not, isn't a dirty word, in and of itself. Everyone certainly has the right to make distinctions when false assumptions are made about who they are. The offense for me lies when that distinction is made with pejorative or rude language, or when it is expressed without sensitivity for those present.
I wouldn't say "I am NOT heterosexual because to me it squicks me out" around my straight friends as if being hetero was anathema. To me, it just isn't a kind way of expressing who I am.



I like the way you've worded these questions. It's easier to fit my thoughts around. I have some questions that have come from yours.

If I don't choose to embrace something, does that automatically mean I am rejecting it? Really? Have we and this world been reduced to black and white thinking? It must be this or that, with no in between or thinking outside of the box?

To your first question the answer is absolutely yes. If you make a statement denying that you are lesbian, then you are by definition rejecting that identity for yourself. As to your second question, I'm not a proponent of polarized thought at all. To me fluidity means just that, allowing oneself to embrace and travel among, many identities at once. Logically that allows little room for rejection. I have never said that a person couldn't be both lesbian and ____ and ____. But those of you who have rejected lesbian identity, seem to have assigned it a very narrow definition, and therefore, by shutting it out from the realm of possibility, in my opinion, are much nearer to black and white thinking than you believe yourself to be.
True fluidity needs to neither embrace nor reject any identity because it is capable of mercurial movement among all or none of them AND contrary to popular belief, fluidity and taxonomy can coexist peacefully.

And does a female bodied person partnering with a female bodied but MALE or MASCULINE brained partner still fall under these parameters?

Does partnering with someone who is not female brained mean that I am somehow uneasy with homosexuality within myself? Does that mean that, if I were to identify as a lesbian, that I could ONLY partner with female bodied and female brained partners?

These are questions that only you can answer for yourself. I could never, nor would I ever want to, make those determinations for someone.
If you're implying that my questions were somehow a veiled accusation, or an implication of having to choose "one or the other", I can assure you that they were not.
I can tell you that I fully embrace being a homosexual woman with all that entails. Because of that, I embrace all attendant terminology, as an act of both pride and defiance. When I was with a man, I still thought of myself as a dyke, largely because that is my authentic self. To me, identity is not determined by who we partner with, nor was I trying to imply that it is for those who do not claim "lesbian".
I asked several questions in this paragraph, some related to how we express our sexuality with another person, and some related to our own personal journeys to self actualization. For me, embracing the fact that I'm a lesbian, was a part of that journey. I just wonder how those who claim female homosexuality, while pairing that claim with the contradiction of rejecting the term lesbian, achieve peace. I was really being sincere, I'm trying to figure out how y'all come to terms with your homosexuality, since our paths to it are obviously very different.

Again, why must it be embrace or reject? Why can't something simply not apply to us?

We absolutely can proceed from a place of neutrality with regard to what doesn't apply to us. However, what I have witnessed here and elsewhere with regard to this admittedly sensitive topic, hardly passes as neutral from where I stand. If you (the general you) have no attachment to the lesbian id, then why qualify your identity by denying it?

Thanks for your thoughtful questions. My questions in response to yours are not in anger or frustration but I am genuinely confused.

Thank you too for engaging with me in a very thoughtful manner. I love and appreciate these types of discussions. For reals. :)

Anyway, I hope this clears up some of your confusion 'cause I'm kinda tired an' shit.

ETA: If one is pan- or omnisexual, that terminology is inclusive of all forms of hetero and homo sexuality. If one embraces pan- or omnisexuality as their identity, there is no logical reason to reject ANY sexual identity.

[QueenofQueens]

No one is out to make Lesbian extinct...but she sure is changing and evolving!

Trust me, no one else's identity could ever be a threat to mine.
It's rudeness that I take umbrage at.

So, while we're on the subject, I find this particular statement extremely rude and patronizing.

How on earth have you concluded that rejecting lesbian identity is an earmark of "change" and "evolution" for lesbians? Guess what, lesbians still exist as (Shock! Horror!) lesbians.

What you said intones that those who remain lesbian id'ed are not evolved. It implies that the logical evolution of lesbian identity is... a rejection of lesbian identity (wtf?).

I find what you said to be incredibly arrogant, dismissive and mythologizing of many of us, especially in light of the fact that you are male id'ed and, I'm assuming, non lesbian. Is this how you have reconciled your journey to self actualization as male? What I mean is, I'm assuming at some point you thought you were a dyke/lesbian (if not, please forgive the assumption), and along the way, fully embraced the fact that you were actually male. So, do you identify your journey as a natural course of "lesbian evolution", and for your femme counterparts, a full on rejection of the identity, because that's how it played out for you? I'm really curious why you're framing it this way.

If you don't get why I find what you said appallingly condescending, let me put it to you this way; It's something akin to a guy telling a "bunch of hysterical bitches to just calm down" as he laughs at their outrage. You have no right to make such a pronouncement about me, or other lesbians. Now, if you actually id as a male lesbian, then I'd be really curious to hear your take on your own personal evolution. If you aren't, Id prefer that you refrain from making determinations about mine and that of other lesbians.

Your beliefs DO NOT determine the evolutionary process, no ones do, not mine, not anyone's. Only nature can put her pimp stick down on that.

[dreadgeek]

The answer here lies within the question you asked. You are not Native American, nor am I, but would you at any time feel the need to qualify your identity as an American citizen by exclaiming that fact? Furthermore, do you make it a habit to describe yourself to people based upon all the things you aren't?
Normally, I'll say something like "I'm a Femme dyke" or "I'm gay" or "I'm Cuban", in order to give folks an idea about my identity if the subject comes up (which it does rarely and briefly offline). I never say "I'm not a gay man" or "I'm not a transensual femme" or "I'm Caribbean, but I'm certainly not Puerto Rican". To me, this seems rather nihilistic and divisive.

Not, isn't a dirty word, in and of itself. Everyone certainly has the right to make distinctions when false assumptions are made about who they are. The offense for me lies when that distinction is made with pejorative or rude language, or when it is expressed without sensitivity for those present.
I wouldn't say "I am NOT heterosexual because to me it squicks me out" around my straight friends as if being hetero was anathema. To me, it just isn't a kind way of expressing who I am.

Thank you QoQ! You put in words what I've been trying to express.

I had thought, yesterday, about posting something I manifestly don't believe just as an example: 'I'm not trans. I would never want anyone to mistake me for trans. I would be upset if someone said I was trans!" Now, if I said that wouldn't it sound like I was saying "trans is something I want as far away from me as possible". You can almost hear the "get it off me" even in this venue.

My beautiful wife, Belly, is bisexual. When I first came out, I identified as bisexual (until my *second* lesbian relationship because at that point I realized that unless something VERY interesting happened, I was never going to have another heterosexual relationship) but I would not say "I'm not bi! I wouldn't want someone to mistake me for bi because that just squicks me out." Firstly, such a statement would, in fact, be an insult to the woman I love and it would *hurt* her. I know this because I have seen the hurt in her eyes when lesbians make very unkind comments about bisexuals (who, it seems, are still considered acceptable whipping girls in the community). Secondly, my identity is not really defined by who I was but am no longer but by who I *am*.

Being a black woman, I don't define myself as a not-white woman. I define myself as a *black* woman. Being a geekgrrl, I don't define myself as a not-mainstream but as a geek. Being a butch, I don't define myself as a not-femme but as a butch. Being a lesbian I don't define myself as not-anymore-bisexual or a not-anymore-heterosexual but as a lesbian or, alternatively, a dyke.

You bring up an interesting point in your statement "I'm Cuban but I'm certainly not Puerto Rican". I have heard Caribbean blacks make a point of saying that they are NOT American blacks--as if that were not something a decent brown-skinned person would want to be. If I were to make a point of saying I'm not Jamaican, one would be somewhat justified in saying "hey, Aj, what's so wrong with Jamaicans that you're so emphatically NOT one". Now, I've had people ask me if I was from Jamaica (because, don't ya know, ALL black people with dreadlocks are from Jamaica) and I've corrected them by saying "no, I'm an American born in America". But that's correcting a misinterpretation. I've had people ask "what country are you from" and I'll tell them the same thing, I'm an American who was born here. Again, correcting a misinterpretation. I've even had people say "why don't you go back to Africa" and I've corrected them by pointing out that given the reality of the transatlantic slave trade, it's likely that my bloodline has been here longer than their bloodline since my bloodline HAD to have hit these shores by 1809 (when the slave trade across the Atlantic ended) while their bloodline could easily have showed up on Ellis Island in 1910. But, again, that's not saying "I'm not African" it's simply correcting historical ignorance.

There's a difference and I've been so caught up in the emotions of this topic (yes, Virginia, I DO have emotions! LOL) that I haven't been able to put it into something coherent until I read your post. So thank you.

Cheers
Aj

[BullDog]

How people identify is of course entirely up to them. No one need identify as a lesbian. We are not recruiting.

However, the narrow minded views of what a lesbian is or is capable of expressing in terms of her sexuality and identity that are quite often expressed in butch femme circles feels like internalized homophobia and anti-woman to me. A woman who is attracted to another woman - lesbian- or a woman having sex with another woman, just simply isn't enough- it's limited, less evolved, something people need to be clear that they are NOT. Whereas queer/genderqueer/masculine identified/male within a female body and those attracted to such people are the cutting edge, revolutionary, evolved genders.

By the way I am not sure why people use masculine identified to refer to themselves as not identifying as woman and/or female. Butches who identify with being female are masculine. Women can and are masculine as well. My masculine pronoun is She.

[Gemme]

The answer here lies within the question you asked. You are not Native American, nor am I, but would you at any time feel the need to qualify your identity as an American citizen by exclaiming that fact? Furthermore, do you make it a habit to describe yourself to people based upon all the things you aren't?

Normally, I'll say something like "I'm a Femme dyke" or "I'm gay" or "I'm Cuban", in order to give folks an idea about my identity if the subject comes up (which it does rarely and briefly offline). I never say "I'm not a gay man" or "I'm not a transensual femme" or "I'm Caribbean, but I'm certainly not Puerto Rican". To me, this seems rather nihilistic and divisive.

There have been times when I have said something along those lines or have heard someone say something along those lines. True, it's a rarity, but like most everything...it's been done.

Although, when I might say, "I am not _____ but yada yada yada" I am not attempting to claim my status as American, femme, etc. It's simply me addressing something that is connected for me. I find it difficult to see it as being divisive, but I can follow the road your thoughts are taking here. Perhaps the words themselves aren't divisive, but the connection itself that's being made is.

*shrug*

Voila! As I was beginning to respond to you, someone came into my lobby and provided me with a near perfect example of what I mean.

The guest I was talking with was telling me about his adopted son who was recently released from prison. While in prison this man made jewelry. Jewelry that resembled traditional Native American jewelry. In our conversation, my guest said, "Now, Joe's not Native American, but the jewelry he makes resembles that style." Would you consider that statement divisive?

To me, and granted I had the benefit of being in front of this gentleman and was able to see the pride shining from his eye (only one...the other's gone...but that's another story), but this is not divisive. To me, he's saying that his son does such high quality work in his jewelry making that it could be mistaken with that designed by Native Americans. That his replicas could be mistaken for their original pieces.

Not, isn't a dirty word, in and of itself. Everyone certainly has the right to make distinctions when false assumptions are made about who they are. The offense for me lies when that distinction is made with pejorative or rude language, or when it is expressed without sensitivity for those present.
I wouldn't say "I am NOT heterosexual because to me it squicks me out" around my straight friends as if being hetero was anathema. To me, it just isn't a kind way of expressing who I am.

I can understand the reflex that hearing/seeing that would cause. You are right; that's not a positive statement.

To your first question the answer is absolutely yes. If you make a statement denying that you are lesbian, then you are by definition rejecting that identity for yourself. As to your second question, I'm not a proponent of polarized thought at all. To me fluidity means just that, allowing oneself to embrace and travel among, many identities at once. Logically that allows little room for rejection. I have never said that a person couldn't be both lesbian and ____ and ____. But those of you who have rejected lesbian identity, seem to have assigned it a very narrow definition, and therefore, by shutting it out from the realm of possibility, in my opinion, are much nearer to black and white thinking than you believe yourself to be.

For myself, I don't have a definition for lesbian (except the one from the dictionary that's been regurgitated several times in here). As a non-lesbian (which I'm not fond of saying, as that seems like it makes everything lesbians versus everyone else and that's not how I see it, but I'll go with the flow for this thread), I have no right to define any lesbian's identity. BUT, I have no right to define anyone else's identity. Period.

I think the either/or thing is something we'll just have to agree to disagree on, but I see your thought processes more clearly now. :)

True fluidity needs to neither embrace nor reject any identity because it is capable of mercurial movement among all or none of them AND contrary to popular belief, fluidity and taxonomy can coexist peacefully.

