Male ID butch vs. FTM??

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by Thinker

I admit it. My emotions got the better of me on that one. It's kinda funny because we were just discussing not taking "bait" earlier in this thread, and I took it hook, line, and sinker on this one!

Oops...

I think it is great that you guys stepped in!

[Thinker]

Originally Posted by nycfembbw

my belief that trans men/ FTMs/ men who join and participate on this site are already showing an identification with or sensitivity to feminist and queer issues

This is nice. I never really thought to put it that way. And I certainly like this particular perspective over "why would a (trans)man even come to this site".

Thanks.

[AtLast]

Trying to think of a way to be able to discuss some of the similarities that are coming up for me with FTM's and male identified butches (I'm female identified). Always fascinates me when I read about things like (TD brought this up) being called sir and ma'am all in the same day, just in different stores. I also feel areas of male privilege come up.

But, I don't feel comfortable doing this here- this is in the Trans Zone and the theme of the thread is for FTMs and male identified butches- yet I sure feel crossover. Certainly this can apply with physical violence issues.

I don't want to start another thread in another zone in which FTMs or male identified butches wouldn't feel invited into to give their opinions as well as femmes, MTFs (or any identification thereof).

Often, I feel there is much more in common among all of us and maybe that is a way to transcend "speculation," generalizations," etc.

[Thinker]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

Often, I feel there is much more in common among all us

I agree with you on this with my whole heart.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

I don't want to start another thread in another zone in which FTMs or male identified butches wouldn't feel invited into to give their opinions as well as femmes, MTFs (or any identification thereof).

Often, I feel there is much more in common among all of us and maybe that is a way to transcend "speculation," generalizations," etc.

AtLast,

Maybe you could put it in the butch zone (since you are butch), and then you would be inviting the others to join. Title the thread by what genders you want to "compare" (used loosely)...(sounds like you would like to add female butch to the comparison of male id butch and FTM). Then in the opening post, indicate who all you would like/prefer to participate (FTM, butches, femmes, all other identities)

I do think, however, that there might already be a thread somewhere "comparing" (again, wish I had a better word), the different masculine identities, so maybe you want to look first and just post on it.

Good luck if you decide to get something going!

[SelfMadeMan]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

Trying to think of a way to be able to discuss some of the similarities that are coming up for me with FTM's and male identified butches (I'm female identified). Always fascinates me when I read about things like (TD brought this up) being called sir and ma'am all in the same day, just in different stores. I also feel areas of male privilege come up.

But, I don't feel comfortable doing this here- this is in the Trans Zone and the theme of the thread is for FTMs and male identified butches- yet I sure feel crossover. Certainly this can apply with physical violence issues.

I don't want to start another thread in another zone in which FTMs or male identified butches wouldn't feel invited into to give their opinions as well as femmes, MTFs (or any identification thereof).

Often, I feel there is much more in common among all of us and maybe that is a way to transcend "speculation," generalizations," etc.

I'm going out on a limb here, and I can only speak for myself... but I have no problem with you adding your perspective to the conversation here. I feel like there is such a huge divide between the Butch community (regardless of whether you are male or female IDd) and the FTM community, that making you go start your conversation elsewhere would just be adding to that. It is such a huge concern for me and for so many of my brothers, this nasty little 'thing' between some Butches and FTMs. I would really like to keep the conversation going and see if we can't get to some common ground.

[justpjhere]

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

I'm going out on a limb here, and I can only speak for myself... but I have no problem with you adding your perspective to the conversation here. I feel like there is such a huge divide between the Butch community (regardless of whether you are male or female IDd) and the FTM community, that making you go start your conversation elsewhere would just be adding to that. It is such a huge concern for me and for so many of my brothers, this nasty little 'thing' between some Butches and FTMs. I would really like to keep the conversation going and see if we can't get to some common ground.

i have to agree with you...there is a barrier between male identified butches and FTM and there doesnt need to be.

if we seek acceptance by the world in general we have to stand asunited brothers...embrace our differences as well as similarities and stand as strong allies...we all share the same community.

