Butch & Transmen Friendship: Mutual Support

[Strappie]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

Hey, Strappie. I am curious to know this as well. Does Olivia cruises only let cissexed gay females on the cruises? Do they let any other group on? MTFs? FTMs? Cis gay males? Cis straight males? Cis straight females? (I am pretty sure the answer is yes to the last one..straight cis females can come).

I would really like to know. Not b/c I am planning on going, but b/c I would like to know.

Also, if it is typcially only gay females, did the admin of the dash site may a special request that EVERYONE on her web site be able to attend?

Let us (or at least me!) know if you make that phone call/pose that question on the site, what you find out.

Dapper,

I will call Olivia Cruise myself tomorrow.. for now I need to settle my thoughts and get some sleep. 5am comes fast at Midnight!

[Ebon]

Originally Posted by Strappie

Hey Guys,

Please take my words not always literally for I am not the best at putting words into writing like some of you so eloquently do.

I am asking this from my heart and not being an ass in anyway shape or form. I'm not so "up" on my trans knowledge so please bare with me while I come up with words that do not offend anyone. And please believe me when I say this is from my heart because one of my best buds is Post-Op (he says he thinks we were separated at birth) lol

ok so here it goes....

Over at the Dash site I started a thread pertaining to the Olivia Cruise: in regards of Trans folks not being welcome on a Olivia Cruise. I wanted to ask the question but I stopped before because my previous questions stirred up some not so happy comments from folks including the owner.

My question is this, How are they to know if some random Joe Blow who has never been through a transition get on the Cruise? For real.. I'm not trying to stir up shit trust me. Can't any male just hop on the ship? How are they to know who transitioned and who hasn't? I want all my friends gay-lesbian-trans-tg-ect... to be able to enjoy the things I enjoy not because of who I am or who they are. I want equal rights for ALL.

They would have to let "everyone" on the ship? No? How could they not, are they really going to ask me if I'm really gay? Will they ask you what you are? I don't know ... I think I should make a phone call.

Well if they have that policy wouldn't the cruise attract people that mostly felt the same way?

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by Strappie

Corkey,

Thanks for not taking my words wrong. I find it a bit absurd that they would allow Men to go on the Cruise. They might as well open it up if they do that. I guess at this point I'm frustrated with the decision they made because I do know some do not feel it would be a welcoming place for them. I've heard a couple of times, "why would I support a function that is for "women" only.

I totally understand your concern, but I understand that for this particular cruse they are allowing FTM's and Transmen on the joy ride. Personally I wouldn't go on an Olivia cruse as it isn't my cuppa, but I would go on a Princess cruse to Alaska if given the opportunity, and of course Ami would be right by my side.

[AtLast]

[QUOTE=DapperButch;129926


Is it because we've all had our share of struggles in negotiating the world, our self-identity, others expectations, etc. and we are more guarded and protective of that? Is it for fear of becoming left out? Is it competitive posturing for the attentions of femmes?

Just throwing some stuff out there....

QUOTE]



Glad you threw it out here!

I think you might have something here with being guarded and self-protective. I just don't see either butches or trans/ig (and all the various identities) having a great time within society a lot of the time when we all just want to be who we are. And in our community, there just seems to be an awful lot of stereotyping on top of the outside world.

I think it is hard to feel left out when there just doesn't seem to be much room for yourself anywhere, so, when it feels shitty here, it feels really bad!

I have thought about the posturing stuff and competition over femmes quite a bit. I don't know if this is really true, but I wonder how much all of us internalize what femmes project as being attractive in terms of who we all are. Hell, we have all read posts talking about the super-butch, etc. by some (not all) femmes. But, I sure see other posts in support of a butch like me, too.

There are femmes that will only date Transmen and there are those that will only date butches. I try not to question either even though I have had some weird things happen around dating a couple of femmes that wanted me to transition. I honestly believe that everyone is just attracted to what they are attracted to. Then, again, I know femmes that have said they didn't ever think they would be with a transguy, but are. It seems to me that it is the person they fell in love with and the gender stuff just doesn't matter.

Hummm... you know, one of my old time FtM friends once did say to me that he sometimes felt that women (he would use women, not femme as he has no identification with the B-F dynamic) just wanted to find out about a Transguy out of shear curiosity! This made him pretty suspicious and guarded. I thought this sucked because he isn't a freaking experiment!

Ut, Oh... maybe I digressed....

