"Butch" and "Femme" - Truly Antiquated Terms or More Marginalization?

[Medusa]

There has been some discussion on the "other" site about whether or not the terms "Butch" and "Femme" are "antiquated" terms. Im curious as to what people think about this.
There were some thoughts about how the terms dont feel "accessible" to younger folks, folks of color, etc.


Thoughts?

[SuperFemme]

There has been some discussion on the "other" site about whether or not the terms "Butch" and "Femme" are "antiquated" terms. Im curious as to what people think about this.
There were some thoughts about how the terms dont feel "accessible" to younger folks, folks of color, etc.


Thoughts?

Is antiquated bad or does it honor our history?

I remember reading Stone Butch Blues for the first time. The tales of being arrested for wearing mens underwear at the club. In my mind it was/is mainstream Lesbians that pushed Butches and Femmes away and continue to do so today. Which gets sticky because we have many Lesbian Id'd folks. It's complicated. I identify as a Lesbian only in the most basic of terms.

I am a Femme. My community exists under the shade of the Butch/Femme umbrella and is compromised of endless genders. I honor them all. In honoring them all I also honor our history and the Butches/Femmes of yesteryear that slowly pushed us out of the shadows.

eta: i prefer to be thought of as "Adele". There may be several thousand other Adeles on the earth but no two of us are the same. Kind of like Butch/Femme. There are so very many of us. No two are the same.

[Jet]

Is antiquated bad or does it honor our history?

I remember reading Stone Butch Blues for the first time. The tales of being arrested for wearing mens underwear at the club. In my mind it was/is mainstream Lesbians that pushed Butches and Femmes away and continue to do so today. Which gets sticky because we have many Lesbian Id'd folks. It's complicated. I identify as a Lesbian only in the most basic of terms.

I am a Femme. My community exists under the shade of the Butch/Femme umbrella and is compromised of endless genders. I honor them all. In honoring them all I also honor our history and the Butches/Femmes of yesteryear that slowly pushed us out of the shadows.

Ditto. I think the other site is nitpicking and things like this can get to a point of intolerance—even dislike. But then, what else is new at a site that bans for life as though they stopped oil production, the Dow tumbled and a meteor hit the earth. Geezes, like I care. I'm a butch under the umbrella and even one step further as a guy getting ready to transition in the coming year. For now, butch serves me well as a description of how I ID in practical terms. I'm also old school and I keep things real simple without discourse. And one more thing, I'm attracted to femmes, and the term explains it, pure and simple. Just my .02

[Isadora]

I was rather insulted. As a femme who grew up with these terms being referred to as "antiquated" just thrills me. It smacks of ageism to me. Although I understand and accept that a new generation may not resonate with these terms, to dismiss them as old and tired is disrespectful of those who have lived with these terms for most of our queer lives, well all of My queer life.

Now, if it was worded that we have added to our vocabulary rather then having a new generation of terms that dismiss a whole generation of elderish b/f's, I would have not felt so written off.

As a partner, for going on 22 years, who is a POC, I asked hym what terms hy resonates with and hy said, "I am butch. I do not use other words (stud, aggressive, etc.) because it is not my generation. Accepting new terms is a good thing but not at the expense of dismissing others."

It was also interesting to me that to me it was never a "label" it was an expression of my inner self, a part of who I was growing up as a young femme.

So, I know the discussion was around a video about butch/aggressive/stud id's, what are the new terms for femme? I did not see ONE discussion on this aspect of our descriptors. Or did I miss something (heh, I am an OLD femme, I miss a lot of things!)?

It is interesting to me that both we as elders (over 55) and those who are young (under 30) must deal with the ageism that is inherent in our culture...so the elder are antiquated for our language and the youngers dismissed for theirs...when in reality there is nothing that says we can't celebrate them all.


*looks around for a helping hand down off my soapbox*

[Diva]

I know people get their panties/boxers in a knot over this for some reason.....and that's ok...I do love me some passionate people!

In my own world, I choose to honor whatever label anyone chooses for themselves. Why is that so difficult? Just as this planet and the human race and plants and animals have evolved, so do members of our chosen family.

If "butch/femme" is antiquated, that's ok. **I'M** antiquated!! ;) At the time, "femme" suited me when I first came out (20 years ago this year, btw). And, while "femme" is a pretty accurate description of me, I have evolved since then, too. I'm not sure You really care about all of MY labels... I have a few which are descriptors of who I am.

[SuperFemme]

I was rather insulted. As a femme who grew up with these terms being referred to as "antiquated" just thrills me. It smacks of ageism to me. Although I understand and accept that a new generation may not resonate with these terms, to dismiss them as old and tired is disrespectful of those who have lived with these terms for most of our queer lives, well all of My queer life.

Now, if it was worded that we have added to our vocabulary rather then having a new generation of terms that dismiss a whole generation of elderish b/f's, I would have not felt so written off.

As a partner, for going on 22 years, who is a POC, I asked hym what terms hy resonates with and hy said, "I am butch. I do not use other words (stud, aggressive, etc.) because it is not my generation. Accepting new terms is a good thing but not at the expense of dismissing others."

It was also interesting to me that to me it was never a "label" it was an expression of my inner self, a part of who I was growing up as a young femme.

So, I know the discussion was around a video about butch/aggressive/stud id's, what are the new terms for femme? I did not see ONE discussion on this aspect of our descriptors. Or did I miss something (heh, I am an OLD femme, I miss a lot of things!)?

It is interesting to me that both we as elders (over 55) and those who are young (under 30) must deal with the ageism that is inherent in our culture...so the elder are antiquated for our language and the youngers dismissed for theirs...when in reality there is nothing that says we can't celebrate them all.


Great post Isadora. Perhaps the person making the point about masculine being placed in higher regard than the feminine might have a point.

Also interesting to note that many feel Femme is a gender. Butch too. How on earth can a gender be antiquated? I mean, if we are going to do that let's do away with Male/Female first!

[Blue_Daddy-O]

I know people get their panties/boxers in a knot over this for some reason.....and that's ok...I do love me some passionate people!

In my own world, I choose to honor whatever label anyone chooses for themselves. Why is that so difficult? Just as this planet and the human race and plants and animals have evolved, so do members of our chosen family.

If "butch/femme" is antiquated, that's ok. **I'M** antiquated!! ;) At the time, "femme" suited me when I first came out (20 years ago this year, btw). And, while "femme" is a pretty accurate description of me, I have evolved since then, too. I'm not sure You really care about all of MY labels... I have a few which are descriptors of who I am.


Diva... HAPPY GAY BIRTHDAY ...this is my 20th year of being Gay too!!!

I was rather insulted. As a femme who grew up with these terms being referred to as "antiquated" just thrills me. It smacks of ageism to me. Although I understand and accept that a new generation may not resonate with these terms, to dismiss them as old and tired is disrespectful of those who have lived with these terms for most of our queer lives, well all of My queer life.

Now, if it was worded that we have added to our vocabulary rather then having a new generation of terms that dismiss a whole generation of elderish b/f's, I would have not felt so written off.

As a partner, for going on 22 years, who is a POC, I asked hym what terms hy resonates with and hy said, "I am butch. I do not use other words (stud, aggressive, etc.) because it is not my generation. Accepting new terms is a good thing but not at the expense of dismissing others."

It was also interesting to me that to me it was never a "label" it was an expression of my inner self, a part of who I was growing up as a young femme.

So, I know the discussion was around a video about butch/aggressive/stud id's, what are the new terms for femme? I did not see ONE discussion on this aspect of our descriptors. Or did I miss something (heh, I am an OLD femme, I miss a lot of things!)?

It is interesting to me that both we as elders (over 55) and those who are young (under 30) must deal with the ageism that is inherent in our culture...so the elder are antiquated for our language and the youngers dismissed for theirs...when in reality there is nothing that says we can't celebrate them all.


*looks around for a helping hand down off my soapbox*


Isadora, my helping hand extended as you step down off your soapbox.... well said!

[Linus]

So, I know the discussion was around a video about butch/aggressive/stud id's, what are the new terms for femme?

A question for self-clarification: I thought that Aggressive/Stud IDs were POC terms/references (albeit it newer)?

And I don't think they are antiquated any more than human, man, woman, etc. are. I think they are still valid terms today and just as important as they were previously. I think it is interesting that these are not the only terms and that the spectrum of who we can love based on a variety of things that that person brings to the table (not just gender ID but their whole proverbial alphabet) is a wonderful thing.

I do believe, however, that we have to be careful not to minimize the importance of the "labels" and yet, not strictly define someone by their labels. It is a balancing act that we often forget, IMO.

[Jett]

I must have totally missed something which wouldn't be anything new, could someone pls point me (by # what-ever)to the post that said they were "antiquated"?

[Isadora]

A question for self-clarification: I thought that Aggressive/Stud IDs were POC terms/references (albeit it newer)?

And I don't think they are antiquated any more than human, man, woman, etc. are. I think they are still valid terms today and just as important as they were previously. I think it is interesting that these are not the only terms and that the spectrum of who we can love based on a variety of things that that person brings to the table (not just gender ID but their whole proverbial alphabet) is a wonderful thing.

I do believe, however, that we have to be careful not to minimize the importance of the "labels" and yet, not strictly define someone by their labels. It is a balancing act that we often forget, IMO.

I asked Schon about these terms and Schon said they were never terms used in hys community growing up. Some of this may be terms related to cultural geography. As Schon says, growing up in Minneapolis as a young black butch in the 80's could be totally different for someone growing up in New York. Like Diva pointed out we are evolutionary and our descriptors change as we change...which is a very good thing.:bunchflowers:

Hard to believe I have been out for OMG almost 35 years. Almost 40 if I count coming out at 16 and then stepping back in for a few years!:eek:

I think we, on the most part, are great walkers of the balance beam of life.

[Selenay]

Yes, they are dying terms.

Sorry, y'all.

-The 20 Year Old *




N.B. This is just MY experience as a New York lesbian who has been out for 7 years, and "femme" for three of those years. My experiences do not serve as a model for all of the queer world, but are just one window into the New York youth scene.

[Isadora]

Isadora, my helping hand extended as you step down off your soapbox.... well said!

Thank you!

[SuperFemme]

I think that it IS important to make room under our "Umbrella" for POC identities.
Which just goes back to the fact of how very important it is to respect ALL identities.

I think it bothers me to see inclusion being couched in exclusion. One thing doesn't need to be pushed out to make room. We can all open our arms wide to do that. When I was growing up I was mentored by older Butches/Femmes.
Now it is my term to mentor. If we shelve Butch/Femme as antiquated where does that leave us?

[Diva]

Yes, they are dying terms.

Sorry, y'all.

-The 20 Year Old *




N.B. This is just MY experience as a New York lesbian who has been out for 7 years, and "femme" for three of those years. My experiences do not serve as a model for all of the queer world, but are just one window into the New York youth scene.


OMG this just made me giggle.......

It's not dead yet because I am still alive........and THEN, when I am dead, You can personally try and pry my Femme Papers out of my cold, dead, finely manicured fingers.........


......but not until then, little whippersnapper! ;) <~ ~ I'm WINKING, everyone!

[Mister Bent]

Yes, they are dying terms.

Sorry, y'all.

-The 20 Year Old *




N.B. This is just MY experience as a New York lesbian who has been out for 7 years, and "femme" for three of those years. My experiences do not serve as a model for all of the queer world, but are just one window into the New York youth scene.


Right. The hubris of the "youth scene" (not speaking to you directly, Selenay - merely borrowing your term). What they determine in the now, is the forever shall be.

Thankfully, that's not true.

For if that were true, we would no longer listen to classical music or value certain forms of art.

Because there is nothing new under the sun, and everything old becomes new again, it's safe to assume that just because one generation doesn't use or relate to certain terms that they will "die." They may be out of mode for a certain age group, but that hardly heralds death.

New York is ahead of the curve in most things, additionally there is enormous racial diversity so POC terms for identity are more likely to be adopted and heard. But that while young queers in the 5 boroughs (and parts of Jersey, yo) might not be identifying as butch or femme, there is the great American hinterland still to consider. I doubt there will be sweeping change in which the terms butch and femme cease to exist. I believe, as SuperFemme stated, that there is room for all.

If, by process of cultural evolution butch and femme get put on the shelf (until they make a comeback with the third wave of hippie fashion), I would hope that at least it is done with respect to the space they carved to make way for that evolution, and the relative freedom young queers in America experience.

I think these explorations and deconstructions are part of the process of our queer evolution, but to be dismissive of one's history and those who came before is short-sighted and arrogant.

Still, I disbelieve in the demise. If the term doesn't fit, don't wear it.

[Bit]

Yes, they are dying terms.

Sorry, y'all.

-The 20 Year Old *

How interesting! What are they being replaced with? Have people come up with words that are more inclusive, that speak to the spectrum of being Butch or of being Femme?

[Arwen]

I was rather insulted. As a femme who grew up with these terms being referred to as "antiquated" just thrills me. It smacks of ageism to me. Although I understand and accept that a new generation may not resonate with these terms, to dismiss them as old and tired is disrespectful of those who have lived with these terms for most of our queer lives, well all of My queer life.

Now, if it was worded that we have added to our vocabulary rather then having a new generation of terms that dismiss a whole generation of elderish b/f's, I would have not felt so written off.

As a partner, for going on 22 years, who is a POC, I asked hym what terms hy resonates with and hy said, "I am butch. I do not use other words (stud, aggressive, etc.) because it is not my generation. Accepting new terms is a good thing but not at the expense of dismissing others."


This is a great response from Schon. "Not at the expense of dismissing others." Thing is...no one gets to tell me what is a "dying" or "antiquated" term. If I'm still using it then it sure as heck isn't dying.

I think the real issue here is can we all learn to accept one another as we wish to be accepted?

If I tell you I am a femme, you do not have the right to tell me that is not a "good" word. It seems so aggressively judgmental to me.

I won't tell a self-identified stud that hy's just a butch of color. How dismissive of me to not honor what hy wants to call hymself.

So for the record (and in my 3oth year of being gay with a few years out for heterosexuality in my 30's..lol), I'm a queer femme. You can be whatever you want to be but never dare to define me for me. You do not have that right.

[SuperFemme]

I think we should listen to what Sel has to say with an open mind. Let's respect HER identity and maybe learn something?

[HumV4me]

Interseting read... Kinda got a lil scerred there for a moment though... But I got over it... with a quickness.

I've gone back east and into the hill where the terms / labels: butch and Femme, aren't commonly used. This shocked me and I was (only for a second) displaced.

As you can tell I get over things easily though and found their rythem and flow of words and meanings... and guess what I learned in my ol age... They had the same (but different in their own way) fundamentals as that which I know and understand.

[Selenay]

Right. The hubris of the "youth scene" (not speaking to you directly, Selenay - merely borrowing your term). What they determine in the now, is the forever shall be.

Thankfully, that's not true.

For if that were true, we would no longer listen to classical music or value certain forms of art.

Because there is nothing new under the sun, and everything old becomes new again, it's safe to assume that just because one generation doesn't use or relate to certain terms that they will "die." They may be out of mode for a certain age group, but that hardly heralds death.

New York is ahead of the curve in most things, additionally there is enormous racial diversity so POC terms for identity are more likely to be adopted and heard. But that while young queers in the 5 boroughs (and parts of Jersey, yo) might not be identifying as butch or femme, there is the great American hinterland still to consider. I doubt there will be sweeping change in which the terms butch and femme cease to exist. I believe, as SuperFemme stated, that there is room for all.

If, by process of cultural evolution butch and femme get put on the shelf (until they make a comeback with the third wave of hippie fashion), I would hope that at least it is done with respect to the space they carved to make way for that evolution, and the relative freedom young queers in America experience.

I think these explorations and deconstructions are part of the process of our queer evolution, but to be dismissive of one's history and those who came before is short-sighted and arrogant.

Still, I disbelieve in the demise. If the term doesn't fit, don't wear it.




You know, we really don't listen to certain types of music. I haven't really heard baroque music on z100 recently. . . And I can't really tell you the last time I heard a friend tell me that they were going to go study their hurdy gurdy or harpsichord. They aren't extinct, no, but they are for all cultural purposes dead.

There is room for all, of course, but if the youth does not embrace a term, it will die. Just like with language, or clothing, or music, it needs a base to create it and a youth to continue the tradition. Or are we going to go back to Latin now?

I never said that I, or anyone else, doesn't respect the path that has been paved, but I'm willing to bet that if you ask 80% of the people on my extremely queer college (and by extremely queer, I mean the only state university in New York that offers a G/L Studies major, which coincides with the GLBTU, trans-action, drag queen fall ball, ad nauseam...) what the butch/femme dynamic is, they wouldn't have any idea.


Perhaps I'll start a survey and get back to you with more accurate numbers. . . I'll make sure I include on that survey "Stonewall" to find out who actually knows what stonewall is, what its significance was, and if they've been there.

[SuperFemme]

You know, we really don't listen to certain types of music. I haven't really heard baroque music on z100 recently. . . And I can't really tell you the last time I heard a friend tell me that they were going to go study their hurdy gurdy or harpsichord. They aren't extinct, no, but they are for all cultural purposes dead.

There is room for all, of course, but if the youth does not embrace a term, it will die. Just like with language, or clothing, or music, it needs a base to create it and a youth to continue the tradition. Or are we going to go back to Latin now?

I never said that I, or anyone else, doesn't respect the path that has been paved, but I'm willing to bet that if you ask 80% of the people on my extremely queer college (and by extremely queer, I mean the only state university in New York that offers a G/L Studies major, which coincides with the GLBTU, trans-action, drag queen fall ball, ad nauseam...) what the butch/femme dynamic is, they wouldn't have any idea.


Perhaps I'll start a survey and get back to you with more accurate numbers. . .




So do you think young people are more identifying with Queer and GenderQueer these days? That has been my experience.

[Diva]

You know, we really don't listen to certain types of music. I haven't really heard baroque music on z100 recently. . . And I can't really tell you the last time I heard a friend tell me that they were going to go study their hurdy gurdy or harpsichord. They aren't extinct, no, but they are for all cultural purposes dead.

There is room for all, of course, but if the youth does not embrace a term, it will die. Just like with language, or clothing, or music, it needs a base to create it and a youth to continue the tradition. Or are we going to go back to Latin now?

I never said that I, or anyone else, doesn't respect the path that has been paved, but I'm willing to bet that if you ask 80% of the people on my extremely queer college (and by extremely queer, I mean the only state university in New York that offers a G/L Studies major, which coincides with the GLBTU, trans-action, drag queen fall ball, ad nauseam...) what the butch/femme dynamic is, they wouldn't have any idea.


Perhaps I'll start a survey and get back to you with more accurate numbers. . . I'll make sure I include on that survey "Stonewall" to find out who actually knows what stonewall is, what its significance was, and if they've been there.





I see Your point, Selly, but perhaps we could use a different word other than "dead". That seems so final.

And, while I'm not rushing out the door to my hurdy~gurdy lesson, I can tell You that it is part of history. I can't imagine that history will die. The harpsichord is the direct predecessor to the pianoforte. And while the pianoforte was the "new and improved" harpsichord, by no means did it replace it.

Is it as common as the piano (which, btw, pianoforte ~ which means soft/loud in Italian and later 'evolved' to just the piano)? No. But it is not ~ at least not in the music world ~ dead.

Antiquated <smile> maybe. But not dead. I hope You see the parallel here....truly, I didn't mean to go off on a music history lesson.....but if you could turn to page 243 in Your textbook, we'll get started.....:canoworms: ;)

[Selenay]

How interesting! What are they being replaced with? Have people come up with words that are more inclusive, that speak to the spectrum of being Butch or of being Femme?

So do you think young people are more identifying with Queer and GenderQueer these days? That has been my experience.

Yes, I see much more of a queer burst than a binary experience. Lots of people who see themselves as androgynous (a lot of them look really butch to me :2butch: but that doesn't matter, if they don't claim the monkier), lots of people who are genderqueer, lots of people who start off as genderqueer or androgynous, go through the stages, and come out the other side as something totally different.

[Bit]

Ooops, Selly, I'm sorry, didn't know you were still posting... *reads*


Ohhhhhhhhhhhh I see. *smiles* That's what happened the first time when the Feminist Wave hit Lesbiana, yanno? People went to androgynous. It didn't last, because it didn't fit us all.

The terms Butch and Femme will be here when the next generation needs them, I think.

[SuperFemme]

Yes, I see much more of a queer burst than a binary experience. Lots of people who see themselves as androgynous (a lot of them look really butch to me :2butch: but that doesn't matter, if they don't claim the monkier), lots of people who are genderqueer, lots of people who start off as genderqueer or androgynous, go through the stages, and come out the other side as something totally different.


I wonder how much of that is cultural? As many of us are parenting I wonder how much our kids soak up. I have a 16 year old Femme who is in the habit of stuffing everyone into a butch/femme box because her role models are as such. It seems we have passed this world view on to her. Which is fine. Until it's not.

[Selenay]

I see Your point, Selly, but perhaps we could use a different word other than "dead". That seems so final.

And, while I'm not rushing out the door to my hurdy~gurdy lesson, I can tell You that it is part of history. I can't imagine that history will die. The harpsichord is the direct predecessor to the pianoforte. And while the pianoforte was the "new and improved" harpsichord, by no means did it replace it.

Is it as common as the piano (which, btw, pianoforte ~ which means soft/loud in Italian and later 'evolved' to just the piano)? No. But it is not ~ at least not in the music world ~ dead.

Antiquated <smile> maybe. But not dead. I hope You see the parallel here....truly, I didn't mean to go off on a music history lesson.....but if you could turn to page 243 in Your textbook, we'll get started.....:canoworms: ;)


Dead is very final, but I think that is is accurate. Yes, the harpsichord became the piano and the spinet and the (oh lord it's been a long time since I thought about this. . .) ottavano, right?. . . but the harpsichord isn't in use with the mass culture. Of course, it's not dead in the music world, it never will be (I hope) but if it's out of the hands of the many, that is, to me, dead.

It evolves, it changes, it becomes something completely different. . . But when you unwrap it, you can still see the roots there, plain as day. Butch and femme will never disappear, it's not an atlantis, but I don't think that it will maintain itself forever in the current incarnation.

Music always was one of my favorite subjects. . .

[Words]

Butch and femme will never disappear, it's not an atlantis, but I don't think that it will maintain itself forever in the current incarnation.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by ''the current incarnation'' Selenay. Could you clarify please? Thanks.

Words

[Gemme]

Dead, dying, on life support or not, I like the terms butch and femme. They feel good in my mouth. They feel right. For me. For someone else, even if they look and act very much like I do, maybe not so much. As Arwen and some others touched on, you can only define yourself and the terms for yourself. Let others define themselves and the terms appropriate for them.

Gemme-Prefers 'on vacation' to dead, dying or life support

[Mister Bent]

You know, we really don't listen to certain types of music. I haven't really heard baroque music on z100 recently. . . And I can't really tell you the last time I heard a friend tell me that they were going to go study their hurdy gurdy or harpsichord. They aren't extinct, no, but they are for all cultural purposes dead.

There is room for all, of course, but if the youth does not embrace a term, it will die. Just like with language, or clothing, or music, it needs a base to create it and a youth to continue the tradition. Or are we going to go back to Latin now?

I never said that I, or anyone else, doesn't respect the path that has been paved, but I'm willing to bet that if you ask 80% of the people on my extremely queer college (and by extremely queer, I mean the only state university in New York that offers a G/L Studies major, which coincides with the GLBTU, trans-action, drag queen fall ball, ad nauseam...) what the butch/femme dynamic is, they wouldn't have any idea.




While you may not hear harpsichord music on z100, there is still music being composed for the harpsichord, and there are, like um, a bazillion more radio stations (and satellite!) than z100.

Perhaps it's true 80% of the people at an "extremely queer" school that offers G/L studies as a major don't know what the butch/femme dynamic is. I would expect that to probably be true just about anywhere. What would be pathetic, however, is if those numbers were reflected in said G/L program. You can't study a thing without knowing its history.

It seems unlikely to me that things have changed so much in the past year since I moved from New York. When I spoke to a group of high school students in Manhattan about gender identity, though they were every single one of them POC, at least half knew the terms butch and femme, and of course, now all of them know it, thanks to me. (*pat pat*)

Once again, I disbelieve that "if the youth doesn't embrace a term it will die." That statement is myopic, at best. Why do so many terms and fashions become reborn? Why do ancient religions, art and musical forms survive? In part because the young don't exist in a void, We're still here, telling our stories, writing them down, passing them on. Our youth are fundamental to change and growth, but they also grab hold of a thing, sometimes a piece of the past, an out dated fashion, and make it new again.

I welcome whatever new language comes into use, but I don't think it will be at the exclusion of "old" terms for identity. No, we're not going to start speaking Latin, but consider how many of our languages would be different, or non-existent if not for Latin.

These terms come about because they signify who we are - that's not going to change. Historically, lot of young queers follow the androgynous route as they "find" themselves (just because they ID as "genderqueer" today, doesn't mean they always will). Other terms may come about to speak to evolved identities, but that doesn't herald the erasure of butch and femme.

[Selenay]

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by ''the current incarnation'' Selenay. Could you clarify please? Thanks.

Words


The current incarnation would be butch and femme.

I think that these identities will evolve, and help to shape something else (perhaps andro, perhaps genderqueer, perhaps new wave femme.) I don't think that they will be wiped off the face of the queer planet, but will change and evolve and become something completely different than they are now: a new incarnation.


Hope that helped.

[tmbyfem]

Butch/femme antiquated?? Maybe to some, but I prefer the term "classic".

Any reading of queer/lesbian history will show that the butch/femme dynamic has been around long before those specifc words were attached to it. The "cultural" feminists in the 70's declared it "dead" and yet B/F dynamics had a resurgance in the 80's and 90's.

Connecting with that energy and history was like a second coming out for me. First I came out as a lesbian, then a few years later as femme. Call it whatever you wish but for me, personally, to have my ID declared "dead" is rather dismissive of all those who went before us and seems ignorant of the past that brought us here to this point in time.

Diva... HAPPY GAY BIRTHDAY ...this is my 20th year of being Gay too!!!

Hey!! It'll be my 20th anniversary next year too!! Time for some cake!!

[QueenofQueens]

Listen to Shirley and learn...

YouTube- Propellerheads - History Repeating (1997) â–ºSTEREOâ—„

Be who you are, regardless of fashion's edict or academia's clarion cry.

[Just_G]

Like the avacado appliances from the 70's that are coming back again, so will the terms butch and femme some day after they have been unused for a while.

I know my "label" changes somewhat depending on who I am in the company of. When in Dallas with my buddies down there, they consider me a Stud. When around my andro friends here in KC, I am a lesbian....of which I prefer Queer, and when I am around the likes of all you hooligans ;), I am Butch. My very favorite way to identify. It is what I am, it is who I am, and it is what my tattoo says. :winky:

I really think that the terms Butch and Femme will never be dead. Like Diva said, I will take those terms to my grave too, and I don't plan on going anywhere any time soon! :)

p.s. Jack, love your tool analogy....

[PapaC]

So when do I get to declare all just a fad? or better it...

it's just a phase

[Jet]

I'm in my 49th year of "cognizant" queer-dom..lol....I knew at four I was different and felt like a boy at five. Believe it or not, my nickname as a child was "Butch" given to me by mom of all people. I'll never change that or the fact that I'm attracted to femmes and all the beauty which that implies for me.

[WolfyOne]

This is a wonderful thread and it's been quite interesting reading everyones take on this subject.

[Apocalipstic]

I have been out for 25 years.

Butch and Femme as terms were completely out of style in my 20's and I lost many friends because I insisted on looking girly. Being andro was popular.

Butch Femme as terms were completely out of style though my 30's. Being andro was popular. I lost friends for dating BullDykes.

Around the time I turned 40, there were 2 or 3 years it was uber cool to be Butch or Femme...Fabulous!

Now, again...being Butch and Femme is out and I am back to being a failure as a Lesbian.

Ehhhhh.

I did try to "andro it up" a few times when I was younger. I still looked pretty damn girly.

I am fine with whatever terms anyone uses, I just have not noticed new terms for Femmes? Are we passé?

[Jet]

I have been out for 25 years.

Butch and Femme as terms were completely out of style in my 20's and I lost many friends because I insisted on looking girly. Being andro was popular.

Butch Femme as terms were completely out of style though my 30's. Being andro was popular. I lost friends for dating BullDykes.

Around the time I turned 40, there were 2 or 3 years it was uber cool to be Butch or Femme...Fabulous!

Now, again...being Butch and Femme is out and I am back to being a failure as a Lesbian.

Ehhhhh.

I did try to "andro it up" a few times when I was younger. I still looked pretty damn girly.

I am fine with whatever terms anyone uses, I just have not noticed new terms for Femmes? Are we passé?


too funny...too cute

I swear of this continues I'm going to be a gay man when I transition with crush on Robert Downy Jr.

[friskyfemme]

I agree with Mr. ent and Diva. The terms butch, femme are identifiable as are
bi, tg, lesbian, straight, gay, queer, hetrosexual, homosexual, and many others. It istrue that someone at sometime coined each of these terms to explain how one viewed, idenitfied, and/or best described oneself and/or someone else. Just because someone doesn't id with the term doesn't mean that it isn't valid or is outdated. This discussion isn't a new one. As us older ones know. However, the bottom line is this RESPECT of others. If there is now an identity that better defines ME, I will be the One who coins it. I am then, now and always a 'Stonefemme'.