These are questions that only you can answer for yourself. I could never, nor would I ever want to, make those determinations for someone.
If you're implying that my questions were somehow a veiled accusation, or an implication of having to choose "one or the other", I can assure you that they were not.

Nope, no accusations, although I do feel a bit like it's being turned into lesbians vs. non-lesbians, much like heterosexuals vs. homosexuals or butches and femmes vs. everyone else. There's so much division already, it seems unfortunate and unproductive to continue to spread the gap.

I can tell you that I fully embrace being a homosexual woman with all that entails. Because of that, I embrace all attendant terminology, as an act of both pride and defiance. When I was with a man, I still thought of myself as a dyke, largely because that is my authentic self. To me, identity is not determined by who we partner with, nor was I trying to imply that it is for those who do not claim "lesbian".

I asked several questions in this paragraph, some related to how we express our sexuality with another person, and some related to our own personal journeys to self actualization. For me, embracing the fact that I'm a lesbian, was a part of that journey. I just wonder how those who claim female homosexuality, while pairing that claim with the contradiction of rejecting the term lesbian, achieve peace. I was really being sincere, I'm trying to figure out how y'all come to terms with your homosexuality, since our paths to it are obviously very different.

My identity is like clothing. Some clothes feel better on me than others. Some are tight and restrictive and some are too loose and get caught on things all the time. I feel comfortable in wearing the term homosexual although it's not something I actively portray or seek. It just is. Lesbian feels like a pair of pants that just doesn't fit quite right. It doesn't mean they are defective pants; only that they do not fit my body and me.

We absolutely can proceed from a place of neutrality with regard to what doesn't apply to us. However, what I have witnessed here and elsewhere with regard to this admittedly sensitive topic, hardly passes as neutral from where I stand. If you (the general you) have no attachment to the lesbian id, then why qualify your identity by denying it?

I don't see being a non-lesbian as denying lesbianism or lesbians. I see it as knowing that that just doesn't work for me. Perhaps it's a personality thing? Because when I deny or reject something or someone, that thing or person KNOWS it. It would be more in your face. Here, for me, I just don't feel that lesbianism, as I know it, is for me.

Again, I shall agree to disagree with you. :)

Thank you too for engaging with me in a very thoughtful manner. I love and appreciate these types of discussions. For reals.

Anyway, I hope this clears up some of your confusion 'cause I'm kinda tired an' shit.

Actually, it did help. Thank you.

ETA: If one is pan- or omnisexual, that terminology is inclusive of all forms of hetero and homo sexuality. If one embraces pan- or omnisexuality as their identity, there is no logical reason to reject ANY sexual identity.

Oh, boy. So it's pan or omni-sexuals versus the rest of us now? *tongue in cheek*

Although.....flip your arguments, please. By claiming lesbian so strongly, are you (in general or those who feel this applies to them) DENYING every other form of sexuality and sexual expression? If so, why is this claim so different from those who say "I'm not lesbian"? I do understand about a post or two being worded hurtfully. Taking that out of the equation, aren't those proclaiming lesbian doing the exact thing that the non-lesbians are being accused of doing?

How people identify is of course entirely up to them. No one need identify as a lesbian. We are not recruiting.

.....

By the way I am not sure why people use masculine identified to refer to themselves as not identifying as woman and/or female. Butches who identify with being female are masculine. Women can and are masculine as well. My masculine pronoun is She.

I think you answered yourself by your first paragraph. It's not up to anyone to wonder WHY someone id's as they do. It's our job as a respectful human being to accept their self-identification for what it is: theirs.

Women can definitely be masculine. So can those who do not identify as women or connect with their female body. I think masculine is a connection between woman and man, separating them from each other but keeping them intertwined simultaneously.

[Blue_Daddy-O]

I have a whole lot to say and lots of responses to get back to so I will be posting as soon as time permits!

I do hope everyone is having a wonderful and peaceful holiday! Happy Holidays Everyone, even you Lesbians!! LOLOLOLOL!!!!

[hippieflowergirl]

well hi,

i've read and re-read the posts that make up this thread and i have a question for any/all who might care to answer publicly or privately.

is my original post, the reply i wrote to "Victoria" in which i said that i'm not a lesbian/do not identify as a lesbian offensive? did it sound like i was saying "OMG that's disgusting! i'm not one of those people?"

i ask because when i made the statement all i was thinking was "lesbian isnt the word i use for my self." i wasnt trying to dissociate from the word because i thought there was something wrong with the term itself or with anyone who is perfectly comfortable with it. i was responding to a post that seemed (to my necessarily limited understanding) to insist that we all use the word lesbian as a self-identifier. that was it.

it was suggested earlier this week that i am patronizing in my responses and that "no one asked for" my opinion. if i derailed the conversation and/or was not welcome to participate or if i was rude to any who posted or who has been reading the thread i apologize. my excuse for my original post was based on the name of the thread and the comments of a particular participant. as for being patronizing, i can only offer the lack of human connection between typist and reader(s) as an excuse. i do not wish or intend to patronize anyone.

it disturbs me that things i've said may have contributed to the deterioration of our discussion from the sharing of our varied experiences and different understandings of the world to the semi-denial of one another out of some perceived threat, one that i dont feel ever existed.

my responses are, in part, responsible for that (mistakenly) perceived threat if, when i wrote a reply to "Victoria" or to anyone else, i said anything that gave one of you the idea that i was claiming some kind of superiority simply because i do not use the word lesbian for myself. i've read my posts and do not see a "better than" mindset in my words. though i cant promise to see every flaw in my thinking i can, however, be certain of my intent and hope it comes across. when it doesnt i will clarify. that's all i was ever trying to do. i feel that many of the questions i posed remain unanswered but i hope that there will never be a question about my own feelings about any person, here or elsewhere, when it comes to this subject.

i am writing to both extend my well wishes to all for a very happy and rewarding new year as well as to unsubscribe from our discussion. i feel as though i've shaken a box of precious objects and in doing so, done damage that i would never have dknowingly or willingly done had i realized what gifts were inside. each one of you has presented me with something that i value by sharing your passion and your opinions and your selves in this venue. you are wealth that i take with me into my work and into my negotiation of the world every day. i am sincerely grateful for each of you.

Happy New Year

:snowysmiley: :antler: :snowman:



kathlene

[T D]

* Bingo * I believe respect, or lack of it, is mostly at the bottom these signals of "silencing". I have had things said to me in threads at that "other" site which I found very disheartening, rude, and silencing. Because someone says something that someone else doesn't think is relevant doesn't mean that it's not of value to others.

In reality everyone who has something to say has a right to say whatever it is. It seems that saying it, hearing it, responding to it with "mutual respect" seems to be the culprit for the most part. For the life of me I cannot figure out why this is such a difficult thing to grasp and do.

Going back to enjoying my Christmas day now ;)


Hey! As a community member, June likes your voice, even the sassy one! I am not going to go back through all the posts, but I sincerely hope no one intimated to you that "Your opinion wasn't asked for" in thread, because, that would piss me off just as much as if someone said it to me, or anyone else.

*I* don't think it's about holding back on opinions, *I* think it's about being willing to not just type, but listen as well. Some folks aren't able to do that. But, leaving the conversation isn't ALWAYS the answer. You seem to be willing to not just listen, but also be reflective -- What a gift!

It is worriesome to me as a community member that we (general we) appear to be fighting not only for space, but to be heard. For *me* this is not, nor should it ever be a pissing contest about "less than" or "more than". It seems like it should be more about mutual respect.

"I don't consider myself to be a Lesbian, and this is why"
"I am a masculine female who prefers female pronouns"
"I don't relate to any part of my female being, and this is why"
"I am a Lesbian, and this is what it means to me"

Or even, as the Thread topic indicates:

"I used to ID as Butch, but now I ID as this, and this is why"
"I am a Femme, but lately, I have been thinking about this..."
"I don't use any labels at all, I am just me and think they are unecessary and this is why"

I think, for me, my AHA! moment in this thread, or at least two significant ones came from dreadgeek and QueenofQueens posts using the example of:

"Ewwwwww, I am not a Lesbian and will never ID that way!" and then converting it to "OMG! I can't believe someone thought I was (whatever), I am so offended"

If you just look at that, even if no post actually SAID that, several of them inferred it, and I can totally see how it could be hurtful.

But YOU, HFG, DO NOT need to take the blame for the conversation going to Hell in a handbasket, because sometimes that happens, and then usually, it corrects itself, which I think is what is happening here now.

SO! Re-subscribe to this thread! Let your voice be heard! Be prepared to defend yourself if need be, or clarify.

:junesmiley:

[Blue_Daddy-O]

Hi, Blue Vegan --

Your post was reported and I have to say that upon review, I don't care for what appears to be your "tone". It appears to be sarcastic, rude and condescending.

If it is being misread, please take a moment to explain further here in the thread.

Your Friendly Neighborhood Lesbian Moderator,

June

Yes, I am being completely misread! No doubt, by those who don't know me or my sense of humor. I am very easy to read in person and have a big heart (and a playful heart too) and never, and I can say never, have the misreads and misunderstandings live that I have had in this thread. When I am finally able to completely respond to post in here, I think much of that will be cleared up. Granted those who feel just as strong about their opinions as I do mine, we may have to come to a place of agreeing to disagree. Even though we disagree with each other doesn't mean we can't share a laugh and still be friends. I can be a very serious person and still like to laugh and make others laugh, even when being serious, it cuts the tension. There is no room for hate, at least not in my world and I wish others felt the same way!

Anyone who knows me, knows how much I truly love ALL Lesbians, I have been dating a Lesbian Femme for the last 5 months, I have ex-girlfriends over the last 20 years who are Lesbians, many many friends who I love and adore who are Lesbians and I was a Lesbian for 10 years. Sometimes my Mom is a Lesbian Femme, when she's not idenifying as Bi-sexual, LoL. I don't always agree with Lesbians and their POVs, hence the discussion in this thread.

I am a very passionate and outspoken person, in person as well as online. I also take very seriously when others wrongly judge and mistreat others. It is very upsetting for me to watch and I will be responding to that when I return.

[Darth Denkay]

Bulldog,

You got me. I am one of those who has identified as masculine butch. In my mind what I was trying to get across is that - gender-wise - I don't identify as male or female, man or woman. I used masculine thinking it was a useful alternative to male or female, but as you point out, it really isn't. Female id'd butches identify as masculine, male id'd butches identify as masculine - I think it is probably safe to say that most, if not all butches identify with masculinity. So to call myself a masculine identified butch is basically redundant.

I guess I was trying to create a category so that I wouldn't have to identify myself by saying what I'm not (not man or woman) because as we know that can come across as stigmatizing those identities. I'm female in the biological sense, but I don't feel like I fit into either gender category. I guess this is one instance when, if I need to qualify myself in terms of gendered male and female, I'll have to go with the 'not' identifiers. So from now on, I will never call myself a masculine butch; masculine gives you no additional information beyond butch.

You rock Bulldog!



By the way I am not sure why people use masculine identified to refer to themselves as not identifying as woman and/or female. Butches who identify with being female are masculine. Women can and are masculine as well. My masculine pronoun is She.

[BullDog]

Thank you Wicket for taking my words in the spirit it was intended. You rock too.

I understand the difficulties of language- there aren't any words to really describe the space between male and female or man and woman. However, yes, most butches consider themselves to be masculine so I believe it is redundant to say masculine identified.

Also to use it in the sense to signify non-woman and/or non-female is quite problematic for me. Women can be and are masculine (not just butches), and for me it is very important not to lose sight of that- through language or anything else. It is also important for me that we continue to expand what woman can be- not of course to make others into women who don't feel that they are.

Quite frankly from my perspective, female identified is redundant too. I have just used it in the past so that I would not be mistaken for being male or male identified. Just Butch is fine for me, or for my own longtail version it's Stone Butch Lesbian. :D

[Darth Denkay]

Hey Bulldog,

I really appreciate this dialogue.

Originally I identified only as butch - for me that was my gender that existed outside of male and female. As I saw other butches identifying as male or female, I figured I should use a qualifier too - since neither male or female fit comfortably. But you know what - I am butch, plain and simple. I get that for some butches either male or female resonates - but for me I'm just a good old butch.

You also make a really good point about women in general being masculine, regardless of sexual orientation. My mom, who as far as I know is straight, looks pretty masculine. She doesn't attempt to embrace femininity or masculinity, she is just herself, which happens to be an individual with a nice blend of masculine and feminine. I bet if you asked her if she identified as masculine or feminine, she'd say neither. She expresses what I would call her innate masculinity without any conscious effort. If I had to identify her I'd say masculine straight female, (although, to be perfectly honest, I wouldn't be at all surprised if the 'straight' part isn't accurate).