[SelfMadeMan]

Agreed PJ. I don't know when it became a pissing contest, but it's destroying our community. I hear, all too often, that FTMs are recruiting from the Butch community, that we're just Butches that caved to societal pressure, etc etc. I also hear, and have been guilty of thinking in the past myself, that male IDd Butches are just pre-transition FTMs, and that to be Butch, you must be female IDd. I am very ashamed for ever thinking that, and I admit, it was due in large part to my own anger at the transphobia going on in the community. It's all such BS. Each and every one of us have the right to live our own truth, and be respected for who we are as individuals.

[justpjhere]

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

Agreed PJ. I don't know when it became a pissing contest, but it's destroying our community. I hear, all too often, that FTMs are recruiting from the Butch community, that we're just Butches that caved to societal pressure, etc etc. I also hear, and have been guilty of thinking in the past myself, that male IDd Butches are just pre-transition FTMs, and that to be Butch, you must be female IDd. I am very ashamed for ever thinking that, and I admit, it was due in large part to my own anger at the transphobia going on in the community. It's all such BS. Each and every one of us have the right to live our own truth, and be respected for who we are as individuals.

totally agreee brother...we all fall to earth with our own identities and ill defend with my life the right anyone has to be who they want to be...

dont beat yourself up for past feelings...we learn and grow from error and we move on and live not just side by side but in unity...

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

I'm going out on a limb here, and I can only speak for myself... but I have no problem with you adding your perspective to the conversation here. I feel like there is such a huge divide between the Butch community (regardless of whether you are male or female IDd) and the FTM community, that making you go start your conversation elsewhere would just be adding to that. It is such a huge concern for me and for so many of my brothers, this nasty little 'thing' between some Butches and FTMs. I would really like to keep the conversation going and see if we can't get to some common ground.

I think this is a good idea. I didn't feel comfortable recommending it since I do not indentify as FTM or Male Ided butch (I define as TG Butch...which to me is between male and female). Subsequently, I didn't think it to be my place, but I do think that if no one minds it would be a great idea.

[Chazz]

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

Agreed PJ. I don't know when it became a pissing contest, but it's destroying our community. I hear, all too often, that FTMs are recruiting from the Butch community, that we're just Butches that caved to societal pressure, etc etc. I also hear, and have been guilty of thinking in the past myself, that male IDd Butches are just pre-transition FTMs, and that to be Butch, you must be female IDd. I am very ashamed for ever thinking that, and I admit, it was due in large part to my own anger at the transphobia going on in the community. It's all such BS. Each and every one of us have the right to live our own truth, and be respected for who we are as individuals.

I don't see "a pissing contest". I see genuine differences in perspective. This is real.

Nor do I see SelfMadeMan as having had beliefs that are uncommon to this community. I simply see SelfMadeMan admitting to them which is, I think, good. It's a begin point.

Just because a conversation gets heated and/or messy doesn't mean it isn't necessary or productive. The fact that conversations such as this have been stifled within the LGBTQ community IS, I believe, a source of much of the divisiveness.

Coming into a discussion like this with the expectation that there can be a meeting of the minds is unrealistic. There is history and cultural (writ large) factors that must be parsed before that can happen, if at all. This too is for the good.

What would the world be like if we all of a single mind? It wouldn't be perfection, it would be us ceding our autonomy.

We are all in transition in the truest sense of the term. Identity is, after all, an ongoing evolutionary process. I am not the dyke now that I was a 20, 30, or 40. A sincere thank you to the Universe for that.

There are two, separate and distinct ontological "arguments" going on in this discussion. For the sake of brevity let's say, Thinker represents one, Bulldog the other. In the end, a complete meeting of the minds may not be possible. Certain lived experiences under patriarchy may preclude that possibility. So be it ! What's the alternative? Catastrophizing over the lack of perfect community?

Would it really be so terrible if there really are places where we diverge in our experiences and belief systems? The fact is we do. It isn't any body's job to make another feel good with her/himself. That tenet too often gets lost in the mix.

“Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.” ~ Jalal ad-Din Rumi

[SelfMadeMan]

I don't see "a pissing contest". I see genuine differences in perspective. This is real.

My use of the term "pissing contest" was referencing the drama that, at times, goes down when members of the two groups attempt to have a discussion about the issues between them. Of course there are genuine differences, the two groups are different, yet under the same umbrella. The pissing contest comes when one group doesn't feel that the other belongs under that umbrella, being the greater GLBT community. I know as well as anyone how real this issue is, I live it every day, as do the rest of BOTH our communities. Perhaps I come into this discussion with rose colored glasses, but I see NO reason there can't be mutual respect between the Butch and Trans communities. In order to respect one another and stop attacking one another, doesn't mean each individual group must abandon their own issues and struggles. It is a fact that the rift between Butches and Transmen is affecting our community as a whole. It isn't catastrophizing, it is real. I've been told by Butches that the Trans vote for women's issues and equality isn't wanted. While I realize that isn't the majority of Butches, that attitude is still a huge problem for this community. If two groups are different in their issues, then one shouldn't worry about the other? This is exactly what I'm talking about... I am not willing to just say, ok we're different and have different perspectives, so I can't respect yours. This isn't about ignoring these two groups individual issues, it's about solidarity and respect - and that IS possible.

[BullDog]

Thanks SelfMadeMan for your invitation to participate.

Sometimes I honestly think what we have in common is the discrimination that we face, and it feels kind of uncomfortable for me to rally around persecution as something to bond over. However in a political sense it is quite smart and necessary.

Also, I am not sure if the statements about Brotherhood were intended for all butches and transmen or just male identified butches and transmen. If it was the latter, it makes sense. If it was the former, I don't relate. I don't really relate all that well to someone I don't know calling me Sister either, but if we are talking inclusion I don't want to always have to translate everything in my head. I never hear anyone talking about Butches and Transmen uniting together in Sisterhood.

Transmen are part of the butch femme community because it resonates with them. I get that and appreciate that. I understand that transmen feel the complexities of their lives are not understood and they are branded as the "enemy." We can bond over the fact that we are in a community together and there are some commonalities we share, for sure. I too have been sirred and maa'med all in the same day on many occasions.

To me a simple request from a femme to be aware of male privilege when in the presence of women and the harm that can potentially cause women due to the inequalities between men and women that exist in society should be listened to and not met with such hostility and defensiveness. She was talking about interpersonal interactions.

Also, in my opinion, the root of homophobia and transphobia is sexism. It is in everyone's best interest to understand the roots and intersections. I don't believe in any shape or form that Homophobia or Transphobia can be wiped out with sexism fully in place. Transphobia is specific but it also comes from sexism. Take for example the case of Nikki Araguz for those who are familiar with her story. She is denied being taking seriously as a woman but at the very same time being treated in a very sexist manner as the "gold digging" woman. When transmen are denied their male status they are viewed as "not real men." These cases are transphobia but they are also very rooted in sexism. Right now the Republican Party in the United States is waging a war on women. This won't make it easier for queers or trans people either when trying to limit women or put them into place.

So I think transmen should talk about the complexities of their lives and we should listen. I also think transmen should listen to what women are saying about living as a woman in a sexist world. Hopefully we can learn from each other, have fun hanging out together and help each other out where we can.

[Stacy]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Thanks SelfMadeMan for your invitation to participate.

So I think transmen should talk about the complexities of their lives and we should listen. I also think transmen should listen to what women are saying about living as a woman in a sexist world. Hopefully we can learn from each other, have fun hanging out together and help each other out where we can.

I love this last paragraph. It definitely strikes a cord for me. I am lucky that my husband is also a feminist. He is very proactive in women's Issues and equality for women. He has helped me raise two very strong, feminist daughters. He has helped me empower them, and he has helped me empower myself. I am grateful for that every day. He has not forgotten the community where he spent a large portion of his adult life. He oftens speaks out and stands up for the rights of all those in the GLBTQIAA community, not just the T. I believe what affects one of us, affects us all.

