"Butch" and "Femme" - Truly Antiquated Terms or More Marginalization?

[Arwen]

Originally Posted by Cyclopea

Yes, my point was that Lesbian is synonymous with female homosexual. Therefore, female homosexual is synonymous with lesbian.
That is not "my" judgement. That is the english language as understood by english speaking people. Homo=one (gender). Women who are affectationally and sexually oriented to other women is the definition of female homosexual/lesbian. (Can't believe you're making me repeat this! lol).

Several posters seemed to have issue with homosexual/lesbian women having terms that describe their orientation. They went to great length to justify why they are not lesbians (which no one asked).

Just because lesbian is synonymous with female homosexual shouldn't take away from other queers, but apparently people felt it was somehow unfair that the terms lesbian and female homosexual are synonymous and describe females who are affectationally and sexually oriented to other women.
I'm not sure why. Maybe they think lesbianism/female homosexuality shoud not be defined by women loving women?

To be clear, I did not make you repeat that. You chose to do repeat that.

Pig is synonymous with swine and also with police officer (forgive me all my police officer friends.) My point is that the word "pig" has more than one definition (and very varied ones at that.) I'm sure we could both list a slew of words with similar multi-tasking uses.

I see that this discussion has simply become more hammering of the same nail. I do not understand the point you are trying to make. I am sorry. Perhaps it is simply that I am over-tired.

I will remove myself from this discussion for now and come back to it perhaps when I am refreshed.

At this point, it still feels to me like you are saying that a female homosexual can only be a lesbian. I will vehemently disagree with those limiting parameters. Good night.

[WILDCAT]

I've had to stop reading this two pages back!

I'm a proud queer butch lesbian!

This is fucking hurtful that folks are going nuts about being referred to as a queer/femme/butch lesbian, etc... in such a very negative, hateful - if not digusting way.

IF you aren't a queer lesbian butch or femme lesbian... Good. Please don't hate those who are and act like you're being referred to as such - is akin to the fucking scum of the earth. What the hell!?

IF you are a queer lesbian, butch or femme - and assume all folks are (not straight and trangendered here - unless someone ID's this way of their own choice) please consider that all folks do NOT refer to themselves this way. And they do not care for it, no matter what the reasons. That needs to be respected too. We argue over this continually. I am sick and tired of it.
___

OTHERWISE, forget that this is a butch/femme site. That the owners are trying to be inclusive - and I feel like I'm being spit on here. And I can see how the ones who KNOW folks here truly are sticking up for each other, despite what THEIR damn ID even is! I am truly disgusted right now.

Merry fucking Christmas and to all and to all a good night. I'll be back in a few days to see how WONDERFUL all of our holidays were - after shit like this. If I am able.

SINCERELY,
WILDCAT

*And report my ass away, fine... Not too many folks should be feeling too goddamn proud right now, IM HUMBLE OPINION. We got set up here, I thought that... I said as much - but, now with some of these responses - no, I was not going to keep my mouth shut here! (And PLEASE, try and say now: I did not "try" and get through this. Give me a fucking break!)

**And "Victoria" (Is that right?) Good job. Happy holidays.

***Sorry Jack and Medusa. (And to the mods.)

[WILDCAT]

I don't "truly" mean, literally - "merry F'n X-Mas to ALL", I really mean I am burnt the hell out on this same tired old stuff.

Sorry to those of you who do NOT wear these shoes...

Please forgive me for that. That is my pain talking.

WILDCAT

[BullDog]

Anyone who doesn't want to id as a lesbian- fine and dandy. But some of these so-called definitions of lesbians and lesbian sex coming from non-identified lesbians are truly ridiculous and limited. Lesbians and our language have "evolved" just as much as the rest of the "advanced cutting edge gender identities"- queer/genderqueer etc.

I am real tired of the constant messages that lesbian and woman are somehow antiquated terms that others have evolved from.