Finally, I'm glad that you mention that female-identified butch is a little redundant too. At least as I understand the terms. Because I use male and female to signify physical sex, for me it feels unnecessary to point out that I am physically female. Now, I've never mentioned this before because I didn't want to come across as invalidating those who do embrace female-identified butch, but for me, butch is sufficient.

Thank you Wicket for taking my words in the spirit it was intended. You rock too.

I understand the difficulties of language- there aren't any words to really describe the space between male and female or man and woman. However, yes, most butches consider themselves to be masculine so I believe it is redundant to say masculine identified.

Also to use it in the sense to signify non-woman and/or non-female is quite problematic for me. Women can be and are masculine (not just butches), and for me it is very important not to lose sight of that- through language or anything else. It is also important for me that we continue to expand what woman can be- not of course to make others into women who don't feel that they are.

Quite frankly from my perspective, female identified is redundant too. I have just used it in the past so that I would not be mistaken for being male or male identified. Just Butch is fine for me, or for my own longtail version it's Stone Butch Lesbian. :D

[Dragonfly]

She uses the words butch and femme still. The community is not one she was exposed to as a young child. She uses terms for multiple genders, as the person IDed or not. The main thing I have been influenced by my daughter, son, and their circle of friends in several schools now. The youth are leaning a little away from terms like lesbian in exchange for queer. There are a large amount of bisexuals in this generation, in this area specifically.

I asked what she thought about it all and she said that her generation was raised differently. More open minded and less discrimination influenced them to be more accpeting, less needing to be classified as they identified their genders and sexual prefences. I see them struggle less and she answers isn't that what your generation wanted, to change things? They stereotype less than we adults "what" different sexual acts are prefered by whom.

SO I think Yeah... Isn't that what everyone was fighting for? A generation like the one I see blossoming in my rural area?

And they haven't tossed aside our ID's just because some of them think the word queer is good enough til you start dating and talk about the rest. TMI they say and ya know... I do like the word queer and how inclusive it feels to me personally.

[friskyfemme]

Amelia (Mel)

I loved that entire post and find it to be very true here in Portland as well. Younger folks do seem a lot more fluid in their identities and Gender presentations. I love that.

"Wasn't that what we were fighting for?"

Thank you for sharing that story.
I don't understand why people find it necessary to intellectualize their ids...I think some confusion at least for me (seems others too) is trying to understand: are people are coming from definition of sexual preference or personal id?

I have been around a lot of years. I id as 'stone femme'. This is my sexual preference. I am sexually attracted to stone butches...I am 'not' a no touch femme. I love 'no touch' butches. The guys that I date, love and partner with already understand where I am coming from.

Now...I am gonna age myself...when I came out...there were dykes and the woman who loved them and lesbians. The thing I realized early on ...I don't relate to 'female on female sex' - this is what lesbian means to me. So if I am talking, to a butch with a possible connection I will let them know 'I am not a lesbian'. The other thing that bugs me about the word lesbian is that it has been and is still used in negative context by hetros.

So maybe some of you consider me 'aniquated' but I have a clear ID and it works for me ;).

[Jett]

I'm cross posting this from "The Re-Definition of Modern Butch" thread because I think it ties in here too:

Again, I can't see butch or femme becoming completely outdated, but... I can see us perpetuating the stereotypes and policing to the point that butch/femme wouldn't feel like a comfortable fit to many peeps. The subtle (and often blatant) up-holding of unrealistic ideals of butch and femme permeate the spaces around B-F and can make the perimeter appear minuscule and confining.

The vein of "real/more/better/high/true - us/them" that pervades the forums isn't any more welcoming and imo, it steals the true lifes blood of diversity and pushes a narrow standard of B-F that even the vast majority reading this wouldn't come close to living up to.

I've seen many B-F people wander into B-F spaces looking and log out permanently, they don't feel what they read... they don't fit the stereotypes, (or perhaps they just don't get the mind numbing "what's the most un-butch/femme thing you do". - jokes. *insert sarcastic look*).

Again, my thoughts are NOT about changing butch/femme... but changing the way we think and opening our minds to the diverse culture we already are and acknowledging this to become more inclusive.

I think it's more significant then ever that we check ourselves, before the age of the internet we didn't have the ability to leave such cut definitions... what we're writing, allowing and most importantly leaving unchallenged IS becoming our recorded legacy.

*actually a lot more fun in real life*
Metro

[BullDog]

To each their own as far as how you id and who you are attracted to. However, I'm a stone butch. I am a lesbian. I don't understand where people get these narrow ideas about lesbians or lesbian sex. The fact that some heterosexuals may use the word lesbian in a derogatory way certainly doesn't stop me from being proud to be a lesbian.

[WILDCAT]

To each their own as far as how you id and who you are attracted to. However, I'm a stone butch. I am a lesbian. I don't understand where people get these narrow ideas about lesbians or lesbian sex. The fact that some heterosexuals may use the word lesbian in a derogatory way certainly doesn't stop me from being proud to be a lesbian.

That IS one example of what homophobia is about. Many queers have internalized homophobia. I had it myself when I was growing up, briefly! We were conditioned to feel badly about ourselves - for a multitude of reasons: "unnatural is it", for religious beliefs, etc... (Thus this gets projected from us onto others as well.) This is one thing that really is sad to me - the hate that comes from our own community, and the pain of denial. This is one of the MAIN reasons why I proudly use the term lesbian. I have nothing but pride for myself, my orientation, my lifestyle, my choice for loving another. I've come too far and have been through too much for me to change for someone/ANYONE else. Uh, uh. It ain't gonna happen. And any partner I may be with will feel just as strongly about this, in love and support - or we would be on two entirely different pages. And I don't believe as capable, thus... of fully being our best together then. (Just my wooden nickels worth there!)

And I respect that others need different types of compatibility and understanding, for what best compliments their "togetherness" and growth as a couple (or poly, etc...) I really do believe there is someone for everyone... and thank goodness we are not all "clones" of each other. And the times "change". Yes. They must. But, much will remain the same too. That's just the way it is. For we will keep what it is we want...

Otherwise, I'm fine with all self definitions and the new descriptors, ID's, whatever - in fact mine has changed throughout time as well. I would just hope that folks do things for the right reasons. And that respect is maintained... Some of this discussion has been truly mind boggling indeed, but it's showing what apparently needs to be shown. If you're saying something is yucky, for example - I'd check that out, and think before submitting. Love is a sensitive thing for many of us.

For the record, there is nothing MORE beautiful to ME than the scent and the taste of a woman. Hope that doesn't gross anyone out. How could I possibly apologize for that - on a site called Butch/Femme Planet? I realize it is a bit personal [for me] to post that, but I am proud of this as well. I think it is a very lovely part of my attraction and love for women. Actually, it makes me crazy insane filled with the most powerful sense of longing that I have EVER FELT! So, that is that. For me. And I'm sure a few others... possibly might be able to relate to this.

May we continue to move on in forward progress. So many thanks to some wonderful posts here and to the moderation.

Sincerely -
WILDCAT

*Who truly hopes everyone did have a wonderful F'n holiday. Honest. (f)

[Beau]

That IS one example of what homophobia is about. Many queers have internalized homophobia. I had it myself when I was growing up, briefly! We were conditioned to feel badly about ourselves - for a multitude of reasons: "unnatural is it", for religious beliefs, etc... (Thus this gets projected from us onto others as well.) This is one thing that really is sad to me - the hate that comes from our own community, and the pain of denial. This is one of the MAIN reasons why I proudly use the term lesbian. I have nothing but pride for myself, my orientation, my lifestyle, my choice for loving another. I've come too far and have been through too much for me to change for someone/ANYONE else. Uh, uh. It ain't gonna happen. And any partner I may be with will feel just as strongly about this, in love and support - or we would be on two entirely different pages. And I don't believe as capable, thus... of fully being our best together then. (Just my wooden nickels worth there!)

And I respect that others need different types of compatibility and understanding, for what best compliments their "togetherness" and growth as a couple (or poly, etc...) I really do believe there is someone for everyone... and thank goodness we are not all "clones" of each other. And the times "change". Yes. They must. But, much will remain the same too. That's just the way it is. For we will keep what it is we want...

Otherwise, I'm fine with all self definitions and the new descriptors, ID's, whatever - in fact mine has changed throughout time as well. I would just hope that folks do things for the right reasons. And that respect is maintained... Some of this discussion has been truly mind boggling indeed, but it's showing what apparently needs to be shown. If you're saying something is yucky, for example - I'd check that out, and think before submitting. Love is a sensitive thing for many of us.

For the record, there is nothing MORE beautiful to ME than the scent and the taste of a woman. Hope that doesn't gross anyone out. How could I possibly apologize for that - on a site called Butch/Femme Planet? I realize it is a bit personal [for me] to post that, but I am proud of this as well. I think it is a very lovely part of my attraction and love for women. Actually, it makes me crazy insane filled with the most powerful sense of longing that I have EVER FELT! So, that is that. For me. And I'm sure a few others... possibly might be able to relate to this.

May we continue to move on in forward progress. So many thanks to some wonderful posts here and to the moderation.

Sincerely -
WILDCAT

*Who truly hopes everyone did have a wonderful F'n holiday. Honest. (f)

Your most eloquent words speak my truth and my experience as well.

[Apocalipstic]

I apologize, I have not read the last few pages, so if I am being redundant, just ignore me.

I have never on this or any other site made fun of what anyone else does in bed nor said it is gross, or disgusting. It freaks me out when people I consider friends think it is OK to say how I and other Lesbians have sex is disgusting.

I get that people some of you may have slept with might have said to you things that hurt, but it was not ME.

This is not a war where if someone kills a Palestinian, then the Palestinians feel the need to kill an Israeli and vice versa. This is, or should be, friends treating each other with respect.

Again, my apologies to the mods if I am repeating what has already been decided. Had to get it out of my system.

[WILDCAT]

I apologize, I have not read the last few pages, so if I am being redundant, just ignore me.

I have never on this or any other site made fun of what anyone else does in bed nor said it is gross, or disgusting. It freaks me out when people I consider friends think it is OK to say how I and other Lesbians have sex is disgusting.

I get that people some of you may have slept with might have said to you things that hurt, but it was not ME.

This is not a war where if someone kills a Palestinian, then the Palestinians feel the need to kill an Israeli and vice versa. This is, or should be, friends treating each other with respect.

Again, my apologies to the mods if I am repeating what has already been decided. Had to get it out of my system.


Yeah, that is kinda old news here now Apocalipstic. (Just kiddin' ya!)

I was only posting this last time, about folks being sensitive before submitting because of this kind of thing - sure, and just gave the "example" I did. However, I was coming back primarily after reading that someone stated that they didn't like the word lesbian because heterosexuals use it so negatively. So, that was pointed out earlier in this thread, about "homophobia". I thought it was overlooked a bit then. I felt that was a good example to reiterate now again. We do things sometimes without even knowing it. Not that this is what the topic is all about here, no - of course not.

I think the bush has been beat here for now though. (No pun intended!! OK, maybe!!)

Choices for "terms" used are just that. I am proud of my choices right now. They will not fit everyone like they do me.

I was clearly hurt the other day, seeing how this thread was going. I stated as much. I'm glad folks moved through things otherwise. Grateful I am, actually. I really appreciate some wonderful and thoughtful - as well as very supportive posts. Proves we "can" move forward... yes?
__

So, how were YOUR holidays? I really get stressed out at family gatherings. And then to some of us, THIS is our family - can you just imagine! (I'm in a humorous mood here, thank goodness!! Please, do NOT be alarmed.)

Peace now! Be proud of who and what you are. We all should. I just wish for some consideration regarding some of these sensitive topics on a butch/femme site. I would never write about two males together and say anything negative either, or a heterosexual couple - any dynamic of folks together. Love is love. Sexual attraction is that... And we have a very interesting and diverse population here. There are no hard and fast "anything"...

So, I don't need to keep saying that I am fine with everyone else's self-perception or ID, or what-ever the heck. I'm just going to be sure mine is respected, well - I will keep trying anyway, should the need come up.

SMILE!

Have a great day.

WILDCAT

*Sorry for errors and hope this makes sense. I am sleep "mixed up" right now.

[Apocalipstic]

Yeah, that is kinda old news here now Apocalipstic. (Just kiddin' ya!)

I was only posting this last time, about folks being sensitive before submitting because of this kind of thing - sure, and just gave the "example" I did. However, I was coming back primarily after reading that someone stated that they didn't like the word lesbian because heterosexuals use it so negatively. So, that was pointed out earlier in this thread, about "homophobia". I thought it was overlooked a bit then. I felt that was a good example to reiterate now again. We do things sometimes without even knowing it. Not that this is what the topic is all about here, no - of course not.