[SelfMadeMan]

Sometimes I honestly think what we have in common is the discrimination that we face, and it feels kind of uncomfortable for me to rally around persecution as something to bond over. However in a political sense it is quite smart and necessary.

It is a large part of what we have in common... although I don't really see it as rallying around persecution in the bonding sense, rather, rallying around a shared issue in solidarity. We can bond over lots of issues, that may or may not have anything to do with gender. You and I may share a love of some of the same movies, we may both love cooking (I do), we may both ride Harley's... even though our struggles may be more different than they are similar, we can get along.

Transmen are part of the butch femme community because it resonates with them. I get that and appreciate that. I understand that transmen feel the complexities of their lives are not understood and they are branded as the "enemy." We can bond over the fact that we are in a community together and there are some commonalities we share, for sure. I too have been sirred and maa'med all in the same day on many occasions.

For me, having nowhere else that felt like it fit, I did spend over 10 years as part of the lesbian community, it's where I grew up. I feel a certain investment in the issues that affect the entire GLBT community, but especially, women. As I look back, no, I don't think I was ever a lesbian in the true sense of the word, because I always felt male. But that doesn't change the fact that I lived it to some extent and know the issues - do they all affect me now, as a man? No. But I care.

To me a simple request from a femme to be aware of male privilege when in the presence of women and the harm that can potentially cause women due to the inequalities between men and women that exist in society should be listened to and not met with such hostility and defensiveness. She was talking about interpersonal interactions.

Agreed. I had/have no issues at all with being asked to be aware of male privilege. I have no problem accepting that I gained male privilege with transition. I choose to see this as a positive, because I use that privilege to try and affect the (bio)men in my life, and those I encounter on a daily basis.


So I think transmen should talk about the complexities of their lives and we should listen. I also think transmen should listen to what women are saying about living as a woman in a sexist world. Hopefully we can learn from each other, have fun hanging out together and help each other out where we can.[/QUOTE]

Again, agreed. I think ALL members of the GLBT community should be aware of one another, and not only respect the individual experiences, but have an attitude of solidarity. What does it say to the outside world, the homophobes, if we're attacking one another? I truly feel each of us is interesting in our diversity, I look at the rainbow flag and see the different colors and think of all the unique, wonderful members of the community at large. Maybe I'm naive, but I think we CAN all learn to get along and fight ALL oppression. I would also like to add that I am a Psychology/Gender & Women's Studies major... I care deeply for what women have to say and I know I'm not alone in that. I'm not patting myself on the back, just want to point out that just because I transitioned, didn't mean I had anything against women... I just wasn't one :-)

[Thinker]

Originally Posted by Chazz

There are two, separate and distinct ontological "arguments" going on in this discussion. For the sake of brevity let's say, Thinker represents one, Bulldog the other.

I would just like to go on record as saying that I don't actually believe Bulldog and I are on opposing sides of any argument. Personally, I believe we share many core values and beliefs.

I think the scope of these types of discussion is broader for me because I am a transman. I also don't believe for one second that I am right about any of this and that Bulldog is wrong......or vice versa. I think the "thing" that fires us up just happens to be different. And I think that's okay. I also think, Chazz, that lends itself to what you were saying too.

I applaud your entire post. I just wanted to throw in my two cents on the part I quoted above.

Respectfully,
Thinker

[justpjhere]

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

I don't see "a pissing contest". I see genuine differences in perspective. This is real.

