The Femme Continuum: The "Highs" and "Lows" of Visibility

[Pretty Woman]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

I can't think of any. Not that I don't sometimes want to label somebody, like say...Portia Derossi and Ellen. The thing is, they haven't mentioned it and though I'd love it, it's not so. The very FACT that I want to label them a cute Butch Femme couple is wrong. I think it comes from desperately wanting role models and people "like me" in my every day media.

But Portia Derossi isn't femme! She is a straight chick that was looking for a publicity boost! But did anyone see the Cynthia Nixon interview last week where she referred to her butch fiancee as 'a man with boobs'? Honestly, I was offended as it struck me as apologetically homophobic!

Originally Posted by Linus

I don't think that's wrong. I know that Kirsten Vangsness is gay and for some reason struck me as femme but not sure why. (I don't believe she's in a B-F relationship however). I think the media is stuck on the idea that a femme is a non-existent being (being lesbian and being feminine is not allowed as far as the MSM is concerned -- unless it's pr0n.)

I couldn't disagree more. I often feel that the only 'acceptables' are femmes...the straighter looking the better. And that butches only get noticed by the MSM when the media wants us for a freak show. Sort of analogous to when the local news only shows the Radical Fairies at gay pride.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I've no clue if Portia is a Femme, or uses that gender identity, I believe though she has been dating women since 04 how long do we hold on to the straight chick label before we are ok'd to be gay, queer etc?

[SuperFemme]

From the Advocate interview:

"Christine would probably kill me for saying this, but my daughter said one time that if you really had to break this down, [it looks like] she would be butch and I would be femme…but really once you get to know us it’s really the opposite.”

Does this out them as a Butch-Femme couple? Or not? Curious.

[SuperFemme]

Sorry, I didn't mean to derail. It was a bad example...regarding representation in mainstream media.

[Linus]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

I can't think of any. Not that I don't sometimes want to label somebody, like say...Portia Derossi and Ellen. The thing is, they haven't mentioned it and though I'd love it, it's not so. The very FACT that I want to label them a cute Butch Femme couple is wrong. I think it comes from desperately wanting role models and people "like me" in my every day media.

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

Sorry, I didn't mean to derail. It was a bad example...regarding representation in mainstream media.

I don't know if it's that much of a derail (IMO) to want role models. MSM is where we tend to look. Why not celebrate in a femme who is a major figure (model, actor, politician, whatever)?

[Apocalipstic]

I have had people say I am just a straight woman and that I want a man.

I have been an out Lesbian since 1984. I strap on. I love pussy. I have a girlfriend.

What does it take to accepted as Femme?

To have no one jealous of me who just says shit?

What does Portia have to do?

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by Linus

I don't know if it's that much of a derail (IMO) to want role models. MSM is where we tend to look. Why not celebrate in a femme who is a major figure (model, actor, politician, whatever)?

I think it is normal to want role models. We have the unique opportunity of having a teenager that id's as a bisexual Femme. I find it fascinating that because she has been socialized in a Butch/Femme household that it is all normal for her. We pay special attention because the house is often filled with baby butches and femmes who are drawn here like moths to flame.

I wonder what I'd be like today had I been socialized in a Butch/Femme environment?

[BullDog]

I certainly understand June's point about wanting stories from us, but why is a feminine appearing woman's status (whether femme or not) as lesbian/queer more often than not in doubt? She's been dating women since 1999, been married to a woman since 2008. Is anyone wondering whether the more androgynous Ellen is really a lesbian?

Anyway, here's a recent interview Portia de Rossi did

http://www.advocate.com/article.aspx?id=106125

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I certainly understand June's point about wanting stories from us, but why is a feminine appearing woman's status (whether femme or not) as lesbian/queer more often than not in doubt? She's been dating women since 1999, been married to a woman since 2008. Is anyone wondering whether the more androgynous Ellen is really a lesbian?

Anyway, here's a recent interview Portia de Rossi did

http://www.advocate.com/article.aspx?id=106125

The more feminine one appears, the more people put our value down.. I know for me sometimes my own peers will not recognize or ignore that I am femme unless I have a masculine appearing counterpart on my arm oh wait more like me on theirs..

Make sense?

[Apocalipstic]

I guess I don't know what to say now.

I mean all we can do is say we are Femme. If someone wants to think we are just straight women then they are free to say whatever they want to say.

A year or so ago someone I considered a really good friend said I was just a straight woman and implied I cheated on Cynthia with men. I am still speechless and very hurt.

All we can do in response is just be ourselves.

I do think it is important to note that when Femmes say "oh so and so is not really Femme or even Queer" it demeans all of us. It's like the ultimate insult for someone Femmes don't like. The ultimate cut. Be who I want you to be or with who I want you to be with or you are a straight woman.

What answer is there for that?

[Linus]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

I guess I don't know what to say now.

I mean all we can do is say we are Femme. If someone wants to think we are just straight women then they are free to say whatever they want to say.

A year or so ago someone I considered a really good friend said I was just a straight woman and implied I cheated on Cynthia with men. I am still speechless and very hurt.

All we can do in response is just be ourselves.

I do think it is important to note that when Femmes say "oh so and so is not really Femme or even Queer" it demeans all of us. It's like the ultimate insult for someone Femmes don't like. The ultimate cut. Be who I want you to be or with who I want you to be with or you are a straight woman.

What answer is there for that?

Educate them.

You will need to educate people since it's not in MSM and they won't understand otherwise if they are not clued in. It sucks to have to out yourself each time to educate them but unfortunately, it's a reality in society (it's a page from the trans community and sometimes, something we have to do; I haven't had to do this yet but have no qualms about doing it if the situation ever rises -- I'm already used to educating colleagues who should know but..).