[Lynn]

Yes, I see much more of a queer burst than a binary experience. Lots of people who see themselves as androgynous (a lot of them look really butch to me :2butch: but that doesn't matter, if they don't claim the monkier), lots of people who are genderqueer, lots of people who start off as genderqueer or androgynous, go through the stages, and come out the other side as something totally different.


Do you feel these observations apply across the board, or mainly to youth who are coming of age in an academic setting? I find that my own peers had very different experiences of themselves and their identities depending on whether or not they went to college.

[Apocalipstic]

Do you feel these observations apply across the board, or mainly to youth who are coming of age in an academic setting? I find that my own peers had very different experiences of themselves and their identities depending on whether or not they went to college.

And if they live un non-urban settings or non-coastal settings.

Students at Walter State in East Tennessee are likely to have a different experience than universities in NYC or San Francisco.

Still, I have to say that Butch and Femme as IDs have only been popular for maybe 3 years since the 70's.

Has that detered me? Nah.

I still love BullDykes.

and

Chocolate :chocolate:

[Darth Denkay]

Butch and Femme aren't going anywhere. They started around the 1940s, and although they had to shift out of sight during the feminist movement, they certainly didn't go away. We've got young members on this site and the other who embrace butch and femme. As time goes on we are developing more gender descriptors, so maybe less folks are ascribing to butch or femme, but they certainly aren't going away. Mark my words...

[Arwen]

This is a fascinating discussion.

For me, I use words that suit me. I always try to honor what another person wants to be called.

I think G pointed it out best about his experiences in different groups--and how that fits him depending on where he is.

Makes me think of Albert from the Birdcage when he says, "I never know where we are until I hear our name pronounced."

For really personal reasons, I have not identified as a lesbian for several years. In fact, it makes me downright uncomfortable "in house" but that is how folks know me outside of the queer community. To them (mostly straight) calling me queer or a dyke bothers them. So to them, I'm a lesbian.

I think the point that youth creates our language has legs but I also know that language changes, evolves, twists back on itself. Are good things still "phat" and "sick" or are they "swell" and "keen"?

Why do we need alternative words for Butch and Femme unless someone is uncomfortable or perhaps embarrassed by the appellation? I totally get Stud as a term but Aggressive makes me feel a bit uneasy simply because of how I use that word. And, as a few have pointed out...is it only Butch that is getting refined/redefined?:mohawk:

[MsMerrick]

I must have totally missed something which wouldn't be anything new, could someone pls point me (by # what-ever)to the post that said they were "antiquated"?

Yeah what Met said...... ( and I notice was ignored... )

[Mister Bent]

Yeah what Met said...... ( and I notice was ignored... )

Ignored seems to suggest it was intentional, and I'm uncertain of the relevance of that. Is there some? Relevance, that is? I'm simply trying to determine what it is you're trying to contribute here.

Regardless of what was said elsewhere, this is a compelling thread here.

[Diva]

As SF has said early on, I just want to add my :2cents: and say a big "Thank You" to Selly for sticking her neck out and jumping into this conversation.

I hold You way up for that, Selly, and commend You.

If I'm putting words in Your mouth here, Sel, correct me, please, ;) but I don't think ~ as even this discussion is evolving ~ she is pointing to individuals and telling us we can't use words which are comfortable to us......perhaps this is her observation within the group of folks with whom she is most involved....or perhaps what's hip (sorry...that's a 60's word which has evolved, I beleve ;) )in today's Youth Culture.

I used to refer to my dear, late Father as 'being set in his ways'.....I guess some of us are, too......that can be ok. :bunchflowers:

[BullDog]

I'm confused as well. Is this discussion in reference to Q's video? If so I didn't see anything about being antiquated. Something else in particular? The concept in general?

Just wondering, cuz I loved the video and I am not sure I am understanding this conversation.

[Medusa]

Yeah what Met said...... ( and I notice was ignored... )

Some days I SWEAR I check to see if its a full moon before I post.

Ok, I used "antiquated" as a way to parse the term "OLD" into what I was feeling was being said. I should have been more clear. My bad.

The verbatim, word-for-word was "Old Terms".

and just as a sidenote: whether you were talking to me or not about something being "ignored", I have been up since 6am cleaning house and have been on and off of this site all day answering emails, reported posts, and private messages, so if something is asked or said and I dont respond or reply, its prrrrooooobbbbbaabbbbblllyyyy because I just didnt see it.

[Diva]

There has been some discussion on the "other" site about whether or not the terms "Butch" and "Femme" are "antiquated" terms. Im curious as to what people think about this.
There were some thoughts about how the terms dont feel "accessible" to younger folks, folks of color, etc.


Thoughts?


Bulldog, this is the OP, and I'm not seeing anywhere that there is a video reference here. Only until Isadora's post (#4) was there any mention of a video.

I didn't feel as though this thread was difficult to follow at all. It's a calm, non~drama~filled civil conversation.

[Diva]

Some days I SWEAR I check to see if its a full moon before I post.

Ok, I used "antiquated" as a way to parse the term "OLD" into what I was feeling was being said. I should have been more clear. My bad.

The verbatim, word-for-word was "Old Terms".

and just as a sidenote: whether you were talking to me or not about something being "ignored", I have been up since 6am cleaning house and have been on and off of this site all day answering emails, reported posts, and private messages, so if something is asked or said and I dont respond or reply, its prrrrooooobbbbbaabbbbblllyyyy because I just didnt see it.

I don't think it was directed toward You....NONE of us responded to it. But then, while I have responded to a couple or 3, I haven't responded to everyone who's posted here.

And I got it, too, that, when You put the term in "quotes", that COULD have been interpreted as Your word......

[BullDog]

I'm just trying to follow the conversation.

[Medusa]

The holiday cheer must just be overwhelming folks today :hangloose:

I just wanted to say too that when I read the thread over there about "old terms in a new era", I was hearing the "old" part in conjunction with "new era" as in, "out with the old, in with the new" or "old-fashioned" or "outdated" (which is the definition of "antiquated").

It's my read of it, I own it :)

[Unndunn]

You know, we really don't listen to certain types of music. I haven't really heard baroque music on z100 recently. . . And I can't really tell you the last time I heard a friend tell me that they were going to go study their hurdy gurdy or harpsichord. They aren't extinct, no, but they are for all cultural purposes dead.

There is room for all, of course, but if the youth does not embrace a term, it will die. Just like with language, or clothing, or music, it needs a base to create it and a youth to continue the tradition. Or are we going to go back to Latin now?

I never said that I, or anyone else, doesn't respect the path that has been paved, but I'm willing to bet that if you ask 80% of the people on my extremely queer college (and by extremely queer, I mean the only state university in New York that offers a G/L Studies major, which coincides with the GLBTU, trans-action, drag queen fall ball, ad nauseam...) what the butch/femme dynamic is, they wouldn't have any idea.


Perhaps I'll start a survey and get back to you with more accurate numbers. . . I'll make sure I include on that survey "Stonewall" to find out who actually knows what stonewall is, what its significance was, and if they've been there.




I think it's natural to have this reaction as a young person. Everything feels new. When you hit 30 or even 40+ (gasp!) you start to see that things come in cycles. Music and clothing are just a few examples. In 10 years there will be another generation of young adults telling you that your culture is dead. Five years after that they'll all be wearing it/listening to it and calling it retro. You're right that you probably won't hear baroque music on Z100 but if you try moving your dial you'll find it there.

[Diva]

The holiday cheer must just be overwhelming folks today :hangloose:

I just wanted to say too that when I read the thread over there about "old terms in a new era", I was hearing the "old" part in conjunction with "new era" as in, "out with the old, in with the new" or "old-fashioned" or "outdated" (which is the definition of "antiquated").

It's my read of it, I own it :)


No, no....I think we all did.....and like all good and wonderful things, it has evolved.

:D

[Unndunn]

The holiday cheer must just be overwhelming folks today :hangloose:

I just wanted to say too that when I read the thread over there about "old terms in a new era", I was hearing the "old" part in conjunction with "new era" as in, "out with the old, in with the new" or "old-fashioned" or "outdated" (which is the definition of "antiquated").
It's my read of it, I own it :)

that's how I read it too. I'm butch and always will be. It doesn't matter what anyone else calls themselves.

[julieisafemme]

I JUST learned about the term femme last year and that I was one. Luckily I am in my 40s so I am ok with not being part of the hip youth culture of today. I find that I am antiquated in many ways. I'm ok with that.

[MsMerrick]

Ignored seems to suggest it was intentional, and I'm uncertain of the relevance of that. Is there some? Relevance, that is? I'm simply trying to determine what it is you're trying to contribute here.

Regardless of what was said elsewhere, this is a compelling thread here.

Based on a false presumption that some Thread, on another site, suggested that Butch & Femme, are antiquated terms.
I ma not big on trashing through false inference.

[MsMerrick]

Some days I SWEAR I check to see if its a full moon before I post.

Ok, I used "antiquated" as a way to parse the term "OLD" into what I was feeling was being said. I should have been more clear. My bad.

The verbatim, word-for-word was "Old Terms".

and just as a sidenote: whether you were talking to me or not about something being "ignored", I have been up since 6am cleaning house and have been on and off of this site all day answering emails, reported posts, and private messages, so if something is asked or said and I dont respond or reply, its prrrrooooobbbbbaabbbbblllyyyy because I just didnt see it.

You referenced Some Thread, on Some Other site.
I presume BF.com
That was not what was said, on BF.com, using that word or any other word
I have no issue with some general Thread, discussing whether or not Butch & Femme, are antiquated Terms, though why one would think they were, I don't know.
I do object to trashing of and falsely representing, the "other" site.
Call me old fashioned and antiquated, but I object to falsehoods.

[MsMerrick]

I'm confused as well. Is this discussion in reference to Q's video? If so I didn't see anything about being antiquated. Something else in particular? The concept in general?

Just wondering, cuz I loved the video and I am not sure I am understanding this conversation.

Yes it is.

[NotAnAverageGuy]

can someone put into laymans terms what antiquated means so I can understand, when I looked it up it confused me, I ain't the smartest ya know!!!!

[MsMerrick]

I don't think it was directed toward You....NONE of us responded to it. But then, while I have responded to a couple or 3, I haven't responded to everyone who's posted here.

...





You would be correct, as far as I was concerned, it was directed at everyone...

[SuperFemme]

I haven't watched the video.

I read "old terms" as out of date, antiquated and well, old.

I guess perception is very individualized and it was my assumption that this was a *new/different* conversation based on an individuals perception.

[Medusa]

Based on a false presumption that some Thread, on another site, suggested that Butch & Femme, are antiquated terms.
I ma not big on trashing through false inference.

Merrick,

I honestly cannot understand why you would insist that I am intentionally "trashing" or "falsely representing" a thread on the other site when I have clearly explained that my read of those terms translated to what I wrote. I was going to ask if you missed my posts where I explained myself but it seems that you didnt, this gives me even more pause because you are still insisting that I am trashing by falsely representing here? I havent heard "Liar, Liar, pants on fire" in a while but I read it reallllll well.

Just a refresher: When I read the title of the thread "Old Terms in a New Age", I heard "old" juxtaposed with "new age" as in "outdated", "antiquated".
I promise you there was no nefarious intent when I parsed "old" into "antiquated" when I am talking about this issue.

I asked a question. That is not trashing a site or a thread, no matter how many times its said. This was my way of trying to have a new conversation that had nothing to do with the video that was posted there (however great it was!). I merely wanted people's read on how the terms Butch or Femme might be seen as antiquated/old and their thoughts on that. THAT was my thought process, nothing more.

a

[Medusa]

can someone put into laymans terms what antiquated means so I can understand, when I looked it up it confused me, I ain't the smartest ya know!!!!

I was reading "antiquated" as "old" or "out of date"

[NotAnAverageGuy]

I was reading "antiquated" as "old" or "out of date"

Ty Medusa

I don't see them as old or outdated,just as terms we use to describe ourselves. There are the other variations of butch and femme, like Stone Butch, Stone Femme, etc but to me those are still adjectives.

[BullDog]

Yes, sorry Medusa for my initial confusion. I wasn't questioning your motives. To me this conversation is a very different topic than the video or other conversation, that was why I was initially confused. But totally get you used it as a jumping off point to start a conversation.

Also seems some confusion on the other site. Stud is not a new term used by a younger generation. It's been around for quite some time.

Anyway, if anyone wants to see Q's video it is very cool. Here is the link to her site:

http://q-roc.tv

The video is at the top of page: Excuse Me Sir: Gender Identity

To me the video is about Studs talking about breaking down gender stereotypes.

EDIT: There is actually more than one video. The one I saw before was part 2 on Stereotypes. Part 3 is at top of page now. Anyway, cool beans more videos for me to watch.

[Cyclopea]

Yes, sorry Medusa for my initial confusion. I wasn't questioning your motives. To me this conversation is a very different topic than the video or other conversation, that was why I was initially confused. But totally get you used it as a jumping off point to start a conversation.

Also seems some confusion on the other site. Stud is not a new term used by a younger generation. It's been around for quite some time.

Anyway, if anyone wants to see Q's video it is very cool. Here is the link to her site:

http://q-roc.tv

The video is at the top of page: Excuse Me Sir: Gender Identity

To me the video is about Studs talking about breaking down gender stereotypes.

I agree Stud is not a new term and has been used since at least the 70s.
It is also not a term specific to POC.
Love the video!

[Kosmo]

Right. The hubris of the "youth scene" (not speaking to you directly, Selenay - merely borrowing your term). What they determine in the now, is the forever shall be.

Thankfully, that's not true.

For if that were true, we would no longer listen to classical music or value certain forms of art.

Because there is nothing new under the sun, and everything old becomes new again, it's safe to assume that just because one generation doesn't use or relate to certain terms that they will "die." They may be out of mode for a certain age group, but that hardly heralds death.

New York is ahead of the curve in most things, additionally there is enormous racial diversity so POC terms for identity are more likely to be adopted and heard. But that while young queers in the 5 boroughs (and parts of Jersey, yo) might not be identifying as butch or femme, there is the great American hinterland still to consider. I doubt there will be sweeping change in which the terms butch and femme cease to exist. I believe, as SuperFemme stated, that there is room for all.

If, by process of cultural evolution butch and femme get put on the shelf (until they make a comeback with the third wave of hippie fashion), I would hope that at least it is done with respect to the space they carved to make way for that evolution, and the relative freedom young queers in America experience.

I think these explorations and deconstructions are part of the process of our queer evolution, but to be dismissive of one's history and those who came before is short-sighted and arrogant.

Still, I disbelieve in the demise. If the term doesn't fit, don't wear it.




Mister Bent,

Your last statement is how I look at life. If it doesn't fit you, then please don't wear it or tell me that I shouldn't. This is not to disparage anyone's posts. Merely my rule of thumb. If there were a third gender identity that was as easy to use as the term 'butch', I would use it. Butch works for me for now.

Kosmo

[Duchess]

OMG this just made me giggle.......

It's not dead yet because I am still alive........and THEN, when I am dead, You can personally try and pry my Femme Papers out of my cold, dead, finely manicured fingers.........


......but not until then, little whippersnapper! ;) <~ ~ I'm WINKING, everyone!

Thank you Miss D. I realize that Butch/Femme can be a bit vague because of the broad range of identifications. However, I'm very proud of the terms. Knowing the origin makes me feel so thankful for those that fought for our place in this world.

I wear my Femme handbag with much pride.

Duchess

[The_Lady_Snow]

*I* am going to post from my personal space and my personal take and the way I am in this world.. My femme gender presentation may fall under a new type of femme or a new sort of femme, it does not nor will it ever fall on the antiquated description of femme.. I won't ever be the one who wears the apron, does the high heels and make up at all times, nor is willing to not have a Dominant role in *my* relationship, let me add I do not define femme, as skirt wearing, cooking in the kitchen following 3 steps behind they butch... *I* know I am different than some femmes, not so different from others.. I am comfortable with the lack of dresses, domestication I have.. I like being in charge, I am extremely proud of who I am as a Femme Leather Daddy to downright giddy at the thought of my cock...

*This* is where I think that for me, I get put into a different box of femme or my gender is dismissed because I am not a feminine as others.. *I* personally do not buy to this ideal..

If we look back at the antiquated history of butch femme, you have to know the femme was the power, she was the one who worked, she was the one who gave a safe haven to her counterpart.. Butch.. Who could not like herself go as easily into the workforce and not stand blend in as much as their femme counterparts...

*I* embrace femme, my gender but not by others definitions of it, not because of what I wear or who I am with.. I am femme without butch I am femme foremost...

Queer Leather Femme Daddy, it may not *fit* into what others may define femme as, or claim that my kind of femme is certainly and will not fall upon old school standards..

I am ok with that... I am comfortable and know I have power, being the femme that I am...

I hope this late night rant made sense

[Bit]

There is no one right way to be Femme, whether it's an adjective or a noun... there's just no one right way.

I'll tell you, Snow, I have seen people that I absolutely adored as sister Femmes decide they absolutely must not actually BE Femmes because they were so dominant. I always wish that I could point to you as a Femme who is dominant when it happens... except that they don't know you at all so it wouldn't make a difference. *wry shrug*

[Boots13]

How fascinating is this !

Kind of like petri dish fascinating...No, I'm not being snarky, I really want to look at this.

If Selly is 20-ish I'd wager she has her ear to the ground in her age group and social
circles. And if Butch/Femme is no longer representative for a younger generation, the
words very well may become a thing of the past, at least in her experience. I think its
fascinating to know.

It doesnt mean I'll be dropping my identity and I still use Butch/Femme as a jumping off point.
But if the evolution of terms and identification have strayed away from Butch/Femme
"labels" (floabw) then I wonder where our youth is headed !
And I'm not being contrite or when I say I'm excited to see a new generation embrace
their identities in their own way. Isnt that how we evolve?

[SassyLeo]

You know, we really don't listen to certain types of music. I haven't really heard baroque music on z100 recently. . . And I can't really tell you the last time I heard a friend tell me that they were going to go study their hurdy gurdy or harpsichord. They aren't extinct, no, but they are for all cultural purposes dead.

There is room for all, of course, but if the youth does not embrace a term, it will die. Just like with language, or clothing, or music, it needs a base to create it and a youth to continue the tradition. Or are we going to go back to Latin now?

I never said that I, or anyone else, doesn't respect the path that has been paved, but I'm willing to bet that if you ask 80% of the people on my extremely queer college (and by extremely queer, I mean the only state university in New York that offers a G/L Studies major, which coincides with the GLBTU, trans-action, drag queen fall ball, ad nauseam...) what the butch/femme dynamic is, they wouldn't have any idea.

Perhaps I'll start a survey and get back to you with more accurate numbers. . . I'll make sure I include on that survey "Stonewall" to find out who actually knows what stonewall is, what its significance was, and if they've been there.


For me, this is a much larger conversation than just the question of outdated or antiquated terms, but more the history and evolution of queer identity.

First, I do agree with Selly in that many young folks I come across (yes, I know I am 36 - youngish - but I know a fair amount of folks in their early 20's) use different terms; genderqueer, trans, fag, genderless... and use them in ways that may mean different things to me or others before me. I don't know that I or they would use the term, dead. But I hear less "butch" and "femme" in the ways I know them when I am around said folks.

For instance, there are several young people I know who were born female and most times appear more masculine, but definitely embrace both the feminine and masculine parts of them...and self identify as trans or fag. We have discussed the terms "butch" and "femme" and they know them, but look at them in more of a historical perspective (and some because I use them and friends in my age group use them). They are less inclined to label themselves, want to be more fluid. This leads me to my next point, which is the evolution.

Several months ago, a bunch of friends had a very deep discussion about the "elder" population of butches. There was alot of talk about the younger population not having access to or somehow missing a connection to have a mentor-like relationship from an "elder" butch. As if there was resistance to it? Disinterest? Or a lacking population? Disconnect? These are words we tossed around, not necessarily ones I chose.

Is part of the reason that the younger generation does not identify with these terms because they don't have someone to lead the way for them, specifically (as in a close elder friend)? Or because as a society we are delving deeper into what gender/gender identity looks like? Or really because of the general evolution of human/sexuality/identities?

These are just thoughts for the moment... forgive the rawness...

[PapaC]

I think Selly's original post and SassyLeo's post are both on point.

I've noticed this trend in Canada as well. But then, I'm of the opinion that "butch" and "femme" have *never* been terms that have been popular in the real-time queer connections that I've had over the years, and my travels and living situations have spanned across Canada in 3 major regional areas and of course, San Francisco.

The only 'real time' community off the internet where there is an abundance of butches and femmes that I've ever participated in is in San Francisco. Who do we have to thank for that? Community organizers. (nodding in Toughy's direction)... I know there's a lot happening in NY as well. How? oh yeah... *community organizers*

But apart from pockets of online communities and some real time community organizers in large urban areas, is "Butch" and "Femme" known or used terms? Frankly folks, I don't think I've *ever* lived (and lived as queer) where Butch and Femme were actually "popular" terms.

They are however, I believe: timeless

A 20-something transman when I asked his observations about the youth culture, he acknowledged that many many MANY have just sorta honed in on 'genderqueer' or 'queer' (he almost made it sound the same - should note that).... and he laughingly said.. "it kinda poses an interesting dilemma for t-guys"

it just might.

And call me crazy, but a part of me looks at "genderqueer" and thinks "oh, that's kinda like being andro" ....only 'cooler' ... more 'updated'

words words words words...

I dunno, I'm tired. when I get fed up with nomenclature discussion, I just sometimes sit back and think "now, how would I explain THAT to my relatives in Europe?"

Another question I have... did every 'lesbian' call themselves a 'lesbian' from the dawning of the english language?

By all accounts, if you look at the fact that the english language is what.... 1000 years old (give or take), for the last 1000 years, have we been hearing the term 'lesbian' to describe two women in love?

From where I'm sitting, seems to me if we look at it that way, "lesbian" as a term is brand spanking new...

just some thoughts.


For me, this is a much larger conversation than just the question of outdated or antiquated terms, but more the history and evolution of queer identity.

First, I do agree with Selly in that many young folks I come across (yes, I know I am 36 - youngish - but I know a fair amount of folks in their early 20's) use different terms; genderqueer, trans, fag, genderless... and use them in ways that may mean different things to me or others before me. I don't know that I or they would use the term, dead. But I hear less "butch" and "femme" in the ways I know them when I am around said folks.

For instance, there are several young people I know who were born female and most times appear more masculine, but definitely embrace both the feminine and masculine parts of them...and self identify as trans or fag. We have discussed the terms "butch" and "femme" and they know them, but look at them in more of a historical perspective (and some because I use them and friends in my age group use them). They are less inclined to label themselves, want to be more fluid. This leads me to my next point, which is the evolution.

Several months ago, a bunch of friends had a very deep discussion about the "elder" population of butches. There was alot of talk about the younger population not having access to or somehow missing a connection to have a mentor-like relationship from an "elder" butch. As if there was resistance to it? Disinterest? Or a lacking population? Disconnect? These are words we tossed around, not necessarily ones I chose.

Is part of the reason that the younger generation does not identify with these terms because they don't have someone to lead the way for them, specifically (as in a close elder friend)? Or because as a society we are delving deeper into what gender/gender identity looks like? Or really because of the general evolution of human/sexuality/identities?

These are just thoughts for the moment... forgive the rawness...

[MsMerrick]

Merrick,

I honestly cannot understand why you would insist that I am intentionally "trashing" or "falsely representing" a thread on the other site when I have clearly explained that my read of those terms translated to what I wrote. I was going to ask if you missed my posts where I explained myself but it seems that you didnt, this gives me even more pause because you are still insisting that I am trashing by falsely representing here? I havent heard "Liar, Liar, pants on fire" in a while but I read it reallllll well.

Just a refresher: When I read the title of the thread "Old Terms in a New Age", I heard "old" juxtaposed with "new age" as in "outdated", "antiquated".
I promise you there was no nefarious intent when I parsed "old" into "antiquated" when I am talking about this issue.

I asked a question. That is not trashing a site or a thread, no matter how many times its said. This was my way of trying to have a new conversation that had nothing to do with the video that was posted there (however great it was!). I merely wanted people's read on how the terms Butch or Femme might be seen as antiquated/old and their thoughts on that. THAT was my thought process, nothing more.

a

1 - I didn't insist any such thing. I said what I said, and you quoted, there was no "echo" within, I can't stop you from adding something in, but thats your add, not mine.
As you your self keep saying, there was a false inference, the motivation is your business, I didn't presume one.
2- The point of using another site, as a jumping off point for a Thread, is where you lose me. There was no need. But if you absolutely had to then an actual reading of the opening post, beyond the Title, seems a must do , in my book. If you had done so, then no mix up of words, juxtopositioning one for the other, would have occurred because the actual subject had nothing to do with either word.
3- Personally, I have always thought it a good rule, to not bring in outside sites. Kind of like talking about someone who isn't there. Not a good idea
You have a nice site here, wouldn't it be cool, if it survived on its own merit, without constant references to "other' sites.
As the owner, you set the standard. Like it o r not, that's how it goes...

[Medusa]

1 - I didn't insist any such thing. I said what I said, and you quoted, there was no "echo" within, I can't stop you from adding something in, but thats your add, not mine.
As you your self keep saying, there was a false inference, the motivation is your business, I didn't presume one.
2- The point of using another site, as a jumping off point for a Thread, is where you lose me. There was no need. But if you absolutely had to then an actual reading of the opening post, beyond the Title, seems a must do , in my book. If you had done so, then no mix up of words, juxtopositioning one for the other, would have occurred because the actual subject had nothing to do with either word.
3- Personally, I have always thought it a good rule, to not bring in outside sites. Kind of like talking about someone who isn't there. Not a good idea
You have a nice site here, wouldn't it be cool, if it survived on its own merit, without constant references to "other' sites.
As the owner, you set the standard. Like it o r not, that's how it goes...


1. You insist my intent by saying that I am "trashing" another site. If you werent insisting that I had a nefarious intent, you would have simply said that I had "referred" to another site.

2. *YOU* dont see a need for it, *I* do. And here again, I dont *have* to do anything as in "must do" because again, my read was my own, my read of the title of the thread and subsequent posts was the jumping off point.

3. Not bringing in outside sites is all well and good but its kinda difficult when we *share* a membership and a community. If we cant ever discuss anything that has ever been discussed on another site then that leaves us with our thumb up our asses considering that there are...oh, I dunno...a BAZILLION threads elsewhere. Again, there seems to be an issue for you with seeing intent that simply *isnt* there. That's your issue, not mine.

And yes, *we* do have a nice site here. A great one actually. Regardless of what you see happening here, this site IS surviving on its own merit, hence over 400 members in less than a month. I dont know where you are seeing "constant" references to another site (but then again, if you are looking for something you might be super myopic about it), but the fact of reality is that there WILL be referenced conversations here. I have no problem with it. Im not going to start policing people, what they say, or where they get their ideas for conversation.

Im also not going to give any more energy to what I feel has personal overtones for you. It's a waste of my time, and yours.
And now, since you "reminded" me that I must "set the standard" as the owner of this site, Im going to do just that and stop giving energy to this circular conversation.

[PapaC]

Sure, and sometimes... all we have are first impressions to go on.
And sometime it's just the delivery.

As for sharing of information on terms and definitions... I scraped around the internet ALL night to get some direction on some coding I had to do on a spreadsheet, and went to at least 3 different sites to get some instruction. Sometimes references matter, sometimes subject material is going to repeat itself on another site.

Maybe not completely analogous to this situation, but I know how I *felt* when I first saw the phrase 'old terms' and I didn't particularly like how it felt for me.

Finally... are refugees from trouble countries forbidden to talk of their experiences in the new country?

...just some drive by thoughts from one of those ugly posters who skims too much for my own good, and tends to rely on titles to capture my interest.

[NJFemmie]

Hmmm...

Are they antiquated terms? hmm .. I don't know. But I also don't see where those terms will be disappearing any time soon either. But then again, I am not some 20-year old, and tend to hold on to terms that might be a bit antiquated to begin with.

I'm not a politically-correct ID junkie either. I kind of believe in "be who you are", and in my mind, won't slap any particular label on anyone. They (labels) are, and always have been, IMO, too general and vague for the uniqueness of every individual. On the flip side of that - I would not be dismissive to their own label/ID/what-have-you either.

On a personal standpoint, I only label my myself to the most basic degree. If anyone wants to know WHO I am, well, they'll soon find that the label itself doesn't "be all to end all".

[Unndunn]

I think it's perfectly natural to talk about a lot of things here that took place or are taking place on the hyphen site (how I think of b-f.com). It's where we're all from, right? Maybe there are a few people who found this planet site on a google search but I think it's safe to say that the vast majority of members of this new site share a history and relationships that didn't just start here. I welcome the rules of this site. It's freeing and healthy in my opinion to be able to talk about where we're from and in many cases why we left. I like PapaC's analogy of immigrants, or refugees.

I'm sure some people have strong connections to the hypen site and feel loyalty to it, and/or to its owner. However, I'm not one of those people. Not being allowed to talk about a place that we all came from or still belong to just furthers the things that I didn't like about that other site, especially recently. The thread on the hyphen site about butch and femme possibly being old and outdated terms was just one more thing that made me feel "less than." I completely agree that communities need to find ways to be more welcoming and accessible. But, and this is a big one, I don't think that the way to court new members is by devaluing the contributions and identities of the current members.

