Male ID butch vs. FTM??

[Chazz]

Thank you for the exchange, SelfMadeMan.

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

My use of the term "pissing contest" was referencing the drama that, at times, goes down when members of the two groups attempt to have a discussion about the issues between them.

Yes, I understood that.

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

Of course there are genuine differences, the two groups are different, yet under the same umbrella. The pissing contest comes when one group doesn't feel that the other belongs under that umbrella, being the greater GLBT community.

Yes, there are different groups under the umbrella. One group self-defines primarily on the bases of sexual orientation. Another on the bases of gender. Some lesbians see gender as fluid others as an artificial construct. And so on.... I am aware of the issues.

The reality is there are a number of smaller umbrellas under the LGBTQ umbrella. This is not an occasion for "pissing contests"; it's a situation that calls for mutual accommodation where and when possible. When that is not possible, as is sometimes the case, respectful disengagement is an alternative.

Would that the expectation be: We meet where and when we can, so that the burden of unanimity be lifted from all our shoulders.

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

I know as well as anyone how real this issue is, I live it every day, as do the rest of BOTH our communities.

Yes, most of us do "live it every day".

Implied in your phrase: "....BOTH our communities", is an acknowledgment that people are differently located. It's all most of us can can do to navigate our own personal landscapes, let alone someone else's.

With few exceptions, I don't expect that my issues need be any one else's issues, including, people standing under my little umbrella.

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

Perhaps I come into this discussion with rose colored glasses, but I see NO reason there can't be mutual respect between the Butch and Trans communities. In order to respect one another and stop attacking one another, doesn't mean each individual group must abandon their own issues and struggles.

To the extent that there is mutual disrespect, I don't think it necessarily has to do with the expectation that one abandon her/his "issues and struggles", except when it does. I think it has to do with not respecting other peoples' opinions. Which is not to say that all opinions are equally respectable. A moral relativist, I'm not.

However, I do think that there has sometimes been a prioritizing of concerns within the LGBTQ community that doesn't necessarily encompass everybody's "issues and struggles". Take the EDNA controversy for instance.

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

It is a fact that the rift between Butches and Transmen is affecting our community as a whole. It isn't catastrophizing, it is real.

Catastrophizing is real.

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

I've been told by Butches that the Trans vote for women's issues and equality isn't wanted.

My neighbor, Dick, is a dyed in the wool homophobe. I appreciate his voting in agreement with me, nevertheless.

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

While I realize that isn't the majority of Butches, that attitude is still a huge problem for this community. If two groups are different in their issues, then one shouldn't worry about the other? This is exactly what I'm talking about...

I understand your frustration, SelfMadeMan. However, there are places where agendas/perspectives do diverge and conflict. Ignoring, glossing over those areas may serve one, but not both, constituencies. Sometimes agreeing to disagree IS the only respectful route.

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

I am not willing to just say, ok we're different and have different perspectives, so I can't respect yours. This isn't about ignoring these two groups individual issues, it's about solidarity and respect - and that IS possible.

Solidarity in all things is not always possible. The expectation of solidarity can foster enmity.

Respect is earned, provisional, contingent. Beyond respecting my fundamental human rights, you are under no obligation to respect, or agree, with me. If I choose to feel disrespected, it's because you're triggering something in me.