I think the bush has been beat here for now though. (No pun intended!! OK, maybe!!)

Choices for "terms" used are just that. I am proud of my choices right now. They will not fit everyone like they do me.

I was clearly hurt the other day, seeing how this thread was going. I stated as much. I'm glad folks moved through things otherwise. Grateful I am, actually. I really appreciate some wonderful and thoughtful - as well as very supportive posts. Proves we "can" move forward... yes?
__

So, how were YOUR holidays? I really get stressed out at family gatherings. And then to some of us, THIS is our family - can you just imagine! (I'm in a humorous mood here, thank goodness!! Please, do NOT be alarmed.)

Peace now! Be proud of who and what you are. We all should. I just wish for some consideration regarding some of these sensitive topics on a butch/femme site. I would never write about two males together and say anything negative either, or a heterosexual couple - any dynamic of folks together. Love is love. Sexual attraction is that... And we have a very interesting and diverse population here. There are no hard and fast "anything"...

So, I don't need to keep saying that I am fine with everyone else's self-perception or ID, or what-ever the heck. I'm just going to be sure mine is respected, well - I will keep trying anyway, should the need come up.

SMILE!

Have a great day.

WILDCAT

*Sorry for errors and hope this makes sense. I am sleep "mixed up" right now.


I am a wreck after the holidays too and soooo glad its almost over!

I really was not jumping off your fabulous post! Just saying what I had percolating (sp?) for days. :)

I agree completely love is love and I am so glad there is so much of it here! love, love loveeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

I hope you get caught up on your rest and over the holidays quickly!

:)

Jen

[Toughy]

I don't understand why people find it necessary to intellectualize their ids...I think some confusion at least for me (seems others too) is trying to understand: are people are coming from definition of sexual preference or personal id?

I have been around a lot of years. I id as 'stone femme'. This is my sexual preference. I am sexually attracted to stone butches...I am 'not' a no touch femme. I love 'no touch' butches. The guys that I date, love and partner with already understand where I am coming from.

Now...I am gonna age myself...when I came out...there were dykes and the woman who loved them and lesbians. The thing I realized early on ...I don't relate to 'female on female sex' - this is what lesbian means to me. So if I am talking, to a butch with a possible connection I will let them know 'I am not a lesbian'. The other thing that bugs me about the word lesbian is that it has been and is still used in negative context by hetros.

So maybe some of you consider me 'aniquated' but I have a clear ID and it works for me ;).

I'm so confused by this post....truly confused.

You are not a 'no touch' femme and you only date 'no touch' butches??? How does that work?

What is 'female on female sex'? What is 'lesbian sex'?

If lesbian is defined entirely by sex act(s), is that not just a way to reduce lesbians to only a sex act? I mean that's what the het world does to all us queers..........we are defined by sexual act(s) only..........even though every sexual proclivity you can think of is done (can be done) by most folks regardless of gender identity or biological sex.

I know I am far more than my sexual and erotic proclivities .....and those proclivities are very fluid and always dependent on the dynamic between me and the femme I am with.....

[Gemme]

I'm so confused by this post....truly confused.

You are not a 'no touch' femme and you only date 'no touch' butches??? How does that work?

.....

I have no answers for your other questions of frisky, but I actually know what she meant by this. She's a Stone Femme that partners with Stone Butches. Her partners have the 'no touch' (or no feminizing touching) sexual boundaries that she is fine with and respects. She does not have those same 'no touch' boundaries. She likes to be touched by her partners, especially in a feminizing way.

The rest I am actually interested in hearing the answers to. :)

[NotAnAverageGuy]

What if we didn't analyze each others ID's?

[Jett]

I'm so confused by this post....truly confused.

You are not a 'no touch' femme and you only date 'no touch' butches??? How does that work?

What is 'female on female sex'? What is 'lesbian sex'?

If lesbian is defined entirely by sex act(s), is that not just a way to reduce lesbians to only a sex act? I mean that's what the het world does to all us queers..........we are defined by sexual act(s) only..........even though every sexual proclivity you can think of is done (can be done) by most folks regardless of gender identity or biological sex.

I know I am far more than my sexual and erotic proclivities .....and those proclivities are very fluid and always dependent on the dynamic between me and the femme I am with.....

I've tried to figure out what people mean by "lesbian sex" and address it here (in other posts) several times.... good luck.

Metro
*who's pretty damn sure lesbians all have different likes and dislikes in the bedroom just like everybody else*
.

[Gemme]

What if we didn't analyze each others ID's?

I don't think the attempt is to analyze (as in break down) anyone's ID, but to understand and learn from one another's IDs. If we can't learn from one another, then how in heck can we try to help those outside of our community understand or accept us?

[BullDog]

I am a Stone Butch. Feminizing touch does not factor in at all for me. I am a masculine female (butch). The way someone touches me is not going to make me feel more or less masculine or feminine. I am a Stone Butch Lesbian because that is how I am wired and what feels good to me and what gives me pleasure. I have my own boundaries, likes and dislikes when it comes to sex just like everyone else. There aren't any particular sex acts that qualify or disqualify me to be a lesbian. Being a Stone Butch doesn't disqualify me to be a lesbian either.

I am quite confused about the female on female sex. Unless you are transitioned or consider yourself to have a male body, don't you have a female body? Don't most of us female bodied people have sex with other female bodied people? This is a Lesbian/Queer website and community, right?

[Dragonfly]

I dont know if anyone has stated an opinion on this yet or not. I read them all as they progressed.... but now my mind is cloudy. I just wanted to say that the BIG part of homophobia that I witness in my po dunk area is the sexual acts part of it not the who you love part. Some people gets so phobic and hateful by verbally commenting on their imagined homosexual sex acts-- that arent even accurate or stereotypically correct.... I wanna say just stop trying to guess cause you have no clue what I do in bed less you bed me.

SO can I just say maybe again if someone already has...

A gender ID is NOT a explanation of what you like sexually. Unless you say it is for you personally.... then thats ok with me as long as its not speaking for ALL anybodys IDing like you do...


Wondering...
If we can separate gender ID from sexual likes/dislikes completely.... the way my kids' generation does without thinking maybe everyone will realize all over the world just what that means. Maybe it would be un thought of to wonder if terms will be cast aside if that were to happen globally... separate gender 100% from sexuality....

If we can change our culture's "definitions" as I have seen through the years living within hetero culture and watching it change as I went unnoticed as queer... why cant we do that too.... separate them totally?

Do I have to feel I am lesbian just because I and my sexual partners so far have IDed as a female gender? Maybe if the whole world hears lesbian in that way... but I dont see why that HAS to stay like that forever if that is the "way it is".

And if I feel I ID as lesbian but am drawn to BF dynamics... does that mean I like to hide my homosexuality within the masculinity of butches.... as if I am pretending to be hetero without actually being one? Who cares.... if you think that of me anyway...

I dont view BF dynamics as male genders and female genders. That is why I like that people state it and dont act like we should all know by one term of their ID. Thats why I like two ply ID's and the idea of new terms added.

** sorry still A little tender from the card pullers of my intro to the community...

Btw, NO ONE has ever accepted me as one of "their team" from the hets and or the homes. Whomever mentioned bisexuals as the new bashed ID I think has it right for a certain generation... maybe not my kids' though....

Until BF community I was not enough of anything to "qualify" because its always all about the sex and how or who you do what with.

Thats why I like to think gender does not = sexuality.

:LGBTQFlag:

[NotAnAverageGuy]

I don't think the attempt is to analyze (as in break down) anyone's ID, but to understand and learn from one another's IDs. If we can't learn from one another, then how in heck can we try to help those outside of our community understand or accept us?


I agree about learning but the bickering is what I see as a problem. I see bickering over words that define each and everyone of us, to me that is disturbing.

[Gemme]

I agree about learning but the bickering is what I see as a problem. I see bickering over words that define each and everyone of us, to me that is disturbing.

*nods*

It is difficult to see past the clashing of terms, I admit. I do feel it's necessary to do so, so that there won't be friction between the members of our community.

It is oftentimes a slow, bumpy road though.

[Cyclopea]

I am a Stone Butch. Feminizing touch does not factor in at all for me. I am a masculine female (butch). The way someone touches me is not going to make me feel more or less masculine or feminine. I am a Stone Butch Lesbian because that is how I am wired and what feels good to me and what gives me pleasure. I have my own boundaries, likes and dislikes when it comes to sex just like everyone else. There aren't any particular sex acts that qualify or disqualify me to be a lesbian. Being a Stone Butch doesn't disqualify me to be a lesbian either.

I am quite confused about the female on female sex. Unless you are transitioned or consider yourself to have a male body, don't you have a female body? Don't most of us female bodied people have sex with other female bodied people? This is a Lesbian/Queer website and community, right?

I don't know what "feminizing touch" is either.:confused:
:deepthoughts:
Are there forms of touch that magically confer masculinity or femininity on the recipient?
What would be a form of masculinizing touch or feminizing touch?
Inquiring minds want to know!

[Dragonfly]

Feminizing Touch
Does that mean "in a way that reminds you that you are female born"? I mean does that describe the way your "bits" are stimulated? To use Selenay's term for them I once saw and stole from her recently cause its cute.

I do see a difference in technique... and have made love differently to a man than to a woman. See what I mean by terms that would be less confusing? If you mean "in a way that would make ANYONE feel like the female parts are being stimulated and not like a males parts are being stimulated" THAT would be too stereotyping for me....

Someone once said when I make love to a male IDed person I may touch their parts... but I dont touch them in the same way as I would or have touched females. I thought that was easy to understand without graphic details.

*** For graphic details see my next post under my erotica lol

[Gemme]

I don't know what "feminizing touch" is either.:confused:
:deepthoughts:
Are there forms of touch that magically confer masculinity or femininity on the recipient?
What would be a form of masculinizing touch or feminizing touch?
Inquiring minds want to know!

For someone that does not identify with their female anatomy, touching their chest as one would touch the breasts of a female-identified person is an example of feminizing touch.

Yes, some touches are magical...both good and bad...for the recipient.

[NotAnAverageGuy]

*nods*

It is difficult to see past the clashing of terms, I admit. I do feel it's necessary to do so, so that there won't be friction between the members of our community.

It is oftentimes a slow, bumpy road though.

Agreed

and as far as feminizing touch goes, for me personally, touching my chest is feminizing. To me it is bad enough that I have them but it irks me to think of my partner touching me there.

[Dragonfly]

Notanaverageguy:

Just wanted to ask since you are here and answering... would a set of nails digging into your chest area during a passionate moment be the same to you as a partner touching them...?

[NotAnAverageGuy]

Notanaverageguy:

Just wanted to ask since you are here and answering... would a set of nails digging into your chest area during a passionate moment be the same to you as a partner touching them...?

yes, I don't like hands near that area at all, I prefer nails on the back

[Dragonfly]

NAAG: Thank you for explaining that. I know we are derailing the topic a bit. Some who ID the same as you do may feel differently to an extent.... but its still the same idea that I think a lot of people may sometimes get offended about. Like saying feminizing you is bad for you specifically because you are "better than" femme.... and not just as an issue of sexual likes related to how you are being you... and how you ID with your sexuality as well.

AND I wanted to add that like you NotAAG.... not many of the Bio born males I have been with got anything sexual out of my playing with their pepperonies. AND That does NOT mean they think females or femmes are not as cool as they are. Just didnt "do it" for them. I never thought they were masochistic or anti woman if they didnt really get off on a gal licking their taint either. I just went and found someone who liked what I like... and didnt get upset at them for being strait-forward. Like I hope no one gets with you...

AND I just had to say...I really tried not to....

THAT a few of them did like it. Some of them were not male IDed bio born males who had the typically male stereotyped sexual needs. They were kinky Heterosexual Id'ed bio born males... and they loved that I saw past what "bits" they were born with and let their kinkiness be OK.

:threadjack:

[NotAnAverageGuy]

NAAG: Thank you for explaining that. I know we are derailing the topic a bit. Some who ID the same as you do may feel differently to an extent.... but its still the same idea that I think a lot of people may sometimes get offended about. Like saying feminizing you is bad for you specifically because you are "better than" femme.... and not just as an issue of sexual likes related to how you are being you... and how you ID with your sexuality as well.

AND I wanted to add that like you NotAAG.... not many of the Bio born males I have been with got anything sexual out of my playing with their pepperonies. AND That does NOT mean they think females or femmes are not as cool as they are. Just didnt "do it" for them. I never thought they were masochistic or anti woman if they didnt really get off on a gal licking their taint either. I just went and found someone who liked what I like... and didnt get upset at them for being strait-forward. Like I hope no one gets with you...