I am real tired of how female, woman, lesbian are constantly being ridiculed and minimized in butch femme and queer communities- particularly when attached to butch

This post was written by a Proud Stone Butch Lesbian- who has female oriented sex because I am female and my intimate partners are female (I'm a homosexual, I'm queer, I'm lesbian), and yes I am stone too.

p.s. Cyclopea I saw absolutely nothing hostile in your tone. I thought you were being very matter of fact. I believe what some are saying is that female homosexual has more than one meaning.

[turasultana]

Maybe this will make sense if not... i gave it a go.

Gemme was saying (paraphrasing) that all homosexuals aren't lesbians, which is true even in the broadest sense since men can be homosexuals and not lesbians.

Cyclopea is saying all female homosexuals are lesbians..

But how about if Gemme (or anyone, not trying to put words in her mouth) defines herself as Femme rather than "female". Can we then say:
Femme homosexuals are not all lesbians. (may or may not be).

Would that make sense?

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I am real tired of the constant messages that lesbian and woman are somehow antiquated terms that others have evolved from.

I am real tired of how female, woman, lesbian are constantly being ridiculed and minimized in butch femme and queer communities- particularly when attached to butch

Bulldog:

I understand and share your frustration and weariness. I, too, am tired of being told that others identity counts, is sacred, is inherently deserving of respect but that my identity is not worth the paper my birth certificate was written on. If I were a butch who was a transman, or preferred to be called 'he' or rejected the word lesbian then I would be hoisted upon many shoulders and carried through the virtual town square with shouts of Huzzah! Huzzah! However, because I prefer (in fact insist) that I be called 'she' and embrace the word lesbian, my identity, my commitment to equality, all manner of imprecations can be drawn about my motives with absolute and utter impunity.

To me, it is important for words to have meaning and for special pleading to be kept to a minimum. As a black woman, I know--intimately, from the very moments that I was aware that there was a society outside of my family--that in a world where special pleading is allowed to run rampant, eventually, inevitably, I and my people will lose. How so? "All men are created equal (except blacks)". That was the reigning ideology for first 190 years of America's existence as a nation-state. Racism is a case of special pleading "for everyone excepting them". Even when it looks like special pleading might make me a winner by working in my favor, it doesn't. Affirmative action being a particular case. I have heard people say behind my back(and to my face) that I was nothing more than an affirmative action hire. So even a system that allegedly is supposed to benefit me works against me because rules are not being applied equally.

If we can define words to mean whatever the hell we want them to mean, in the moment that it is convenient for us to do so, as if this were through the looking glass, then what is to stop a heterosexual, chromosonal (XY) male from saying "I identify as a lesbian and therefore, I get to come into lesbian spaces and talk about lesbians as an authority because I am a lesbian". If lesbian has no necessary connection to either being woman (whatever your chromosomes are--to me a transwoman is a woman) or homosexual then what is a lesbian? It appears that, in fact, what is being said is that lesbian has neither a proximate or sufficient relationship to either the words female (or woman) or homosexual.

Lastly, it makes me wonder--as I sometimes wonder about the field of biology--what our sins as lesbians (or butches) were that our identities are not worthy of respect. And they are consistently treated as if they are not. It is not all in our heads. Too many of us, from too many disparate backgrounds, all seem to keep coming to this same place of "why is it okay for the most horrible things to be said about butches (or lesbians) but it is a capital crime to say anything, including the idea that lesbian identity is worthy of some respect, that might be taken as diminishing by someone of a different identity". I have tried, to the best of my ability, to step back from this and try to work off the assumption that it is all in my head. I then run little thought experiments based upon my own observations of how my species behaves and end up coming back to 'this doesn't really quite work'. I wish I knew what my sins were, as a butch, female-identified, lesbian so that if they are ongoing sins I could at least change my behavior and put myself, once again, in the circle of those who are considered worthy of respect. If my sins are wholly in the past, I would like to know what they were.

Yet no one will tell us the nature of our crimes, the charges are not read to us and we are not even allowed to challenge our accusers or cross-examine our prosecutors. Any attempts to do so are immediately dismissed.

It seems that all one has to do is say "FOR ME" and one is given a free pass to say anything one wishes about lesbians or butches and call us children of some lesser and unworthy god.

