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05-17-2010, 09:15 AM | #1 |
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The Femme Continuum: The "Highs" and "Lows" of Visibility
There was some discussion going on over in another thread about Female masculinity and how there is a certain "celebration" around a Butch person moving toward a "more masculine" way of being with adopting male pronouns, transitioning, etc.
That discussion sparked me to start thinking a little more critically about how the Femme community impacts and is impacted by this same continuum of "being more homogenous/acceptable/feminine (and insert any number of things that mean "more than what you already are")". How do we as Femmes impact the visibility of Female Butches? Do we, as Femmes, have a continuum in our own community where the hyper-feminine is more valid/valued? What does that look like to you when it's in action? How does this continuum affect our visibility or does it? There was also some discussion around pronoun usage and several folks brought up what it might look/feel like to a Femme if she were "he'd" on a regular basis out in the world but also (and especially) in this community. Thoughts on this? I'm having some thoughts on visibility and the celebration of movement toward each end of the spectrum for both Femmes and Butches. Particularly Im thinking about how there is something going on with Butches being celebrated as they move toward a more masculine presence and Femmes being celebrated if they maintain a more "hyper" Femme way of being. (Although I will say that I personally don't feel a huge push in our community to be more "valid" as Femmes by being "more" Femme) Im thinking about how all of these things might affect our visibility as Femmes and how much we do/should care if we are invisible to the outside world. Do you think it is important for people to see you as Femme? Do you feel seen as a Femme in this community? How do you think your experience as a Femme with invisibility is affected by the marginalization of Female Butches? I realize this is kinda random but I wanted to at least start the discussion and throw some questions out there to get us rolling. I havent had coffee this morning so I apologize if this is jumbled.
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. . . Last edited by Medusa; 05-17-2010 at 09:33 AM. |
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05-17-2010, 10:05 AM | #2 |
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Interestingly enough, here in Western Mass, behind the tofu curtain, I am seen as extra feminine, whatever that means.
I don't think of myself as a high femme, since I generally associate that with a choice of gender markers, but others have said that I am in fact a hippy-flavored high femme. |
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05-17-2010, 10:09 AM | #3 |
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I think it's interesting to see how many views people get on their pics depending how masculine or feminine they appear. It's not a scientific study, but it does seem that the MORE of the societial standard of feminine and masculine the more views people seem to have.
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05-17-2010, 10:43 AM | #4 | |
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05-17-2010, 10:55 AM | #5 |
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I do see a hierarchy in the femme "realm" just as I do with butch.
It's appears to me to not only have to do with outdated policed perceptions of femininity in mannerisms and appearance, but also how you identify- a to z, lesbian to transsensual... high to low... and strangely enough sometimes to where you're partner falls in the "butch hierarchy". Oh let's not forget... how a femme behaves in the bedroom, because god forbid she top a butch... or straps (eta: or has so-called "lesbian sex"). Good thread... I'll be interested in hearing more. Metro
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Last edited by Jett; 05-17-2010 at 10:59 AM. |
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05-17-2010, 11:04 AM | #6 | |
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And don't even get me started on the idea that Femmes are somehow "damaged" straight women. Or straight women who are too fat or ugly to "get a real man". I feel a tangent comin' on.
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05-17-2010, 11:06 AM | #7 |
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What an exciting thread topic - I'm really looking forward to reading everybody's responses.
When I first entered the femmebutch community, I felt lots of pressure to be more feminine. At first, it was also rather fun to get all dolled up. Also it felt freeing to play with beauty, style, femininity and know that my intended audience was queer - I felt a lot of release from the male gaze when I first entered the community. But I'm afraid I also transferred that internalized male gaze onto butches and felt somewhat oppressed because of it. As far as pressures go, I have over time become more frustrated with not being interpreted as queer at all - which in a way counterbalances the other pressures. * I do resent what I see as pressure from within the community to be as straight-seeming or straight-looking as possible in order to have femme cred, but I haven't encountered that message overtly all that often. These days I just am myself. I am feminine (I think), but not super-feminine. I just try to be authentic and I avoid people who would not appreciate me for that.
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05-17-2010, 11:11 AM | #8 |
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There seems to be awful lot of rules for what women can look like (and act like) and be seen and taken seriously as queer/lesbian.
It seems hyper feminine is seen as the top of the femme hierarchy (most valued) but at the same time seen as the most suspect (supposedly more straight appearing), in terms of being legitimately queer/lesbian. Why is feminine associated with straight and masculine associated with lesbian/queer when it comes to women?
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05-17-2010, 12:34 PM | #9 | |
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I am so glad for this thread. It often feels like we take the full spectrum of femme identity for granted and are terribly narrow in what we consider femme. Compare the number of threads about butch identity to femme identity in terms of stereotypes predicated on the B-F dynamic. Thanks to all in advance and I am listening to you all! This is a great opportunity for butches to get the facts! |
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05-17-2010, 01:53 PM | #10 |
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And I would like others in our very own community to stop looking right through us when they meet us on the street in automatic assumption we are straight.
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05-17-2010, 03:22 PM | #11 | ||
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I'm never recognized as queer unless I'm on the arm of a butch. It's kind of a drag for a single person. Short of wearing a rainbow jumpsuit I'm not sure what to do about it. Quote:
She's married to a woman. I don't really know how either she or her wife identify but I think it's unkind to reduce a couple's relationship to a "publicity boost". |
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05-17-2010, 03:27 PM | #12 |
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Do we know Portia? How do we know she is straight? I mean, she had a pretty great career before Ellen being in Ally McBeal, and had a G/F even back then.
Isn't this what we are talking about? How unless we look Butch people think we are straight women? Taking Butches away from 'real" Lesbians. I had other things to say, but this stopped me in my tracks. UGH.
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05-17-2010, 03:30 PM | #13 | |
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My experience has been that if you get to know me as a femme, person or in an intimate relationship, you are gonna know I am queer. My language, ideals, politics, religion, sex, I know for *me* once you start a conversation it sounds nothing like that of a straight woman. Make sense?
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05-17-2010, 02:30 PM | #14 | |
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Now I realize we are all not like this... (Looking at Snowy ) I am femme. Probably considered very femme, by appearances. It pisses me off that there is a stereotype attached to us, that we are all bottoms/subs, etc. I can be whatever the fuck I want. In the world we all make assumptions about people, everyday. I wish that in my OWN community this didn't happen... but I don't know if that is possible.
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05-17-2010, 02:55 PM | #15 |
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I'd like to explore how Femme Top energy isn't always in a masculine or "Daddy" form.
But yes, Femme often equals "fuckee" in a lot of people's minds. Even when it does, I don't think it should equal "less than".
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05-17-2010, 03:00 PM | #16 | ||
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05-17-2010, 03:16 PM | #17 |
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I've no clue if Portia is a Femme, or uses that gender identity, I believe though she has been dating women since 04 how long do we hold on to the straight chick label before we are ok'd to be gay, queer etc?
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05-17-2010, 03:17 PM | #18 |
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From the Advocate interview: "Christine would probably kill me for saying this, but my daughter said one time that if you really had to break this down, [it looks like] she would be butch and I would be femme…but really once you get to know us it’s really the opposite.” Does this out them as a Butch-Femme couple? Or not? Curious. |
05-17-2010, 03:23 PM | #19 | |
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But do they see them as femmes or feminine lesbians??
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