My 19 year old niece has a lot of different terms for things than I do. When I like something I say it's cool. When she likes something it's "sick." We both know we're talking about the same emotion, but we are using different words to describe it. Younger people and others with different reference points, such as urban people, and/or poc use a lot of different, new terms. I need to know what those terms mean so that I'm able to communicate effectively, but those terms don't change who I am. How would losing myself or denying my identity and worth really be a good thing for any community?

I'm a butch and that's not going to change. It's the responsibility of all people, from all points of reference to seek out and learn about how others feel and identify. It's not a one way street in either direction.

Unn/the 40+ year old butch from CT

[Words]

IF Dusa were hell bent on 'trashing' B/F.com, then I'm sure that she is more than capable of coming up with something far more damning than what she supposedly came up with here.

Not being confrontational, simply stating what, to me, seems fairly obvious.

Words

[Words]

I think it's perfectly natural to talk about a lot of things here that took place or are taking place on the hyphen site (how I think of b-f.com). It's where we're all from, right? Maybe there are a few people who found this planet site on a google search but I think it's safe to say that the vast majority of members of this new site share a history and relationships that didn't just start here. I welcome the rules of this site. It's freeing and healthy in my opinion to be able to talk about where we're from and in many cases why we left. I like PapaC's analogy of immigrants, or refugees.

I'm sure some people have strong connections to the hypen site and feel loyalty to it, and/or to its owner. However, I'm not one of those people. Not being allowed to talk about a place that we all came from or still belong to just furthers the things that I didn't like about that other site, especially recently. The thread on the hyphen site about butch and femme possibly being old and outdated terms was just one more thing that made me feel "less than." I completely agree that communities need to find ways to be more welcoming and accessible. But, and this is a big one, I don't think that the way to court new members is by devaluing the contributions and identities of the current members.


I couldn't agree more.

[SuperFemme]

I think the devaluing of Butch and Femme often comes from within our own community (The GLBTQ one). I was researching and found this pearl of an article (http://www.thefreelibrary.com/That%27s+Ms.+Butch+to+you%3a+those+old+butch%2ffem me+games+are+so+out+of+...-a0150864841)

As for young people using Queer and GenderQueer? I find that to be true. I also don't think that anyone has touched on the fact that using the word Queer is reclaiming a word.

Is is too much to think that in the next few decades that if we hear Butch and Femme being used less that it too will end up being reclaimed in another generation?

[NJFemmie]

They are all old words given new meaning. They'll never go away, just have a slight variance in definition and meaning with each generation.

[Apocalipstic]

I think the devaluing of Butch and Femme often comes from within our own community (The GLBTQ one). I was researching and found this pearl of an article (http://www.thefreelibrary.com/That%27s+Ms.+Butch+to+you%3a+those+old+butch%2ffem me+games+are+so+out+of+...-a0150864841)

As for young people using Queer and GenderQueer? I find that to be true. I also don't think that anyone has touched on the fact that using the word Queer is reclaiming a word.

Is is too much to think that in the next few decades that if we hear Butch and Femme being used less that it too will end up being reclaimed in another generation?


Got to agree here. My straight friends are fine with me being Femme and having Butch partners..they get it.

My gay/queer friends think I am out there in the lunatic fringe...which cracks me up.


I think this is a great subject for this Website. It is relevant and stands alone.

[SuperFemme]

Interesting Article:

The death of femme
The butch-femme dynamic is dead for women under 30, who only want to date tranny bois like them.

[/URL]FEMMES ARE OUT of fashion. So posits my friend Coya, and I wonder if she might be right.

When she says “out of fashion,” she means that feminine lesbians are now being marginalized in a new way. The gold standard, of course, has long been butch. Since I came out 13 years ago, most lesbians try to be butch, especially when they first come out.

Some women were just always tomboys, and lesbians welcome them the way they are. But even women who love lace and frills often try out butchness.

Partly I think that’s because being butch, even for a little while, is a good way to shake off the many chains that women wear. It’s a good way to learn that you don’t have to be vulnerable to be valuable, that you don’t have to be pretty to be attractive, that you can be smart and strong and loud, and women will not only be OK with that, but they’ll want to sleep with you.

Also, short hair, a boyish way of walking, an eschewing of make-up, jewelry and high heels, makes us more recognizable to each other, and so it is not surprising that single lesbians might aim to proclaim their lesbianism as loudly as possible.

BUT FOR THE first time that Coya or I can remember, not only don’t most younger lesbians want to be femmes — but they don’t want to date them, either.

The butch-femme dynamic is all but dead for women under 30. I’m not crying about that. I myself always felt trapped when I was the femme half of a butch-femme couple.

It’s not easy being the one who is always expected to be weaker, more emotionally savvy, less able to protect herself, more easily moved to tears. It was hard to keep my temper when women called me “Bambi” or compared me to various porn stars just because I happen to be well endowed.

These things are cyclical, of course. Another friend who came of age in the androgynous 1980s says she was horrified by how butch-femme couples dominate the lesbian scene. It seemed to her an aping of heterosexual conventions, a trend that bought into the idea that only masculine people could be paired with feminine ones.

Yet with the demise of the butch-femme couple comes the general idea that femmes aren’t dating material.

YOUNG WOMEN WHO once called themselves butch now call themselves tranny bois, and these tranny bois are mostly dating each other. This is interesting, and I wonder why.

Are femmes not trangressive enough in our new gender queer era? Are they not playful enough with gender roles? Are tranny bois and androgynous lesbians worried that femmes are a trap that would force them into more traditional butch roles? Or is it really that young lesbians are simply not attracted to women who are feminine?

Let’s face it: When it comes to curvy, feminine women, lesbians may preach acceptance. We may pay lip service to it. After all, we have been acculturated to accept all body types, at least theoretically.

We celebrate thin women, boyish women, curvy women, chubby women, stocky women, butch women, femme women, androgynous women. Every woman’s body, every woman’s gender identity, is OK with us.
Only it’s not. Neither Coya nor I are immune from this general social pressure. Coya, a self-described femme, prefers boyish women. I tend to date more androgynous women — usually women with boyish bodies who wear lipstick, or who slide easily between femme-ish and butch-ish. Think Alice on “The L Word.” Or really, any of the women of “The L Word,” who are too butch to be femme and too femme to be butch.

We might say that any woman’s body is OK with us, but what we say is not who we date. We might have an aesthetic that says that curvy women are beautiful, but we are attracted to women who don’t have curves or who play them down.

The gender queer contingent among lesbians are our current taste-makers; where they go, so go we all.

Femmes, I’m sure, will come back into fashion some day. But until they do, I wonder if we will continue to make room for all the ways we express gender.

[url]http://www.sovo.com/2005/5-27/view/columns/femme.cfm (http://www.sovo.com/)

[Apocalipstic]

I totally agree that Femme is out of style. I just wonder when it ever was?

[SuperFemme]

The author of the article has some interesting points, but she has one huge point she is missing; what a Femme IS.

[Selenay]

It's very interesting that when I come in as a 20 year old and discuss my experiences, and comment that, butch/femme is dead or dying in the community that I'm part of, I'm railroaded.

It never fails to amuse me when my experiences, opinions and beliefs are dismissed automatically because, "Oh, well, you're too young to understand. When you're older/wiser/have more lovers under your belt you'll see things sooooo differently."


Usually I can swallow that kind of dismissive behavior, but it's particularly offensive when it's occurring in a thread that holds such relevance to me, as the next generation of b/f.

I don't think I (or my generation) invented sex, or drugs, or queer, or war, or hate, but I am aware enough to be cognizant that a dramatic shift is going on, and we can stick our heads in the sand or we can discuss where we think it's going.

Butch/femme will never be gone; it'll always be out there in some new incarnation, but take a look for a second at the demographics of the butch-femme websites as an example.

What do YOU think the median age is? When you can name off butch/femme people in their 20's without having to pause and think about it, that's when you'll see the same kind of demographic equality that you have for other age groups, and that's when you'll be certain that b/f will never be gone.

[SuperFemme]

It's very interesting that when I come in as a 20 year old and discuss my experiences, and comment that, butch/femme is dead or dying in the community that I'm part of, I'm railroaded.

It never fails to amuse me when my experiences, opinions and beliefs are dismissed automatically because, "Oh, well, you're too young to understand. When you're older/wiser/have more lovers under your belt you'll see things sooooo differently."


Usually I can swallow that kind of dismissive behavior, but it's particularly offensive when it's occurring in a thread that holds such relevance to me, as the next generation of b/f.

I don't think I (or my generation) invented sex, or drugs, or queer, or war, or hate, but I am aware enough to be cognizant that a dramatic shift is going on and we can stick our heads in the sand or we can discuss where we think it's going.

Butch/femme will never be gone; it'll always be out there in some new incarnation, but take a look for a second at the demographics of the butch-femme websites as an example.

What do YOU think the median age is? When you can name off butch/femme people in their 20's without having to pause and think about it, that's when you'll see the same kind of demographic equality that you have for other age groups, and that's when you'll be certain that b/f will never be gone.



Sel, I am sorry you feel railroaded.

I went digging around the interwebz for more info and indeed you are speaking a valid point. I thank you for that.

Again, you are correct about the median age on most of the b/f sites I have been too. I wish we had MORE young people and to do so means listening to you all with respect. I respect you immensely.

Thank you a million times for coming back and posting when it is uncomfortable.

[Boots13]

I totally agree that Femme is out of style. I just wonder when it ever was?

Hey Apoc ~
If I've never told you how much I like your screen name, every time I see
it (and I've seen it for years!) I chuckle.
Nothing like a little chaos with color !
Boots


Anyway...this statement kinda made me sad. Are we really that "antiquated',
becoming "invisible", or outdated? I wonder what the now generation thinks when
they see a Butch/Femme couple, out and about.


I remember terms like bull-dagger, lipstick lez, sporty dyke...and now Butch and Femme
are falling by the wayside. For some reason this conversation has awakened me.

I had no clue that while we've been arguing, debating, defining ourselves , that the
descriptors of Butch and Femme are falling by the wayside. It makes sense, everything evolves.


I'm really interested in this and wish more of the younger generation was on this thread to
share their experiences and thoughts.

[SuperFemme]

I'm really bothered that Selenay is not feeling us being receptive.
I HEAR her saying b/f will never be dead, that it is simply evolving.

Perhaps that is the crux of the way we are answering?

Butch and Femme are genders to many of us. Identities we've carved out. To hear they are dead gives a mass gut reaction of NO WAY!

Now that I am meandering along thinking about this I realize that is how I have felt during this conversation. In my head I experienced a little fear along the lines of "Please don't erase us". In answering along the lines of that thinking am I erasing a younger generation? I fear I may be, but I don't want to do that.

I want to embrace the evolution of Queer however that may look. That doesn't mean my identity is in jeopardy.

[Duchess]

I'm really bothered that Selenay is not feeling us being receptive.
I HEAR her saying b/f will never be dead, that it is simply evolving.

Perhaps that is the crux of the way we are answering?

Butch and Femme are genders to many of us. Identities we've carved out. To hear they are dead gives a mass gut reaction of NO WAY!

Now that I am meandering along thinking about this I realize that is how I have felt during this conversation. In my head I experienced a little fear along the lines of "Please don't erase us". In answering along the lines of that thinking am I erasing a younger generation? I fear I may be, but I don't want to do that.

I want to embrace the evolution of Queer however that may look. That doesn't mean my identity is in jeopardy.


I could not have said it better.. :bowdown:

[Medusa]

Mad love!

Im curious as to what you think here, Selly. Do you see the disappearance (relevance) of the terminology "Butch" and "Femme", or is it more a disappearance of the culture?

Is it an access issue? An exposure issue? Is it that younger folks are trying to carve out something that feels better to them?

Im 33 myself. When I first came out I remember having a "culture shock" within the context of B/F because I had been exposed to Lesbians who totally dismissed what they viewed as rigid adherence to gender conformity and hegemonic idealism...and here I was suddenly immersed and surrounded with folks who embraced the dynamic.
I will also admit to feeling a little turned off at first with what I felt like was a lot of posturing to be the "most" Femme or the "most" Butch. A distinct hierarchy, if you will.

I also fully recognize that my "Femme" definitely isnt the same as it was 13 years ago. She is looking a lot less like Betty Crocker and a lot more like a cross between the Bride of Chuckie and my (favorite) archetype "Medusa" (hence the screen name).

Didnt mean to hijack here and turn it inward, but Selly has me thinking. (thats never a bad thing)

[Boots13]

Or more aptly the butch?

I just repped Selenay because I enjoyed her perspective, but also feel that her information was met with some degree of denial or hostility by a few others. And thats OK too.

I will tell you, for me, its a hard pill to swallow. I remember seeing old, old, old (probably at least in their fifties, shit, thats me...) bull dykes, daggers, walking around. Looking tired in their leather, sporting mullets, doing the whole flannel shirt thing. And while I appreciated their "breaking ground" for me, I didnt want to be that when I grew old. I wanted to fly my own flag-

And here I am, partnered with a femme, having worked hard through the years to maintain my identity and paying some heavy prices for being so identifiable. I sit here, thrilled to be me, knowing I am in my place, settled in my Butchness, and LOVING my Femme, but wondering what the younger generation thinks about us "oldsters" .

I dont feel defensive, just thoroughly interested in our..yes OUR younger generation and the direction they see themselves going.

[Apocalipstic]

It's very interesting that when I come in as a 20 year old and discuss my experiences, and comment that, butch/femme is dead or dying in the community that I'm part of, I'm railroaded.

It never fails to amuse me when my experiences, opinions and beliefs are dismissed automatically because, "Oh, well, you're too young to understand. When you're older/wiser/have more lovers under your belt you'll see things sooooo differently."


Usually I can swallow that kind of dismissive behavior, but it's particularly offensive when it's occurring in a thread that holds such relevance to me, as the next generation of b/f.

I don't think I (or my generation) invented sex, or drugs, or queer, or war, or hate, but I am aware enough to be cognizant that a dramatic shift is going on, and we can stick our heads in the sand or we can discuss where we think it's going.

Butch/femme will never be gone; it'll always be out there in some new incarnation, but take a look for a second at the demographics of the butch-femme websites as an example.

What do YOU think the median age is? When you can name off butch/femme people in their 20's without having to pause and think about it, that's when you'll see the same kind of demographic equality that you have for other age groups, and that's when you'll be certain that b/f will never be gone.



I apologize if I sounded like my posts are railroading you, I was commenting on the OP's post, not you.

I agree that my younger friends are mostly andro and call themselves queer rather than Butch or Femme...

Thank you for trying to keep us up to date! :) (f)

Hey Apoc ~
If I've never told you how much I like your screen name, every time I see
it (and I've seen it for years!) I chuckle.
Nothing like a little chaos with color !
Boots


Anyway...this statement kinda made me sad. Are we really that "antiquated',
becoming "invisible", or outdated? I wonder what the now generation thinks when
they see a Butch/Femme couple, out and about.


I remember terms like bull-dagger, lipstick lez, sporty dyke...and now Butch and Femme
are falling by the wayside. For some reason this conversation has awakened me.

I had no clue that while we've been arguing, debating, defining ourselves , that the
descriptors of Butch and Femme are falling by the wayside. It makes sense, everything evolves.


I'm really interested in this and wish more of the younger generation was on this thread to
share their experiences and thoughts.


Thank you! My screen name cracks me up too. :)

When I came out back in my 20's, it was scandalous to be Femme and it seems to still be (I kind of like being scandalous so no prob for me). Yes, there have been times where it seemed really cool to be Butch...but that just may be because to me Butches have always been cool and fun to be around.

I also did not take this as a fighting subject. I am fine with however people want to ID as long as there is somewhere I can feel welcome being me. It has been my experience that andro Queers/Lesbians have looked down on girls like me. Giggled when walking in the bar. Talked about. Asked when I was going to grow up, etc.

[Apocalipstic]

Mad love!

Im curious as to what you think here, Selly. Do you see the disappearance (relevance) of the terminology "Butch" and "Femme", or is it more a disappearance of the culture?

Is it an access issue? An exposure issue? Is it that younger folks are trying to carve out something that feels better to them?

Im 33 myself. When I first came out I remember having a "culture shock" within the context of B/F because I had been exposed to Lesbians who totally dismissed what they viewed as rigid adherence to gender conformity and hegemonic idealism...and here I was suddenly immersed and surrounded with folks who embraced the dynamic.
I will also admit to feeling a little turned off at first with what I felt like was a lot of posturing to be the "most" Femme or the "most" Butch. A distinct hierarchy, if you will.

I also fully recognize that my "Femme" definitely isnt the same as it was 13 years ago. She is looking a lot less like Betty Crocker and a lot more like a cross between the Bride of Chuckie and my (favorite) archetype "Medusa" (hence the screen name).

Didnt mean to hijack here and turn it inward, but Selly has me thinking. (thats never a bad thing)

Great post!

Cynthia says when I am mad I am Chuckie. :)

[ToppDyke]

There happen to be many younger butches and femmes who id as butches and femmes so how this concept that the younger generation no longer uses these terms and we need to embrace changing times and new terms with our old ids outdated in yester year is way off base.

Personally I think terms like stud have been around and should be embraced anyway as any given day I could be called either and I respond as I get the context of it is very similar I still id as butch 1st however cuz it's the term I most relate too and always will.

Anyhow in spite there being other terms that should have always been welcome as many others have been there is no need deem butch or femme old terms as the classics don't get old and there is modern young butches and femmes everywhere other then online there for reasons beyond being open to other terms that have been around forever now that have been deemed new when they are not.

I don't see young butches and femmes disappearing off the face of the planet nor do I see stud and other terms the new butch/femme but rather another side of butch/femme that has been around and will be around as long as butch/femme which is an attraction as timeless as boy meets girl and trust me it's not going anywhere as I see an even more open and growing generation of butches and femmes to follow.

[SassyLeo]

Is part of the reason that the younger generation does not identify with these terms because they don't have someone to lead the way for them, specifically (as in a close elder friend)? Or because as a society we are delving deeper into what gender/gender identity looks like? Or really because of the general evolution of human/sexuality/identities?

These are just thoughts for the moment... forgive the rawness...

The only 'real time' community off the internet where there is an abundance of butches and femmes that I've ever participated in is in San Francisco. Who do we have to thank for that? Community organizers. (nodding in Toughy's direction)... I know there's a lot happening in NY as well. How? oh yeah... *community organizers*

But apart from pockets of online communities and some real time community organizers in large urban areas, is "Butch" and "Femme" known or used terms? Frankly folks, I don't think I've *ever* lived (and lived as queer) where Butch and Femme were actually "popular" terms.

They are however, I believe: timeless


Mad love!

Im curious as to what you think here, Selly. Do you see the disappearance (relevance) of the terminology "Butch" and "Femme", or is it more a disappearance of the culture?

Is it an access issue? An exposure issue? Is it that younger folks are trying to carve out something that feels better to them?

Didnt mean to hijack here and turn it inward, but Selly has me thinking. (thats never a bad thing)

I think we are all kind of talking about the same thing... and I really dig the discussion (do people still say "dig"? :>). I also love hearing from the younger folks (ok sometimes that feels weird to say because I still think of myself as young...) yes, Selly...you, please talk more!!! I am learning still, everyday, and while I feel somewhat sad that maybe the terms butch and femme are less used and maybe even considered outdated by some, I am encouraged by the progression we have made in terms of acceptance in the queer culture to include so much fluidity.

[Bootboi]

It's very interesting that when I come in as a 20 year old and discuss my experiences, and comment that, butch/femme is dead or dying in the community that I'm part of, I'm railroaded.

It never fails to amuse me when my experiences, opinions and beliefs are dismissed automatically because, "Oh, well, you're too young to understand. When you're older/wiser/have more lovers under your belt you'll see things sooooo differently."


Usually I can swallow that kind of dismissive behavior, but it's particularly offensive when it's occurring in a thread that holds such relevance to me, as the next generation of b/f.

I don't think I (or my generation) invented sex, or drugs, or queer, or war, or hate, but I am aware enough to be cognizant that a dramatic shift is going on, and we can stick our heads in the sand or we can discuss where we think it's going.

Butch/femme will never be gone; it'll always be out there in some new incarnation, but take a look for a second at the demographics of the butch-femme websites as an example.

What do YOU think the median age is? When you can name off butch/femme people in their 20's without having to pause and think about it, that's when you'll see the same kind of demographic equality that you have for other age groups, and that's when you'll be certain that b/f will never be gone.




*chuckles* I'm glad we are not having the age discussion. Bright and Beautiful is my shining star!

:awww:


Sincerely,

Her old as dirt Butch

[BullDog]

I am no expert on how the younger generation are iding, but I see a lot of truth in what ToppDyke says. Genderqueer seems to dominate a lot of online stuff that I see, and certainly it's a term that a lot of people resonate with- which is totally cool. But there are whole other worlds out there, whole other communities out there-both online and real time- Stud and Butch identities- as an example- that are quite a bit removed from what dominates the airwaves on the major Butch Femme sites.

Just this morning I was doing some searches on Studs, because the voices of some of the younger Studs that I read and listen to in videos really do resonate with me even though I am a 47 year old white butch. There are some really great voices out there- very savvy, very aware, who incorporate masculinity within a woman-centric, community based framework- at least that is my take on it. I am loving what I am finding. Not seeing much of it at butch femme sites.

[SassyLeo]

Finally... are refugees from trouble countries forbidden to talk of their experiences in the new country?
.

Totally NOT to derail the great conversation happening here.... but I had to make sure this was noted.

This was a great analogy for me (and maybe others resonate)

Brilliant, PapaC. :bowdown: ;)

Thank you!

[Selenay]

I'm really bothered that Selenay is not feeling us being receptive.
I HEAR her saying b/f will never be dead, that it is simply evolving.

Perhaps that is the crux of the way we are answering?

Butch and Femme are genders to many of us. Identities we've carved out. To hear they are dead gives a mass gut reaction of NO WAY!

Now that I am meandering along thinking about this I realize that is how I have felt during this conversation. In my head I experienced a little fear along the lines of "Please don't erase us". In answering along the lines of that thinking am I erasing a younger generation? I fear I may be, but I don't want to do that.

I want to embrace the evolution of Queer however that may look. That doesn't mean my identity is in jeopardy.



That's really the point of my posting at all; I don't care if I'm dismissed, if you think I'm irrelevant and my post is, as well. Really, you're entitled to your opinions (even if they're wrong) just like I am.

My big issue is that there are so few other young people here. Why do we think that is? Is it, perhaps, because they were treated the same way I have? I've been on butch-femme websites since I was sixteen, so I've kind of grown up with a tough skin. What about people who haven't? What about people who don't know that when people are percieved as being mean, they aren't?

Nothing ever dies. Let's go back to the dead harpsichord--that became the piano. Latin became French and Spanish and Italian. Their evolution is what keeps them alive--why do we still know what Latin is while most people have never heard of Yana or Jassic? Latin became something new.


Sidenote to Selly: I don't care how you identify, I love your voice, it energizes me and makes me think. It's Monday, come over here and be a Poodle with me. On alternate days, I'm a DolphinLion.



I'll be a poodle with you only if you'll be bunnicula with me every wednesday.



Mad love!

Im curious as to what you think here, Selly. Do you see the disappearance (relevance) of the terminology "Butch" and "Femme", or is it more a disappearance of the culture?

Is it an access issue? An exposure issue? Is it that younger folks are trying to carve out something that feels better to them?

I also fully recognize that my "Femme" definitely isnt the same as it was 13 years ago. She is looking a lot less like Betty Crocker and a lot more like a cross between the Bride of Chuckie and my (favorite) archetype "Medusa" (hence the screen name).


Do you think that your own evolution of New Femme from Old Femme is a demarcation of a shift in Butch/Femme? I can't speak as to whether or not it's a change in the terminology or the culture, but my opinion is that the gay culture is shifting away from strict guidelines of what gender is, away from the binary of masculine and feminine, and that's affecting butch/femme.




but wondering what the younger generation thinks about us "oldsters" .



You're all old and mean but some of you can cook really well so we'll keep you around til we get your recipes but after that we're actually going to get rid of you.

[Arwen]

I think what it all boils down to for me is this:

I will call you(generic) what you(generic) want to be called. I would request the same courtesy in return.

Language discussions that revolve around age are, you will pardon the pun, as old as the hills.

"Kids these days" will all too soon be "the older crowd" and the "older crowd" will be ...well, not present.

So I guess I don't much care what anyone thinks of the term butch or the term femme other than as far as respecting my choice to use it. And I promise not to call you(generic) femme if you will give me another choice to use.

[suebee]

Some days I SWEAR I check to see if its a full moon before I post.

Ok, I used "antiquated" as a way to parse the term "OLD" into what I was feeling was being said. I should have been more clear. My bad.
The verbatim, word-for-word was "Old Terms".

and just as a sidenote: whether you were talking to me or not about something being "ignored", I have been up since 6am cleaning house and have been on and off of this site all day answering emails, reported posts, and private messages, so if something is asked or said and I dont respond or reply, its prrrrooooobbbbbaabbbbblllyyyy because I just didnt see it.

Ah. Thanks for the clarification. I was wondering about that.

[Duchess]

I have never put much energy into thinking about other people's choices unless they directly affect me. I think growing up in a multicultural home taught me tolerance for diversity as I exited the womb.

Femme fits perfectly for me because the term is a HUGE umbrella. There are so many layers to me, I can't simply identify as Transensual Femme, Stone Femme, etc....Being Femme or Butch is complex. There's no one way to do it.

If this ideaology doesn't work for the next person that's cool, because there's only one Duchess (thank God) and there's only one you. The important thing is to follow your instinct and not stay within the lines for definition's sake. :)


Duchess

[Bootboi]

I think what it all boils down to for me is this:

I will call you(generic) what you(generic) want to be called. I would request the same courtesy in return.

So I guess I don't much care what anyone thinks of the term butch or the term femme other than as far as respecting my choice to use it. And I promise not to call you(generic) femme if you will give me another choice to use.


I'm with Arwen on this. I really think it's common sense but then as they say common sense isnt so common. ;)

[Medusa]

Ah. Thanks for the clarification. I was wondering about that.


And actually, the more I thought about it I shouldnt even have said "parsed" because that implies that I changed the meaning somehow. I think I should have said "used the word as I interpreted it".

And just for the record: From Dictionary.com

antiquated - 4 dictionary results
an⋅ti⋅quat⋅ed  /ˈæntɪˌkweɪtɪd/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [an-ti-kwey-tid] Show IPA
Use antiquated in a Sentence
See web results for antiquated
See images of antiquated
–adjective 1. continued from, resembling, or adhering to the past; old-fashioned: antiquated attitudes.
2. no longer used; obsolete or obsolescent: The spinning wheel is an antiquated machine.
3. aged; old:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


This is why I couldnt really wrap my head around the idea of intentionally misrepresenting something as "antiquated" when it essentially means the same thing as "old" in the context in which I presented it. Language, a tricky tricky thing.

[NJFemmie]

And actually, the more I thought about it I shouldnt even have said "parsed" because that implies that I changed the meaning somehow. I think I should have said "used the word as I interpreted it".

And just for the record: From Dictionary.com

antiquated - 4 dictionary results
an⋅ti⋅quat⋅ed  /ˈæntɪˌkweɪtɪd/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [an-ti-kwey-tid] Show IPA
Use antiquated in a Sentence
See web results for antiquated
See images of antiquated
–adjective 1. continued from, resembling, or adhering to the past; old-fashioned: antiquated attitudes.
2. no longer used; obsolete or obsolescent: The spinning wheel is an antiquated machine.
3. aged; old:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


This is why I couldnt really wrap my head around the idea of intentionally misrepresenting something as "antiquated" when it essentially means the same thing as "old" in the context in which I presented it. Language, a tricky tricky thing.

I'm confused. I don't understand what the hub-bub is over the word.
(yes, I said hub-bub).

[NJFemmie]

I'm with Arwen on this. I really think it's common sense but then as they say common sense isnt so common. ;)

... just as being politically correct isn't correct anymore.
I think I finally understand what it means to get old. The generation gap concept has been epiphanized.

[Blue_Daddy-O]

And actually, the more I thought about it I shouldnt even have said "parsed" because that implies that I changed the meaning somehow. I think I should have said "used the word as I interpreted it".

And just for the record: From Dictionary.com

antiquated - 4 dictionary results
an⋅ti⋅quat⋅ed  /ˈæntɪˌkweɪtɪd/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [an-ti-kwey-tid] Show IPA
Use antiquated in a Sentence
See web results for antiquated
See images of antiquated
–adjective 1. continued from, resembling, or adhering to the past; old-fashioned: antiquated attitudes.
2. no longer used; obsolete or obsolescent: The spinning wheel is an antiquated machine.
3. aged; old:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


This is why I couldnt really wrap my head around the idea of intentionally misrepresenting something as "antiquated" when it essentially means the same thing as "old" in the context in which I presented it. Language, a tricky tricky thing.

Medusa...I LOVE LOVE LOVE that you used the word antiquated. I believe the word is very fitting and less jarring to my eyes and soul as "Old Terms". I also believe this discussion is very important and EVERY related site should be having it right now! I don't understand the concept of others coming in trying to start drama over you bringing up this discussion! No site or person has a patent on the subject! That's just common sense! I see you have good business and social sense!