Anyway, Dapper, I think there is a whole big pile of things that both butches and transmen could be guarded about which then can just lead to defensiveness for self-protection. I wish this wasn't true because it is smacking us all around, really getting in the way of our friendships and working together for civil rights (if that is something you want to do).

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by Strappie

Hey Guys,

Please take my words not always literally for I am not the best at putting words into writing like some of you so eloquently do.

I am asking this from my heart and not being an ass in anyway shape or form. I'm not so "up" on my trans knowledge so please bare with me while I come up with words that do not offend anyone. And please believe me when I say this is from my heart because one of my best buds is Post-Op (he says he thinks we were separated at birth) lol

ok so here it goes....

Over at the Dash site I started a thread pertaining to the Olivia Cruise: in regards of Trans folks not being welcome on a Olivia Cruise. I wanted to ask the question but I stopped before because my previous questions stirred up some not so happy comments from folks including the owner.

My question is this, How are they to know if some random Joe Blow who has never been through a transition get on the Cruise? For real.. I'm not trying to stir up shit trust me. Can't any male just hop on the ship? How are they to know who transitioned and who hasn't? I want all my friends gay-lesbian-trans-tg-ect... to be able to enjoy the things I enjoy not because of who I am or who they are. I want equal rights for ALL.

They would have to let "everyone" on the ship? No? How could they not, are they really going to ask me if I'm really gay? Will they ask you what you are? I don't know ... I think I should make a phone call.

Here's the deal with Olivia Cruises. I know this, because I called them just last week to find out (for sure...from the horse's mouth) who's welcome.

Men (all flavors) are welcome on the cruises. They ask that you please realize this is a cruise geared towards the lesbian community, but men are welcome as long as they respect that it's geared towards lesbians.

They were extremely nice to me when I called, and really stressed the point that it's not a 'women-only' space.


Not That I Plan On Going, But...There's The Info,
Dylan

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

Hey, Strappie. I am curious to know this as well. Does Olivia cruises only let cissexed gay females on the cruises? Do they let any other group on? MTFs? FTMs? Cis gay males? Cis straight males? Cis straight females? (I am pretty sure the answer is yes to the last one..straight cis females can come).

Just peeking in...

I can answer one teeny piece of this. Olivia does allow straight cis women on the cruise. A strongly feminist (and celibate by choice) friend goes on these cruises because she prefers the time outside of the company of men.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by JustJo

Just peeking in...

I can answer one teeny piece of this. Olivia does allow straight cis women on the cruise. A strongly feminist (and celibate by choice) friend goes on these cruises because she prefers the time outside of the company of men.

It looks like from what Dylan found out via calling Olivia, that all cruises are open to any gender. I do know that they used to have special family cruises open to all. So, maybe their TOS have changed?

Never have gone on one of these, have thought about it, but, I don't know how I would deal with possibly being in a situation in which both B-F and transphobia might be more than just a little present. Humm... but I guess I am being stereotypic, here. Ugh... have to think about this.

Weird, I make no bones about my feminist lesbian identity, but have to say that I too, have had negative experience with some (not all) lesbian geared activities. LOL... I have a lesbian couple that lives across the street from me that stopped talking to me after they saw me in a tux a couple of years ago going to the Oakland B-F Bash!!

Also, prior to knowing them as they really are, a close FtM friend (actually the co-parent to my late partner's daughter) was visiting and they happened to be over. He is very open about his transitioning and these women were total assholes to him. He can take on gender-ignorance just fine, but I felt awful.

So, I know if I did go on a cruise and was in the midst of this kind of bigotry, it would not be good! The idea of spending all that cash for a leisure vacation and being in a space in which this went on, just doesn't sound good!

It isn't really about women's space with me, it's about discrimination and bigotry which unfortunately, goes both ways. Sucks!

Argh... when is this all going to stop with the entire LGBTIQ community?Every year during Pride, I honestly go through a roller-coaster of emotions.

[TenderKnight]

Well, after reading some of the posts on here, I am feeling kinda mixed, to be honest.. It's amazing how many triggers can go off while reading a thread! lol

In any case, here are some of my thoughts..

RE: Butch/trans morals and ethics when it comes to dating a friend's ex.. I take it as it comes.. If I am good friends with both, I can usually tell if it's a healthy break up that just needs time for both partners to heal, or if it is unhealthy and full of destructive behavior and hurt feelings.. In the first case, if I'm attracted to one of the partners, I will let them know, in a comfortable way, that I am interested and that I would like to date them, but I want to allow them time to heal.. Then it is up to them and we can go from there. Is it my responcibility to ask permission from the other ex partner? No.. The relationship is over. *shrugs*

In the second case, I leave it be.. It isn't healthy and I don't want to be a rebound or a way to get back at an ex.. I have been both and it hurts.