Cheers
Aj

[Apocalipstic]

It is tiring and sad to over and over again hearing how "Lesbian" is a bad word and that "Lesbian" sex is disgusting.

I am a Lesbian, I have a Lesbian G/F. I am Femme, She is Butch.

I also wonder why that is so terrible, and why we can't ID as we do without it constantly being brought into question.

Love all of you, but please try to be respectful of people who actually are Lesbians and proud of it!



Thread after thread, year after year.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

Bulldog:

I understand and share your frustration and weariness. I, too, am tired of being told that others identity counts, is sacred, is inherently deserving of respect but that my identity is not worth the paper my birth certificate was written on. If I were a butch who was a transman, or preferred to be called 'he' or rejected the word lesbian then I would be hoisted upon many shoulders and carried through the virtual town square with shouts of Huzzah! Huzzah! However, because I prefer (in fact insist) that I be called 'she' and embrace the word lesbian, my identity, my commitment to equality, all manner of imprecations can be drawn about my motives with absolute and utter impunity.

To me, it is important for words to have meaning and for special pleading to be kept to a minimum. As a black woman, I know--intimately, from the very moments that I was aware that there was a society outside of my family--that in a world where special pleading is allowed to run rampant, eventually, inevitably, I and my people will lose. How so? "All men are created equal (except blacks)". That was the reigning ideology for first 190 years of America's existence as a nation-state. Racism is a case of special pleading "for everyone excepting them". Even when it looks like special pleading might make me a winner by working in my favor, it doesn't. Affirmative action being a particular case. I have heard people say behind my back(and to my face) that I was nothing more than an affirmative action hire. So even a system that allegedly is supposed to benefit me works against me because rules are not being applied equally.

If we can define words to mean whatever the hell we want them to mean, in the moment that it is convenient for us to do so, as if this were through the looking glass, then what is to stop a heterosexual, chromosonal (XY) male from saying "I identify as a lesbian and therefore, I get to come into lesbian spaces and talk about lesbians as an authority because I am a lesbian". If lesbian has no necessary connection to either being woman (whatever your chromosomes are--to me a transwoman is a woman) or homosexual then what is a lesbian? It appears that, in fact, what is being said is that lesbian has neither a proximate or sufficient relationship to either the words female (or woman) or homosexual.

Lastly, it makes me wonder--as I sometimes wonder about the field of biology--what our sins as lesbians (or butches) were that our identities are not worthy of respect. And they are consistently treated as if they are not. It is not all in our heads. Too many of us, from too many disparate backgrounds, all seem to keep coming to this same place of "why is it okay for the most horrible things to be said about butches (or lesbians) but it is a capital crime to say anything, including the idea that lesbian identity is worthy of some respect, that might be taken as diminishing by someone of a different identity". I have tried, to the best of my ability, to step back from this and try to work off the assumption that it is all in my head. I then run little thought experiments based upon my own observations of how my species behaves and end up coming back to 'this doesn't really quite work'. I wish I knew what my sins were, as a butch, female-identified, lesbian so that if they are ongoing sins I could at least change my behavior and put myself, once again, in the circle of those who are considered worthy of respect. If my sins are wholly in the past, I would like to know what they were.

Yet no one will tell us the nature of our crimes, the charges are not read to us and we are not even allowed to challenge our accusers or cross-examine our prosecutors. Any attempts to do so are immediately dismissed.

It seems that all one has to do is say "FOR ME" and one is given a free pass to say anything one wishes about lesbians or butches and call us children of some lesser and unworthy god.

Cheers
Aj

Thank you for this post Aj. The first paragraph in particular rings so true for me. Sometimes I feel I am either so out of touch or am losing my mind. Truly the lack of respect is appalling to me.