What I have heard from the 21 crowd here in DFW is the "younger crowd" is more gender fluid and doesn't want to be boxed into a label. Maybe this isn't some new phenomena. It seems to be history repeating itself as others have said. If I remember back to when I was that age, it seems others that age around me felt the same way. Too busy doing other things rather than being too serious about dissecting ones self/soul/reflecting on the deeper meaning of it all. I've always heard and believe it's true for most that the 20s are about figuring out who you are. And in our 30s we finally accept ourselves. I'm sure that might explain why BF sites don't have a larger younger audience. Many in the younger generation haven't figured out yet if they are more butch, more femme, both or none of the above, and haven't figured out yet what specific type of person they are more attracted to. Not to mention, no telling how many times their minds, feelings, wants, needs and desires change. They are just being, experiencing and trying to see what fits and feels best. I have heard for the first time in all of my Gay Life a 21 year old refer to herself as a Femmestick!!! LoL!

What has been very interesting to me is being off the BF sites for a few years and coming back and seeing even the over 30 and up generation now coming out of the Butch/Femme boxes/labels and/or expanding them.

I have to say I love a feminine Femme...I hope she never vanishes and there are always some of her around!

[Apocalipstic]

Thanks for saying that BVD-O, it seems like most of the new terms are not for the more feminine of us. I wonder if its just Femmes who are antiquated.

[Darth Denkay]

The_Lady_Snow - you totally freaking rock - you are femme in all your glory!!!

Apoc - Femme is definitely not antiquated in my book.

Yes, there does seem to be some defensiveness in this discussion, based around perceived fear that we will be erased as a culture. It's understandable. Yes, my hackles raise when I think about butch/femme becoming obsolete. In my case though, it has more to do with losing our history than with my identity in particular. You see, I'm gonna be butch until the day I die (and if there's more after that I'll be butch then too). Regardless of how terms may shift, I will always be a butch - no one can take that away from me. What raises my hackles is a fear that we will lose/forget our history. Butch/femme is what started the lesbian community (lesbians existed long before, but butch/femme created the first organized community). This was in the 1940s. These individuals suffered, were humiliated, and died because they were not ashamed of who they were, and made our lot, as their descendants if you will, so much easier. It's the connection to our past that I am afraid of losing.

[Bit]

This was in the 1940s. These individuals suffered, were humiliated, and died because they were not ashamed of who they were, and made our lot, as their descendants if you will, so much easier. It's the connection to our past that I am afraid of losing.

It can't be lost now *soft smile* it's right here. Every time we talk about our community and our history, we make it that much more resistant to being erased.

I think the wonder of the internet is that we, all of us together, are writing a history of the human race that will last as long as technology lasts... look at the books which are being put online, the movies, the music, the plays, the art--we as a race are archiving our own history as fast as we are able, to save it all. This is unprecedented, you know. We've never had the capability before, never had a way for an average person to make a mark on history like this, never had a way for entire countries to preserve their culture like this.

And, for what might well be the very first time ever and certainly for the first time in recorded history, OUR culture, our gay, Queer culture, is a huge part of the archive. This is a wonder to me. What an amazing time to be alive, when my words--the words of one small life--can be part of the actual archive of history!

This is our story. We're writing it together, all of us, from everywhere around the world.

[always2late]

I am a Femme. I was born a Femme and was one before I even heard the word. I embrace it and it is how I identify. I looove the term. And I also love the term "Butch", and the Butch/Femme dynamic. I find that it encompasses all that I love about myself, my own identity, and the ID of my partner. However, I do realize that these are my own personal preferences. I would never presume to label anyone with an ID not of their own choosing. I think what it all comes down to is respect. I do not disdain any new manner of identifying, on the contrary, I celebrate and embrace whatever identity one chooses to use to define themself. I just ask that I be allowed the same freedom of expression. No one has to agree with my choice of identity..they just need to respect it.

[Blue_Daddy-O]

Thanks for saying that BVD-O, it seems like most of the new terms are not for the more feminine of us. I wonder if its just Femmes who are antiquated.

Sure Apocalipstic.... I LOVE antiquated Femmes :cheer: !!! ;)

[Kosmo]

For me, this is a much larger conversation than just the question of outdated or antiquated terms, but more the history and evolution of queer identity.

First, I do agree with Selly in that many young folks I come across (yes, I know I am 36 - youngish - but I know a fair amount of folks in their early 20's) use different terms; genderqueer, trans, fag, genderless... and use them in ways that may mean different things to me or others before me. I don't know that I or they would use the term, dead. But I hear less "butch" and "femme" in the ways I know them when I am around said folks.

For instance, there are several young people I know who were born female and most times appear more masculine, but definitely embrace both the feminine and masculine parts of them...and self identify as trans or fag. We have discussed the terms "butch" and "femme" and they know them, but look at them in more of a historical perspective (and some because I use them and friends in my age group use them). They are less inclined to label themselves, want to be more fluid. This leads me to my next point, which is the evolution.

Several months ago, a bunch of friends had a very deep discussion about the "elder" population of butches. There was alot of talk about the younger population not having access to or somehow missing a connection to have a mentor-like relationship from an "elder" butch. As if there was resistance to it? Disinterest? Or a lacking population? Disconnect? These are words we tossed around, not necessarily ones I chose.

Is part of the reason that the younger generation does not identify with these terms because they don't have someone to lead the way for them, specifically (as in a close elder friend)? Or because as a society we are delving deeper into what gender/gender identity looks like? Or really because of the general evolution of human/sexuality/identities?

These are just thoughts for the moment... forgive the rawness...

It took me longer to get to where I wanted to be with my identity. I had no butch mentor. I didn't feel fluid. I felt quite isolated from how my circle of friends were. They mostly identified as lesbian, tweener, androgynous, gender neutral, and on. At the time, the only butch-femme dynamic that was visible to me were the rarely seen older couple. I wondered then if I was outdated before I had a chance to discover myself and 'be'.

I have thought more on Selenay's post and with the help of others that have done a better job of listening and responding to it, I think I grasp what she is saying. Out of curiosity, I would like to see where the generational evolution of human/sexuality/identities flows to. I think what is now called butch-femme will still navigate it's own river. Just as strong as it was and is.

Kosmo

[NotAnAverageGuy]

I will prolly get some flack for this but why is there such an uproar over terms, labels, etc?

Maybe I just see it as it to me, words that describe who we are.

[Linus]

I will prolly get some flack for this but why is there such an uproar over terms, labels, etc?

Maybe I just see it as it to me, words that describe who we are.

For some it's important. Whether it's just a preference or whether it's a way to self-describe. I don't think it's as much of an "uproar" as much as a desire to understand different points of view.

To all: I am curious that butch and the variants thereof are so many but femme is only one (although girl/babygirl and trans-sensual femme are other terms I've seen to describe but I don't know that they have the same idea or are from the same concept as femme (??) )

So what would be a "modern" term for femme?

[NotAnAverageGuy]

Good point uproar might not have been the best word to use, but I understand where you are coming from as well

I too as Linus asked would like to hear the concepts for the femme term

[Unndunn]

I think it's interesting that there aren't many new terms being used in place of "femme." My guess is that it is related to two things, the first being femme invisibility. A lot of femmes aren't easy to differentiate from straight women. (please God help me to word this in the most femme-positive, supportive and affirming way possible...you know angry femmes scare me) I think there might be less of a need perceived to give them another label or descriptor besides feminine, femme, lady, woman, etc. I could be completely wrong, it's just a thought.

As for "butch" having more changes, I wonder if it is partly due to the way butch is often used as a negative, almost like a dirty word. Outside of this limited online world of butchfemmeplanet and other butch-femme sites being "too butch" can be a real problem. A quick scroll through the dating sites online will show ad after ad that says "no butches." It occurs in real time too. Butches stand out, it's hard to miss them.

I'm getting tired and it's probably a good time to just hit send rather than share all of my other hair-brained theories (I've got tons of them on every subject).

[Kosmo]

I think it's interesting that there aren't many new terms being used in place of "femme." My guess is that it is related to two things, the first being femme invisibility. A lot of femmes aren't easy to differentiate from straight women. (please God help me to word this in the most femme-positive, supportive and affirming way possible...you know angry femmes scare me) I think there might be less of a need perceived to give them another label or descriptor besides feminine, femme, lady, woman, etc. I could be completely wrong, it's just a thought.

As for "butch" having more changes, I wonder if it is partly due to the way butch is often used as a negative, almost like a dirty word. Outside of this limited online world of butchfemmeplanet and other butch-femme sites being "too butch" can be a real problem. A quick scroll through the dating sites online will show ad after ad that says "no butches." It occurs in real time too. Butches stand out, it's hard to miss them.

I'm getting tired and it's probably a good time to just hit send rather than share all of my other hair-brained theories (I've got tons of them on every subject).

Your take on 'butch' brought back some memories. In the early 90's I didn't have a personal computer so I would grab the local gay newspaper and browse the personals. I could count on one hand how many times I saw femme looking for butch (usually one or two and usually seeking soft butch). Never was sure what that meant. Anyway, it was usually: femme seeking femme or specific in 'no butches please', so I knew we were out there. So what was wrong with us?

I always came away feeling less than after reading those personals. I just didn't think I would find anyone that was my compliment. Then one time I saw one, femme seeks butch. I found her! The only femme seeking butch in the world! lol. Then I thought, great, there's gonna be at least 100 butches practicing their best introduction message (yep, I was one of them, *chuckles*). Seems like a lifetime ago.

Just for curiosity sake, I went online to the same newspaper and into their personals section. Wasn't much there; only 7 (more online communities now).

None looking for butch, but 3 were butch: 2 soft butch and 1 'more tomboy' than butch. 2 of them were seeking femme. I wonder how it is in different parts of the country. I'll have to take a look at some of those online services to see how the descriptives are used.

It makes for an interesting social study

[Isadora]

... the whole discussion brings up issues and fears for me cause I have already been through this once in the 70's during the feminist era when I was called a "pawn of the patriarchy" and "copying heterosexual relationships".

The pressure then was no labels. The ugliness of either be andro or you are not welcome in our community and I mean we were ostracized, was sometimes violent. Ever have an angry feminist lesbian pull your hair (too long and girly), push you down and take your heels and throw them, or take your lipstick and write all over your face? I heard in 1970's "butch/femme is dead and old." All these things happened.

Those of us who lived through it know that to see it come around again seems dismissive and hurtful all over again. To write us off as too boxed in is unfair and truly offensive. Gender queer works for some, but to say it is more label free or more andro, and imply that it is better and younger and m ore hip, dismisses my history, dismisses me as a vital person in the universe. There is not, for me, a better form of self description.

Being ridiculed for being femme or butch and appreciating those descriptors was the norm in the 70's. I published and article about 10 years back about this part of the b/f past, one butch said "Everyone wanted to fuck me but they wouldn't walk down the street with me the next morning. No one would talk to me at meetings. I would walk in and there would be a dead silence."

As I said in my first post, I find it very interesting that the discussion is about the alternative terms for butch and none for femme. I agree with Unndunn, about femme invisibility. I, also believe that butch/femme is part of the queer paradigm. For me, a person who is not queer/gay/lesbian/dyke/transensual is not femme, she can be feminine but not femme. Besides, I don't want to change my descriptor.

*sits back and waits for it*

Then too, I heard b/f is dead or dying. Still here. Still alive. Still kickin!

[Jess]

Interesting article, while I continue to marinate this topic ...

http://katebornstein.typepad.com/kate_bornsteins_blog/2008/07/walle-a-butchfe.html

Also.. regarding using posts from b-f.com ( the site who must not be spoken... :dots: ) I have no issue with using any reference I can find to help educate myself and/or assist myself in making points that my limited vocabulary/ vernacular might hinder me from doing. While, I will not repost parts of threads from there as per the owners copyright stuff, I do feel completely in the right in using posts there as " jumping off points" or reference points for any conversation I may have regarding the butch-femme dynamic.

I appreciate the discussion very much. Thank you Medusa for opening it!

[Kosmo]

For some it's important. Whether it's just a preference or whether it's a way to self-describe. I don't think it's as much of an "uproar" as much as a desire to understand different points of view.

To all: I am curious that butch and the variants thereof are so many but femme is only one (although girl/babygirl and trans-sensual femme are other terms I've seen to describe but I don't know that they have the same idea or are from the same concept as femme (??) )

So what would be a "modern" term for femme?

Linus,

Is there a list of all the variants of butch that you mention? I can google it and come up with: stone, hard, soft, TG. Would that include dyke, bulldyke?

Never thought about it, just curious as to how many there are and I also wonder if some of them would still have the same idea or are from the same concept as butch. I know femme, stone femme, high femme, lipstick lesbian (this last one may be more aligned with bulldyke).

[Linus]

Linus,

Is there a list of all the variants of butch that you mention? I can google it and come up with: stone, hard, soft, TG. Would that include dyke, bulldyke?

Never thought about it, just curious as to how many there are and I also wonder if some of them would still have the same idea or are from the same concept as butch. I know femme, stone femme, high femme, lipstick lesbian (this last one may be more aligned with bulldyke).
Stud and Aggressive are the other "butch" variants I thought. A few others were also mentioned in the thread.

[Kosmo]

Stud and Aggressive are the other "butch" variants I thought. A few others were also mentioned in the thread.

Thanks Linus,

I'll have to search the thread to find them all. I've never heard of Aggressive, but I don't get out much, lol.

[Jess]

This topic has had me doing a good deal of reading again. This is a link to an exciting project that tells me the dynamic is still alive and well and embracing folks of all ages.

:movieguy: http://www.apersistentdesire.com/index.html :movieguy:

[Jess]

A couple of other noteworthy films...

The Aggressives and My Femme Divine.. both document different views on the butch/ femme dynamic.

[Darth Denkay]

Reading through the thread (and the similar one on the other site) one thing stands out to me - the part semantics plays in this discussion. As we know, choice of words can be really powerful. One word that I've seen (on which thread I can't recall) is that the younger generation is re-writing/re-defining butch-femme. When written that way, yeah, I get defensive. Those words, to me, suggest change that more or less does away with the prior terms, identities. In my mind, it implies that butch-femme is no longer and we now will use these other terms, the culture will change, and those of us who hold to the butch-femme community will be left behind. I don't think that's what's happening - the butch-femme community as we know it is too strong to be erased. Younger folks may use different terms, and certainly the culture will change, but I think it's more of incorporating the new rather than replacing the old with the new. Does that distinction make sense?

Several have shared good resources. Another I would add is "Boots of leather, slippers of gold: The history of a lesbian community". The organized lesbian community happened starting in the 30s and 40s, and it WAS butch-femme. I expect lesbians who are opposed to butch-femme would be quite upset to know that, but lesbian history (as an organized community) began with us. Since that time I'm sure the culture has changed, and it will continue to. However, that doesn't mean the history will be erased (which is where I have my freak-out) and I do believe we will always have a place here. I don't see the shift being as drastic as when butch-femme went underground because lesbian feminists saw us as the evil lesbian version of the patriarchy. And if we think about it, at that time lesbians wanted to see us gone - and while we went underground, we didn't go away. I think the current shift is far less drastic, and we won't be going anywhere. Our culture may expand, but we're not leaving.

[Darth Denkay]

Hey Kosmo,

You mention that this would make for an interesting social study - there's at least one such study out there that addressing this topic.

The reference is

Smith, C. S., & Stillman, S. (2002). Butch/Femme in the personal advertisements of lesbians. Journal of Lesbian Studies, 6, 45-51.

Here's a summary of the results:

75% of the ads did not self-identify as femme or butch
14% self-identified as femme and 11% as butch
66% did not mention femme or butch in terms of who they sought
In the ads that specified seeking femme or butch, 26% sought femme and 5% butch, with a few explicitly indicating "no butches"
Those who self-identified as femme sought femme partners 56% versus butch partners 18% (the remaining 26% did not specify)
10% of those who did not identify as butch or femme specified wanting a femme partner; none specified wanting a butch partner
Of those who self-identified as butch requested femme partners 74% and butch partners 7%


Like you, when I used to read personal ads in gay/lesbian papers I always ended up pissed off. Rarely did anyone specify looking for a butch, and it seemed like many folks specifically stated no butches. At this point I didn't have a butch-femme community so basically figured there was no one out there who wanted a butch. When I became involved in my first online-community and found folks who actually wanted folks like me - well, I can't really even describe the relief I felt.

-Wicket

Your take on 'butch' brought back some memories. In the early 90's I didn't have a personal computer so I would grab the local gay newspaper and browse the personals. I could count on one hand how many times I saw femme looking for butch (usually one or two and usually seeking soft butch). Never was sure what that meant. Anyway, it was usually: femme seeking femme or specific in 'no butches please', so I knew we were out there. So what was wrong with us?

I always came away feeling less than after reading those personals. I just didn't think I would find anyone that was my compliment. Then one time I saw one, femme seeks butch. I found her! The only femme seeking butch in the world! lol. Then I thought, great, there's gonna be at least 100 butches practicing their best introduction message (yep, I was one of them, *chuckles*). Seems like a lifetime ago.

Just for curiosity sake, I went online to the same newspaper and into their personals section. Wasn't much there; only 7 (more online communities now).

None looking for butch, but 3 were butch: 2 soft butch and 1 'more tomboy' than butch. 2 of them were seeking femme. I wonder how it is in different parts of the country. I'll have to take a look at some of those online services to see how the descriptives are used.

It makes for an interesting social study

[Andrew, Jr.]

I think how you want to label yourself is up to you. It's like choosing a color of an ipod. Whatever you want, it is your choice. Like everyone else, I too have heard that b/f is dying or dead by now. However, in my life and my world, it is fully alive, well, and kicking.

What would be a new updated or cosmo name for a femme then? I think it is so confusing because I look at a woman's soul morethan what is between her legs.

Isadora, I loved your post. I remember those days. Unbelieveable, but yet it did happen.

Namaste,
Andrew


:2cents:

[WILDCAT]

Just found and read this thread today. (And yes, I am a VERY slow reader - AND A.D.D., thus like to take my time to "digest".)

Seems to me, that "at least" four different "thought topics" spurned off of this intial thought topic here.

So, I'm thinking this is a factor in the discussion at hand - as well as the "bits and pieces" of confussion seemingly here and there (?)

What do I say? I can't even begin to explain to you all how I feel about the so many different responses here. HOWEVER, I will say... this stayed much more civil than I "THOUGHT" it would.

And "thank you" for that.

I'll just respond to MY thoughts on the topic, and/or whatever came up that I felt was pertinent.

I feel people's pain.

I understand the need for "change".

I respect everything and everybody - provided that they respect equally back in exchange. (WELL, that would be "more MY HOPE"... I guess anyway.)
___

First of all:

*No one can disappear unless they "choose" to, simply... leave. (Or, the big meteor hits, of course.)

*History will always be "what it already IS"...

*Why: don't we separate what is tough for us in the real world - from what we're doing to each other here?

*How about "expectations vs. assumptions", and then JUDGEMENT here in our community? Perhaps we could take a better look at that (?)

*I love music, "be-bop" came back. (And jazz, and blues, etc... and some NEVER EVEN EVER LEFT.)

I will say that I totally respect ALL persons where they say they are, identities and such...

I will also say, I don't understand "how we canNOT"?

I don't understand how anyone could "assume" anyone's ID is BETTER than another - what THEY are saying... "is BEST FOR THEM"! Period.

I don't understand how folks DON'T understand, to respect that which is before you - to ignoring that part of history...(?)

I wonder how/why I continue to be fried for my part of the 70's movement when I was a masculine woman (or feminine, it WOULD NOT MATTER!), and/WHO did not "care" about the b/f dynamic in any negative manner, as I recognized and UNDERSTOOD it was a necessary part of the "history/HERSTORY" part of/for ALL of us. I don't GET how folks are still taking this "personal". I don't GET how folks are judging ME (some general US folks, through that time period), STILL from that also necessary period of time. And I don't get how the other's through this same movement would "today" cling onto the B/F dynamic in ANY negative way, after all of this processing! (EXCEPT for the perpetuated sexist and misogynist crap... which IS REAL, the STILL ABUSIVE SHIT AGAINST ALL FEMALES - NOT ALL JUST ROLE-PLAYED or the beloved in the "BF dynamics".)

I don't GET how people don't understand how we can move and grow through changes and accept, accept, accept - as we have surely done...

And why do we have to "keep proving" that WE deserve a "spot" here, in our OWN dynamics? Welcoming as we are? (Not "foolproof, no, but it goes BOTH ways"...)
___

I was a young kid, running through the fields of Mich. Fest, with no shirt feeling THAT freedom (for the first time... well, except from childhood when my mother LET me!), listening to music that was basically "folk music" at that time, but FINALLY to MY EARS: "women loving women" music!

I went on to become politcally involved during the late 70's, and although recognizing that "there were STIGMAS"... only held truth for that which was the priority for gaining what we needed to gain. I dismissed NO ONE. I thought "lip stick lesbians" were brave actually. (And butches, no matter the thought then!) And now look today where things are. We must go through these processes. I'm TIRED though, of folks relaying this as a "stuck in time" period to crucify FOREVER. I'm tired of being linked to a mentality that just does not hold true for us all as a set in motion "forever stuck thing"! And EVEN if it DOES for certain "political feminists", let the fuck go of that too and respect that! (And PLEASE, "get over it".) Thank you. If you've taken over a government building and still want to complain a bit, then go for it! Otherwise, maybe read and learn... and be just a bit more "thankful", perhaps. (If you haven't done such events.)

I'm also tired of folks spitting out "lesbian" as if it were the most horrible bad thing... the worst that you could be called. I'm tired of folks "ASSUMING" ALL folks on a site like this are "lesbians". The rage and anger it spurns is so painful FOR SOMEONE LIKE ME, however... I can thus imagine how painful it also must be for those who are from all walks of ID's that do not care for this "generalization". I would be pissed too! Hell, I AM!! But, when this happens, and it gets SPIT OUT, yes, I am hurt. I wish folks would think of it that way too. Could we all be a bit more "considerate" here in this regards?

The butch/femme dynamic is so specific, but vague as well. It is our history, yes. Who should be bothered with anything as part of our history? Who should be offended and/or afraid of anything having to do with the future and different ID's and names, etc...? I just don't get that - either. (UNLESS we are negatively "put to rest"... or the future choices are being "nailed as wrong"! I just don't/can't see that...) I DO get that I need to be respected. I DO UNDERSTAND that the current generation MUST BE RESPECTED. I want and NEED to trust them! No one should feel pressured to adhere to a certain "protocol", from the past. No one is STUCK from "politcal movements", (PLEASE again, fucking let that go??? Except for the ones that DON'T want that "let go" WHO WERE INVOLVED, and that is "THEIR RIGHT TO", but being categorized and generalized from this time period today is pure BULLSHIT)! And no one should JUDGE a DAMN THING. Ever. Never. Find how it fits into "your scheme" of politics and/or lifetstyle/history/HERSTORY, fine. But, no one should be judging. We grow, we learn, we experience, we GROW... we learn.

Just my intial thoughts on this. Thanks for reading.

WILDCAT.

[iamkeri1]

I am really enjoying this thread. So many of you have made good points. I look forward to see what new terms will be brought in to the discussion. Perhaps one or two among us will find terms that we like - like a new pair of stillettos rather than our old comfortable tennies - exciting but uncomfortable at first.

I was prompted to look up synonyms for the word "butch" and came up with this.

(from Dictionary.com)
AC-DC, amazon, amphierotic, androgyne, auntie, autoerotic, bi-guy, bisexed, bisexual, bull dyke, catamite, chicken, deviant, dyke, effeminate, fag, faggot, fairy, femme, flit, fricatrice, fruit, gay, gunsel, homo, homoerotic, homophile, homosexual, homosexualist, hoyden, invert, lesbian, mannish, nance, pansy, pathic, perverted, punk, queen, queer, romp, sapphic, sapphist, tomboy, transvestite, tribade, tribadistic, virago


There are several terms in the list that are unfamiliar to me, but I looked up amphierotic (underlined above) and found this definition which some of y'all just might find interesting.

amphierotic: from sex.lexis.com/Sex-Dictionsary
1. Said of a person whose bisexual orientation is predominantly homosexual .
2. A psychiatric disorder, so named by Hungarian psychoanalyst Sandor Ferenczi, for an individual who can conceive of himself, erotically, as male or female, or both at once.

It is possible that the "terms" butch and femme will become outdated, but I do not think the concepts will become outdated or such relationships will become outdated, unless all forms of the sexual binary become outdated.

Smooches
Keri

[iamkeri1]

I just want to make the point here, that the rejection of b-f people by "regular lesbians" has not ended. This is an email I got around two weeks ago from someone I was talking to on plentyoffish.com (a personals site) She had made the first contact, and we had been exchanging emails for about two weeks.

The headline of my ad on POF reads...
"Femme looking for....Well, you know"

Hey Keri
Thanx for taking the time to tell me what you were looking for and giving me a little info on where you are at.
It doesn't look like we are looking for the same thing though. As I said, I'm not into the B/F thing or any roles. I'm just me and am looking for another plain lesbian to just hang out with and maybe do some activities.
So it was good emailing you but I'm thinking we should just part ways.
I wish you the best of luck and hope you meet your dream lover.

I mean, I had Femme as the first word in my headline, why did she contact me in the first place if she was not interested in a femme? Also she did not "get" that I also am just me, and that I don't play roles either. A quandary for me, but fortunately not a painful one.

I do not think regular lesbians have grown to be any more accepting of femmes or the b-f dynamic. I think b-f people have come out of hiding. I think there are two separate plains of existence, maybe more than two, but I don't think they mix well. Also I would like to say that I am not using the word lesbian in any prejorative way. I love the word lesbian. To me it is our history, our evolution, our birthplace. I'm just using it to illustrate the separate cultures. Hopefully some day we will come to co-exist and comingle easily, but right now I think that is mostly not happening.

Smooches
Keri

[SuperFemme]

Keri, I guess I read that persons email quite differently. She said she was not into B/F OR any roles. Not calling B/F roles. Your opening lline wasn't clear. You didn't say you were looking for a Butch, just looking for "Well, you know".

I'm not picking on you. I just wonder how fair it is to say that Lesbians are rejecting us based on a personals site exchange. A Lesbian told you that you two weren't a fit, and didn't do it in a mean spirited way IMO.

This whole post is because we have MANY Lesbians on this site. I think we have to be careful not to make the personal the general. :cheerleader:

[Kosmo]

Hey Kosmo,

You mention that this would make for an interesting social study - there's at least one such study out there that addressing this topic.

The reference is

Smith, C. S., & Stillman, S. (2002). Butch/Femme in the personal advertisements of lesbians. Journal of Lesbian Studies, 6, 45-51.

Here's a summary of the results:

75% of the ads did not self-identify as femme or butch
14% self-identified as femme and 11% as butch
66% did not mention femme or butch in terms of who they sought
In the ads that specified seeking femme or butch, 26% sought femme and 5% butch, with a few explicitly indicating "no butches"
Those who self-identified as femme sought femme partners 56% versus butch partners 18% (the remaining 26% did not specify)
10% of those who did not identify as butch or femme specified wanting a femme partner; none specified wanting a butch partner
Of those who self-identified as butch requested femme partners 74% and butch partners 7%


Like you, when I used to read personal ads in gay/lesbian papers I always ended up pissed off. Rarely did anyone specify looking for a butch, and it seemed like many folks specifically stated no butches. At this point I didn't have a butch-femme community so basically figured there was no one out there who wanted a butch. When I became involved in my first online-community and found folks who actually wanted folks like me - well, I can't really even describe the relief I felt.

-Wicket

Hey Wicket,

You should be the official BFP researcher. :bowdown:

[iamkeri1]

Thanks for the response SF. Perhaps I did not make clear enough what I was trying to say. In our emails we were talking about doing activities together, not being lovers.

I'm just me and am looking for another plain lesbian to just hang out with and maybe do some activities.

She didn't even want to have a femme companion to hang out with. Was I hurt by this? No. Was I perplexed? Indeed. Also a tiny bit insulted. Perhaps I did generalize somewhat from this particular experience. However it has been an expereince that has been repeated frequently in my life, though not recently ... since recently, I was married to an FTM and was perceived as straight. (A subject for another thread.)
Smooches,
Keri

Oh and I want to add one more thing. Yes indeed, we do have MANY lesbians on this site, But I hope, since it is called butchfemmeplanet, that we do not have ANY lesbians on board who would reject someone for friendship just because she was a femme.

[/COLOR][/SIZE][/B]Keri, I guess I read that persons email quite differently. She said she was not into B/F OR any roles. Not calling B/F roles. Your opening lline wasn't clear. You didn't say you were looking for a Butch, just looking for "Well, you know".

I'm not picking on you. I just wonder how fair it is to say that Lesbians are rejecting us based on a personals site exchange. A Lesbian told you that you two weren't a fit, and didn't do it in a mean spirited way IMO.

This whole post is because we have MANY Lesbians on this site. I think we have to be careful not to make the personal the general. :cheerleader:

[kittygrrl]

i think if youre in the younger crowd you want to make your own and distinguish yourself as somehow different, maybe even better :) For those of us who are old school using those terms resonate a particular unique perspective..butch/femme work just fine, why change perfection?..:buzz cut:

[Darth Denkay]

I am very happy to report that amphierotic is no longer considered a psychiatric disorder. The DSM, which is the bible of sorts for mental disease does not include it, which means at some point it was removed. Kind of like homosexuality was removed in 1973.




There are several terms in the list that are unfamiliar to me, but I looked up amphierotic (underlined above) and found this definition which some of y'all just might find interesting.

amphierotic: from sex.lexis.com/Sex-Dictionsary
1. Said of a person whose bisexual orientation is predominantly homosexual .
2. A psychiatric disorder, so named by Hungarian psychoanalyst Sandor Ferenczi, for an individual who can conceive of himself, erotically, as male or female, or both at once.