RE: Women's only space.. We got the cruise thing settled out, but when I first saw the Oblivia post by Strappie, I was thinking, "Oh god! Being stuck on a boat with a bunch of people that don't want me there? Having those "conversations" with people that don't get or don't WANT to get why I am transgender? No thanks.." It is also about giving women, (god yes, I'm using women.. female only?), females a place to feel safe and comfortable with themselves and who surround them. I *don't* belong. I will never belong in female only space. I have made my "choice" and if I expect to be respected, then I will do the same..

On a side note.. FUCKING AWESOME COMMUNICATION going on in this thread.. At Last, thank you so very much for talking TO me and not just to my post. I felt that. Thank you.

I may have more later.. Thank you all for posting and for being real.

-Tony, Asshat (not really, but it made me laugh..)

[Kosmo]

These are some random and not so random thoughts while I sit here at work and multi-task.

I have noticed that we do come to each others aid when there is a misconception or stereotype, but that it sometimes escalates into a gender war and that’s frustrating to see. Then femmes get involved and sometimes I wish they wouldn’t. I have been guilty of trying to speak for others when I shouldn’t have… just once (I think?). It’s not like I don’t appreciate the effort, but then those voices I want to hear from are drowned out in a way. Then the flirting and adoration exchanges start and I get annoyed. I would like to see more of us coming in to talk about what we can do to help each other. Between us and only us.

Are we less likely to find camaraderie because we’re so used to going it alone? You know the stereotypical gender aspects we’re ALL supposed to innately have that make up the brooding, loner, tough exterior, ‘I don’t need help or support’. I know we’re much more than that. It’s as if the chasm between butch/transman and femme is built just to feel/fit a need for the other and I think it limits our view of the common ground we do share.

To AtLastHome,
I think you were actually quoting me, but have DapperButch as the originator of this quote:

‘Is it because we've all had our share of struggles in negotiating the world, our self-identity, others expectations, etc. and we are more guarded and protective of that? Is it for fear of becoming left out? Is it competitive posturing for the attentions of femmes? Just throwing some stuff out there....’

So I’m going to respond to you. I don’t think you digress at all. I can’t imagine the difficulty or internal strife that transmen may have with sensing or knowing that someone is interested out of curiosity. I can only say it might be similar to someone who is interested in a butch out of curiosity.

I’ve never succumbed to the interests of someone like that. When I think about it, I know it would make me feel stripped of self. I would feel like an oddity and lose my attraction immediately.

On other thoughts, I’ve read about transmen getting gigged for not being somehow loyal to the cause or traitors when they feel they must leave the community. I find this contradictory when I think they have gotten back a lot less/if any loyalty for their cause. It wouldn't bother me personally if a transman or anyone wanted to leave the community to live their lives. See, I’m not that involved in the community, I don’t get involved in queer political issues, but doesn’t make me unloyal or unable to post my thoughts/opinions on such issues. Would it affect me if I had a transman as a friend, let’s say a friend before and during transition who needed to leave the community and alter or limit their interaction with me? Yes. It’s hard for me to say goodbye. I’m a sentimental person and I would miss them a lot. Could I try to be closeted for them in interactions to not inadvertently sell them out? No. It would be impossible for me to be something I am not. Just like it would be impossible for them. We’ve all worked through enough shit to get where we are today.

These thoughts may or may not resonate with anyone, but I find that if I don’t sometimes blurt stuff out that I’m pondering, I’ll never add to the conversation. Also, it takes me freakin’ forever to assemble that blurt into something coherent and then by the time I do post my thoughts, the conversation is 15 pages down the road!

I’ve had other thoughts, but I keep getting interrupted at work and I can't login from there.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Kosmo

These are some random and not so random thoughts while I sit here at work and multi-task.

I have noticed that we do come to each others aid when there is a misconception or stereotype, but that it sometimes escalates into a gender war and that’s frustrating to see. Then femmes get involved and sometimes I wish they wouldn’t. I have been guilty of trying to speak for others when I shouldn’t have… just once (I think?). It’s not like I don’t appreciate the effort, but then those voices I want to hear from are drowned out in a way. Then the flirting and adoration exchanges start and I get annoyed. I would like to see more of us coming in to talk about what we can do to help each other. Between us and only us.