My use of the term "pissing contest" was referencing the drama that, at times, goes down when members of the two groups attempt to have a discussion about the issues between them. Of course there are genuine differences, the two groups are different, yet under the same umbrella. The pissing contest comes when one group doesn't feel that the other belongs under that umbrella, being the greater GLBT community. I know as well as anyone how real this issue is, I live it every day, as do the rest of BOTH our communities. Perhaps I come into this discussion with rose colored glasses, but I see NO reason there can't be mutual respect between the Butch and Trans communities. In order to respect one another and stop attacking one another, doesn't mean each individual group must abandon their own issues and struggles. It is a fact that the rift between Butches and Transmen is affecting our community as a whole. It isn't catastrophizing, it is real. I've been told by Butches that the Trans vote for women's issues and equality isn't wanted. While I realize that isn't the majority of Butches, that attitude is still a huge problem for this community. If two groups are different in their issues, then one shouldn't worry about the other? This is exactly what I'm talking about... I am not willing to just say, ok we're different and have different perspectives, so I can't respect yours. This isn't about ignoring these two groups individual issues, it's about solidarity and respect - and that IS possible.

i totally agree with you! yes we have very different issues, but also some similar...still that doesnt mater...we are all brothers of the same family and maybe im juvenile in my thinking but i believe in a unison and solidarity...

until we embrace each other, differences and similarities we will never truely gain any acceptance...we pass too much judgement in my opinion...we are all people living in the same world...im a man of peace and i judge no one, and i expect that no one will judge me based on what i have or dont have as part of my physical anatomy...

the world already judges us, why do we bicker and judge each other??? just my 2 cents...

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Thinker

I would just like to go on record as saying that I don't actually believe Bulldog and I are on opposing sides of any argument. Personally, I believe we share many core values and beliefs.

I think the scope of these types of discussion is broader for me because I am a transman. I also don't believe for one second that I am right about any of this and that Bulldog is wrong......or vice versa. I think the "thing" that fires us up just happens to be different. And I think that's okay. I also think, Chazz, that lends itself to what you were saying too.

I applaud your entire post. I just wanted to throw in my two cents on the part I quoted above.

Respectfully,
Thinker

I agree with this. I don't think Thinker and I represent opposing sides, although I do think I get the short hand Chazz was trying to describe in a few words. I do think that a meeting of the minds may be possible even if people are not coming from the same perspective if there is genuine good will and the recognition that we have to fight sexism together- for our shared as well as separate best interests.

There are very real reasons why women need to be very vigilant about sexism.

I am happy to hear about transmen's lives and the challenges they face. It can be confusing at times because sometimes transmen seem to be quite offended when they are viewed differently from other men and sometimes they are asking to be seen as different.

[SelfMadeMan]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I am happy to hear about transmen's lives and the challenges they face. It can be confusing at times because sometimes transmen seem to be quite offended when they are viewed differently from other men and sometimes they are asking to be seen as different.

I totally see what you're saying. I know many Transmen who are angered by the suggestion that they are different from bio-men. Speaking only for myself, and my experience, I view MYSELF differently than other men. And it's in a good way. I certainly don't feel like less of a man than a bio man, but our life experiences are vastly different, and I come into this with real life experience being seen by society as a woman. I've experienced opposition as a woman, I've seen how men exclude a woman's point of view in a conversation, I've experienced how differently men look at me now that I am "one of the guys" - how they look me directly in the eye when speaking to me, and it makes me sick. So no, I am not the same as a bio-man. I wasn't raised being taught by society that I am better, stronger, or more capable. I have experienced both sides, and I am proud to be a feminist and I am passionate about gender equality. And THAT is where I think we have a lot of common ground.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

I totally see what you're saying. I know many Transmen who are angered by the suggestion that they are different from bio-men. Speaking only for myself, and my experience, I view MYSELF differently than other men. And it's in a good way. I certainly don't feel like less of a man than a bio man, but our life experiences are vastly different, and I come into this with real life experience being seen by society as a woman. I've experienced opposition as a woman, I've seen how men exclude a woman's point of view in a conversation, I've experienced how differently men look at me now that I am "one of the guys" - how they look me directly in the eye when speaking to me, and it makes me sick. So no, I am not the same as a bio-man. I wasn't raised being taught by society that I am better, stronger, or more capable. I have experienced both sides, and I am proud to be a feminist and I am passionate about gender equality. And THAT is where I think we have a lot of common ground.

Yes, I can totally understand this. Different is not less than.

I am a different sort of woman being a butch. It doesn't make me less than other types of women.

Yes, I think we have a lot of common ground.

Thanks Mike!