It is possible that the "terms" butch and femme will become outdated, but I do not think the concepts will become outdated or such relationships will become outdated, unless all forms of the sexual binary become outdated.

Smooches
Keri

Thanks Kosmo!

To be honest, I actually do consider myself an "official" BF researcher. When I was working on my master's degree I was fortunate enough to do research with a prof who is femme, and we did a lot of research on butch-femme - resulted in 5 published articles. So as for academic studies on B/F I keep up with what's out there (although there isn't a great deal). In any case, I am very familiar with the B-F research that has been done.

Hey Wicket,

You should be the official BFP researcher. :bowdown:

[Victoria]

What is a femme or butch?

A femme is a feminine lesbian. A butch is a masculine lesbian... am I not correct?

Of the entire LGBT community, I've come to believe that lesbians have the most categories. BTW, if anyone could enlighten me on categories associated with gay males, please do.

Of those "labels," categories, or names, I've heard of the butch, soft butch, stone butch, stud, power dyke, femme, lipstick lesbian, gothic femme, blue-jean femme, etc.

I'm not sure I am taking a stand on this topic. All I'm trying to prove is that we are all lesbians or homosexuals at the core, no matter what levels of masculinity or femininity are present within us. Eventually, we will once again realize that. In the olden days, or to be precise, in the time of Sappho or Shakespeare, there were none such categories.

I feel like we are like music. Like how metal is differentiated into various brands: Heavy metal, Death metal, Black metal, Hair metal, Thrash metal... well I suppose it's due to the developing masses of humankind.

[turasultana]

What is a femme or butch?

A femme is a feminine lesbian. A butch is a masculine lesbian... am I not correct?



Those definitions may work for some people, but not for me or a lot of folks on this site. I'm femme, but i'd never refer to myself as a lesbian, my partner who is butch, would NEVER call himself a lesbian. It's weird just typing that. :) makes me all squicky....

[NotAnAverageGuy]

Don't forget the terms Transgendered, Transsexual, etc.

[Victoria]

Those definitions may work for some people, but not for me or a lot of folks on this site. I'm femme, but i'd never refer to myself as a lesbian, my partner who is butch, would NEVER call himself a lesbian. It's weird just typing that. :) makes me all squicky....


Please keep in mind that I am young and haven't had much experience befriending other LGBT people. This is just my two cents, but I find that definition really wierd. There's just too many categories.

Then, what is the true meaning of butch and femme? I mean, universal meaning, or scientific?

Don't forget the terms Transgendered, Transsexual, etc.
Of course. Transgender = one who doesn't identify (gender-wise) as male or female, and/or shares elements of both genders... right? I'd consider myself transgender... but I don't. It's all just too complicated... I don't know. And of course transsexual... and there is such thing as transsexual lesbians... however, if I knew a male who switched to being a female, I'd refer to that person as a regular female regardless without the use of that word transsexual. Just my two cents.

[NotAnAverageGuy]

Transgendered is a huge umbrella term that is used, everyone on this site embraces their ID or label in their own way.

[Corkey]

Please keep in mind that I am young and haven't had much experience befriending other LGBT people. This is just my two cents, but I find that definition really wierd. There's just too many categories.

Then, what is the true meaning of butch and femme? I mean, universal meaning, or scientific?


Of course. Transgender = one who doesn't identify (gender-wise) as male or female, and/or shares elements of both genders... right? I'd consider myself transgender... but I don't. It's all just too complicated... I don't know. And of course transsexual... and there is such thing as transsexual lesbians... however, if I knew a male who switched to being a female, I'd refer to that person as a regular female regardless without the use of that word transsexual. Just my two cents.


I'm gonna try to be gentile here. Some of us, myself included, do not consider ourselves lesbians. How we, specifically me, identify isn't up to anyone else to figure out. I am a human first, not a label, and certainly not a lesbian, of whom there are aplenty here. Welcome to the site, I hope you do a lot of reading.

[Blue_Daddy-O]

What is a femme or butch?

A femme is a feminine lesbian. A butch is a masculine lesbian... am I not correct?

Of the entire LGBT community, I've come to believe that lesbians have the most categories. BTW, if anyone could enlighten me on categories associated with gay males, please do.

Of those "labels," categories, or names, I've heard of the butch, soft butch, stone butch, stud, power dyke, femme, lipstick lesbian, gothic femme, blue-jean femme, etc.

I'm not sure I am taking a stand on this topic. All I'm trying to prove is that we are all lesbians or homosexuals at the core, no matter what levels of masculinity or femininity are present within us. Eventually, we will once again realize that. In the olden days, or to be precise, in the time of Sappho or Shakespeare, there were none such categories.

I feel like we are like music. Like how metal is differentiated into various brands: Heavy metal, Death metal, Black metal, Hair metal, Thrash metal... well I suppose it's due to the developing masses of humankind.










Welcome Victoria...Yes please do more reading or ask more questions.

I am not a Lesbian either!

You will find many here who aren't Lesbians (do NOT identify that way) and many here who are.

So you are wrong. We are not ALL Lesbians here and please respect that. This is your belief and reality not that of everyone here. With more understanding, maybe that will change for you. I am also Male-Identified. It would be like someone arguing with me when I say: I am not a girl. And they respond with: Yes you are. and I say: No I'm not. And they say: Yes you are.

Everyone loves being around those who respect us and not so much with those who don't.

[Jett]

Those definitions may work for some people, but not for me or a lot of folks on this site. I'm femme, but i'd never refer to myself as a lesbian, my partner who is butch, would NEVER call himself a lesbian. It's weird just typing that. :) makes me all squicky....

I find it interesting that you acknowledge there's is a lot of butch femme lesbians on the site (and there is)... and then in the next breath use "weird" and "makes me all squicky"...

Perhaps since we all expect our ID's respected, we might extend the same kindness to others.

[Gemme]

What is a femme or butch?

A femme is a feminine lesbian. A butch is a masculine lesbian... am I not correct?

Of the entire LGBT community, I've come to believe that lesbians have the most categories. BTW, if anyone could enlighten me on categories associated with gay males, please do.

Of those "labels," categories, or names, I've heard of the butch, soft butch, stone butch, stud, power dyke, femme, lipstick lesbian, gothic femme, blue-jean femme, etc.

I'm not sure I am taking a stand on this topic. All I'm trying to prove is that we are all lesbians or homosexuals at the core, no matter what levels of masculinity or femininity are present within us. Eventually, we will once again realize that. In the olden days, or to be precise, in the time of Sappho or Shakespeare, there were none such categories.

I feel like we are like music. Like how metal is differentiated into various brands: Heavy metal, Death metal, Black metal, Hair metal, Thrash metal... well I suppose it's due to the developing masses of humankind.



As mentioned by a few people already, not everyone is a lesbian. I'm not, though I am femme. I identify as a Queer Stone Femme Girl. It took me many years to come to this point, so be patient in learning what works for you as well as others. Research will be your friend. Ask honest questions and you will get honest answers. Tolerance and acceptance is the key.

The part I've underlined is something you will just have to accept as not being able to do. Lesbian does not equal homosexual. Butch and femme does not equal lesbian. So, there's no way to "prove" this theory since it's false.

Oh, not to throw a bolt into your machinery, but not only are there Transgendered and Transexual individuals, there are Transensual folks as well. You are right; there are many terms and categories and subcategories for our community. Each one connects with a particular person and how they live and love, and there is a lot of love in our community, so there has to be a way to identify that particular love and the person who feels it.

Patience, grasshoppa.

I wish you luck in your journey.

[turasultana]

I find it interesting that you acknowledge there's is a lot of butch femme lesbians on the site (and there is)... and then in the next breath use "weird" and "makes me all squicky"...

Perhaps since we all expect our ID's respected, we might extend the same kindness to others.

I was only referring to how it felt to call MY partner that since it doesn't fit him at all. Not anyone else on the site. If that was misinterpreted or said in a way that implied anything other than that I apologize.

[Cyclopea]

As mentioned by a few people already, not everyone is a lesbian. I'm not, though I am femme. I identify as a Queer Stone Femme Girl. It took me many years to come to this point, so be patient in learning what works for you as well as others. Research will be your friend. Ask honest questions and you will get honest answers. Tolerance and acceptance is the key.

The part I've underlined is something you will just have to accept as not being able to do. Lesbian does not equal homosexual. Butch and femme does not equal lesbian. So, there's no way to "prove" this theory since it's false.

Oh, not to throw a bolt into your machinery, but not only are there Transgendered and Transexual individuals, there are Transensual folks as well. You are right; there are many terms and categories and subcategories for our community. Each one connects with a particular person and how they live and love, and there is a lot of love in our community, so there has to be a way to identify that particular love and the person who feels it.

Patience, grasshoppa.

I wish you luck in your journey.

Lesbian does = Homosexual.
This is my view AS A LESBIAN.

[Blue_Daddy-O]

Of course. Transgender = one who doesn't identify (gender-wise) as male or female, and/or shares elements of both genders... right? Just my two cents.


And you would be wrong again on the meaning of Transgender.

I am Transgendered. I am Male-Identified (as I stated above) not Female-Identified. I do not identify as both.

A Transgendered person can identify as either Male or Female, equal or varying degrees of both or neither. One Gender, Gender Fluid or Genderless.

The definition of Transgender is: One who identifies with a gender they were not assigned/born with (Sex at birth).

[Blue_Daddy-O]

Of course. Transgender = one who doesn't identify (gender-wise) as male or female, and/or shares elements of both genders... right? Just my two cents.


And more food for thought before I go for the night: To confuse you even more, which we love to do that around here...LoL... There are Femmes who are Female-Identified who also identify as Transgendered. For them, they have accepted Femme as their gender identity. Also, they may or may not identify as Lesbians.

[Jett]

And more food for thought before I go for the night: To confuse you even more, which we love to do that around here...LoL... There are Femmes who are Female-Identified who also identify as Transgendered. For them, they have accepted Femme as their gender identity. Also, they may or may not identify as Lesbians.

...and there are male ID butches who identify as lesbians and date other butches... and and and... variety is the spice of life eh? ;)

----------------------------

Victoria welcome to the forums... there's plenty to explore and read about to get a feel for the place for yourself too.

We're alot more than just ID's... we're alot of good peeps also.

Again welcome,
Metro

[PapaC]

I was totally going to do the whole "variety is the spice of life" post, but you beat me to it, Metro. :)

and yes, welcome to the site, Victoria.


...and there are male ID butches who identify as lesbians and date other butches... and and and... variety is the spice of life eh? ;)

----------------------------
Victoria welcome to the forums... there's plenty to explore and read about to get a feel for the place for yourself too.

We're alot more than just ID's... we're alot of good peeps also.

Again welcome,
Metro

[Blue_Daddy-O]

And Yes, you would be preachin' to the choir here! LoLoL! But good you threw out another example for Victoria's enlightenment and anyone else who has a limited definition of Transgendered!


...and there are male ID butches who identify as lesbians and date other butches... and and and... variety is the spice of life eh? ;)

Again welcome,
Metro

I find it interesting that you acknowledge there's is a lot of butch femme lesbians on the site (and there is)... and then in the next breath use "weird" and "makes me all squicky"...

Perhaps since we all expect our ID's respected, we might extend the same kindness to others.

Met, I don't find Turasultana explaining "being called Lesbian makes me feel weird" to be a knock at being a Lesbian. It wouldn't be any different than me saying "being called a girl makes me feel all weird and freaky". Although, that wouldn't be my verbiage, I'm more likely to say, "It doesn't feel right to me". Yet it does make me feel weird and freaky.

Why does it feel disrespectful to you?

[QueenofQueens]

And Yes, you would be preachin' to the choir here! LoLoL! But good you threw out another example for Victoria's enlightenment and anyone else who has a limited definition of Transgendered!






Met, I don't find Turasultana explaining "being called Lesbian makes me feel weird" to be a knock at being a Lesbian. It wouldn't be any different than me saying "being called a girl makes me feel all weird and freaky". Although, that wouldn't be my verbage, I'm more likey to say, "It doesn't feel right to me". Yet it does make me feel weird and freaky.

Why does it feel desrespectful to you?

Hey Blue, I know you're addressing Met, but as a lesbian I'd like to answer this too. I'll use Tura's post as an example below, but I'd like to make it clear that I'm not singling her out intentionally.
That said, there's a big difference between saying "I don't like chocolate" and saying "Chocolate is disgusting". There's an even bigger difference between saying "Chocolate is disgusting" in a non specific context and saying "Chocolate is disgusting" in a venue known to be frequented by chocolate lovers.
When a non lesbian says "Lesbianism is freaky or squicky" within a lesbian friendly venue where there are many lesbians who feel quite opposed to that sentiment, it's at best thoughtless and callous and at worst homophobic (whether it's an internal or external manifestation of homophobia is up for debate).
I have no problem with Tura's (or anyone else's) identity or gender expressions, nor their feelings about who they are within the context of their own lived experience. What is hurtful is how my gender identity and sexual preference are summarily dismissed via pejorative language. I see no viable reasons for any of us to define ourselves in negative terms, as that almost always occurs at someone else's expense.

[Blue_Daddy-O]

Hey Blue, I know you're addressing Met, but as a lesbian I'd like to answer this too. I'll use Tura's post as an example below, but I'd like to make it clear that I'm not singling her out intentionally.
That said, there's a big difference between saying "I don't like chocolate" and saying "Chocolate is disgusting". There's an even bigger difference between saying "Chocolate is disgusting" in a non specific context and saying "Chocolate is disgusting" in a venue known to be frequented by chocolate lovers.
When a non lesbian says "Lesbianism is freaky or squicky" within a lesbian friendly venue where there are many lesbians who feel quite opposed to that sentiment, it's at best thoughtless and callous and at worst homophobic (whether it's an internal or external manifestation of homophobia is up for debate).
I have no problem with Tura's (or anyone else's) identity or gender expressions, nor their feelings about who they are within the context of their own lived experience. What is hurtful is how my gender identity and sexual preference are summarily dismissed via pejorative language. I see no viable reasons for any of us to define ourselves in negative terms, as that almost always occurs at someone else's expense.


I'm femme, but i'd never refer to myself as a lesbian, my partner who is butch, would NEVER call himself a lesbian. It's weird just typing that. :) makes me all squicky....

I am interested to hear from anyone who identifies as a Lesbian who also finds the statement offensive. So Thank You for explaining to me how it makes you feel as well.

Yes, QueenofQueens, I completely understand when a person says that Lesbianism is disgusting, sick and perverted that this would be hurtful. The intent is derogatory, judgmental and prejudice. Although, I don't identify as a Lesbian this would be hurtful to me as well because there are many I love that do identify as a Lesbian and I have also identified as a Lesbian myself. But even if I didn't know a Lesbian or had never been one, it would still be hurtful to me to watch/hear/see a person put someone else down in this manner and not be accepting of another person's differences. And not be concerned with how their words would make someone else feel. I am not one to sit by and watch. I would have alot to say to anyone who would treat another person that way.

When I'm called a Lesbian it feels unnatural. It doesn't feel right. It feels weird. It's the same to me as being called a girl. Not because either are disgusting to me, but because I do not relate to being either one.

I would have asked Turasultana's intent before I assumed she was stating her feelings in a derogatory way.

If Turasultana feels similar to the way I do, it would be unfair for someone to automatically assume that because I don't like being called a Lesbian, that I find being one is disgusting or a negative.

When I read what Turasultana wrote, I could relate. As I'm sure there are others who do as well. And I'm sure there are also others who would take offense.

Where is the line drawn? Are we not allowed to say that being called a Lesbian makes us feel a negative emotion __________ (fill in the blank)?

QueenofQueens, do you feel that Turasultana was coming from a derogatory place, as if to call Lesbians disgusting?

Turasultana, maybe you could explain to use more of why you feel the way you do?

This is all so very interesting to me. The division and misunderstandings. I do believe it is very good for us to talk about it and to understand where we are all coming from. There is more I want to say...but my brain is getting very very tired and it's way past my bedtime and I can't write or think much more...LoL.

But I would like to continue this discussion tomorrow and really understand better.

[WILDCAT]

I SO feel that the recent "BUMP" in this thread was meant to be inflammatory.

Good luck folks, but please be careful to not be set up to turn on each other.

THAT is my queer GUT feeling here.

*Some things just seem to be MUCH TOO CLEVER in an attempt to "appear confused", ya know? I personally didn't appreciate the "directness" with/in the assumptions. Totally instigative in my way of thinking. (And disrespecting every one of us, queer, how we ID, transgengered, etc...)

PEACE
WILDCAT

:stillheart:

[turasultana]

As I stated, and maybe I said it in a way that only made sense in my brain at midnite, but I just meant that it felt weird to ever use the word lesbian in relation to my partner who is totally not one as far as his identity. i didn't mean more than that. It was just felt disconcerting to me. i was being flip... bad word choice got misinterpreted. That is all.


I am interested to hear from anyone who identifies as a Lesbian who also finds the statement offensive. So Thank You for explaining to me how it makes you feel as well.

Yes, QueenofQueens, I completely understand when a person says that Lesbianism is disgusting, sick and perverted that this would be hurtful. The intent is derogatory, judgmental and prejudice. Although, I don't identify as a Lesbian this would be hurtful to me as well because there are many I love that do identify as a Lesbian and I have also identified as a Lesbian myself. But even if I didn't know a Lesbian or had never been one, it would still be hurtful to me to watch/hear/see a person put someone else down in this manner and not be accepting of another person's differences. And not be concerned with how their words would make someone else feel. I am not one to sit by and watch. I would have alot to say to anyone who would treat another person that way.

When I'm called a Lesbian it feels unnatural. It doesn't feel right. It feels weird. It's the same to me as being called a girl. Not because either are disgusting to me, but because I do not relate to being either one.

I would have asked Turasultana's intent before I assumed she was stating her feelings in a derogatory way.

If Turasultana feels similar to the way I do, it would be unfair for someone to automatically assume that because I don't like being called a Lesbian, that I find being one is disgusting or a negative.

When I read what Turasultana wrote, I could relate. As I'm sure there are others who do as well. And I'm sure there are also others who would take offense.

Where is the line drawn? Are we not allowed to say that being called a Lesbian makes us feel a negative emotion __________ (fill in the blank)?

QueenofQueens, do you feel that Turasultana was coming from a derogatory place, as if to call Lesbians disgusting?

Turasultana, maybe you could explain to use more of why you feel the way you do?

This is all so very interesting to me. The division and misunderstandings. I do believe it is very good for us to talk about it and to understand where we are all coming from. There is more I want to say...but my brain is getting very very tired and it's way past my bedtime and I can't write or think much more...LoL.

But I would like to continue this discussion tomorrow and really understand better.

[NJFemmie]

I would try not to find statements like that offensive.

But then again, it was found offensive when I have said "I can't be with someone who doesn't ID as a lesbian because I don't want to feel like I am in a heterosexual relationship."

It opened up a nasty can of ass biting sand worms.
AND I've got the bite marks to prove it.

Oh yeah, and I am a femme lesbian.

Mantra: Live and let live. I think if people spent less time defending and more time enjoying and learning each others differences, there would be less crossed lines.

[Jess]

And you would be wrong again on the meaning of Transgender.

I am Transgendered. I am Male-Identified (as I stated above) not Female-Identified. I do not identify as both.

A Transgendered person can identify as either Male or Female, equal or varying degrees of both or neither. One Gender, Gender Fluid or Genderless.

The definition of Transgender is: One who identifies with a gender they were not assigned/born with (Sex at birth).


I have heard transgendered described or defined as Victoria stated, as well. That it is a more spiritual based "gender" view and like some define "butch" or "femme" is in fact a third non-binary gender.

I think sometimes the liberties we ( society) take with language and the freedom to interpret "words" has become so easy to do and culture moves so quickly anymore, it is truly just hard to keep up.

Some folks place a "negative" connotation on the word "lesbian" , because it became viewed as the "made for men porn girl on girl" action. It got a bad rap within our own community, because we allowed it to. Ask five people to define "stone butch" and you may get five different variations.

I try not to get defensive these days when someone says ( or types) something that doesn't mesh with my internal dictionary, because with all of the influences on that dictionary, the very definitions may evolve and they may end up coming full circle if I stick around and watch.

I still have a lot of things I don't quite understand regarding gender choice/ expression relating to sexual choice/ expression and hell, I may never totally "get it" because it varies so from individual to individual. What I have come to understand, is that it is not for me to "judge" . Also that some folks are just easier to ask questions to than others. It takes a while to learn to speak the same language when it changes so much either geographically or within different "generations".

[Dragonfly]

I am not old or young and am smack in the middle. I only wanted to add my opinion. It has been insanely difficault for this midwestern hick here to filter through all the WRONG stereotypes I grew up accepting as "definitions" of what butch and femme meant. I am FINALLY getting a good handle on them and now someone wants to toss em in the trash and pick new ones??!?!? UH UH... just think about what that is saying.... just when the average non queer person is getting enough exposure to BEGIN to understand who and what we are standing for we go and CHANGE all the words they normally misunderstand and are starting to finally "get it".... Sounds like we can have both old and new whats the big deal. Add them as new ones dont replace them for the original ones!


** Just me imagining trying to explain that to my mom and pop who are just finally starting to "get it" and I dont wanna go back to hearing my dad wish me a "Happy Father's Day" in his effort to be accepting of me. Bless his reformed and once abusive heart. We have come to far to go back to square one. I can imagine explaining there are new terms that people ID with and they are >>>> etc.

[Jett]

As I stated, and maybe I said it in a way that only made sense in my brain at midnite, but I just meant that it felt weird to ever use the word lesbian in relation to my partner who is totally not one as far as his identity. i didn't mean more than that. It was just felt disconcerting to me. i was being flip... bad word choice got misinterpreted. That is all.

I didn't misunderstand turasultana, I just felt the language used could have been better chosen as not to create misunderstanding... as acknowledged here yourself. Perhaps some don't feel the subtle knock the way that someone who identifies as lesbian might from a statement such as that (more the "makes me all squicky" than the "weird" part). But anyway I thought QofQ explained that very well.

Just an FYI, these posts are not from me as a moderator, but as a BFP member who wishes we all (including myself) would be more careful when we casually use inflammatory words when speaking of other peoples ID's. We don't need to always agree or think alike (and that's good) but we can try to make everyone feel as welcome and relaxed as we'd want to feel ourselves.

Metro

[NotAnAverageGuy]

Wow there is a lot of education going on in this thread, glad to see more people posting

[hippieflowergirl]

SNIPI think these explorations and deconstructions are part of the process of our queer evolution, but to be dismissive of one's history and those who came before is short-sighted and arrogant.

Still, I disbelieve in the demise. If the term doesn't fit, don't wear it.



perhaps it's a genetic flaw that human-kind feels compelled to disregard its past. it always has. figuring out how to evolve voluntarily...now there's a project.

i join you in your willing suspension of disbelief. i refuse to cast my chosen label aside.

i wont! i wont! :watereyes: i love my little label. it's mine!

i wanted it,

i found it,

i'm keeping it!

:overreaction:

ahem.... (smoothing hair)
carry on.

[hippieflowergirl]

What is a femme or butch?

A femme is a feminine lesbian. A butch is a masculine lesbian... am I not correct?

Of the entire LGBT community, I've come to believe that lesbians have the most categories. BTW, if anyone could enlighten me on categories associated with gay males, please do.

Of those "labels," categories, or names, I've heard of the butch, soft butch, stone butch, stud, power dyke, femme, lipstick lesbian, gothic femme, blue-jean femme, etc.

I'm not sure I am taking a stand on this topic. All I'm trying to prove is that we are all lesbians or homosexuals at the core, no matter what levels of masculinity or femininity are present within us. Eventually, we will once again realize that. In the olden days, or to be precise, in the time of Sappho or Shakespeare, there were none such categories.

I feel like we are like music. Like how metal is differentiated into various brands: Heavy metal, Death metal, Black metal, Hair metal, Thrash metal... well I suppose it's due to the developing masses of humankind.




forgive me...i would prefer not to be lumped into anyone's "proof" of anything. at "the "core" i am self-defined and not other-defined and at that core i am most certainly NOT a "lesbian". i am a femme. that is the gender that is stamped on the cells that make me. the adjunct to that innate identity, in my case, is queer.

we are all labeled, a necessity based on the limitations of humanity, language and cultural paradigm. we adopt some labels because they are often the easiest/only way to fit ourselves into various environments in a way which is understandable to the other inhabitants. i do it when absolutely necessary...in order to begin a dialogue for example. once that conversation is begun, the word lesbian is no longer one i use to describe myself. i have no issue with the term. it is simply not mine. it would be like calling myself Eva....when my name is Kathlene. Eva is a lovely name, i share some traits with many Eva's. but i am not Eva. i am Kathlene.

Sappho and Shakespeare may not have used our contemporary vernacular but it's only logical to presume they had their own ways of understanding the limitations and boxes of their respective cultural environments.

you're off the hook having to prove anything for my benefit. the music analogy was cool though.

[hippieflowergirl]

Please keep in mind that I am young and haven't had much experience befriending other LGBT people. This is just my two cents, but I find that definition really wierd. There's just too many categories.

two cents is not enough. lack of tolerance (at worst) and lack of information (at best) has a larger price tag. do you approach non-queer people with semi-invalidation of their lives and identity experiences?

Then, what is the true meaning of butch and femme? I mean, universal meaning, or scientific?

"universal meaning"? "scientific"?....of what please? a human being? define "Victoria". what does it mean scientifically? what single definition does the rest of the planet use to indicate "Victoria" to the global population?


It's all just too complicated... I don't know.



i doubt this is true. but if it really is "all just too complicated" please do stop trying to simplify it. you are an intelligent person, perfectly capable of making sense of a great many difficult things. this is no different. humankind is made more beautiful by it's complexity...not diminished by it.


Of course. Transgender = one who doesn't identify (gender-wise) as male or female, and/or shares elements of both genders... right? I'd consider myself transgender... but I don't........And of course transsexual... and there is such thing as transsexual lesbians... however, if I knew a male who switched to being a female, I'd refer to that person as a regular female regardless without the use of that word transsexual. Just my two cents.


"of course" :canoworms:

again, two cents isnt enough, not for the assumed privilege of defining several billion people in such a narrow way. your money would be better spent learning how each individual defines themselves...rather than having decided ahead of time what and whom each of us is.



Oh, not to throw a bolt into your machinery, but not only are there Transgendered and Transexual individuals, there are Transensual folks as well. You are right; there are many terms and categories and subcategories for our community. Each one connects with a particular person and how they live and love, and there is a lot of love in our community, so there has to be a way to identify that particular love and the person who feels it.




thank you for being so articulate Gemme. (breathing deeply) i was feeling myself in danger. :ohm:

[Gemme]

Lesbian does = Homosexual.
This is my view AS A LESBIAN.

Not always. I was looking at it like a word problem. I'm homosexual, by textbook definition, but I am not a lesbian. Therefore, not all homosexuals are lesbians. So, no...for me....homosexual does not equal lesbian.

For you it does, but for me it does not. And if all parts of the equation do not agree, then it cannot be true. True meaning always true, in every situation.

[Gemme]

two cents is not enough. lack of tolerance (at worst) and lack of information (at best) has a larger price tag. do you approach non-queer people with semi-invalidation of their lives and identity experiences?

I love this question.


i doubt this is true. but if it really is "all just too complicated" please do stop trying to simplify it. you are an intelligent person, perfectly capable of making sense of a great many difficult things. this is no different. humankind is made more beautiful by it's complexity...not diminished by it.


This I actually disagree with a bit. Some folks need to break things down into bite-size pieces of information for themselves. There's nothing wrong with that, of course. Our community is complex. We, as humans, are complex. Love is complex. Some people need to bring some simplicity to their lives in order to lie down with the complexity of it all.

Note: this is not in relation to what you were responding to....just my thoughts as I was reading your responses. :)

"of course" :canoworms:

again, two cents isnt enough, not for the assumed privilege of defining several billion people in such a narrow way. your money would be better spent learning how each individual defines themselves...rather than having decided ahead of time what and whom each of us is.

What good are first impressions if an impression has already been formed before you meet someone? Good point.


thank you for being so articulate Gemme. (breathing deeply) i was feeling myself in danger. :ohm:

(((hugs)))

Breathe in, breathe out....breathe in, breathe out....breathe in, breathe out...

[Cyclopea]

Not always. I was looking at it like a word problem. I'm homosexual, by textbook definition, but I am not a lesbian. Therefore, not all homosexuals are lesbians. So, no...for me....homosexual does not equal lesbian.

For you it does, but for me it does not. And if all parts of the equation do not agree, then it cannot be true. True meaning always true, in every situation.

Looking at what like a "word problem"?
As a english speaker, lesbian=homosexual. A female homosexual is by definition a lesbian. Of course she can call herself whatever she wants if she is not speaking the english language.

__________________________________________________ _____
Les⋅bi⋅an  [lez-bee-uhn]
–adjective
1. of or pertaining to Lesbos.
2. (usually lowercase) of, pertaining to, or characteristic of female homosexuality.
3. (usually lowercase) erotic; sensual.
–noun
4. an inhabitant of Lesbos.
5. (usually lowercase) a female homosexual.
Origin:
1595–1605; < L Lesbi(us) Lesbian (< Gk Lésbios, equiv. to Lésb(os) Lesbos + -ios adj. suffix) + -an; (defs. 2, 5) alluding to the poet Sappho of Lesbos, whose verse deals largely with her emotional relationships with other women
Dictionary.com Unabridged
Based on the Random House Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2009.

les·bi·an (lěz'bē-ən)
n. A woman whose sexual orientation is to women.
adj. Of, relating to, or being a lesbian. See Usage Note at gay.