AND I just had to say...I really tried not to....

THAT a few of them did like it. Some of them were not male IDed bio born males who had the typically male stereotyped sexual needs. They were kinky Heterosexual Id'ed bio born males... and they loved that I saw past what "bits" they were born with and let their kinkiness be OK.

:threadjack:


No problem, like Gemme said it should be part of the discussion so we can all learn, I know not everyone feels the same way as I do, hence me using the words to me and for myself, etc in posts.


Thank you for being honest and forthright with your posts, it opens my eyes up on other aspects.

[Dragonfly]

I used the words kinky and heterosexual because that is how they ID themselves not a reflection on my own personal opinions of their said choices.

And I just love that talking goes on in threads that may have been negative at some point.

I love to see poeple make up. Its almost but not quite worth the pain of seeing the fight.


** If there was an actual fight by definition I didnt really think so just a term used broadly to say I love this thread.

[friskyfemme]

I have no answers for your other questions of frisky, but I actually know what she meant by this. She's a Stone Femme that partners with Stone Butches. Her partners have the 'no touch' (or no feminizing touching) sexual boundaries that she is fine with and respects. She does not have those same 'no touch' boundaries. She likes to be touched by her partners, especially in a feminizing way.

The rest I am actually interested in hearing the answers to. :)
ok enough. I will try to explain myself. My comment about not relating as a lesbian is simply as I stated. It has to do with my interpretation of the term. I partner with male id butches. I do not participate in fondling or mouthing the female parts of my partners. However, I do enjoy and invite it for myself. As I stated in my post 'this is what is I termed as 'female on female' sex which is what I have known as the distinction between stone and lesbian. I id as a femme. Which in itself has diferent meanings for different people. I have seen by response that others' have a different reference for all of the above mentioned. I am in no way attempting to define anyone else or making any derogatory comment about anyone else's id or sexual preferences. I was simply offering my own and explaining why. Which is what I thought was the spirit of this thread. If I offended anyone it is not my intent. The fact that I am offended by some of the comments here, I chose to believe were not intended as such.

[friskyfemme]

I'm so confused by this post....truly confused.

You are not a 'no touch' femme and you only date 'no touch' butches??? How does that work?

What is 'female on female sex'? What is 'lesbian sex'?

If lesbian is defined entirely by sex act(s), is that not just a way to reduce lesbians to only a sex act? I mean that's what the het world does to all us queers..........we are defined by sexual act(s) only..........even though every sexual proclivity you can think of is done (can be done) by most folks regardless of gender identity or biological sex.

I know I am far more than my sexual and erotic proclivities .....and those proclivities are very fluid and always dependent on the dynamic between me and the femme I am with.....
Thanks to Gemme for the segway... I will try to explain myself. My comment about not relating as a lesbian is simply as I stated. It has to do with my interpretation of the term. I partner with male id butches. I do not participate in fondling or mouthing the female parts of my partners. However, I do enjoy and invite it for myself. As I stated in my post this is what 'I' termed as 'female on female' sex which is what 'I' have known as the distinction between stone and lesbian. I id as a femme. Which in itself has different meanings for different people. I have deduced by responses that others' have a different reference for all of the above mentioned. I am in no way attempting to define anyone else or making any derogatory comment about anyone else's id or sexual preferences. I was simply offering my own and explaining why. Which is what I thought was the spirit of this thread. If I offended anyone it is not my intent. The fact that I am offended by some of the comments here, I chose to believe were not intended as such.

[Dragonfly]

Aww Friskyfemme sorry to hear you feel like that... ok enough. Even the worst said thought is still helping everyone else. Lots read that dont post.

I missed what parts you thought were offensive lately... unless you meant earlier in the thread and or from the time area where you were quoting? Could you clarify when you were offended ... that is if you were newly offended or didnt post specifically what was offensive.... will you please post that for me?

It is very important to me to keep my head around what is offensive and why and to whom. I want to learn, grow and not make ANYone feel unwelcome here.... so you could help me do that in hypothetical future by giving me a heads up on it. If it is not anything newly posted or something you already said was offensive somewhere... Sorry nevermind I am re reading this thread to note all expressed offended feelings for future reference anyway....

Thank you for being so patient and welcoming to everyone's posts.

D.

[apretty]

I don't know what "feminizing touch" is either.:confused:
:deepthoughts:
Are there forms of touch that magically confer masculinity or femininity on the recipient?
What would be a form of masculinizing touch or feminizing touch?
Inquiring minds want to know!

Part 1

(warning: below are some outrageous examples used in attempt to discuss what it is to sexually 'feminize'. cringe-worthy, read with caution)

i asked my ever-insightful partner if he feels as though there are touches that are *feminizing* and if so what they might be. he couldn't really come up with one, so i offered, 'what if i said i was going to 'finger bang' you?' which got an eyeroll and a, 'you know i don't like that' so i asked, 'why? is it feminizing?' and he said, 'no, i'm just not into it' so, i continued, 'what if i went over and did a 'motorboat' on your chest-area?' and he laughed, 'i'd laugh' i persisted, 'would you get mad? would you think it was feminizing?' he explained, 'if you did that i know you'd be joking' (i wouldn't do that, btw) again i asked, 'is it feminizing?' and he's patient so he said, 'no, not feminizing, we just have been together long enough for me to know what you like and for you to know what i like...' so, of course i persisted, 'what if i said i wanted to suck your hot wet pussy?' again, he didn't find *any* of my examples as much 'feminizing' as absurd. i think i'm concluding that i can't 'feminize' what isn't feminine and attempting to wouldn't be what either of us is about. (additionally, i did try to discover WHY it is that he doesn't like a certain, 'sensation' (ones that i do) but was without success beyond, 'i just don't')

Part 2

also, i don't believe in stone femme (unless you define stone femme as someone with boundaries regarding touch, of their personal person.) otherwise 'stone femme' just means that someone isn't attracted to who their sleeping with--which is cool, i don't judge--but lets get on the same page, already.

Part 3

i'm reading, 'nickel and dimed' and i'm pretty sure it has me interested in conducting covert social research.

[Cyclopea]

Part 1

(warning: below are some outrageous examples used in attempt to discuss what it is to sexually 'feminize'. cringe-worthy, read with caution)

i asked my ever-insightful partner if he feels as though there are touches that are *feminizing* and if so what they might be. he couldn't really come up with one, so i offered, 'what if i said i was going to 'finger bang' you?' which got an eyeroll and a, 'you know i don't like that' so i asked, 'why? is it feminizing?' and he said, 'no, i'm just not into it' so, i continued, 'what if i went over and did a 'motorboat' on your chest-area?' and he laughed, 'i'd laugh' i persisted, 'would you get mad? would you think it was feminizing?' he explained, 'if you did that i know you'd be joking' (i wouldn't do that, btw) again i asked, 'is it feminizing?' and he's patient so he said, 'no, not feminizing, we just have been together long enough for me to know what you like and for you to know what i like...' so, of course i persisted, 'what if i said i wanted to suck your hot wet pussy?' again, he didn't find *any* of my examples as much 'feminizing' as absurd. i think i'm concluding that i can't 'feminize' what isn't feminine and attempting to wouldn't be what either of us is about. (additionally, i did try to discover WHY it is that he doesn't like a certain, 'sensation' (ones that i do) but was without success beyond, 'i just don't')

Part 2

also, i don't believe in stone femme (unless you define stone femme as someone with boundaries regarding touch, of their personal person.) otherwise 'stone femme' just means that someone isn't attracted to who their sleeping with--which is cool, i don't judge--but lets get on the same page, already.

Part 3

i'm reading, 'nickel and dimed' and i'm pretty sure it has me interested in conducting covert social research.

OK I just gotta ask- what is "motorboating"?
Concerned I may be missing out on something here! Help a butch sista out!
:sailing:

[Linus]

OK I just gotta ask- what is "motorboating"?
Concerned I may be missing out on something here! Help a butch sista out!
:sailing:

Uh... place face between partners breasts, move face from side to side while either yelling or making "motorboat" sounds.. :cheesy:

[Cyclopea]

Uh... place face between partners breasts, move face from side to side while either yelling or making "motorboat" sounds.. :cheesy:

wtf? I'm assuming you jest!
Hilarious guess tho....
You ARE joking, right? Right???

[apretty]

Uh... place face between partners breasts, move face from side to side while either yelling or making "motorboat" sounds.. :cheesy:

yes, that would be it

[Linus]

wtf? I'm assuming you jest!
Hilarious guess tho....
You ARE joking, right? Right???

No.. not joking. K actually likes it and it does add fun and giggles to an even more enjoyable morning/afternoon/evening :cheesy:

[Gemme]

apretty, I really enjoy your pov most of the time, but I have to admit I find it a bit dismissive to an entire group of femmes (myself included) to say you don't believe in Stone Femmes, with the exception of one kind.

Well, Hell...I can't tell anyone what to believe in or not, so I'm kind of stumped as to how to approach you on this. Everyone's free to their opinon, of course, and that's yours but as someone who was effectively tossed aside into the "make believe" pile, I have to say that I do, indeed, exist and I do not fall into the definition that you carry for Stone Femmes.

I am respectful of my partner's boundaries without personally having the 'no fly' zones that one may typically associate with Stones and I am actually VERY attracted to who I sleep with....when I can get him close enough to do so. :)

[Cyclopea]

yes, that would be it

No.. not joking. K actually likes it and it does add fun and giggles to an even more enjoyable morning/afternoon/evening :cheesy:

Oh MY GAY!
Why have I never heard of this?!?
I have never been motorboated, and suddenly I feel as if I've never been loved at all!
*placing motorboating ad on craigslist*
That is TOO funny!!!

[apretty]

apretty, I really enjoy your pov most of the time, but I have to admit I find it a bit dismissive to an entire group of femmes (myself included) to say you don't believe in Stone Femmes, with the exception of one kind.


sorry, Gemme, no offense meant.

[Gemme]

sorry, Gemme, no offense meant.


I figured as much, as I've read you for years now, but just wanted to put it out there that we do exist. :)

[PapaC]

man there sure would be a hell of a lot of chest hairs to navigate around if someone were to "motorboat" my breasts(ticles). just sayin'

<giggle>

Carry on!

This drive by brought to you by,

[Kosmo]

man there sure would be a hell of a lot of chest hairs to navigate around if someone were to "motorboat" my breasts(ticles). just sayin'

<giggle>

Carry on!

This drive by brought to you by,

That someone would need one of these then:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/99/Air_boat.jpg/250px-Air_boat.jpg

;)

[Cyclopea]

LOLOLOLOLOL
OMG
LMAO
:p
yooze are too freakin' funny!

[Toughy]

see this is what I dont get..........

All of us suspend reality and believe a penis shaped dildo is actually a real live cock.....butch cock. I know for myself when I strap on it's my cock. A blowjob I can feel on this detachable butch cock because that butch cock is real in my mind and her mind.

I also have had my clit be a clit and my clit has also been a cock. It all depends on what's going on (energy wise) between me and the femme in my (or her) bed. She can suck my clit or suck my cock. Whichever it is is real in my mind and her mind.

Sometimes suspending reality is (in my mind) part and parcel of this erotic dance called butch/femme.

I also know that my sexual boundaries are different with every femme I have ever been with. I have had what is typically thought of as stone relationships as well as relationships where all parts are accessible all the time. And relationships that fall in the middle. As I said my sexuality is pretty fluid.

I'm done with this derail.

oh...........frisky..........I'm not offended in any way........takes a lot more than this to offend me.

[Words]

man there sure would be a hell of a lot of chest hairs to navigate around if someone were to "motorboat" my breasts(ticles). just sayin'

<giggle>

Carry on!

This drive by brought to you by,

B's make me sneeze. A lot.

Very sexy (the sneezing that is). Not.

Words

[SuperFemme]

see this is what I dont get..........

All of us suspend reality and believe a penis shaped dildo is actually a real live cock.....butch cock. I know for myself when I strap on it's my cock. A blowjob I can feel on this detachable butch cock because that butch cock is real in my mind and her mind.

I also have had my clit be a clit and my clit has also been a cock. It all depends on what's going on (energy wise) between me and the femme in my (or her) bed. She can suck my clit or suck my cock. Whichever it is is real in my mind and her mind.

Sometimes suspending reality is (in my mind) part and parcel of this erotic dance called butch/femme.

I also know that my sexual boundaries are different with every femme I have ever been with. I have had what is typically thought of as stone relationships as well as relationships where all parts are accessible all the time. And relationships that fall in the middle. As I said my sexuality is pretty fluid.

I'm done with this derail.

oh...........frisky..........I'm not offended in any way........takes a lot more than this to offend me.