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

I guess I don't know what to say now.

I mean all we can do is say we are Femme. If someone wants to think we are just straight women then they are free to say whatever they want to say.

A year or so ago someone I considered a really good friend said I was just a straight woman and implied I cheated on Cynthia with men. I am still speechless and very hurt.

All we can do in response is just be ourselves.

I do think it is important to note that when Femmes say "oh so and so is not really Femme or even Queer" it demeans all of us. It's like the ultimate insult for someone Femmes don't like. The ultimate cut. Be who I want you to be or with who I want you to be with or you are a straight woman.

What answer is there for that?

This is where I feel Femme's are more fierce when it comes to criticizing one another.. We tend to go for the jugular... I am not straight, straight looking, straight acting nothing. Yes I was married, I have been tagged as *breeder* and NONE of that can take away from what I am

That is Femme... combat boots and all.

[Linus]

Originally Posted by Pretty Woman

But Portia Derossi isn't femme! She is a straight chick that was looking for a publicity boost! But did anyone see the Cynthia Nixon interview last week where she referred to her butch fiancee as 'a man with boobs'? Honestly, I was offended as it struck me as apologetically homophobic!

I couldn't disagree more. I often feel that the only 'acceptables' are femmes...the straighter looking the better. And that butches only get noticed by the MSM when the media wants us for a freak show. Sort of analogous to when the local news only shows the Radical Fairies at gay pride.

But do they see them as femmes or feminine lesbians??

[Pretty Woman]

Originally Posted by Semantics

Oh. Do you know her?

She's married to a woman. I don't really know how either she or her wife identify but I think it's unkind to reduce a couple's relationship to a "publicity boost".

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I've no clue if Portia is a Femme, or uses that gender identity, I believe though she has been dating women since 04 how long do we hold on to the straight chick label before we are ok'd to be gay, queer etc?

To both, I do know (of) her in the one degree of separation kind of way. Do either of you?

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Pretty Woman

To both, I do know (of) her in the one degree of separation kind of way. Do either of you?

How come she had girlfriends before Ellen?

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Pretty Woman

To both, I do know (of) her in the one degree of separation kind of way. Do either of you?

No, I have no friends who know of her, know her, so no I don't know her enough to say if she is Femme, straight, or if she is out to trick the world with her wiley straight ways and pretend she is gay.

I am clueless... I just figured she was married to Ellen, dated some singer in 04 who happened to be a woman, made her a lil on the gay side of the spectrum.

I am wrong, I guess?

[SuperFemme]

I'm not willing to denounce any Queer's membership to Queerdom, especially when they've come out in Hollywood. I wish MORE people in the entertainment industry would be out...I really do.

[JustJo]

Hi everyone

I've been reading this thread since it started and was all ready to post...and then Linus tossed this one in there...

Originally Posted by Linus

But do they see them as femmes or feminine lesbians??

Now, I know this was about mainstream media and all of that public perception stuff, but it also got me thinking...and I've been chewing on it ever since. I'm one of those who took a very long time to figure myself out...for a variety of reasons I won't even begin to go into here. What I do know is that when I finally discovered the butch-femme community it clicked and felt right to me in a way that neither the straight community or the andro-lesbian community did.

I know I'm femme. It's when I start trying to explain and define it that I get into rough ground...and Linus' post is a part of that.

I'm naturally pretty feminine, and am comfortable with that. I wear skirts and dresses, like my nails manicured and prefer kitten heels to pretty much anything else. I like to cook, love to bake, am squeamish, giggle...pretty cliched stuff. However, I'm also stubborn, headstrong, extremely independent and capable. I have an advanced degree, a professional job, and run my own life. I don't need anyone to take care of me...never have since the age of about 14. Anyone who tries to tell me how to think will get an earful...and then some.

So am I "feminine" in the traditional sense? In some ways, yes. In others, not even close. Maybe what I am is not so much feminine as feminist...defining my own femaleness on my own terms.

So then the lesbian part of Linus' question...am I? Well, yea...based on the fact that I'm in a relationship with and love a woman...yes. However, the woman I love is butch... and I'm not attracted at all to feminine or androgynous women. So...what does this all mean?

Am I femme because I'm attracted to butches? That can't be it...I see plenty of femmes who are attracted to other femmes. And if I'm not in a relationship with a butch it isn't like my identity vanishes either. I can be a celibate femme, a femme who loves other femmes, a femme who loves butches....all of those are still femme...even if they aren't my style of being femme.

All of these are spinning around in my head right now....feminine, feminist, femme...and I don't know where the lines are for me. In many ways, I wear the label "femme" as a way to help others know me, at least a little, before they know me for real...as my own unique self. I'm left feeling that my screen name describes it better than my femme label....because when it all boils down to what's really true and important...I'm just Jo.

[SassyLeo]

Originally Posted by Pretty Woman

But Portia Derossi isn't femme! She is a straight chick that was looking for a publicity boost!

I cannot tell if you are being glib? Because I don't believe that at all. Are you sure you don't mean Anne Heche?

Originally Posted by Pretty Woman

But did anyone see the Cynthia Nixon interview last week where she referred to her butch fiancee as 'a man with boobs'? Honestly, I was offended as it struck me as apologetically homophobic!

Uh, yes. There is a whole thread about that here: http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/foru...ead.php?t=1357

Originally Posted by Pretty Woman

I couldn't disagree more. I often feel that the only 'acceptables' are femmes...the straighter looking the better. And that butches only get noticed by the MSM when the media wants us for a freak show. Sort of analogous to when the local news only shows the Radical Fairies at gay pride.