[From the putative homosexuality of Sappho, lyric poet of Lesbos.]
Les·bi·an (lěz'bē-ən)
n.
A native or inhabitant of Lesbos.

The ancient Greek dialect of Lesbos.

adj. Of or relating to Lesbos.

[From Latin Lesbius, from Greek Lesbios, from Lesbos.]
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2009

Cultural Dictionary

lesbian

A homosexual woman. (See also gay.)

The American Heritage® New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third Edition
Copyright © 2005 by Houghton Mifflin Company.


Word Origin & History

lesbian (adj.)
1591, from L. Lesbius, from Gk. lesbios "of Lesbos," Gk. island in northeastern Aegean Sea, home of Sappho, great lyric poet whose erotic and romantic verse embraced women as well as men, hence meaning "relating to homosexual relations between women" (1890; lesbianism in this sense is attested from 1870) and the noun, first recorded 1925. Slang variant lez, les is from 1929; lesbo first attested 1940. Before this, the principal fig. use (common in 17c.) was lesbian rule (1601) a mason's rule of lead, of a type used on Lesbos, which could be bent to fit the curves of a molding; hence, "pliant morality or judgment."
"And this is the nature of the equitable, a correction of law where it is defective owing to its universality. ... For when the thing is indefinite the rule also is indefinite, like the leaden rule used in making the Lesbian moulding; the rule adapts itself to the shape of the stone and is not rigid, and so too the decree is adapted to the facts." [Aristotle, "Nicomachean Ethics"]
Online Etymology Dictionary, © 2001 Douglas Harper

Medical Dictionary
Main Entry: 1les·bi·an
Pronunciation: 'lez-bE-&n
Function: adjective
often capitalized : of or relating to homosexualitybetween females

Main Entry: 2lesbian
Function: noun
often capitalized : a female homosexual called also sapphic, sapphist
Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary, © 2002 Merriam-Webster, Inc.

Medical Dictionary
lesbian les·bi·an (lěz'bē-ən)
n.
A gay or homosexual woman. adj.
Of, relating to, or being a lesbian.

Synonym: Homosexual
:LGBTQFlag:

[dreadgeek]

There has been some discussion on the "other" site about whether or not the terms "Butch" and "Femme" are "antiquated" terms. Im curious as to what people think about this.
There were some thoughts about how the terms dont feel "accessible" to younger folks, folks of color, etc.


Thoughts?

Interesting. I'm black and I identify myself as a butch. I don't know what other term I would use. Stud doesn't particularly resonate with me and, despite my wife saying that I'm a "force of nature", aggressive doesn't feel accurate to me. This is ME, of course, I'm not talking about other black women. Now, I'm no longer a 'younger person' being middle-aged but I wonder if, in another 20 years, when the young folks now are my age will it once again be 'antiquated'. I remember when I was in my twenties, butch femme was antiquated and we were all 'beyond labels'. The refrain of my generation was "I don't believe in labels" which, to no great surprise, always disappeared as soon as the words "look at that cute butch (or femme) over there" and every head would turn and if it was a butch, no one was looking at the woman in the dress, heels with make-up. :)

Sometimes, when I hear that "X does not resonate with POC" I am moved to wonder "so, am I not a woman of color..." but that's a different conversation entirely.

Cheers
Aj

[Gemme]

Looking at what like a "word problem"?
As a english speaker, lesbian=homosexual. A female homosexual is by definition a lesbian. Of course she can call herself whatever she wants if she is not speaking the english language.

__________________________________________________ _____
Les⋅bi⋅an  [lez-bee-uhn]
–adjective
1. of or pertaining to Lesbos.
2. (usually lowercase) of, pertaining to, or characteristic of female homosexuality.
3. (usually lowercase) erotic; sensual.
–noun
4. an inhabitant of Lesbos.
5. (usually lowercase) a female homosexual.
Origin:
1595–1605; < L Lesbi(us) Lesbian (< Gk Lésbios, equiv. to Lésb(os) Lesbos + -ios adj. suffix) + -an; (defs. 2, 5) alluding to the poet Sappho of Lesbos, whose verse deals largely with her emotional relationships with other women
Dictionary.com Unabridged
Based on the Random House Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2009.

les·bi·an (lěz'bē-ən)
n. A woman whose sexual orientation is to women.
adj. Of, relating to, or being a lesbian. See Usage Note at gay.

[From the putative homosexuality of Sappho, lyric poet of Lesbos.]
Les·bi·an (lěz'bē-ən)
n.
A native or inhabitant of Lesbos.

The ancient Greek dialect of Lesbos.

adj. Of or relating to Lesbos.

[From Latin Lesbius, from Greek Lesbios, from Lesbos.]
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2009

Cultural Dictionary

lesbian

A homosexual woman. (See also gay.)

The American Heritage® New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third Edition
Copyright © 2005 by Houghton Mifflin Company.


Word Origin & History

lesbian (adj.)
1591, from L. Lesbius, from Gk. lesbios "of Lesbos," Gk. island in northeastern Aegean Sea, home of Sappho, great lyric poet whose erotic and romantic verse embraced women as well as men, hence meaning "relating to homosexual relations between women" (1890; lesbianism in this sense is attested from 1870) and the noun, first recorded 1925. Slang variant lez, les is from 1929; lesbo first attested 1940. Before this, the principal fig. use (common in 17c.) was lesbian rule (1601) a mason's rule of lead, of a type used on Lesbos, which could be bent to fit the curves of a molding; hence, "pliant morality or judgment."
"And this is the nature of the equitable, a correction of law where it is defective owing to its universality. ... For when the thing is indefinite the rule also is indefinite, like the leaden rule used in making the Lesbian moulding; the rule adapts itself to the shape of the stone and is not rigid, and so too the decree is adapted to the facts." [Aristotle, "Nicomachean Ethics"]
Online Etymology Dictionary, © 2001 Douglas Harper

Medical Dictionary
Main Entry: 1les·bi·an
Pronunciation: 'lez-bE-&n
Function: adjective
often capitalized : of or relating to homosexualitybetween females

Main Entry: 2lesbian
Function: noun
often capitalized : a female homosexual called also sapphic, sapphist
Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary, © 2002 Merriam-Webster, Inc.

Medical Dictionary
lesbian les·bi·an (lěz'bē-ən)
n.
A gay or homosexual woman. adj.
Of, relating to, or being a lesbian.

Synonym: Homosexual
:LGBTQFlag:

I never invalidated what you were saying. I was saying that using that vernacular in terms of myself and what I was explaining was not accurate. And it's not. It never will be, no matter how many people come in and say that it's right for them, it's not right for me, and that's what I was saying.

The term lesbian automatically means homosexual for you. Good. Looking at it the opposite way, for me, is not true. It's not good for me. As a homosexual, I am NOT automatically a lesbian. That's how I look at it.

[Cyclopea]

I never invalidated what you were saying. I was saying that using that vernacular in terms of myself and what I was explaining was not accurate. And it's not. It never will be, no matter how many people come in and say that it's right for them, it's not right for me, and that's what I was saying.

The term lesbian automatically means homosexual for you. Good. Looking at it the opposite way, for me, is not true. It's not good for me. As a homosexual, I am NOT automatically a lesbian. That's how I look at it.

Lesbian/Homosexual are Synonyms.
Not according to me, but according to the english language.
I guess whatever you are trying to say is going right over my head.
If I understand correctly, you are a homosexual who does not want the word homosexual applied to you? Thanks for trying to explain, I just am not getting it. Either way, I have tried 3 times to get clarification and I'm still not understanding so perhaps we ought to leave it there?

[dreadgeek]

I never invalidated what you were saying. I was saying that using that vernacular in terms of myself and what I was explaining was not accurate. And it's not. It never will be, no matter how many people come in and say that it's right for them, it's not right for me, and that's what I was saying.

The term lesbian automatically means homosexual for you. Good. Looking at it the opposite way, for me, is not true. It's not good for me. As a homosexual, I am NOT automatically a lesbian. That's how I look at it.

I'll admit, various theories of language/language games are not my forte' but I'm confused how this would work. You say you are a homosexual. I'm assuming you are female. Since the working definition of the word lesbian is female homosexual, I'm curious how you get from A to B. I recognize that you do not particularly care for the term 'lesbian' as it might be applied to you but I'm confused about how that changes the functional definition of the word.

It would be like my saying "I'm not black (or African-American)." Now, my genetic parents, as far as I am aware, were both black (I don't KNOW this). My phenotype (physical traits) are all within the range for black people. My skin is brown, my lips full, my nose broad, my hair kinky (tightly curled). By any objective measure, I fit the phenotypic description of 'black' (or African-American).

Perhaps an even better example would be if I claimed that I was not an English speaker. Although I do not read, write or speak any other language as fluent as English and it is my mother tongue, I am not an English speaker. That would, it seems to me, to stretch the common understanding of the phrase 'English speaker' beyond the breaking point. When we do that kind of violence to language we make communication more difficult than it already is.

Cheers
Aj

[Gemme]

Lesbian/Homosexual are Synonyms.
Not according to me, but according to the english language.
I guess whatever you are trying to say is going right over my head.
If I understand correctly, you are a homosexual who does not want the word homosexual applied to you? Thanks for trying to explain, I just am not getting it. Either way, I have tried 3 times to get clarification and I'm still not understanding so perhaps we ought to leave it there?

Fair enough. I don't expect to understand everything about everyone nor to have them understand everything about me. I do expect them to respect me without invalidation and I, in turn, try to do the same.

[NotAnAverageGuy]

Gemme, are you trying to say that you don't like the word lesbian being used to ID or label you?

I ask because I am kinda confused myself but I do get a bit about where you are coming from.

[Corkey]

For the sake of argument, lets say we don't use the english word for homosexual woman, and instead use, I don't know French or German, or Swedish. Do you now see that the word lesbian doesn't always have the same meaning?

I am Cherokee, I can guarantee you our language doesn't even use the word, much less it's meaning. I am Berdache', now you can go google the word if you like.

[Gemme]

I'll admit, various theories of language/language games are not my forte' but I'm confused how this would work. You say you are a homosexual. I'm assuming you are female. Since the working definition of the word lesbian is female homosexual, I'm curious how you get from A to B. I recognize that you do not particularly care for the term 'lesbian' as it might be applied to you but I'm confused about how that changes the functional definition of the word.

It would be like my saying "I'm not black (or African-American)." Now, my genetic parents, as far as I am aware, were both black (I don't KNOW this). My phenotype (physical traits) are all within the range for black people. My skin is brown, my lips full, my nose broad, my hair kinky (tightly curled). By any objective measure, I fit the phenotypic description of 'black' (or African-American).

Perhaps an even better example would be if I claimed that I was not an English speaker. Although I do not read, write or speak any other language as fluent as English and it is my mother tongue, I am not an English speaker. That would, it seems to me, to stretch the common understanding of the phrase 'English speaker' beyond the breaking point. When we do that kind of violence to language we make communication more difficult than it already is.

Cheers
Aj

Let me try another path, as my thought process hasn't had any success yet with anyone else.

I identify as a Queer Stone Femme Girl. By definition, I am homosexual. I'm not trying to bend the definition for homosexual (or lesbian either). I am NOT a lesbian. So....FOR ME....the terms lesbian and homosexual (in my life and in my bed) are not synonymous.

I understand what the dictionary says. I've spent 30ish years referencing it so I understand what Cyclopea was saying.

I'm saying....for me.....that if you flip it, like a word problem, it's not true for me. I'm not saying it can't be true for anyone or everyone else. I'm not trying to define anything for anyone else other than MYSELF.

All lesbians are homosexual (as noted in Cyclopea's copy and paste of a dictionary entry). True, right? Not all homosexuals are lesbians. There are homosexual men who are not lesbians as well as ME. I am not a lesbian, though I am homosexual by definition. Soooooo......homosexual does NOT equal lesbian, but lesbian DOES equal homosexual.

Clear as mud?

[Gemme]

Gemme, are you trying to say that you don't like the word lesbian being used to ID or label you?

I ask because I am kinda confused myself but I do get a bit about where you are coming from.

Yes, what you are asking is true. I do not identify as a lesbian. But no, that's not what I am saying.

I just posted something in response to AJ. When you read it, does my response make more sense now? If so, great. I can stop talking and feeling like everyone is speaking, like Corkey mentioned, a different language. To me, it's very simple. Obviously, and for once, I am apparently thinking along a higher plane (or different one altogether), maybe? I dunno.

If you still don't understand, I'll try again. It's important to me that I am understood. I don't have to be agreed with. Just understood.

[NotAnAverageGuy]

Yes, what you are asking is true. I do not identify as a lesbian. But no, that's not what I am saying.

I just posted something in response to AJ. When you read it, does my response make more sense now? If so, great. I can stop talking and feeling like everyone is speaking, like Corkey mentioned, a different language. To me, it's very simple. Obviously, and for once, I am apparently thinking along a higher plane, maybe? I dunno.

If you still don't understand, I'll try again. It's important to me that I am understood. I don't have to be agreed with. Just understood.

Yes i fully understand now and the response makes more sense

[dreadgeek]

Let me try another path, as my thought process hasn't had any success yet with anyone else.

I identify as a Queer Stone Femme Girl. By definition, I am homosexual. I'm not trying to bend the definition for homosexual (or lesbian either). I am NOT a lesbian. So....FOR ME....the terms lesbian and homosexual (in my life and in my bed) are not synonymous.

I understand what the dictionary says. I've spent 30ish years referencing it so I understand what Cyclopea was saying.

I'm saying....for me.....that if you flip it, like a word problem, it's not true for me. I'm not saying it can't be true for anyone or everyone else. I'm not trying to define anything for anyone else other than MYSELF.

All lesbians are homosexual (as noted in Cyclopea's copy and paste of a dictionary entry). True, right? Not all homosexuals are lesbians. There are homosexual men who are not lesbians as well as ME. I am not a lesbian, though I am homosexual by definition. Soooooo......homosexual does NOT equal lesbian, but lesbian DOES equal homosexual.

Clear as mud?

So since math is more my forte, you are saying that A is equal to B except where B is not equal A.

I am obviously missing something.

Cheers
Aj

[Cyclopea]

For the sake of argument, lets say we don't use the english word for homosexual woman, and instead use, I don't know French or German, or Swedish. Do you now see that the word lesbian doesn't always have the same meaning?

I am Cherokee, I can guarantee you our language doesn't even use the word, much less it's meaning. I am Berdache', now you can go google the word if you like.

I don't understand your argument that the fact that other languages exist somehow changes the meaning of the english word "lesbian".

[Gemme]

Yes i fully understand now and the response makes more sense

Awesome! :thumbsup:

Thank you.

So since math is more my forte, you are saying that A is equal to B except where B is not equal A.

I am obviously missing something.

Cheers
Aj

*laughs*

Math is so NOT my forte', but in a way, yes.

A = B always but B does not always = A.

Do you consider homosexual men to be lesbians? If so, there's no way I can explain this to you. If not, then there's hope. :)

[dreadgeek]

For the sake of argument, lets say we don't use the english word for homosexual woman, and instead use, I don't know French or German, or Swedish. Do you now see that the word lesbian doesn't always have the same meaning?

I am Cherokee, I can guarantee you our language doesn't even use the word, much less it's meaning. I am Berdache', now you can go google the word if you like.

Ummm, no, I don't see how you get there. Because you can take a word in French and translate it to a German word with the same meaning. There is a French word for dog. There is German word for dog. There is an English word for dog. These are not ALL the same word but they ALL reference a four-legged mammal of the species Canis familiaris descended from Canis lupus. The German word for dog is hund. The French word for dog is chien. The German word for dog does not map to the English word for, say, bird. The French word for dog does not map to, say, the German word for cat. Presuming that someone spoke all three languages, they would look at my pooch and could use hund, chien or dog at will and depending upon the listener's tongue, that person would know that they are talking about Angus (our Newfoundland/Bearded collie mix) and not Willow (our calico cat).

Cheers
Aj

[Cyclopea]

So since math is more my forte, you are saying that A is equal to B except where B is not equal A.

I am obviously missing something.

Cheers
Aj

This is exactly where I am at.
Lesbian=Female Homosexual, but not the reverse? Not getting it.

[dreadgeek]

Awesome! :thumbsup:

Thank you.



*laughs*

Math is so NOT my forte', but in a way, yes.

A = B always but B does not always = A.

Do you consider homosexual men to be lesbians? If so, there's no way I can explain this to you. If not, then there's hope. :)

No, I consider homosexual men to be gay men. All male homosexuals are, using the dictionary definition, gay men. All female homosexuals, again using the dictionary definition, are lesbians. Since our species is sexually dimorphic (not all one gender) homosexual would have to refer two both homosexual males (gay men) and homosexual females (lesbians). I am a bit confused how A = B if B is not = A.

If 2+3 = 5 then 3+2 must also equal five. If 3+2 equals, say, six, then 2+3 cannot equal five.

cheers
Aj

[NotAnAverageGuy]

Awesome! :thumbsup:

Thank you.



*laughs*

Math is so NOT my forte', but in a way, yes.

A = B always but B does not always = A.

Do you consider homosexual men to be lesbians? If so, there's no way I can explain this to you. If not, then there's hope. :)



No problem!!!! :duck:

[Corkey]

Not that I care one way or the other if you all get this, but just because english is spoken here doesn't mean the rest of the world uses it or speaks it. Therefore just because one uses lesbian for themselves, doesn't mean the rest of the world uses it as a label. On the Greek isle of Lesbos, the citizens want to change the word lesbian to not mean the women who come from Lesobs, because of the connotation. They find the usage of their island name harmful to them.
Now several folks have stated their belief that they aren't lesbian, that should be enough. Those who wish to be called lesbian are free to do so, but we all can agree to disagree. What we all need to remember is that each one of us are different individuals and therefore are using different descriptors of who we are. Simple yes?

[Gemme]

No, I consider homosexual men to be gay men. All male homosexuals are, using the dictionary definition, gay men. All female homosexuals, again using the dictionary definition, are lesbians. Since our species is sexually dimorphic (not all one gender) homosexual would have to refer two both homosexual males (gay men) and homosexual females (lesbians). I am a bit confused how A = B if B is not = A.

If 2+3 = 5 then 3+2 must also equal five. If 3+2 equals, say, six, then 2+3 cannot equal five.

cheers
Aj

So, how do you explain Transguys and girls using math?

I wish my identity were only that simple to come by, but it's not. As Corkey mentioned, there are many people on this site that do not id as a lesbian, for whatever reason.

Are you, through math, saying that their identities are invalid because it doesn't fit into a nice neat box, because that's what it's starting to feel like.


Not that I care one way or the other if you all get this, but just because english is spoken here doesn't mean the rest of the world uses it or speaks it. Therefore just because one uses lesbian for themselves, doesn't mean the rest of the world uses it as a label. On the Greek isle of Lesbos, the citizens want to change the word lesbian to not mean the women who come from Lesobs, because of the connotation. They find the usage of their island name harmful to them.
Now several folks have stated their belief that they aren't lesbian, that should be enough. Those who wish to be called lesbian are free to do so, but we all can agree to disagree. What we all need to remember is that each one of us are different individuals and therefore are using different descriptors of who we are. Simple yes?

I see what you are saying here. Thank you!

[Cyclopea]

Not that I care one way or the other if you all get this, but just because english is spoken here doesn't mean the rest of the world uses it or speaks it. Therefore just because one uses lesbian for themselves, doesn't mean the rest of the world uses it as a label. On the Greek isle of Lesbos, the citizens want to change the word lesbian to not mean the women who come from Lesobs, because of the connotation. They find the usage of their island name harmful to them.
Now several folks have stated their belief that they aren't lesbian, that should be enough. Those who wish to be called lesbian are free to do so, but we all can agree to disagree. What we all need to remember is that each one of us are different individuals and therefore are using different descriptors of who we are. Simple yes?

Corkey I was responding as a lesbian to a post by a non-lesbian about lesbians. Specifically that "Lesbian does not equal homosexual". I think you must have missed the flow of conversation here. I really don't understand what your comments have to do with it, although I suspect that your intentions are good.

[Gemme]

Corkey I was responding as a lesbian to a post by a non-lesbian about lesbians. Specifically that "Lesbian does not equal homosexual". I think you must have missed the flow of conversation here. I really don't understand what your comments have to do with it.

Gotcha! Okay, so I'll cop to wording that backwards and maybe that's where all of your focus has shifted. I can understand that, then.

So I am now...since I cannot edit my post at this point...asking you to see it from the other side. That all homosexuals are not necessarily lesbians. Does that make more sense to you?

[Corkey]

Corkey I was responding as a lesbian to a post by a non-lesbian about lesbians. Specifically that "Lesbian does not equal homosexual". I think you must have missed the flow of conversation here. I really don't understand what your comments have to do with it, although I suspect that your intentions are good.

Not ALL homosexual women are Lesbian, simple as that. I am Not a lesbian, you are, your truth doesn't over ride mine.

[Cyclopea]

Gotcha! Okay, so I'll cop to wording that backwards and maybe that's where all of your focus has shifted. I can understand that, then.

So I am now...since I cannot edit my post at this point...asking you to see it from the other side. That all homosexuals are not necessarily lesbians. Does that make more sense to you?

My focus has not shifted. You said that lesbian was not synonymous with homosexual. Yet it is. It doesn't matter if you say it backwards or forwards. Obviously gay men are not lesbians, nor are heterosexuals or bisexuals. Lesbian is a synonym for female homosexual.

Not ALL homosexual women are Lesbian, simple as that. I am Not a lesbian, you are, your truth doesn't over ride mine.

It's not "my" truth- it's the english language, which is the one we are using here. So I guess what you mean to say is "that's the english language, not mine".
Tired of repeating myself! So I'll leave you kids to it!

On a personal note: when someone tells me they are not a lesbian/female homosexual, I believe them and accept them as such! :)

[dreadgeek]

So, how do you explain Transguys and girls using math?

I wish my identity were only that simple to come by, but it's not. As Corkey mentioned, there are many people on this site that do not id as a lesbian, for whatever reason.

Are you, through math, saying that their identities are invalid because it doesn't fit into a nice neat box, because that's what it's starting to feel like.




I see what you are saying here. Thank you!

No, I'm not sure where you get that from. How do I explain transguys and transgals using math? I don't. Because the math was an argument from analogy, obviously something ELSE that shouldn't be done in this venue.

Let me be clear, I do not think that 3+2=5 means lesbian--or male or homosexual since that is clearly getting confused here. I was merely making the point that if A = B then B , by definition, must equal A.

There are no consistent statements of the form A = B where B does not equal A. Since for A = B to be true, B = A must also be true. That's it. That's my whole point. Nothing more, nothing less. Nothing about your identity (which neither picks my pockets nor breaks my leg) and nothing about the identities of transguys or transgals.

For the record, transguys are men to me. Transgals are women to me. Full-stop. No questions asked, no quibble. Their chromosomes do not change but they are still male or female as far as I am concerned. My point was about the meaning of words more than anything else. I guess I am old fashioned in the sense that I still cling to the naive belief that words have meaning and that it is necessary for them to have meaning in order for communication to occur.

Cheers
Aj

[T D]

Honestly, I don't care if these terms are antiquated or not. They're part of our history and always will be, that's just the way history works. I get so tired of all this mincing of words and definitions. Quite frankly it's one of the reasons I left the "other" site.

As for any and all new terms used by our younger brothers and sisters (or whomever), let em have them... I'm only interested in dating and/or marrying a "femme" who knows she's a "femme". That's what compliments who I am.

Just sayin....

[Gemme]

No, I'm not sure where you get that from. How do I explain transguys and transgals using math? I don't. Because the math was an argument from analogy, obviously something ELSE that shouldn't be done in this venue.

Let me be clear, I do not think that 3+2=5 means lesbian--or male or homosexual since that is clearly getting confused here. I was merely making the point that if A = B then B , by definition, must equal A.

There are no consistent statements of the form A = B where B does not equal A. Since for A = B to be true, B = A must also be true. That's it. That's my whole point. Nothing more, nothing less. Nothing about your identity (which neither picks my pockets nor breaks my leg) and nothing about the identities of transguys or transgals.

For the record, transguys are men to me. Transgals are women to me. Full-stop. No questions asked, no quibble. Their chromosomes do not change but they are still male or female as far as I am concerned. My point was about the meaning of words more than anything else. I guess I am old fashioned in the sense that I still cling to the naive belief that words have meaning and that it is necessary for them to have meaning in order for communication to occur.

Cheers
Aj

I think we're all tired here, so I guess I'll say poe tay toe and you can say poe ta toe. Either way, someone's getting a big ole batch of french fries down the line. :)

[Kosmo]

I was watching the discussion from a respectful distance, but I couldn't help researching the argument; so I apologize if I've now made mashed potatoes. From Wikipedia:

The fallacy of the undistributed middle is a logical fallacy that is committed when the middle term in a categorical syllogism is not distributed. It is thus a syllogistic fallacy. More specifically it is also a form of non sequitur.

The fallacy of the undistributed middle takes the following form:
All Zs are Bs.
Y is a B.
Therefore, Y is a Z.

It may or may not be the case that "all Zs are Bs," but in either case it is irrelevant to the conclusion. What is relevant to the conclusion is whether it is true that "all Bs are Zs," which is ignored in the argument.

Note that if the terms were swapped around in either the conclusion or the first co-premise or if the first premise was rewritten to "All Zs can only be Bs" then it would no longer be a fallacy, although it could still be unsound. This also holds for the following two logical fallacies which are similar in nature to the fallacy of the undistributed middle and also non sequiturs.

An example can be given as follows:
Men are humans.
Mary is a human.
Therefore, Mary is a man.

[hippieflowergirl]

Looking at what like a "word problem"?
As a english speaker, lesbian=homosexual. A female homosexual is by definition a lesbian. Of course she can call herself whatever she wants if she is not speaking the english language.

__________________________________________________ _____
Les⋅bi⋅an  [lez-bee-uhn]
–adjective
1. of or pertaining to Lesbos.
2. (usually lowercase) of, pertaining to, or characteristic of female homosexuality.
3. (usually lowercase) erotic; sensual.
–noun
4. an inhabitant of Lesbos.
5. (usually lowercase) a female homosexual.
Origin:
1595–1605; < L Lesbi(us) Lesbian (< Gk Lésbios, equiv. to Lésb(os) Lesbos + -ios adj. suffix) + -an; (defs. 2, 5) alluding to the poet Sappho of Lesbos, whose verse deals largely with her emotional relationships with other women
Dictionary.com Unabridged
Based on the Random House Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2009.

les·bi·an (lěz'bē-ən)
n. A woman whose sexual orientation is to women.
adj. Of, relating to, or being a lesbian. See Usage Note at gay.

[From the putative homosexuality of Sappho, lyric poet of Lesbos.]
Les·bi·an (lěz'bē-ən)
n.
A native or inhabitant of Lesbos.

The ancient Greek dialect of Lesbos.

adj. Of or relating to Lesbos.

[From Latin Lesbius, from Greek Lesbios, from Lesbos.]
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2009

Cultural Dictionary

lesbian

A homosexual woman. (See also gay.)

The American Heritage® New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third Edition
Copyright © 2005 by Houghton Mifflin Company.


Word Origin & History

lesbian (adj.)
1591, from L. Lesbius, from Gk. lesbios "of Lesbos," Gk. island in northeastern Aegean Sea, home of Sappho, great lyric poet whose erotic and romantic verse embraced women as well as men, hence meaning "relating to homosexual relations between women" (1890; lesbianism in this sense is attested from 1870) and the noun, first recorded 1925. Slang variant lez, les is from 1929; lesbo first attested 1940. Before this, the principal fig. use (common in 17c.) was lesbian rule (1601) a mason's rule of lead, of a type used on Lesbos, which could be bent to fit the curves of a molding; hence, "pliant morality or judgment."
"And this is the nature of the equitable, a correction of law where it is defective owing to its universality. ... For when the thing is indefinite the rule also is indefinite, like the leaden rule used in making the Lesbian moulding; the rule adapts itself to the shape of the stone and is not rigid, and so too the decree is adapted to the facts." [Aristotle, "Nicomachean Ethics"]
Online Etymology Dictionary, © 2001 Douglas Harper

Medical Dictionary
Main Entry: 1les·bi·an
Pronunciation: 'lez-bE-&n
Function: adjective
often capitalized : of or relating to homosexualitybetween females

Main Entry: 2lesbian
Function: noun
often capitalized : a female homosexual called also sapphic, sapphist
Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary, © 2002 Merriam-Webster, Inc.

Medical Dictionary
lesbian les·bi·an (lěz'bē-ən)
n.
A gay or homosexual woman. adj.
Of, relating to, or being a lesbian.

Synonym: Homosexual
:LGBTQFlag:


this definition only works if the "lesbian" is sexually attracted to someone whose gender is "woman". what about the person whose gender is butch? or transguy? or genderqueer? or intersex? or fill-in-the-blank?

this definition of "lesbian" demands we continue to swallow a binary gender paradigm. such a paradigm has been proven to be greatly limited, limiting, and evolving. it has been many years since science/medicine discovered there were more genetic combinations than xx and xy.

additionally, there was a time when "heterosexual" meant "attracted to 2 sexes" and "homosexual" meant "attracted to 1 sex"...thus, btw, making "heterosexuality" an "abnormality".

generalizations usually end up eliminating important information...evolution in thinking as well as evolution in science being the information threatened with elimination at the moment.