Toughy said blowjob. <insert beavis and butthead laugh here>

[Apocalipstic]

see this is what I dont get..........

All of us suspend reality and believe a penis shaped dildo is actually a real live cock.....butch cock. I know for myself when I strap on it's my cock. A blowjob I can feel on this detachable butch cock because that butch cock is real in my mind and her mind.

I also have had my clit be a clit and my clit has also been a cock. It all depends on what's going on (energy wise) between me and the femme in my (or her) bed. She can suck my clit or suck my cock. Whichever it is is real in my mind and her mind.

Sometimes suspending reality is (in my mind) part and parcel of this erotic dance called butch/femme.

I also know that my sexual boundaries are different with every femme I have ever been with. I have had what is typically thought of as stone relationships as well as relationships where all parts are accessible all the time. And relationships that fall in the middle. As I said my sexuality is pretty fluid.

I'm done with this derail.

oh...........frisky..........I'm not offended in any way........takes a lot more than this to offend me.

That, except for I have the dick.

[Toughy]

That, except for I have the dick.

I have always wondered how a femme relates to her dick/cock. It can't be the same as the way a butch relates to her/hys cock.....or can it?

anyway that would be a total derail and doesn't require an answer.....

[Bob]

Part 1

('what if i said i was going to 'finger bang' you?'

Maybe E'd like it better coming from Eric Cartman:

YouTube- SOUTH PARK-FINGERBANG
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDD3SfXZl3Q)

[apretty]

Maybe E'd like it better coming from Eric Cartman:

YouTube- SOUTH PARK-FINGERBANG (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3O37DFSa7fs)
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDD3SfXZl3Q)

dear chef period-casserole,

shouldn't you be working instead of causing dissent?

[Kosmo]

I have always wondered how a femme relates to her dick/cock. It can't be the same as the way a butch relates to her/hys cock.....or can it?

anyway that would be a total derail and doesn't require an answer.....

*jumping on the derail track for a sec*

However a femme wants to relate would be my opinion ;)

*jumps back off*

[friskyfemme]

Good day to all...

As it is with my thought patterns...this thought just came to mind with relationship to labelling...it seems that persons label themselves based on the event taking place when they discover themselves...similar to the Native American tradition of naming a child based upon the awareness of the name giver at the time the individual presents his/her self. Or, as in religious ceremonies, where the celebrated one receives or choses another name that personifies who they are...I personally believe that we identify with the energy related to our name (label). stonefemme=7. Lucky! Now on a tangent
putting numerical value to labels here!

[Dex]

The site is called Butch Femme Planet . I identify as femme, I don't conform to any labels other than that. I have an identity, I know where I fit in, I don't need others approvals or acceptance, no matter how old or young they are.
THere is too much dicing and splicing, and I never understand how things get heated so over all the labels.

The sun is old but it shines just as bright. It is our most valuable antique.

[hippieflowergirl]

*jumping on the derail track for a sec*

However a femme wants to relate would be my opinion ;)

*jumps back off*


:threadjack: wait Kos...what is it you're jumping on and off of exactly? :cracked:

[Apocalipstic]

I have always wondered how a femme relates to her dick/cock. It can't be the same as the way a butch relates to her/hys cock.....or can it?

anyway that would be a total derail and doesn't require an answer.....


Ha, I just saw this.

I think it can be the same way. Heh!

I know not every Butch relates to her/his dick in the way way either. For some it is a sex toy, for some it's an always there body organ, for some its there when it's there, for some it's mental.

All I know is it makes the top of my head blowoff (Pun intended) and makes me feel invincible, powerful, hot, sexy and in control.....smirk.

:angel:

[LieslKate]

can someone put into laymans terms what antiquated means so I can understand, when I looked it up it confused me, I ain't the smartest ya know!!!!

if anyone has answered this 'cause I've not finished all the pages of the Thread... basically if something is 60+ years old its considered an antique... me in SIX.FIVE years :eek: !!!!!!!!!! So something that is an antique or antiquated ( the adjective conjugation or discriptive version of the word antique ) is older than that... the Butch/Femme social/sexual dynamic fits that !

I am happy to be an antiquated FEMME Lesbian...

:4femme:

[LieslKate]

Sure Apocalipstic.... I LOVE antiquated Femmes :cheer: !!! ;)

I love that you love antiquated Femmes

:candle:

[LieslKate]

... the whole discussion brings up issues and fears for me cause I have already been through this once in the 70's during the feminist era when I was called a "pawn of the patriarchy" and "copying heterosexual relationships".

The pressure then was no labels. The ugliness of either be andro or you are not welcome in our community and I mean we were ostracized, was sometimes violent. Ever have an angry feminist lesbian pull your hair (too long and girly), push you down and take your heels and throw them, or take your lipstick and write all over your face? I heard in 1970's "butch/femme is dead and old." All these things happened.

Those of us who lived through it know that to see it come around again seems dismissive and hurtful all over again. To write us off as too boxed in is unfair and truly offensive. Gender queer works for some, but to say it is more label free or more andro, and imply that it is better and younger and m ore hip, dismisses my history, dismisses me as a vital person in the universe. There is not, for me, a better form of self description.

Being ridiculed for being femme or butch and appreciating those descriptors was the norm in the 70's. I published and article about 10 years back about this part of the b/f past, one butch said "Everyone wanted to fuck me but they wouldn't walk down the street with me the next morning. No one would talk to me at meetings. I would walk in and there would be a dead silence."

As I said in my first post, I find it very interesting that the discussion is about the alternative terms for butch and none for femme. I agree with Unndunn, about femme invisibility. I, also believe that butch/femme is part of the queer paradigm. For me, a person who is not queer/gay/lesbian/dyke/transensual is not femme, she can be feminine but not femme. Besides, I don't want to change my descriptor.

*sits back and waits for it*

Then too, I heard b/f is dead or dying. Still here. Still alive. Still kickin!

Oh GAWD I remember those days... I would have done ANYTHING to find a Butch then... I not only wanted to fuck them I wanted to marry them, walk down the street with them, bring them home to my Mum, proudly would have taken them anywhere... still would... Butch loving Femme Lesbian that I am.

:love1: Butches til the end of time !

[LieslKate]

Please keep in mind that I am young and haven't had much experience befriending other LGBT people. This is just my two cents, but I find that definition really wierd. There's just too many categories.

Then, what is the true meaning of butch and femme? I mean, universal meaning, or scientific?


Of course. Transgender = one who doesn't identify (gender-wise) as male or female, and/or shares elements of both genders... right? I'd consider myself transgender... but I don't. It's all just too complicated... I don't know. And of course transsexual... and there is such thing as transsexual lesbians... however, if I knew a male who switched to being a female, I'd refer to that person as a regular female regardless without the use of that word transsexual. Just my two cents.


and if you would like to learn more about where Butch / Femme came from a great starting place is "Boots of Leather, Slippers of Gold" written by:
"Elizabeth Lapovsky Kennedy and Madeline D. Davis. Boots of Leather, Slippers of Gold: The History of a Lesbian Community. New York: Publisher: Penguin (Non-Classics) (March 1, 1994) Language: English, ISBN-10: 0140235507, ISBN-13: 978-0140235500
Kennedy and Davis look at a group of lesbians in this book that are largely under-studied. Specifically, they examine working-class lesbians from the mid-1930’s to the early 1960’s in Buffalo, New York. Boots is actually the result of a thirteen-year-long oral history research project designed to focus on the culture of survival and resistance of older, working-class lesbians. What this focus revealed was the centrality of butch-fem roles. A major assumption that Kennedy and Davis work from is that these women’s openness about their lesbianism was crucial not only to the communities they helped form in their own time, but to all lesbian communities which they have provided a model for that have emerged since. They even go so far as to posit that these older lesbians and their lives constitute a prepolitical stage of the 1970’s gay rights movement. Approaching their project from such pre-determined celebratory standpoints drives Kennedy and Davis’ research in a biased manner. While not without its limitations, this study remains groundbreaking work.

In regards to Boots’ relevance to cultural landscape studies, Kennedy and Davis discovered that in their search for working-class lesbians, they found them in public spaces, primarily bar communities. Furthermore, when seeking to uncover lesbian cultures of survival and resistance it was exactly the bar communities that proved to be sites of such politics. Particularly useful to cultural landscapes scholars are chapters 2-4, which “explain the growth and development of the lesbian community, culture, and consciousness in the bars and open house parties of the 1940’s and 1950’s” (25). More specifically, chapter 2 concentrates on the establishment of public lesbian communities; chapter 3 describes the growing public resistance to heteronormative society and the expansion of lesbians’ public presence via lesbian bars; and, chapter 4 examines with more depth how race and class affected community formations within lesbian communities as bars were desegregated and class stratification emerged. Chapter 5, which focuses on how visibility affects the formation of community, identity, and consciousness, may also prove useful to those interested in lesbians (especially butch lesbians) within traditionally defined “public” spaces such as the street. [J. Sapinoso]"

Publisher Comments:
When most lesbians had to hide, how did they find one another? Were the bars of the 1940s and 1950s more fun than the bars today? Did Black and white lesbians socialize together? Boots of Leather, Slippers of Gold is a ground-breaking account of the growth of the lesbian community in Buffalo, New York from the mid-1930s to the early 1960s Drawing on oral histories collected from 45 women, it is the first comprehensive history of a working-class lesbian community. These poignant and complex stories provide a new look at Black and white working-class lesbians as powerful agents of historical change. Their creativity and resilience under oppressive circumstances constructed a better life for all lesbians and expanded possibilities for all women. Based on 13 years of research, Boots of Leather, Slippers of Gold ranges over topics including sex, relationships, coming out, butch-fem roles, motherhood, aging, racism, work, oppression, and pride. Kennedy and Davis provide a unique insider's perspective on butch-fem culture and trace the roots of gay and lesbian liberation to the determined resistance of working-class lesbians. The book begins by focusing on the growth and development of community, culture, and consciousness in the bars and open house parties of the 1930s, '40s, and '50s. It goes on to explore the code of personal behavior and social imperative in butch-fem culture, centering on dress, mannerisms, and gendered sexuality. Finally the book examines serial monogamy, the social forces which shaped love and break-ups, and the changing nature and content of lesbian identity. Capturing the full complexity of lesbian culture, this outstanding book includes extensive quotes fromnarrators that make every topic a living document, a composite picture of the lives of real people fighting for respect and for a place that would be safe for their love. "

"Based on 13 years of research, Boots of Leather, Slippers of Gold ranges over topics including sex, relationships, coming out, butch-fem roles, motherhood, aging, racism, work, oppression, and pride. Kennedy and Davis provide a unique insider's perspective on butch-fem culture, and trace the roots of gay and lesbian liberation to the determined resistance of working-class lesbians. The book begins by focusing on the growth and development of community, culture, and consciousness in the bars and open house parties of the 1930s, 40s, and 50s. It goes on to explore the code of personal behavior and social imperative in butch-fem culture, centering on dress, mannerisms, and gendered sexuality. Finally the book examines serial monogamy, the social forces which shaped love and break-ups, and the changing nature and content of lesbian identity.

Capturing the full complexity of lesbianculture, this outstanding book includes extensive quotes from narrators that make every topic a living document, a composite picture of the lives of real people fighting for respect and for a place that would be safe for their love.

Tracing the roots of gay liberation to the creativity and resilience of lesbian communities such as the one in Buffalo, New York, the authors explore how these women paved the way for a better life for lesbians and gays, and provide a unique insider's perspective on everything from sex, relationships, and motherhood to aging, racism, and pride.