Are we less likely to find camaraderie because we’re so used to going it alone? You know the stereotypical gender aspects we’re ALL supposed to innately have that make up the brooding, loner, tough exterior, ‘I don’t need help or support’. I know we’re much more than that. It’s as if the chasm between butch/transman and femme is built just to feel/fit a need for the other and I think it limits our view of the common ground we do share.

To AtLastHome,
I think you were actually quoting me, but have DapperButch as the originator of this quote:

‘Is it because we've all had our share of struggles in negotiating the world, our self-identity, others expectations, etc. and we are more guarded and protective of that? Is it for fear of becoming left out? Is it competitive posturing for the attentions of femmes? Just throwing some stuff out there....’

So I’m going to respond to you. I don’t think you digress at all. I can’t imagine the difficulty or internal strife that transmen may have with sensing or knowing that someone is interested out of curiosity. I can only say it might be similar to someone who is interested in a butch out of curiosity.

I’ve never succumbed to the interests of someone like that. When I think about it, I know it would make me feel stripped of self. I would feel like an oddity and lose my attraction immediately.

On other thoughts, I’ve read about transmen getting gigged for not being somehow loyal to the cause or traitors when they feel they must leave the community. I find this contradictory when I think they have gotten back a lot less/if any loyalty for their cause. It wouldn't bother me personally if a transman or anyone wanted to leave the community to live their lives. See, I’m not that involved in the community, I don’t get involved in queer political issues, but doesn’t make me unloyal or unable to post my thoughts/opinions on such issues. Would it affect me if I had a transman as a friend, let’s say a friend before and during transition who needed to leave the community and alter or limit their interaction with me? Yes. It’s hard for me to say goodbye. I’m a sentimental person and I would miss them a lot. Could I try to be closeted for them in interactions to not inadvertently sell them out? No. It would be impossible for me to be something I am not. Just like it would be impossible for them. We’ve all worked through enough shit to get where we are today.

These thoughts may or may not resonate with anyone, but I find that if I don’t sometimes blurt stuff out that I’m pondering, I’ll never add to the conversation. Also, it takes me freakin’ forever to assemble that blurt into something coherent and then by the time I do post my thoughts, the conversation is 15 pages down the road!

I’ve had other thoughts, but I keep getting interrupted at work and I can't login from there.

I apologize for my goof up!

You touch on some really key issues here, thanks! Will be interesting to see what responses come along.

[Kosmo]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

I apologize for my goof up!

You touch on some really key issues here, thanks! Will be interesting to see what responses come along.

No problem, ALH. Just wanted to make it clear. On the other hand, if I say something really stupid in the future, I might not want to clear it up, lol.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

I apologize for my goof up!

You touch on some really key issues here, thanks! Will be interesting to see what responses come along.

Originally Posted by Kosmo

No problem, ALH. Just wanted to make it clear. On the other hand, if I say something really stupid in the future, I might not want to clear it up, lol.

And I didn't even notice even though I read AtLast's post! lol

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

And I didn't even notice even though I read AtLast's post! lol

Oh, Dapper... and here I was thinking about senior moments! ROTFL!!

Just a side note.... for the whole thread... Wouldn't it be kewl to charter a cruise of our own?! All of our partners, who we have made our family.. kids, everybody, but just us! A floating reunion or bash.... But, I do get sea sick... hummmm... I can do it!

[TenderKnight]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

Oh, Dapper... and here I was thinking about senior moments! ROTFL!!

Just a side note.... for the whole thread... Wouldn't it be kewl to charter a cruise of our own?! All of our partners, who we have made our family.. kids, everybody, but just us! A floating reunion or bash.... But, I do get sea sick... hummmm... I can do it!

I second that!

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by TenderKnight

I second that!

LOL... until I'm leaning over the side of the ship, sick!

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

LOL... until I'm leaning over the side of the ship, sick!

We will bring you dramamine...

[Jett]

Maybe I'm mistaken but I feel like the dissonance between different masculine BFP ID's goes beyond butch codes, dating ex's etc.? I've never done that but still gotten caught in the cross fire of these "gender wars". (Yeah I realize that's bonding but needed a jump in )

Personally I think a lot of it revolves around ingrained stereotypical beliefs about women, men, female, male, lesbians, feminists and sure sometimes (but I think much less often) just plain sexism, lesphobia/homophobia, transphobia and misogyny etc.