[Cyclopea]

this definition only works if the "lesbian" is sexually attracted to someone whose gender is "woman". what about the person whose gender is butch? or transguy? or genderqueer? or intersex? or fill-in-the-blank?

this definition of "lesbian" demands we continue to swallow a binary gender paradigm. such a paradigm has been proven to be greatly limited, limiting, and evolving. it has been many years since science/medicine discovered there were more genetic combinations than xx and xy.

additionally, there was a time when "heterosexual" meant "attracted to 2 sexes" and "homosexual" meant "attracted to 1 sex"...thus, btw, making "heterosexuality" an "abnormality".

generalizations usually end up eliminating important information...evolution in thinking as well as evolution in science being the information threatened with elimination at the moment.

Lesbian is a synonym for female homosexual.

[hippieflowergirl]

one of the things i find interesting in this discussion is the obvious path of evolution.

we are, many of us, part of something i think of as a "transitional generation". i'll use myself as an example.

my parents were between 20 and 30 years older than i am and were raised in a very cut and dried world: their grandparents and parents grew up working farmland, got married, owned a house, had several children who grew up working farmland, and they were together until death.

my parents thought they would have the same life but ended up chosing other work besides farming, traveled extensively, bought a house, raised one child, both of them worked, then dad went to college and just mom worked and they divorced when i was 17. in doing all of this, they deviated from the "norm" created by their parents and grandparents and several generations prior. their generation began an evolutionary transition out of a centuries old cultural paradigm.

i'm 46. i'm single and happy living alone. i've had my career and dont work currently. grad school starts in a few weeks. i rent rather than own and have no children. if i'd had children they would be in their 20s now and the wonders they imagined wouldnt have even registered on my grandparents' radar. they (and their future children/grandchildren) are cultural pioneers.

my point is that as humankind, science, philosophy and etc evolves, the language of such things will evolve as well. there will come a time when people will define themselves using a vocabulary that we would be wholly familiar with.

perhaps, the start of such evolution is discussions like this one. it might be easier to say that human beings are simply "sexual" and to agree that there are a million and one ways to express that truth. maybe that will come close to illuminating what it is we're all trying to explain to one another with such vehement calm.

or not.

[Cyclopea]

one of the things i find interesting in this discussion is the obvious path of evolution.

we are, many of us, part of something i think of as a "transitional generation". i'll use myself as an example.

my parents were between 20 and 30 years older than i am and were raised in a very cut and dried world: their grandparents and parents grew up working farmland, got married, owned a house, had several children who grew up working farmland, and they were together until death.

my parents thought they would have the same life but ended up chosing other work besides farming, traveled extensively, bought a house, raised one child, both of them worked, then dad went to college and just mom worked and they divorced when i was 17. in doing all of this, they deviated from the "norm" created by their parents and grandparents and several generations prior. their generation began an evolutionary transition out of a centuries old cultural paradigm.

i'm 46. i'm single and happy living alone. i've had my career and dont work currently. grad school starts in a few weeks. i rent rather than own and have no children. if i'd had children they would be in their 20s now and the wonders they imagined wouldnt have even registered on my grandparents' radar. they (and their future children/grandchildren) are cultural pioneers.

my point is that as humankind, science, philosophy and etc evolves, the language of such things will evolve as well. there will come a time when people will define themselves using a vocabulary that we would be wholly familiar with.

perhaps, the start of such evolution is discussions like this one. it might be easier to say that human beings are simply "sexual" and to agree that there are a million and one ways to express that truth. maybe that will come close to illuminating what it is we're all trying to explain to one another with such vehement calm.

or not.
Are you saying you believe homosexuality is obsolete?
Or that the language describing lesbians needs to evolve into something that does not describe lesbians?

[hippieflowergirl]

Lesbian is a synonym for female homosexual.

okay, you use the equation, lesbian = female homosexual and female homosexual = lesbian. that part i get. it's what works in your world. it doesn't work in mine for the reasons i already stated:

you cited a dictionary which defines lesbian as a woman whose sex partners are also women.

if i partner with someone who does not identify themselves as "woman" then am i a lesbian?

and a new question based on your cited definition of "lesbian": is being a lesbian solely defined by sexual intercourse?

by your definition, the answer is 'yes' and yet not all "lesbians" feel that way. if i did use the word "lesbian" to define myself, i wouldnt feel that way either.

[hippieflowergirl]

Are you saying you believe homosexuality is obsolete?
Or that the language describing lesbians needs to evolve into something that does not describe lesbians?

i'm not saying that i believe anything is obsolete. i am saying that we are evolving and so our language is evolving.

the language describing people will evolve as people themselves evolve. i do not quite understand the idea that language that does describe lesbians must evolve into something that does not describe lesbians. describe and define are different things.

if someone tells me who i am, and i know they are wrong, i will say so. i dont mean any offense in doing so. i simply dont want to be defined by another person, and i especially dont want to be defined in terms that exclude the truth of who i am. people who insist that i use their words and definitions to define myself are being disrespectful.

according to the definition that a lesbian is a woman who has sexual intercourse with women, i am not a lesbian. i have sexual intercourse with butches or transguys. what word does the dictionary demand i use to define myself?

dictionaries are references. they are not etched in stone. they change every year. words are added and eliminated because language evolves. everything evolves.

[Cyclopea]

okay, you use the equation, lesbian = female homosexual and female homosexual = lesbian. that part i get. it's what works in your world. it doesn't work in mine for the reasons i already stated:

you cited a dictionary which defines lesbian as a woman whose sex partners are also women. The english language definition for lesbian is "female homosexual".

if i partner with someone who does not identify themselves as "woman" then am i a lesbian?A lesbian is synonymous with a female homosexual.

and a new question based on your cited definition of "lesbian": is being a lesbian solely defined by sexual intercourse? Do you define sexual orientation based on intercourse?

by your definition, the answer is 'yes' Wha??? I don't follow. and yet not all "lesbians" feel that way. if i did use the word "lesbian" to define myself, i wouldnt feel that way either. Are you speaking for "lesbians" here?

Lesbian is a synonym for "female homosexual".

[Cyclopea]

i'm not saying that i believe anything is obsolete. i am saying that we are evolving and so our language is evolving.

the language describing people will evolve as people themselves evolve. i do not quite understand the idea that language that does describe lesbians must evolve into something that does not describe lesbians. describe and define are different things.

if someone tells me who i am, and i know they are wrong, i will say so. i dont mean any offense in doing so. i simply dont want to be defined by another person, and i especially dont want to be defined in terms that exclude the truth of who i am. people who insist that i use their words and definitions to define myself are being disrespectful.

according to the definition that a lesbian is a woman who has sexual intercourse with women, i am not a lesbian. i have sexual intercourse with butches or transguys. what word does the dictionary demand i use to define myself?

dictionaries are references. they are not etched in stone. they change every year. words are added and eliminated because language evolves. everything evolves.
Do you find it problematic that there are homosexual women/lesbians in the world who are sexually oriented to other women? Or do you find it problematic that there are words to describe gay females? Do you feel the words that describe lesbian/homosexual women need to be broadened, because lesbians just take up too much danged space in the world, or have too many danged rights? Why do you, as a non-lesbian have an issue with the words lesbian/female homosexual to describe women affectationally and sexually oriented to other women?

[Gemme]

Do you find it problematic that there are homosexual women/lesbians in the world who are sexually oriented to other women? Or do you find it problematic that there are words to describe gay females? Do you feel the words that describe lesbian/homosexual women need to be broadened, because lesbians just take up too much danged space in the world, or have too many danged rights? Why do you, as a non-lesbian have an issue with the words lesbian/female homosexual to describe women affectationally and sexually oriented to other women?

I am gobsmacked as to how you've come to these conclusions from what she said.

*shakes head*

hippie said: if i did use the word "lesbian" to define myself, i wouldnt feel that way either.

you said: Are you speaking for "lesbians" here?

Where on Earth do you get "I'm speaking for lesbians" from if "I" used the word lesbian to define "myself", "I" wouldn't feel that way either???

I just don't see the connection. She can speak for herself, of course, but I am not seeing how you get that from her response. Maybe it will be clearer in the morning.

Good night, all.

[hippieflowergirl]

okay, you use the equation, lesbian = female homosexual and female homosexual = lesbian. that part i get. it's what works in your world. it doesn't work in mine for the reasons i already stated:

you cited a dictionary which defines lesbian as a woman whose sex partners are also women.


The english language definition for lesbian is "female homosexual".

yes...i believe i acknowledged that you cited the dictionary. that it was an english dictionary was presumed. i also said that i understood that this was a definition you were comfortable with. i have no issue with you using words in a way that make you comfortable. i do not have to use them the same way.


if i partner with someone who does not identify themselves as "woman" then am i a lesbian?

A lesbian is synonymous with a female homosexual.


i see the repetition but i missed you answering the question. if i partner with someone who does not consider themselves "woman" then am i still a lesbian by your definition? or does no one's definition of themselves matter more/appear more relevant than Webster's?

and a new question based on your cited definition of "lesbian": is being a lesbian solely defined by sexual intercourse? Do you define sexual orientation based on intercourse? by your definition, the answer is 'yes'

Wha??? I don't follow.



based on your dictionary definition of lesbian...that "lesbian" is defined as a woman who has sex with women....that means that lesbians are solely defined by the act of sexual intercourse.

and yet not all "lesbians" feel that way. if i did use the word "lesbian" to define myself, i wouldnt feel that way either.


Are you speaking for "lesbians" here?


i am speaking for myself when i use the word "i".

when i say "not all lesbians feel that way" i am relating the comments of people i know, people who do identify themselves as lesbians, who do not feel defined by the fact that they have sex with people who identify themselves as women.


Lesbian is a synonym for "female homosexual".

is there a point to repeating this statement? i apologize if it doesnt sound as though i understand that this is your point of view. i understand that you referred to the dictionary and that the statement is a summary of what you found there. i am perfectly comfortable not agreeing with the dictionary. i am comfortable with the concept of evolving language and with the idea that i do not define myself using the dictionary as my sole reference for reflection. i am comfortable not agreeing also, but if there is something i am supposed to understand in the repetition i will be the first to admit that i do not see it. sorry.

[Cyclopea]

I am gobsmacked as to how you've come to these conclusions from what she said.

*shakes head*

hippie said: if i did use the word "lesbian" to define myself, i wouldnt feel that way either.

you said: Are you speaking for "lesbians" here?

Where on Earth do you get "I'm speaking for lesbians" from if "I" used the word lesbian to define "myself", "I" wouldn't feel that way either???

I just don't see the connection. She can speak for herself, of course, but I am not seeing how you get that from her response. Maybe it will be clearer in the morning.

Good night, all.

An entire post from a non lesbian about lesbians? Speaking about how lesbians feel and stating how she would find the term lesbian problematic IF SHE WAS ONE? You don't see it- maybe only a lesbian would understand...

[hippieflowergirl]

Do you find it problematic that there are homosexual women/lesbians in the world who are sexually oriented to other women? Or do you find it problematic that there are words to describe gay females? Do you feel the words that describe lesbian/homosexual women need to be broadened, because lesbians just take up too much danged space in the world, or have too many danged rights? Why do you, as a non-lesbian have an issue with the words lesbian/female homosexual to describe women affectationally and sexually oriented to other women?


wow.

i'm going to defer answering this until i am less disturbed by the hostility that i feel coming with it.

good night everyone.

[Arwen]

Do you find it problematic that there are homosexual women/lesbians in the world who are sexually oriented to other women? Or do you find it problematic that there are words to describe gay females? Do you feel the words that describe lesbian/homosexual women need to be broadened, because lesbians just take up too much danged space in the world, or have too many danged rights? Why do you, as a non-lesbian have an issue with the words lesbian/female homosexual to describe women affectationally and sexually oriented to other women?

Do you find it problematic that there are women who do not identify as heterosexual and also choose to not identify as lesbian?

Why do you, as a lesbian, have an issue with the words non-heterosexual-but-not-lesbian may choose to not use to describe themselves.

The issue here it that it seems, Cyclopea, that you are trying to define other people's self i.d.

Why is that? I am truly curious. Does it somehow reflect on you if I choose to say that I am not a lesbian?

I could go into chapter and verse on why I choose not to call myself a lesbian, but maybe you would like to read the thread Open Letter: Dear Femme where this is addressed to some extent.

Bottom line is that no one gets to define me but me.

Your tone is couched in rather dogmatic language (which I also do so I'm fine with that). You might want to reread your posts and ask yourself if you are asking, demanding or going into lecture mode.

[Cyclopea]

okay, you use the equation, lesbian = female homosexual and female homosexual = lesbian. that part i get. it's what works in your world. it doesn't work in mine for the reasons i already stated:

you cited a dictionary which defines lesbian as a woman whose sex partners are also women.


The english language definition for lesbian is "female homosexual".

yes...i believe i acknowledged that you cited the dictionary. that it was an english dictionary was presumed. i also said that i understood that this was a definition you were comfortable with. i have no issue with you using words in a way that make you comfortable. i do not have to use them the same way.
Make me comfortable? I did not create the english language. I don't need to be patronized by someone who disagrees with the existence of dictionaries,lol.

if i partner with someone who does not identify themselves as "woman" then am i a lesbian?

A lesbian is synonymous with a female homosexual.


i see the repetition but i missed you answering the question. if i partner with someone who does not consider themselves "woman" then am i still a lesbian by your definition? or does no one's definition of themselves matter more/appear more relevant than Webster's?You ask here whether sexual orientation/affectational orientation is defined by one's relationships and actions. Are you asking for my personal opinion? Why?

and a new question based on your cited definition of "lesbian": is being a lesbian solely defined by sexual intercourse? Do you define sexual orientation based on intercourse? by your definition, the answer is 'yes'

Wha??? I don't follow.



based on your dictionary definition of lesbian...that "lesbian" is defined as a woman who has sex with women....that means that lesbians are solely defined by the act of sexual intercourse. OK you obviously didn't read them. That's why I keep repeating.

and yet not all "lesbians" feel that way. if i did use the word "lesbian" to define myself, i wouldnt feel that way either.


Are you speaking for "lesbians" here?


i am speaking for myself when i use the word "i".

when i say "not all lesbians feel that way" i am relating the comments of people i know, people who do identify themselves as lesbians, who do not feel defined by the fact that they have sex with people who identify themselves as women.


Lesbian is a synonym for "female homosexual".

is there a point to repeating this statement? i apologize if it doesnt sound as though i understand that this is your point of view. Yes, that's it, really.i understand that you referred to the dictionary and that the statement is a summary of what you found there. i am perfectly comfortable not agreeing with the dictionary. i am comfortable with the concept of evolving language What do you find problematic about lesbian/homosexual women having words to describe themselves?and with the idea that i do not define myself using the dictionary as my sole reference for reflection. i am comfortable not agreeing also, but if there is something i am supposed to understand in the repetition i will be the first to admit that i do not see it. sorry.
Then I'll keep repeating.

[Cyclopea]

wow.

i'm going to defer answering this until i am less disturbed by the hostility that i feel coming with it.

good night everyone.

I'm sorry you feel hostility? Not intended as hostile at all. I think this gets to the crux of our conversation here. I look forward to your response. Have a pleasant evening!

[hippieflowergirl]

An entire post from a non lesbian about lesbians? Speaking about how lesbians feel and stating how she would find the term lesbian problematic IF SHE WAS ONE? You don't see it- maybe only a lesbian would understand...

this is both unfair and unkind. if there's a problem with me, please PM me. i see no reason to be rude to Gemme.

i was not speaking for all lesbians nor was i telling anyone how to define themselves. i was participating in a conversation, one that has turned into something ugly.

in an exchange of ideas, there is no reason to feel threatened or hostile when people dont agree. there is no mandate for agreement in conversation. there is, however, the possibility for greater understanding of one another. i am glad i understand your point of view. i do not demand that you see mine. it would be nice if we could return to the discussion and leave the animosity out of things.

good night

[Arwen]

I'm sorry you feel hostility? Not intended as hostile at all. I think this gets to the crux of our conversation here. I look forward to your response. Have a pleasant evening!

The repetition of the definition as though she is an idiot is more than hostile and unpleasant, Cyclopea.

You do get that not everyone will agree with you, right? You do get that you can't force a definition down someone's throat, correct?

For me, lesbian is synonymous with a woman who enjoys having female-oriented sex with another woman. My butch lover may be a lesbian (and that's all right by me) but I am not a lesbian in that there are aspects of lesbian sex that do not appeal to me in any shape, form or fashion.

I am not a pillow princess, but that word has been applied to me by butch lesbian lovers who were not stone.

That is one of the reasons I do not call myself a lesbian and one of the reasons I simply dread dating someone who isn't fully aware of my personal id as a queer femme and not a lesbian.

You need to understand that you may be unintentionally being very hurtful in your forcing that definition on some of us. I do not think you mean to be, but that is where you are skimming very very close to for me personally.

[Cyclopea]

Do you find it problematic that there are women who do not identify as heterosexual and also choose to not identify as lesbian?
Not at all, I think it's great and consider them allies.
Why do you, as a lesbian, have an issue with the words non-heterosexual-but-not-lesbian may choose to not use to describe themselves.
I don't!

The issue here it that it seems, Cyclopea, that you are trying to define other people's self i.d.
Not at all! That is simply not true.

Why is that? I am truly curious. Does it somehow reflect on you if I choose to say that I am not a lesbian?
Why are terms decribing lesbian/female homosexuals so problematic to non-heterosexual-but-not-lesbian people? I just don't get it. And as I said a few posts back, I would never ever want someone to ID as lesbian/female homosexual if they were not one! Frankly I'm offended that you would read so much into my posts that is not there, and I wonder why...


I could go into chapter and verse on why I choose not to call myself a lesbian, but maybe you would like to read the thread Open Letter: Dear Femme where this is addressed to some extent.
As I posted earlier in the thread I would never want someone to ID as a lesbian who was not a lesbian/homosexual female. Ever. I accept and respect them as they are. Or did you skip that post?

Bottom line is that no one gets to define me but me.
I never said otherwise so please don't make such unfair accusations.

Your tone is couched in rather dogmatic language (which I also do so I'm fine with that). You might want to reread your posts and ask yourself if you are asking, demanding or going into lecture mode. Wow, very harsh.

Please read my previous posts before making ugly accusations and personal attacks. Thanks.

[Cyclopea]

this is both unfair and unkind. if there's a problem with me, please PM me. i see no reason to be rude to Gemme.

i was not speaking for all lesbians nor was i telling anyone how to define themselves. i was participating in a conversation, one that has turned into something ugly.

in an exchange of ideas, there is no reason to feel threatened or hostile when people dont agree. there is no mandate for agreement in conversation. there is, however, the possibility for greater understanding of one another. i am glad i understand your point of view. i do not demand that you see mine. it would be nice if we could return to the discussion and leave the animosity out of things.

good night

I'm sorry you feel I was rude to Gemme- that was certainly not my intention. I was simply clarifying.

[Arwen]

Please read my previous posts before making ugly accusations and personal attacks. Thanks.

Thanks but I have read and actually enjoyed most of your posts. I am sorry if you found my words as "ugly accusations and personal attacks." They were not meant to be at all. I simply wanted to give you an opportunity to reread your post that I was referring too.

Simply restating your point over and over is not discussion to me.

[Cyclopea]

The repetition of the definition as though she is an idiot is more than hostile and unpleasant, Cyclopea.

You do get that not everyone will agree with you, right? You do get that you can't force a definition down someone's throat, correct?

For me, lesbian is synonymous with a woman who enjoys having female-oriented sex with another woman. My butch lover may be a lesbian (and that's all right by me) but I am not a lesbian in that there are aspects of lesbian sex that do not appeal to me in any shape, form or fashion.

I am not a pillow princess, but that word has been applied to me by butch lesbian lovers who were not stone.

That is one of the reasons I do not call myself a lesbian and one of the reasons I simply dread dating someone who isn't fully aware of my personal id as a queer femme and not a lesbian.

You need to understand that you may be unintentionally being very hurtful in your forcing that definition on some of us. I do not think you mean to be, but that is where you are skimming very very close to for me personally.


What on earth makes you think that I, or any other lesbian wants non-lesbians to use the language by which we describe ourselves??? At no time did I, or would I, desire for non-lesbians/female homosexuals to use the language we use to describe ourselves.

[Arwen]

What on earth makes you think that I, or any other lesbian wants non-lesbians to use the language by which we describe ourselves??? At no time did I, or would I, desire for non-lesbians/female homosexuals to use the language we use to describe ourselves.

Hmmm. Perhaps I missed your point then of why you were stating over and over that a female homosexual was synonymous with lesbian.

I apologize. I thought you were saying that that was the only definition available for female homosexual.

As a queer femme who no longer identifies as lesbian, yet understands and respects those that do, I read your repetition of that as I described just now.

Truly, if that is not what you were saying, then I am sorry.

What were you trying to say? Maybe if we start over? :)

[Cyclopea]

Thanks but I have read and actually enjoyed most of your posts. I am sorry if you found my words as "ugly accusations and personal attacks." They were not meant to be at all. I simply wanted to give you an opportunity to reread your post that I was referring too.

Simply restating your point over and over is not discussion to me.


I repeated my point over and over because my actual point was very simple. It was not about how sex defines orientation, or certainly not what non-lesbians should call themselves, or any of the other issues raised by non-lesbians in response. And yes, I am getting a bit frazzled feeling forced to reiterate my simple point.

[Arwen]

I repeated my point over and over because my actual point was very simple. It was not about how sex defines orientation, or certainly not what non-lesbians should call themselves, or any of the other issues raised by non-lesbians in response. And yes, I am getting a bit frazzled feeling forced to reiterate my simple point.

I do understand getting frazzled, Cyclopea. Maybe if you take a step back, you will find a fresh way to approach it. I don't know about you, but I find that hammering the same nail with the same hammer only ruins the board. :)

I am not trying to attack you. I am simply trying to find out if there is room in that definition of "female homosexual" for a woman who is not a heterosexual but not, in my heart anyway, a "true" lesbian.

[Cyclopea]

Hmmm. Perhaps I missed your point then of why you were stating over and over that a female homosexual was synonymous with lesbian.

I apologize. I thought you were saying that that was the only definition available for female homosexual.

As a queer femme who no longer identifies as lesbian, yet understands and respects those that do, I read your repetition of that as I described just now.

Truly, if that is not what you were saying, then I am sorry.

What were you trying to say? Maybe if we start over? :)


Yes, my point was that Lesbian is synonymous with female homosexual. Therefore, female homosexual is synonymous with lesbian.
That is not "my" judgement. That is the english language as understood by english speaking people. Homo=one (gender). Women who are affectationally and sexually oriented to other women is the definition of female homosexual/lesbian. (Can't believe you're making me repeat this! lol).

Several posters seemed to have issue with homosexual/lesbian women having terms that describe their orientation. They went to great length to justify why they are not lesbians (which no one asked).

Just because lesbian is synonymous with female homosexual shouldn't take away from other queers, but apparently people felt it was somehow unfair that the terms lesbian and female homosexual are synonymous and describe females who are affectationally and sexually oriented to other women.
I'm not sure why. Maybe they think lesbianism/female homosexuality shoud not be defined by women loving women?

[Cyclopea]

I do understand getting frazzled, Cyclopea. Maybe if you take a step back, you will find a fresh way to approach it. I don't know about you, but I find that hammering the same nail with the same hammer only ruins the board. :)

I am not trying to attack you. I am simply trying to find out if there is room in that definition of "female homosexual" for a woman who is not a heterosexual but not, in my heart anyway, a "true" lesbian.


I'm sure you're right. I tried to step out of the thread earlier but people kept posting completely unrelated (and loaded) responses to my simple linguistic point.
And some read all sorts of "anti" stuff into it that I don't feel at all.
And that whole thing of wanting people to ID as lesbian/female homosexual who weren't- that certainly didn't come from me! I appreciate our allies! Just as they are!

[Arwen]

Yes, my point was that Lesbian is synonymous with female homosexual. Therefore, female homosexual is synonymous with lesbian.
That is not "my" judgement. That is the english language as understood by english speaking people. Homo=one (gender). Women who are affectationally and sexually oriented to other women is the definition of female homosexual/lesbian. (Can't believe you're making me repeat this! lol).

Several posters seemed to have issue with homosexual/lesbian women having terms that describe their orientation. They went to great length to justify why they are not lesbians (which no one asked).

Just because lesbian is synonymous with female homosexual shouldn't take away from other queers, but apparently people felt it was somehow unfair that the terms lesbian and female homosexual are synonymous and describe females who are affectationally and sexually oriented to other women.
I'm not sure why. Maybe they think lesbianism/female homosexuality shoud not be defined by women loving women?

To be clear, I did not make you repeat that. You chose to do repeat that.

Pig is synonymous with swine and also with police officer (forgive me all my police officer friends.) My point is that the word "pig" has more than one definition (and very varied ones at that.) I'm sure we could both list a slew of words with similar multi-tasking uses.

I see that this discussion has simply become more hammering of the same nail. I do not understand the point you are trying to make. I am sorry. Perhaps it is simply that I am over-tired.

I will remove myself from this discussion for now and come back to it perhaps when I am refreshed.

At this point, it still feels to me like you are saying that a female homosexual can only be a lesbian. I will vehemently disagree with those limiting parameters. Good night. :)

[WILDCAT]

I've had to stop reading this two pages back!

I'm a proud queer butch lesbian!

This is fucking hurtful that folks are going nuts about being referred to as a queer/femme/butch lesbian, etc... in such a very negative, hateful - if not digusting way.

IF you aren't a queer lesbian butch or femme lesbian... Good. Please don't hate those who are and act like you're being referred to as such - is akin to the fucking scum of the earth. What the hell!?

IF you are a queer lesbian, butch or femme - and assume all folks are (not straight and trangendered here - unless someone ID's this way of their own choice) please consider that all folks do NOT refer to themselves this way. And they do not care for it, no matter what the reasons. That needs to be respected too. We argue over this continually. I am sick and tired of it.
___

OTHERWISE, forget that this is a butch/femme site. That the owners are trying to be inclusive - and I feel like I'm being spit on here. And I can see how the ones who KNOW folks here truly are sticking up for each other, despite what THEIR damn ID even is! I am truly disgusted right now.

Merry fucking Christmas and to all and to all a good night. I'll be back in a few days to see how WONDERFUL all of our holidays were - after shit like this. If I am able.

SINCERELY,
WILDCAT

*And report my ass away, fine... Not too many folks should be feeling too goddamn proud right now, IM HUMBLE OPINION. We got set up here, I thought that... I said as much - but, now with some of these responses - no, I was not going to keep my mouth shut here! (And PLEASE, try and say now: I did not "try" and get through this. Give me a fucking break!)

**And "Victoria" (Is that right?) Good job. Happy holidays.

***Sorry Jack and Medusa. (And to the mods.)

[WILDCAT]

I don't "truly" mean, literally - "merry F'n X-Mas to ALL", I really mean I am burnt the hell out on this same tired old stuff.

Sorry to those of you who do NOT wear these shoes...

Please forgive me for that. That is my pain talking.

WILDCAT

[BullDog]

Anyone who doesn't want to id as a lesbian- fine and dandy. But some of these so-called definitions of lesbians and lesbian sex coming from non-identified lesbians are truly ridiculous and limited. Lesbians and our language have "evolved" just as much as the rest of the "advanced cutting edge gender identities"- queer/genderqueer etc.

I am real tired of the constant messages that lesbian and woman are somehow antiquated terms that others have evolved from.

I am real tired of how female, woman, lesbian are constantly being ridiculed and minimized in butch femme and queer communities- particularly when attached to butch

This post was written by a Proud Stone Butch Lesbian- who has female oriented sex because I am female and my intimate partners are female (I'm a homosexual, I'm queer, I'm lesbian), and yes I am stone too.

p.s. Cyclopea I saw absolutely nothing hostile in your tone. I thought you were being very matter of fact. I believe what some are saying is that female homosexual has more than one meaning.

[turasultana]

Maybe this will make sense if not... i gave it a go.

Gemme was saying (paraphrasing) that all homosexuals aren't lesbians, which is true even in the broadest sense since men can be homosexuals and not lesbians.

Cyclopea is saying all female homosexuals are lesbians..

But how about if Gemme (or anyone, not trying to put words in her mouth) defines herself as Femme rather than "female". Can we then say:
Femme homosexuals are not all lesbians. (may or may not be).

Would that make sense?

[NJFemmie]

For me, lesbian is synonymous with a woman who enjoys having female-oriented sex with another woman. My butch lover may be a lesbian (and that's all right by me) but I am not a lesbian in that there are aspects of lesbian sex that do not appeal to me in any shape, form or fashion.



This kind of says to me, say, for example: that if a straight man, who enjoys having sex with a woman - doesn't like anal sex, and say he doesn't like performing oral sex on her - would this make him less heterosexual? No, he is a bio man attracted sexually to a bio woman. Bedroom activities may vary. But I know that this is one reason why you don't ID as lesbian - but since this particular statement was posted, it kind of jumped out at me.

I think what is being said is :

If you were born a biological female and you are attracted (in whatever way) to other biological females, you are, by default, a homosexual, thus = lesbian.

What you do with the word, is purely up to you. (And of course I mean, the general 'you').

[Jett]

*snip*..... My butch lover may be a lesbian (and that's all right by me) but I am not a lesbian in that there are aspects of lesbian sex that do not appeal to me in any shape, form or fashion.

I am not a pillow princess, but that word has been applied to me by butch lesbian lovers who were not stone.