This first ethnography on the development of working-class lesbian communities from the 1930s to the 1960s focuses on a Buffalo, New York, lesbian community. Unlike gay men, gay women, by dressing the way they wanted, going to bars regularly, being financially independent from their families of origin and from men, and by boldly seeking out the company of other women like themselves, unwittingly created a community of their own. The authors argue that because the women in the community gave one another the support necessary to respond aggressively and ``with pride'' when facing an often disapproving and hostile society, they effectively built the real foundation of the gay and lesbian liberation movement. The oral histories of 45 women tell of victimization by their families, straight men, and one another but also recount the joys these women experienced by allowing themselves to be who they really were. Conducted over a 13-year period, these interviews contribute a massive amount of original research to the anthropology of American culture as well as to lesbian history. For academic libraries and women's studies collections.-- Patricia Sarles, Brooklyn Public Library, New York "

Reviews:
". . . the first comprehensive account of a working-class lesbian community. . .." -- Ms. Magazine

"This should be seen as a groundbreaking book, a fascinating look at the pre-political support systems, of friendship groups extended to include ex-lovers' families and children that became one of the foundation blocks for building the gay/lesbian communities of our day." -- San Francisco Review of Books

At a time when many lesbian and gay leaders are urging assimilation and moderation, Boots of Leather, Slippers of Gold recovers a neglected chapter of lesbian and gay history and reminds us of the enduring importance of outlaw roots. -- San Francisco Chronicle-Examiner

. . . the first comprehensive account of a working-class lesbian community. . . -- Ms. Magazine

The book soars on the plain, yet eloquent voices of the women. . . -- Boston Globe

Boots of Leather, Slippers of Gold honors all of us; Liz Kennedy and Madeline Davis have produced a work that opens up the heart and mind. Their book breaks new ground in womens history, Lesbian history, and the history of desire as a lived force in a community under seige. Most of all, they have put back at the center a group of women, who without money or traditional power, fought for and won a public place where women queers could celebrate their love. -- Joan Nestle, Co-founder of the Lesbian Herstory Archives and Editor of The Persistent Desire: A Femme-Butch Reader

While some of this book is a juicy account of who did what to whom, the heart of Boots of Leather lies in its careful, insightful evaluation of the development of the Buffalo lesbian community through its bars. -- Lambda Book Report

This pioneering history of a working-class lesbian community is doubly marked by its scholarly care and its human compassion. Kennedy and Davis have adhered to the most scrupulous standards of serious historical work, yet at the same time have treated the subjects of their scrutiny with profound delicacy and respect. Boots of Leather, Slippers of Gold is one of the finest works yet to emerge in the burgeoning field of gay and lesbian studies. -- Martin Duberman, Distinguished Professor of History, CUNY Graduate `chool, and Director of the Center for Lesbian and Gay Studies

Rarely does a book break entirely new ground, but this is surely one that does. With love, passion, and empathy, Kennedy and Davis bring to life the history of a working-class lesbian community. A complex, fascinating, and evocative world, it has much to tell us about gender, sexuality, class, and urban life. Above all, this is a story about the triumph of the human spirit over horrible adversity. The voices of these women sing on every page. -- John DEmilio, University of North Carolina at Greensboro

Boots of Leather, Slippers of Gold incorporates both academic values of sound scholarship and the lesbian communitys need for roots and for affirmation of our identity as woman-loving women. -- The Empty Chest

This very first community study of lesbians will radically advance the state of knowledge in gay and lesbian studies. Nuanced, lovingly researched and provocative, both the description and the argument are food for thinking people. -- Esther Newton, State University of New York at Purchase and author of Cherry Grove, Fire Island: Sixty Years in Americas First Gay and Lesbian Town

...Elizabeth Lapovsky Kennedy's and Madeline D. Davis' history of the lesbian working-class cummunity in Buffalo. Drawing on oral history as well as records, the authors have represented a microcosmic study of a fascinating and vital community. The importance of class and race and the techniques of survival in the face of oppression marked the historical experience of these women. Kennedy and Davis have written about the specific local development of a consciousness of a kind that is required for a liberation movement and that they show existed before Stonewall in Buffalo. -- The Los Angeles Times

http://books.google.com/books?id=0T8F0daflZ4C&dq=boots+of+Leather,+slippers+of+Gold&printsec=frontcover&source=bn&hl=en&ei=PChaS4j3Ho-XlAfL3LH7BA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CCIQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=&f=false

Can't know where you are going 'til you know where you came from...

[LieslKate]

"It's sort of like that. Lesbians are 486/SX's, post-lesbians are Macbook Pros.

</tongue>

Cheers
Aj "

*hauls yer tongue outta yer cheek* POST-Lesbians??????? :P

[LieslKate]

If you give me week or so, I'm sure I can write an AppleScript so that you can use it as a remote control for your favorite vibrator. LOL

Cheers
Aj

http://www.ohmibod.com/

*SMIRKS*

[Bad_boi]

Butch and femme are just terms. They only limit you if you let them. You can do what you wanna do and like what you like. Butches can do girl stuff. Femmes can do guy stuff.

[Medusa]

Im going to put a placeholder here for myself to come back and talk about how "Butch" and "Femme" spaces are morphing with respect to "Genderqueer".

Have to write about that one when I get home tonight. :)

[AtLast]

My experience as of late with more lesbian groupings has been positive in terms of my being a butch. Nothing like what I remember in the 1970's when a butch or femme was given a lot of flack from political lesbians. Interesting, as I do have a lesbian couple living across the street from me that trips when seeing me in a tux or suit. But, they are the exceptions. I actually feel more marginialized within the B-F community much of the time.

Something that has occured to me is that I am simply comfortable with myself and butch presentation. I engage with people no matter what group is present. Sure, I see a few of those glances at times, but, I look past these and talk with people and leave the chips behind. What I find is that a look is just that, a look and when someone finds that I am just like every one else in terms of communication, interersts, goals, experiences, etc., we don't have to remain stuck in labels, but relate as human beings.

Yes, we have gone through a lot of crap through the years, however, I am not going to assume or pre-judge what someone else that does not know me might do or say. I just don't navigate the world based upon a defensive stance. If something comes up, I'll deal with it then.

[PapaC]

Im going to put a placeholder here for myself to come back and talk about how "Butch" and "Femme" spaces are morphing with respect to "Genderqueer".

Have to write about that one when I get home tonight. :)

Oy my dear, do NOT get me started on this discussion. no.really.do.not.
lol.

GenderQueer appears to be a 'catch-all' term that some co-op for themselves (like I did for a short while) but it *feels* like it's becoming a default... haven't quite put my finger on my issue around this term but here's where it gets a little complicated for me.

to nutshell it: I suspect gender queer doesn't properly/fully/or at all defines a female identified butch lesbian any more than it properly/fully/or at all defines a transguy.

What has me a little bitter around that is, it's been a challenge in finding real time community that 'fits'.

it will be interesting to see how the discussion does unfold.

[ravfem]

....

Something that has occured to me is that I am simply comfortable with myself and butch presentation. I engage with people no matter what group is present. Sure, I see a few of those glances at times, but, I look past these and talk with people and leave the chips behind. What I find is that a look is just that, a look and when someone finds that I am just like every one else in terms of communication, interersts, goals, experiences, etc., we don't have to remain stuck in labels, but relate as human beings.

Yes, we have gone through a lot of crap through the years, however, I am not going to assume or pre-judge what someone else that does not know me might do or say. I just don't navigate the world based upon a defensive stance. If something comes up, I'll deal with it then.

i agree with you AtLast. i find that when i give people the opportunity to see that our interactions are as 'normal' as theirs, they tend to be more open and less on edge. Yes, there are some who give 'the look' and/or make comments, but usually i tend to just let them slide on past with a smile...unless it's one of those moments. :eyebrow: This goes for as many gay women as straights, btw. Gay men around here seem to be the only group who are, generally, non-judgmental about b-f dynamics.

i have found that for me, here, people usually tend to not get so defensive and ready to judge without thinking when they are given the opportunity to realize that the relationships i have with the butches in my life are as normal and natural as their relationships with their friends & lovers.

i mean, if i go into a social situation with my defenses up, ready to counter-attack, what can i expect, really?? :slapfight: (i love that smilie!)

[Medusa]

Oy my dear, do NOT get me started on this discussion. no.really.do.not.
lol.

GenderQueer appears to be a 'catch-all' term that some co-op for themselves (like I did for a short while) but it *feels* like it's becoming a default... haven't quite put my finger on my issue around this term but here's where it gets a little complicated for me.

to nutshell it: I suspect gender queer doesn't properly/fully/or at all defines a female identified butch lesbian any more than it properly/fully/or at all defines a transguy.

What has me a little bitter around that is, it's been a challenge in finding real time community that 'fits'.

it will be interesting to see how the discussion does unfold.



This is pretty much what I have been trying to tease out in my own thoughts.

The term "genderqueer" doesnt fit me as a "Femme" because I view "Femme" as my gender. And while I am certainly "Queer" in the way that I identify it and define it, "Genderqueer" feels kinda "othering" as a blanket term as applied to me.

I can see how this might feel much the same to a Transperson :)

[Rook]

For a rather long time, I did identify as Aggressive, I didn't know any better description for how I felt.
One bless'd evening my girl gave me a Book after a really rough day facing off some bullies, and I swear..I thought I heard a choir somewhere [-crax up-]
the Book was "Stone Butch Blues"
At the time I was 16, full of piss n vinegar{still am, sometimes}...
I happily embraced 'stone butch', and I have had a lot of those looks, Myself.
Granted, I did meet their glance with challenge back then, got into huge messes with a few "Campus feminist dykes", an ex of my best friend was the Bane of my fucking existence while I crashed on her couch..
I often stopped the argument with "the only reason I'm walking away is because I respect my friends house..just remember this lil phrase divide and conquer"
I don't think it's antiquated to refer yourself as Femme or Butch, our community has a Long history in the 'struggle', to deny ourselves those precious I.D.'s is to deny all those who went against the grain when it was so easy to prosecute/persecute and stuff in a Mental Ward{with ECT as added bonus}.
Nowadays I do use other I.D.'s in addition, but mostly only to give a clear Idea where I stand within some sub-cultures/groups.
Otherwise?
I'm Me, take it or leave it, draw your own conclusions as time goes by.
My boi told me something the other night that I agree with fully, the Rainbow doesn't begin to cover everything we identify with.
I seldom wave a Pride flag in my town because far too often, they'll just assume I'm a pot-smokin Deadhead.
{nothing wrong with it, I just...rarely smoke, and if I know 2 songs from Cherry Garcia, I'm lucky}

So, yeah, I wear my Butch "button" proudly, stares, glares, pre-judged glances be damned. And I'm 33, so..ageism can go down the drain too...

[Lady Pamela]

All I can say is if it is anique...The younger generations where I live are walking in our footsteps...lol

My grandaughter is very old school butch, Her girl very femme and they both love it dearly..As do all the younger generation I have the honor of working with...smiles

Just saying.

[AtLast]

Thinking about it being a good thing for each generation to adapt whatever definitions/terms/identifiers for itself. I do see butch-femme used throughout all, however, yet each generation has put its own signatures on these terms. Makes me think they are elastic... and can fit with these adjustments and adaptations.

As I have said before, when attending the Butch Voices Conference, I talked with a lot of younger butches and femmes that do not use either or even much of the trans language we have. Frankly, this feels like a means to get away from the traditional gender binary in societies that have been ruled by them and languages such as English that just don't have the linguistic breadth concerning gender terms. Many native cultures (and Asian) seem to do a better job around this.

If I am an antique, its OK. And new terms are good, too!

I agree that genderqueer has become a default. I see this as useful and a means to promote coalitions. But, this is only my opinion. I guess I am more interested in the dynamics of human interaction and relationships rather than terminology. This cannot happen simply from a term or label, it takes communication skills and a desire to form connections and grow.

:LGBTQFlag:

[BullDog]

Genderqueer is not a term that resonates with me at all. I find queer useful as an inclusive umbrella term.

[Pretty Woman]

Just moved over from the 'other' site and looking for a thread or two where I feel like I have something relevant to contribute. I suppose that living in NYC for almost 2 decades and being embraced by the Lesbian Herstory Archives almost immediately upon my arrival, I have naively assumed that butch and femme are still everywhere and that the folks who identify as either are embraced by the rest of their own communities whatever those may be.
Honestly, it's only since I've begun to participate in an online butch-femme community that I've experienced difficulty from my POV.
I am a lesbian femme. And what I have experienced is almost an exclusion of 'us' from the femme moniker online. It has been confusing and I have had alot of anger at those who seemingly work very hard to erase the lesbian from femme (or butch). It feels homophobic to me. Not sure if others have had that experience but the antiquation from my perspective has been to the 'lesbian' part of my femme as opposed to the femme itself.

[cinderella]

I revel in the butch-femme dicotomy. But then I am 67 years old,so who knows what the next or oncoming generation will want to dictate. It matters little to me...but then I'm old school, that known, which I am sure the 'new generation is trying so desperataely to dissolve. OK, good luck to them that is what the masses want.But I'll be damned if that's what the Lesbian world wants - there will always be Lesbians that don't fit the butch-femme mold.

[Corkey]

I'm gonna say it again, some of us aren't lesbians. Yet those who are look down from their high horses and scoff at we who aren't, and pronounce that we shouldn't be among you who are. What ever happened to diversity? What ever happened to letting folks be who they are? Boxes and labels aren't who Humans are.
My.02

[Martina]

I'm gonna say it again, some of us aren't lesbians. Yet those who are look down from their high horses and scoff at we who aren't, and pronounce that we shouldn't be among you who are. What ever happened to diversity? What ever happened to letting folks be who they are? Boxes and labels aren't who Humans are.
My.02

On the other site, for a long time, it was the other way around. VERY few people seemed to be willing to admit to identifying as lesbians, AND MANY MANY people felt totally free to make fun of lesbians. IMO, that was tolerated by the admins. It took a few people making quite a lot of noise to get some attention paid to that issue. i am HAPPY to see people freely ID as lesbian here. It was not always that way on the old site.