I mentioned before that I think things here (online) get lost in translation. People read others posts through there own lens, if some of the things I mentioned above (and more) are in that persons lens when they're reading posts, I think they can read a lot between the lines that isn't there.

We are full of misinformation by the time we find these sites, "transmen transition to gain priviledge or b/c of misogyny", "lesbians hate men", "all queer females are extreme feminists", etc. etc. etc. And we get here where we should be finally equally valued and find... male female hierarchies, so here female ID'd feel undervalued and misunderstood. Male ID'd hear "I only date female ID", and to be fair this is something they face hugely more in the real world than female ID'd do. Those majority of (femme or not) lesbians who are "goo goo ga ga over butches but don't want those who think they're or look too male". That stuffs all over the internet and real life too.

And there aren't big real world communities for Transpeople and most tg or male ID butches the way there are for most female ID butches and butch lesbians. Would anyone wonder why they'd place such great value on having and finding community and desiring to feel welcome here and probably being somewhat defensive about it? I sure as hell don't.

I dunno, I think we bring a lot of the negative real world experiences in here with us, beliefs, resentments, fears and project them out onto each other...

We look for these things and where you look you'll most certainly see whether it's always there or not. Then it's the "Aha! I was right about them!"... when in reality the majority are really good peeps and we should and can be some of each others best friends and allies no matter the ID (sans natural personality conflicts).

I mean does anyone really want to win the "war"? Really actually want some particular ID to one by one blip off the site forever? I like to think none of us would really want to see that happen to anybody let alone a whole group of people.

People waste to much life on this stupid "war", I don't want anything to do with it, everything about it just tastes like shit. That's all I got to say about it.

Metro

[Andrew, Jr.]

I just responded a short time ago in a thread Medusa started about communication. And I will basically state here what I did there because it is how I feel.

I think/believe we all should celebrate each other. We should just love each other instead of tearing each other down. Life is hard enough. It is this simple.

Love,
Andrew

[Dylan]

Sooooooooo,

Do we have anything to talk about besides "The Gender War"?

I would like to know why there's a common belief that the second a butch says he's male ID'd, *some* (and usually the same) female ID'd butches think he's handed a platter of male privilege. I'm asking seriously, and I'm not being snarky. I've seen this happen since the Borders And Bridges thread on the other site, and it's definitely a recurring theme in *some* FIB's posts.


Can Anyone Tackle This?,
Dylan

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Dylan

Sooooooooo,

Do we have anything to talk about besides "The Gender War"?

I would like to know why there's a common belief that the second a butch says he's male ID'd, *some* (and usually the same) female ID'd butches think he's handed a platter of male privilege. I'm asking seriously, and I'm not being snarky. I've seen this happen since the Borders And Bridges thread on the other site, and it's definitely a recurring theme in *some* FIB's posts.


Can Anyone Tackle This?,
Dylan

Some is operative, I hope!

Maybe, this happens simply due to the fact that no matter who we are, we have been subjected to the patriarchal confines of gender all of our lives. Unfortunately, man, male just gets equated with privilege due to this. Not a good jump to take, as there are a hell of a lot of variables involved in any form of privilege.

Also, and unfortunately, the male role models many of us have had have just been examples of this privilege gone amuck in this man's world.

On the other side of this, as one having a hand in raising a male child (who is now raising two female children), I have to say that it can be as painful to see what men in general can be saddled with in terms of the entire patriarchal schema. There are many just plain human characteristics that get genderized in ways that hold us all back.

Personally, I feel it is the buss word phenomenon here that is the culprit most often (unless it's just obvious sexist terminology - and when I use the term sexist, it means toward any form of gender). Also, the plain truth is that there have been times when I have been attacked for identifying as female. And the inverse is true for male identification. So, we all will most likely get pissed when we have this happen.

However, the problem is when we all generalize the deeds of an individual to every identification represented here. Hey, I admit, that sometimes it is hard for me to see past what has happened to me via this privilege in life, especially sexual assault and receiving less pay for the same work.

I have to bring up the fact that many male-identified or Transmen here do slap misogynist statements down as much as any female-identified butch here. I’m thinking it might be a good idea for everyone to take a look at what a member’s identification is to the left of the screen when reading posts.

But, in terms of how we interact as friends in our lives or support gender as what we now know (some of us are old), fluid and just not your mother's or father's gender? And, online, how do we all deal with this... that is my original question. What effect does this have on us as part of this entire community?


But, 'cept.... talk about all of this.... I'm too arthritic to tackle much these days...