............*snip*.................
You need to understand that you may be unintentionally being very hurtful in your forcing that definition on some of us. I do not think you mean to be, but that is where you are skimming very very close to for me personally.


Are you saying that "lesbian" is defined by the what type of sexual activities a couple engage in? That you're not a lesbian because you personally don't like to touch female bits? I'm not trying to call you out and it's not personal but that's completely illogical too me.

If what you say is true it would follow that any B-F couple (no matter choice of ID female male ftm etc) who does enjoy, say, mutual touching etc. whatever it might entail is having lesbian sex? It would also equate to Stones (or anyone) who don't engage in these types of mutual sexual activities could not define themselves as lesbian if they wanted.

IMO there is no such thing as "lesbian sex"(69, mutual masterbation)... to me it's obviously a lesbian stereotype.

I left the last line b/c I think that's working both ways here for many peeps...

[dreadgeek]

I am real tired of the constant messages that lesbian and woman are somehow antiquated terms that others have evolved from.

I am real tired of how female, woman, lesbian are constantly being ridiculed and minimized in butch femme and queer communities- particularly when attached to butch



Bulldog:

I understand and share your frustration and weariness. I, too, am tired of being told that others identity counts, is sacred, is inherently deserving of respect but that my identity is not worth the paper my birth certificate was written on. If I were a butch who was a transman, or preferred to be called 'he' or rejected the word lesbian then I would be hoisted upon many shoulders and carried through the virtual town square with shouts of Huzzah! Huzzah! However, because I prefer (in fact insist) that I be called 'she' and embrace the word lesbian, my identity, my commitment to equality, all manner of imprecations can be drawn about my motives with absolute and utter impunity.

To me, it is important for words to have meaning and for special pleading to be kept to a minimum. As a black woman, I know--intimately, from the very moments that I was aware that there was a society outside of my family--that in a world where special pleading is allowed to run rampant, eventually, inevitably, I and my people will lose. How so? "All men are created equal (except blacks)". That was the reigning ideology for first 190 years of America's existence as a nation-state. Racism is a case of special pleading "for everyone excepting them". Even when it looks like special pleading might make me a winner by working in my favor, it doesn't. Affirmative action being a particular case. I have heard people say behind my back(and to my face) that I was nothing more than an affirmative action hire. So even a system that allegedly is supposed to benefit me works against me because rules are not being applied equally.

If we can define words to mean whatever the hell we want them to mean, in the moment that it is convenient for us to do so, as if this were through the looking glass, then what is to stop a heterosexual, chromosonal (XY) male from saying "I identify as a lesbian and therefore, I get to come into lesbian spaces and talk about lesbians as an authority because I am a lesbian". If lesbian has no necessary connection to either being woman (whatever your chromosomes are--to me a transwoman is a woman) or homosexual then what is a lesbian? It appears that, in fact, what is being said is that lesbian has neither a proximate or sufficient relationship to either the words female (or woman) or homosexual.

Lastly, it makes me wonder--as I sometimes wonder about the field of biology--what our sins as lesbians (or butches) were that our identities are not worthy of respect. And they are consistently treated as if they are not. It is not all in our heads. Too many of us, from too many disparate backgrounds, all seem to keep coming to this same place of "why is it okay for the most horrible things to be said about butches (or lesbians) but it is a capital crime to say anything, including the idea that lesbian identity is worthy of some respect, that might be taken as diminishing by someone of a different identity". I have tried, to the best of my ability, to step back from this and try to work off the assumption that it is all in my head. I then run little thought experiments based upon my own observations of how my species behaves and end up coming back to 'this doesn't really quite work'. I wish I knew what my sins were, as a butch, female-identified, lesbian so that if they are ongoing sins I could at least change my behavior and put myself, once again, in the circle of those who are considered worthy of respect. If my sins are wholly in the past, I would like to know what they were.

Yet no one will tell us the nature of our crimes, the charges are not read to us and we are not even allowed to challenge our accusers or cross-examine our prosecutors. Any attempts to do so are immediately dismissed.

It seems that all one has to do is say "FOR ME" and one is given a free pass to say anything one wishes about lesbians or butches and call us children of some lesser and unworthy god.

Cheers
Aj

[Apocalipstic]

It is tiring and sad to over and over again hearing how "Lesbian" is a bad word and that "Lesbian" sex is disgusting.

I am a Lesbian, I have a Lesbian G/F. I am Femme, She is Butch.

I also wonder why that is so terrible, and why we can't ID as we do without it constantly being brought into question.

Love all of you, but please try to be respectful of people who actually are Lesbians and proud of it!

:overreaction:

Thread after thread, year after year.

:overreaction:

[Arwen]

This kind of says to me, say, for example: that if a straight man, who enjoys having sex with a woman - doesn't like anal sex, and say he doesn't like performing oral sex on her - would this make him less heterosexual? No, he is a bio man attracted sexually to a bio woman. Bedroom activities may vary. But I know that this is one reason why you don't ID as lesbian - but since this particular statement was posted, it kind of jumped out at me.

I think what is being said is :

If you were born a biological female and you are attracted (in whatever way) to other biological females, you are, by default, a homosexual, thus = lesbian.

What you do with the word, is purely up to you. (And of course I mean, the general 'you').

This makes sense to me. I think it is my own hangup with being told for so very long that I wan't a very good lesbian by some partners. :)

Are you saying that "lesbian" is defined by the what type of sexual activities a couple engage in? That you're not a lesbian because you personally don't like to touch female bits? I'm not trying to call you out and it's not personal but that's completely illogical too me.

If what you say is true it would follow that any B-F couple (no matter choice of ID female male ftm etc) who does enjoy, say, mutual touching etc. whatever it might entail is having lesbian sex? It would also equate to Stones (or anyone) who don't engage in these types of mutual sexual activities could not define themselves as lesbian if they wanted.

IMO there is no such thing as "lesbian sex"(69, mutual masterbation)... to me it's obviously a lesbian stereotype.

I left the last line b/c I think that's working both ways here for many peeps...

Yes that is what I am saying for me, myself and I. Not for anyone else on the planet. Just me.

This is a really personal issue for me, y'all. It hits on some really sore points in my past that I apparently have not yet worked out. :) I have had women hit me and yell at me and harangue me for my sexual preferences.

Yes, hit. As in punch.

So I am trying to untangle that from the word lesbian but for me, it is a trigger for someone to seemingly say that lesbian is the only word I can call myself. I actually do not think that is what Cyclopea was saying but that is what I was hearing/reading last night. That is why I disengaged.

When people scream and yell and harangue (has has been done in this thread in my perceptions), it hurts me on a very deep level. Intellectually I understand that they are responding from a possibly hurt place as well but it is difficult to get out of my own hurt spot to realize that.

I will try to read with an open mind and heart.

Please understand that my saying I am not a lesbian doesn't mean you can't be a lesbian or that there is anything in the world wrong with lesbian sex. Just like some people don't like anal sex or toe sucking or nose licking, we all have things that just don't work for us for whatever reason.

My reason is a harsh one for why I do not like some aspects of woman-to-woman sex. I was raped by a woman.

So there you have it. The base of the reason of why Arwen does not like some aspects of so-called lesbian sex.

Again, to repeat, I do not have any issues with what you (generic) call yourself. I do have issues with you(generic) telling me what I call myself. And that is what I was trying to rationally discuss last night/this morning. I am sorry for the anger and ugliness it seems to have brought out in a few. I truly am.

[Jett]

*snip*..... My butch lover may be a lesbian (and that's all right by me) but I am not a lesbian in that there are aspects of lesbian sex that do not appeal to me in any shape, form or fashion.

I am not a pillow princess, but that word has been applied to me by butch lesbian lovers who were not stone.

............*snip*.................
You need to understand that you may be unintentionally being very hurtful in your forcing that definition on some of us. I do not think you mean to be, but that is where you are skimming very very close to for me personally.

Are you saying that "lesbian" is defined by the what type of sexual activities a couple engage in? That you're not a lesbian because you personally don't like to touch female bits? I'm not trying to call you out and it's not personal but that's completely illogical too me.

If what you say is true it would follow that any B-F couple (no matter choice of ID female male ftm etc) who does enjoy, say, mutual touching etc. whatever it might entail is having lesbian sex? It would also equate to Stones (or anyone) who don't engage in these types of mutual sexual activities could not define themselves as lesbian if they wanted.

IMO there is no such thing as "lesbian sex"(69, mutual masterbation)... to me it's obviously a lesbian stereotype.

I left the last line b/c I think that's working both ways here for many peeps...


Yes that is what I am saying for me, myself and I. Not for anyone else on the planet. Just me.

This is a really personal issue for me, y'all. It hits on some really sore points in my past that I apparently have not yet worked out. :) I have had women hit me and yell at me and harangue me for my sexual preferences.

Yes, hit. As in punch.

So I am trying to untangle that from the word lesbian but for me, it is a trigger for someone to seemingly say that lesbian is the only word I can call myself. I actually do not think that is what Cyclopea was saying but that is what I was hearing/reading last night. That is why I disengaged.

When people scream and yell and harangue (has has been done in this thread in my perceptions), it hurts me on a very deep level. Intellectually I understand that they are responding from a possibly hurt place as well but it is difficult to get out of my own hurt spot to realize that.

I will try to read with an open mind and heart.

Please understand that my saying I am not a lesbian doesn't mean you can't be a lesbian or that there is anything in the world wrong with lesbian sex. Just like some people don't like anal sex or toe sucking or nose licking, we all have things that just don't work for us for whatever reason.

My reason is a harsh one for why I do not like some aspects of woman-to-woman sex. I was raped by a woman.

So there you have it. The base of the reason of why Arwen does not like some aspects of so-called lesbian sex.

Again, to repeat, I do not have any issues with what you (generic) call yourself. I do have issues with you(generic) telling me what I call myself. And that is what I was trying to rationally discuss last night/this morning. I am sorry for the anger and ugliness it seems to have brought out in a few. I truly am.


*sighs* but did you notice my point about "lesbian sex" is a stereotype? That's all I even addressed in my post.

[Apocalipstic]

Arwen, I totally get being upset at being called a "bad Lesbian", I have been called a "failure as a Lesbian". People can be so mean! Unbelievable.

I think we all need to be more careful in how we say things that ick us out, becasue it can easily hurt another person.

It's seems to me that in these types of websites it is so often the people who ID as Lesbians and Female identified Butches who get the brunt of the negative comments and over the years people are just as upset and raw as you were when that very unfeeling and selfish person told you you were a bad Lesbian.

Does that make sense?

[Arwen]

*sighs* but did you notice my point about "lesbian sex" is a stereotype? That's all I even addressed in my post.

I apologize if my post did not address what you wanted me to understand, Metropolis. While I do see what you are saying about lesbian sex being a stereotype, I think you are missing my point. That's okay. Like I said, I do not have any issues with how you identify.

Arwen, I totally get being upset at being called a "bad Lesbian", I have been called a "failure as a Lesbian". People can be so mean! Unbelievable.

I think we all need to be more careful in how we say things that ick us out, becasue it can easily hurt another person.

It's seems to me that in these types of websites it is so often the people who ID as Lesbians and Female identified Butches who get the brunt of the negative comments and over the years people are just as upset and raw as you were when that very unfeeling and selfish person told you you were a bad Lesbian.

Does that make sense?


Okay, here is what I SERIOUSLY do not get.

How is it that by my saying that I do not identify as a lesbian...how am I insulting anyone? HOw is that a negative comment towards someone who does?

That's a lot like saying I am insulting all raspberry lovers when I say I think raspberries are disgusting.

Huh? I really am not getting this, am I? I am struggling right now with trying to share how I personally view my own personal identity. I am not saying that going down on a woman should squick you out, Apocalipstic. I am not saying that it can not be a fabulous, erotic, romantic, mind-blowing experiencing for you.

I am saying that for me it is a traumatic event that I never want to repeat again in this lifetime.

How does my personal choice reflect on yours? How does my saying I do not want to be called a lesbian translate into I think all lesbians are yucky?

I am really really really not understanding this and I am posting this from a very emotional place right now. I am also going to leave for work in a few so my non-response just means I am afk and not that I am ignoring the conversation.

To be really clear, I am not angry at this discussion. I am hurt by it but not angered.

[NJFemmie]

You being told you weren't a (so-called) 'good' lesbian - doesn't make you any less of a lesbian (yes, I know that you do not ID as such, but let's use this as a for instance), it seems to me that there were obvious incompatibilities, and the person who said this to you should have exercised tact and sensitivity instead of being hurtful and callous. Mean people do suck.

Arwen, I'm sorry that you went through that. And I am sure you know that on some level, what happened to you does not, by any means, constitute "lesbian sex" - but rather, you being taken advantage of by a very warped and fucked up individual, who most likely happened to be a lesbian.

On that note... I agree with Metro - there is no such thing as lesbian sex. Sex is sex. What happens behind closed doors doesn't categorize itself - we do the categorizing based on stereotypes, assumptions and misinformation.

[Arwen]

On second thought, I am going to unsubscribe from this thread.

This is not about what a lesbian is or isn't for me.

It is for others.

Because this is such an emotionally charged issue for me and because I am actually sitting here in tears feeling like I need to throw up, obviously I am not going to be able to unwrap my tangled up issues over this word.

My feelings about the word are hurting some of you and making you feel as if I think how you love is a bad thing. I am truly very sorry for that. I never meant for that to be. In trying to explain my own feelings, I've offended some folks I count as friends.

Please know that I am not angry. This is not about anger at all.

I do appreciate those of you who have rationally discussed this. I do understand where you are coming from. I just wish you could see that my personal choice does not demean yours any more than your personal choice demeans mine.

Right now, I feel as if some of you think I hate lesbians and that is simply not true. But it hurts very deeply so I am withdrawing myself at this time from this particular thread.

[Jett]

I apologize if my post did not address what you wanted me to understand, Metropolis. While I do see what you are saying about lesbian sex being a stereotype, I think you are missing my point. That's okay. Like I said, I do not have any issues with how you identify.


I didn't miss you're point at even slightly... I was making my own point related to you continually using the term "lesbian sex" as if it means something specific that everyone should understand.

Also I have not stated how I identify as far as "lesbian" goes... I'm not sure what you "do not have any issues with" as far as my identity.

ETA: (because I just read your most recent post) I personally in no way got the impression you hate lesbians, (and I'm wondering where that was implied)... and I am truly sorry you're as upset as you are, unfortunately when people have hard discussions it can feel personal... I assure you on my end it's not.

[Apocalipstic]

I apologize if my post did not address what you wanted me to understand, Metropolis. While I do see what you are saying about lesbian sex being a stereotype, I think you are missing my point. That's okay. Like I said, I do not have any issues with how you identify.




Okay, here is what I SERIOUSLY do not get.

How is it that by my saying that I do not identify as a lesbian...how am I insulting anyone? HOw is that a negative comment towards someone who does?

That's a lot like saying I am insulting all raspberry lovers when I say I think raspberries are disgusting.

Huh? I really am not getting this, am I? I am struggling right now with trying to share how I personally view my own personal identity. I am not saying that going down on a woman should squick you out, Apocalipstic. I am not saying that it can not be a fabulous, erotic, romantic, mind-blowing experiencing for you.

I am saying that for me it is a traumatic event that I never want to repeat again in this lifetime.

How does my personal choice reflect on yours? How does my saying I do not want to be called a lesbian translate into I think all lesbians are yucky?

I am really really really not understanding this and I am posting this from a very emotional place right now. I am also going to leave for work in a few so my non-response just means I am afk and not that I am ignoring the conversation.

To be really clear, I am not angry at this discussion. I am hurt by it but not angered.


The very last thing I want to do is hurt you! xoxoxoxoxoxoxoxo

Just sometimes when someone new, or who thinks differently says we are all Lesbians, the responses can sound like being a Lesbian is the most disgusting thing in the world.

I understand that to you, this is true and I understand why.

I just wish that the general you, not you personally, would maybe use a softer tone when discussing Lesbians.

It is just as hurtful to us/them, as it was to you those times when someone told you you were not a good Lesbian.

Make sense at all?

[dreadgeek]

Arwen, I totally get being upset at being called a "bad Lesbian", I have been called a "failure as a Lesbian". People can be so mean! Unbelievable.

I think we all need to be more careful in how we say things that ick us out, becasue it can easily hurt another person.

It's seems to me that in these types of websites it is so often the people who ID as Lesbians and Female identified Butches who get the brunt of the negative comments and over the years people are just as upset and raw as you were when that very unfeeling and selfish person told you you were a bad Lesbian.

Does that make sense?

I would like to know what I have to do or say or become for MY hurt to matter. Because it seems that, in the same way that for 190 years 'all men were created equal, just some were more equal than others' there is an unspoken ethic of 'everyone's pain is equally valid, but some folks pain is more valid than others'. (not saying YOU are doing this--not at all, I'm mostly thinking out loud)



Cheers
Aj

[Corkey]

I'm going to say this once and then leave the thread, because I've had it trying to say this over and over. NO ONE has said that being a lesbian is a bad thing, NO ONE has implied that lesbians are less than, NO ONE has said anything about lesbians that even in the slightest way puts down lesbians. What has been said is that not ALL homosexual women ARE lesbians. All this getting upset over something not said or implied by those who who have stated they aren't lesbians is foolishness and down right crap. Now have fun tearing folks apart over what hasn't been said. It's starting to sound like a broken record, and isn't community building in the least.
Have a wonderful Holiday!

[Apocalipstic]

I would like to know what I have to do or say or become for MY hurt to matter. Because it seems that, in the same way that for 190 years 'all men were created equal, just some were more equal than others' there is an unspoken ethic of 'everyone's pain is equally valid, but some folks pain is more valid than others'. (not saying YOU are doing this--not at all, I'm mostly thinking out loud)



Cheers
Aj

You are right, I am being a co-dependant freak and trying to backpetal because I don't want anyone to feel hurt.

And since I actually agree with what you said, I somehow felt we had less right to be hurt than Arwen.

ugh ugh ugh.

My appologies.

[BullDog]

Corkey there are people here who are lesbians who think that derogatory things have been said here- so our opinions don't matter?

Arwen and anyone else, I personally don't care whether anyone identifies as a lesbian or not, but I don't appreciate the stereotypes and the oh ick lesbian sentiments or that we are somehow less evolved- which is all in this thread.

[Blue_Daddy-O]

OH MY GOD...this is just unbelievable!!!

I can't wait to get back in here!!!! LOL!

Just because you are a Lesbian, taking offense to others not IDing as a Lesbian, not liking the word Lesbian or not relating to what some may call "Lesbian Sex" is just selfish and ridiculous!

YOU are a Lesbian! GREAT! I LOVE Lesbians!!!! We LOVE Lesbians. I do not identify as one! Many of us do not identify as one! SO WHAT!

I have noticed a glaze over some posters EYES who don't really act like they really want to understand, and I mean REALLY understand someone different then themselves or maybe it's just emotional or mental blockage.

No one is out to make Lesbian extinct...but she sure is changing and evolving!

[BullDog]

I personally haven't seen anyone object to anyone else not identifying as a lesbian. Are we speaking different languages? WTF

[BullDog]

Bulldog:

I understand and share your frustration and weariness. I, too, am tired of being told that others identity counts, is sacred, is inherently deserving of respect but that my identity is not worth the paper my birth certificate was written on. If I were a butch who was a transman, or preferred to be called 'he' or rejected the word lesbian then I would be hoisted upon many shoulders and carried through the virtual town square with shouts of Huzzah! Huzzah! However, because I prefer (in fact insist) that I be called 'she' and embrace the word lesbian, my identity, my commitment to equality, all manner of imprecations can be drawn about my motives with absolute and utter impunity.

To me, it is important for words to have meaning and for special pleading to be kept to a minimum. As a black woman, I know--intimately, from the very moments that I was aware that there was a society outside of my family--that in a world where special pleading is allowed to run rampant, eventually, inevitably, I and my people will lose. How so? "All men are created equal (except blacks)". That was the reigning ideology for first 190 years of America's existence as a nation-state. Racism is a case of special pleading "for everyone excepting them". Even when it looks like special pleading might make me a winner by working in my favor, it doesn't. Affirmative action being a particular case. I have heard people say behind my back(and to my face) that I was nothing more than an affirmative action hire. So even a system that allegedly is supposed to benefit me works against me because rules are not being applied equally.

If we can define words to mean whatever the hell we want them to mean, in the moment that it is convenient for us to do so, as if this were through the looking glass, then what is to stop a heterosexual, chromosonal (XY) male from saying "I identify as a lesbian and therefore, I get to come into lesbian spaces and talk about lesbians as an authority because I am a lesbian". If lesbian has no necessary connection to either being woman (whatever your chromosomes are--to me a transwoman is a woman) or homosexual then what is a lesbian? It appears that, in fact, what is being said is that lesbian has neither a proximate or sufficient relationship to either the words female (or woman) or homosexual.

Lastly, it makes me wonder--as I sometimes wonder about the field of biology--what our sins as lesbians (or butches) were that our identities are not worthy of respect. And they are consistently treated as if they are not. It is not all in our heads. Too many of us, from too many disparate backgrounds, all seem to keep coming to this same place of "why is it okay for the most horrible things to be said about butches (or lesbians) but it is a capital crime to say anything, including the idea that lesbian identity is worthy of some respect, that might be taken as diminishing by someone of a different identity". I have tried, to the best of my ability, to step back from this and try to work off the assumption that it is all in my head. I then run little thought experiments based upon my own observations of how my species behaves and end up coming back to 'this doesn't really quite work'. I wish I knew what my sins were, as a butch, female-identified, lesbian so that if they are ongoing sins I could at least change my behavior and put myself, once again, in the circle of those who are considered worthy of respect. If my sins are wholly in the past, I would like to know what they were.

Yet no one will tell us the nature of our crimes, the charges are not read to us and we are not even allowed to challenge our accusers or cross-examine our prosecutors. Any attempts to do so are immediately dismissed.

It seems that all one has to do is say "FOR ME" and one is given a free pass to say anything one wishes about lesbians or butches and call us children of some lesser and unworthy god.

Cheers
Aj

Thank you for this post Aj. The first paragraph in particular rings so true for me. Sometimes I feel I am either so out of touch or am losing my mind. Truly the lack of respect is appalling to me.

[Cyclopea]

OH MY GOD...this is just unbelievable!!!

I can't wait to get back in here!!!! LOL!

Just because you are a Lesbian, taking offense to others not IDing as a Lesbian, not liking the word Lesbian or not relating to what some may call "Lesbian Sex" is just selfish and ridiculous!

YOU are a Lesbian! GREAT! I LOVE Lesbians!!!! We LOVE Lesbians. I do not identify as one! Many of us do not identify as one! SO WHAT!

I have noticed a glaze over some posters EYES who don't really act like they really want to understand, and I mean REALLY understand someone different then themselves or maybe it's just emotional or mental blockage.

No one is out to make Lesbian extinct...but she sure is changing and evolving!

You talk about us here and how much you love us and then state that we are selfish and ridiculous for taking offense at non-lesbians who express their dislike of the words we use to describe ourselves. That seems to dilute the whole "love" message. In fact it seems wildly disrespectful and dismissive- not loving at all.
You conclude that we are Changing and Evolving. What exactly do you mean by that?

[Jett]

OH MY GOD...this is just unbelievable!!!

I can't wait to get back in here!!!! LOL!

Just because you are a Lesbian, taking offense to others not IDing as a Lesbian, not liking the word Lesbian or not relating to what some may call "Lesbian Sex" is just selfish and ridiculous!

YOU are a Lesbian! GREAT! I LOVE Lesbians!!!! We LOVE Lesbians. I do not identify as one! Many of us do not identify as one! SO WHAT!

I have noticed a glaze over some posters EYES who don't really act like they really want to understand, and I mean REALLY understand someone different then themselves or maybe it's just emotional or mental blockage.

No one is out to make Lesbian extinct...but she sure is changing and evolving!

Your excitement and laughter at coming back calling people out on such a sensitive subject where so many have expressed hurt feelings is disconcerting to say the least... but what ever floats your boat.

All I can say to that is please quote where people actually stated they take offense to others not ID'ing as lesbian when you do... the last thing that's needed here is more twisting and misunderstanding of peoples statements just to stir the pot.

Not saying that you like to do that... would just like to see people using quotes INSTEAD of restating people comments using entirely different words... hence changing the context... and then arguing the altered context.

[hippieflowergirl]

well hi.

sorry it took me so long to get back into the swing of the discussion. i'm not avoiding. some last minute research kept me busy until now.

since i seem to be the trouble-starter this week i'd like to begin with an apology to anyone i've offended with my opinions and my lack of understanding, whether real or perceived.

for my real lack of understanding, i beg patience. i am not unwilling to be wrong, to admit wrongness, to be taught, to learn and to grow. i welcome the opportunity.

for my perceived lack of understanding, i beg tolerance. if i am not being clear it is because i do not know i am being unclear, not because i am obtuse or because i simply refuse to be clear. we use language differently, even if the language is the same one. we use it differently because we are different from one another, even if we are all human. we have different filters, different experiences, different minds and philosophies, and different abilities with regard to critical thinking. i will be the first to admit that i have noticed some cognitive challenges in the last year, mostly having to do with short term memory and with some long term recall. neither of those things hamper my feeling, nor do they hamper my desire to participate positively in conversation, even difficult conversation, and to listen and learn and contribute and be heard.

i'd like to clear up any misunderstanding my posts may have created for anyone by saying the following:

1) i have absolutely no issue with the word "lesbian". i have no issue with any word of which i can think. because language and semiotics and marginalization make up the bulk of my work, i find it difficult to take offense with words, symbolism or the life experiences of others, period.

2) i do not identify my self, my life, my core, my being or my experiences as being a "lesbian" self, life, core, being or experiences. if others do, then they do. i dont have any feelings about the identifying words of others except to acknowledge and respect them and to use those words as required by the people who adopt them. i feel nothing but respect for the experiences of others. i have no need or desire (overt or hidden) to feel otherwise.

3) i have no issue with a dictionary definition of any word. limitations in print demand that many definitions be curtailed. dictionaries change every year. words are added and eliminated. there are dictionaries for "archaic" language and urban dictionaries and culturally relevant dictionaries and so on ad nauseum. none of them are "wrong" or "right" so much as they just "are". they account for the averaging of a particular language as well as a collective human understanding of concepts and ideas. they do not, however, encompass all that "is". there exists too much of everything for that.

4) if one person feels complete and satisfied with the definition of the word "Dog" as one that encompasses all domestic canines, i am not offended. if another person feels the same definition is limiting of specifics and variation and nuances and so on, i am not offended. if someone does not feel the word "Dog" encompasses all that some dogs are, i am not offended. i understand that my analogy is silly...but it serves my point somewhat. if a person says X is the word i use to identify myself with then i too refer to them as X. if someone says i do not use the word X...i use the word Y...then i also use the word Y to refer to them. my opinion and my language do not matter. Y is the word i use, out of respect primarily. my understanding expands to encompass the word Y as something new in my paradigm. that is evolution on the individual level. many individuals, all expanding their paradigm, leads to evolution on a more global level. it is critical thinking and philosophical growth at its best.

5) i am neither a "lesbian" by the dictionary definition nor by a personal one. i do not partner with people who identify themselves as women. i partner with transguys and/or male ID'd butches. the words i use are not "gay", "lesbian", or "homosexual" because i do not feel they are right for me. i do not have a single solitary issue with any of those words or anyone who uses them to define themselves. they are simply not my words. i do not speak for anyone except myself unless i am relating the stories and experiences i've been privy to and am free to relate and then, i am not doing so to represent anyone, i am simply relating a story. i do not speak FOR anyone except myself. any belief to the contrary is mistaken.

6) if someone tells me they are X...because they've been told they are X or the dictionary defines them as X...i worry, but i accept their decision. if the same person tells me they are X...because they feel X and they know they are X then i accept them as X and do not worry. i expect the same in return. as an example, if a person tells me they are a butch, female identified lesbian then i go forward using those words for that friend. if someone tells me they are a male identified butch, a genderqueer person, a lesbian, a transguy, a man, intersexed or that they use specific pronouns (hy, hir, ze, she, he and so on) i assimilate those words for that friend. it is not confusing to me and it does not bother me. i wouldnt presume to be bothered by the words anyone else uses for themselves.

7) i expect to be treated with the same consideration i extend. when i am not, i remove myself from the situation. if i am considered unacceptable it does not bother me. i am comfortable being unacceptable. moreso than i would be conforming to an identity that is not mine.

i am a queer transsensual femme. as with all people, my understanding of myself continues to evolve as my mind evolves in its role as part of cultural and global evolution. when someone calls me a lesbian i am going to engage in conversation with them and give them different words for me. i am going to do that because i respect myself and because i respect them enough to share myself with them on a personal level. i grew up in a world where lesbian was the ONLY word to use. as the world and my understanding changed i realized i was using a word that did not belong to me. it is not only out of respect for myself that i now use different words, but because i see some of the nuances of words that makes me feel as though i am being moe respectful of others when i DONT use the word for myself. that may be an odd-Kathlene-only phenomenon, but it is how i feel nonetheless.

words dont offend me. they are tools. mistakes dont offend me. they are also tools. intent and intention are the things that can carry the weight of offense in my world. regardless of my feelings, in the moment or long term, i also choose to believe that things are not solely as i see them...because it is impossible for me to see everything. i will be honest about my own feelings. that's the point of this long-winded and slightly pedantic post. in the same long breath, i refuse to presume that anyone here has either intent or intention to harm/offend/marginalize me.

thanx for playing.


:hippie:

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