[Jett]

Just moved over from the 'other' site and looking for a thread or two where I feel like I have something relevant to contribute. I suppose that living in NYC for almost 2 decades and being embraced by the Lesbian Herstory Archives almost immediately upon my arrival, I have naively assumed that butch and femme are still everywhere and that the folks who identify as either are embraced by the rest of their own communities whatever those may be.
Honestly, it's only since I've begun to participate in an online butch-femme community that I've experienced difficulty from my POV.
I am a lesbian femme. And what I have experienced is almost an exclusion of 'us' from the femme moniker online. It has been confusing and I have had alot of anger at those who seemingly work very hard to erase the lesbian from femme (or butch). It feels homophobic to me. Not sure if others have had that experience but the antiquation from my perspective has been to the 'lesbian' part of my femme as opposed to the femme itself.

Welcome to the forum!

I think you'll find there's plenty of femmes and butches alike who do identify as lesbian on the BF Planet (as well as those who don't).

The important thing is feel free to be who you are without apology, everybody's welcome here.

[Corkey]

On the other site, for a long time, it was the other way around. VERY few people seemed to be willing to admit to identifying as lesbians, AND MANY MANY people felt totally free to make fun of lesbians.

Well this Butch has never made "fun" of anyones ID. Be who you are, and allow others the same respect.

[Massive]

I've found this thread very enlightening, I can't say I've read it from the very start, because the last time I did that I was sat at my desk for about 6 hours.
I call myself GenderQueer, but if someone asks me if I'm Butch, I say yes, I am, because for me I am a GenderQueer Butch Dyke, and I wear my own personal labels with Pride (you can also add to those Syr and Daddy!)
The reason I call myself GenderQueer is because where I live, in the north-eastern part of England, the terms Butch and Femme are considered outdated, to the point where I haven't got a damn clue what the 'kids' today call themselves.
All my life I've been Butch, I can't be any other way, everything I do, wear, say does happen to scream it out loud, unless of course it's some little old lady who looks at me and says "You're such a nice lad." then I mostly nod and grin.
Another reason why I call myself GenderQueer is because here in the UK, it is an uncommon term where I am, it makes people, both straight, gay, purple, alien or otherwise stop and think, there are so many people out in the world who judge us for how we look, who we date, what colour our skin is, the clothes we wear, what tv shows we watch, so I personally ID the way I do because it makes these people who can't see past my pink mohawk or the fact that I'm 6' tall in boots and look like a man from behind cos I've got broad shoulders actually stop and think about the fact that there are so many different and incredibly diverse ways to live in this day and age.
I still talk to gay men on my local scene who remember getting arrested and beaten up by the police for being gay, these self-same men ask me to clarify when they call me a lesbian and I correct them, for me personally 'lesbian' has far too many negative connotations, and again, I'll reiterate, that is MY personal dislike of the term, I will defend, to the hilt anyone elses choice to ID as whoever and however they choose, and always will, because we need that diversity in this community. If for nothing else than the simple fact that without this community, how many of us would have to hide away under some other label or group that we knew we did not belong to?I've watched this kind of thing happen again and again over the past 14 years of my life being out and proud, so many kids don't know how to ID, or have no knowledge of the way we have all ID'd in the past, I was one of those kids when I first came out, and it took me seeing some amazing, strong, good people, both Butch and Femme, to see the Butch in myself, I owe those people a favour, so I try and educate the 'kids' I know today, I see it as a part of the responsibility laid down on my shoulders by the generations who have been here before me.
As a side note and an example of what it's been like for me on the gay scene here in the north-east, I was out with friends, walking down between bars and this girl walked up and asked me if I was new on the scene, so I explained, politely, that I had been out and around since before she left school more than likely, then she asked me why I was 'old fashioned' and dressed the way I did (I had a shirt, t-shirt underneath, jeans and big boots) so I explained, yet again that I was and always had been Butch, to which she answered, "Oh right, well, you know, maybe you're too butch?!" To this day I can't look this girl in the eye now, if that's how people see me, then I think I have finally reached the stage where I think, you know, maybe it doesn't matter how I ID, as long as I know who I am, and my babygirl knows who I am, and I have my friends respect, then who gives a damn? I know who I am, surely that's enough? If someone who doesn't know me, and doesn't care to get to know me has the gall to try and tell me I'm wrong? I think you'll find my response the same as it's ever been ... I am me, don't like it, well, tough shit!

[Lynn]

There is nothing antiquated about the terms or the idea of "butch/femme" to me. I am also a lesbian, which is something about myself that I hold very dear. I don't consider that my own identity negates that of anyone else. I'm a woman who loves women, and butch women add a dimension to my life that I never knew before. My partner ID's as butch, but it isn't the label that attracts me, it's the qualities that she possesses. Being comfortable with herself, in her own skin is what I'm talking about. It may not be about the label, per se, but it is about the qualities.

I have to admit that in daily life, my world is somewhat narrow. Except for the few times I've met people from these sites, I don't have a real time butch-femme community. I don't know how the notion of butch-femme is received, or if it means the same to me as it does to others.

[Kobi]

I am an antique? Maybe I will go on the Road Show program and have myself appraised. What would I go for at auction? I wonder what description the appraiser would give to describe my value or lack thereof?

Nostalgia is making a comeback, as usual. Maybe I can book myself at one of the country fairs, or antique car shows or stuff. Just think, and now, its the antique lesbian show!!!!

I dont see the male community expanding their definitions by leaps and bounds. Maybe its a woman thing, maybe we have internalized too much of the curse of a marketing strategy.

Seeing I have no clue and no desire to learn what most of the new terms mean, I just flirt indiscriminately. It's easier. :seeingstars:

[Jett]

I don't think the terms, identities of butch femme are antiquated... they are as current, relevant and modern as what modern day butches and femmes choose to breathe into them.

I see butch, in it's history, as females against the push of the patriarchy refusing to be what they were supposed to be, refusing to wear the assigned clothing, or act in a feminine "role" when they felt otherwise. Proving that female masculinity is as powerful and valid as a males- that it could be owned it in a way that was new and progressive. I feel like this was a very significant bold forward move.

A lot of butches etc. went through hell and some had their lives stolen for standing up to this policing of sex and gender, the rigid confines surrounding them and the social hierarchies.

That said what was antiquated then (and by far more so today) is that policing of masculinity and femininity, giving more credence to male masculinity over female masculinity and automatically assigning feminine behaviors to the word female or woman... that's whats outdated, not to mention sexist backwards and tired.

That said, ironically I hear a lot of newly "masculine queer females" of all identities rebuke "butch" today because of some of the rigid confines of sex and gender they see exercised in the B-F communities, the emphasis put on male masculinity over female, the policing of masculinity and femininity, male and female, butch and femme- ranking and judging people as to "how" butch/femme or "more or less" or through looks- hair, apparel, or simply and probably most ironically sex ID etc.

I've found I mostly can't even argue much with them about a lot of what they see... except that it's not the majority of B-F community doing that, but right some do and as a friend said to me it only takes one person to shitting in a room to stink up the place.

I agree, but I'm hopeful especially in this new day for the community, this new forum will be a progressive modern example. That we'll see less and less of that type of thinking and more gender and sex equality, respect, and full support for all queer identities (human beings)... than I've seen in other B-F places.

Metropolis

[imadiva]

Count me in !! I love nothing more than to have the words who's your Daddi whispered in my ear by my favorite butch !! We are all women we just choose to express that in very different ways .. I love butch-femme because it feels like a team very different yet working toward the same dreams and goals. I feel that the beauty is in the tradition. I miss the old school ways when a lady was treated like a lady. I feel like now it's a free for all if they only knew how beautiful it is .....AHHHHH.... If that makes me Antiquated so be it !! Give me a big ol'Butch anytime ..... xoxo

[TxBelle]

I find lables helpful. To me, it's like a shopping guide. Example, I want chips. There are an amazing varity within that 'lable', but it helps me find which asile to shop.

[*Anya*]

I guess I don't really care if butch/femme are antiquated terms or if it makes me marginalized.

I am a femme.

I am attracted, in every possible way there is, to butch women.

It is as natural to me as breathing.

It just is my life.

[puddin']

i'm butch as, i'm old skool and i make no apologies about it.

i like bein' a colourful boi, too.

i yam what i yam...

[Finn]

Hello e/Everyone;
I am an Old School Butch/Daddy and I find it hard to find an Old School Femme/Babygirl lately.. Many claim to be Old School yet at times I've found that "label" not correct for them.. In Massachusetts especially the lack of real Old School Femmes/Babygirls are to me anyways,, non existent..
I love being attentive to my Babygirl and doing things to surprise and make her happy.. One day I hope to find my other half,, and hear her call me Daddy again.. Til then I just do what I do and make every day count *S*..
I wish you a/All the best of the New Year and hope e/Everyone stays warm and safe..
Finn
:byebye:

[Ashton]

I find lables helpful. To me, it's like a shopping guide. Example, I want chips. There are an amazing varity within that 'lable', but it helps me find which asile to shop.

:rrose::thumbsup::cheer: Well said 'Belle!!

[AtLast]

What is marginalizing and rather arrogant is the attempt to re-define or "update" anyone's self- identification. These are not simply terms, they describe human interaction and a dynamic between people of hstorical significance. And this dynamic among women has fought hard for inclusion for many years within the entire LGBTIQ umbrella.

[GretaGable]

I feel that each person should label themselves--or not label themselves--exactly as they see fit.

When I first realized my true sexuality, I was worried about not finding acceptance in the gay community because--frankly--I'm a femme attracted to other femmes. I love butches as friends, but there's just something about a pretty, feminine woman who is also strong and intelligent that just wildly attracts me.

Then I got to wondering just how butch or femme I really was. I wear makeup, I love flowers and flowery clothes, have hair past my shoulders, I have my apartment decorated in a distinctly Victorian style (or the Pepto Bismol pink motif, as some would call it), I stink at sports and have the mechanical skills of a tse tse fly. On the other hand I detest clothes shopping, am a fierce feminist in my political beliefs, have a tall, sturdy frame, don't go in for perms or manicures, and prefer comfy but colorful pantsuits over dresses.

Also, I wondered, should I really self-identify as lesbian? In my 20s I had some very passionate sexual and romantic relationships with men--all of whom had long hair and beautiful features.:) Even now there are certain male celebs--everyone from actors Emmanuel Delcour, Channing Tatum and the late, great Patrick Swayze to musicians like Andy Biersack and Ashley Purdy from the band Black Veil Brides--that make my heart and other parts go all aflutter. Really, though, the average guy on the street does nothing for me, at least not in a romantic or sexual way.

Ultimately, I realized that all of the time I spent trying to analyze and categorize myself could be better spent toward building my career and character, toward thinking of others instead of focusing on myself. What's most important to me is that I try at all times to be a loving, hardworking, strong and giving person; the rest just kind of falls into place.:)

:rrose:

Greta

[SaltyButch]

Well this is a discussion I have to weigh in on, I am not a fan of labels, yet I find as I discover more about myself certain ones are applicable. I no doubt will give away my age when I say that I identified as gay for many many years and if asked that is the first response I will give. Now that I've come into this dynamic I find that the gentlemanly behaviours I display are known as Old School Butch who knew.

Are these terms marginalizing people or merely helping those who have nothing but a nickname identify those who they may be interested in. On the other hand I find that terms that have survived the test of time may be considered antiquated but they served and continue to serve a purpose.

So I shall gladly raise my hand and say that I am a lesbian butch who is gay and who embraces the b/f dynamic and is Old Fashioned and Old School and dang proud of it.

On a site such as this a "label" is only an introduction, the person is who you want to get to know.

[Licious]

I am greatly enjoying this thread.... appreciate everyone weighing in. I see how important it is for us to accept each other for the wonderful variety we bring. I admit there was a time I was brainwashed to be stand offish towards those I didn't understand very well. Now I learn and educate myself, and let love guide the way.

[dykeumentary]

Lately I've been enjoying calling myself a homosexual. As in "the same"- I am a woman who is sexual with other women. How did that term become subversive again?
Also it's been fun being an older butch dyke. It makes me smile when I see 20something gender queers sneaking looks at me. Makes me want to get a black cloak and a scythe, and point to them with a bony finger outstretched and pronounce "Yes. I am the Ghost of Lesbian Yet To Come! These are the chains I have forged in this life!" (a la Dickens), Then cackle manically.
I just am tickled every day to be a butch, and thankful every day that Femmes exist who like butch women.