[hippieflowergirl]

well hi.

sorry it took me so long to get back into the swing of the discussion. i'm not avoiding. some last minute research kept me busy until now.

since i seem to be the trouble-starter this week i'd like to begin with an apology to anyone i've offended with my opinions and my lack of understanding, whether real or perceived.

for my real lack of understanding, i beg patience. i am not unwilling to be wrong, to admit wrongness, to be taught, to learn and to grow. i welcome the opportunity.

for my perceived lack of understanding, i beg tolerance. if i am not being clear it is because i do not know i am being unclear, not because i am obtuse or because i simply refuse to be clear. we use language differently, even if the language is the same one. we use it differently because we are different from one another, even if we are all human. we have different filters, different experiences, different minds and philosophies, and different abilities with regard to critical thinking. i will be the first to admit that i have noticed some cognitive challenges in the last year, mostly having to do with short term memory and with some long term recall. neither of those things hamper my feeling, nor do they hamper my desire to participate positively in conversation, even difficult conversation, and to listen and learn and contribute and be heard.

i'd like to clear up any misunderstanding my posts may have created for anyone by saying the following:

1) i have absolutely no issue with the word "lesbian". i have no issue with any word of which i can think. because language and semiotics and marginalization make up the bulk of my work, i find it difficult to take offense with words, symbolism or the life experiences of others, period.

2) i do not identify my self, my life, my core, my being or my experiences as being a "lesbian" self, life, core, being or experiences. if others do, then they do. i dont have any feelings about the identifying words of others except to acknowledge and respect them and to use those words as required by the people who adopt them. i feel nothing but respect for the experiences of others. i have no need or desire (overt or hidden) to feel otherwise.

3) i have no issue with a dictionary definition of any word. limitations in print demand that many definitions be curtailed. dictionaries change every year. words are added and eliminated. there are dictionaries for "archaic" language and urban dictionaries and culturally relevant dictionaries and so on ad nauseum. none of them are "wrong" or "right" so much as they just "are". they account for the averaging of a particular language as well as a collective human understanding of concepts and ideas. they do not, however, encompass all that "is". there exists too much of everything for that.

4) if one person feels complete and satisfied with the definition of the word "Dog" as one that encompasses all domestic canines, i am not offended. if another person feels the same definition is limiting of specifics and variation and nuances and so on, i am not offended. if someone does not feel the word "Dog" encompasses all that some dogs are, i am not offended. i understand that my analogy is silly...but it serves my point somewhat. if a person says X is the word i use to identify myself with then i too refer to them as X. if someone says i do not use the word X...i use the word Y...then i also use the word Y to refer to them. my opinion and my language do not matter. Y is the word i use, out of respect primarily. my understanding expands to encompass the word Y as something new in my paradigm. that is evolution on the individual level. many individuals, all expanding their paradigm, leads to evolution on a more global level. it is critical thinking and philosophical growth at its best.

5) i am neither a "lesbian" by the dictionary definition nor by a personal one. i do not partner with people who identify themselves as women. i partner with transguys and/or male ID'd butches. the words i use are not "gay", "lesbian", or "homosexual" because i do not feel they are right for me. i do not have a single solitary issue with any of those words or anyone who uses them to define themselves. they are simply not my words. i do not speak for anyone except myself unless i am relating the stories and experiences i've been privy to and am free to relate and then, i am not doing so to represent anyone, i am simply relating a story. i do not speak FOR anyone except myself. any belief to the contrary is mistaken.

6) if someone tells me they are X...because they've been told they are X or the dictionary defines them as X...i worry, but i accept their decision. if the same person tells me they are X...because they feel X and they know they are X then i accept them as X and do not worry. i expect the same in return. as an example, if a person tells me they are a butch, female identified lesbian then i go forward using those words for that friend. if someone tells me they are a male identified butch, a genderqueer person, a lesbian, a transguy, a man, intersexed or that they use specific pronouns (hy, hir, ze, she, he and so on) i assimilate those words for that friend. it is not confusing to me and it does not bother me. i wouldnt presume to be bothered by the words anyone else uses for themselves.

7) i expect to be treated with the same consideration i extend. when i am not, i remove myself from the situation. if i am considered unacceptable it does not bother me. i am comfortable being unacceptable. moreso than i would be conforming to an identity that is not mine.

i am a queer transsensual femme. as with all people, my understanding of myself continues to evolve as my mind evolves in its role as part of cultural and global evolution. when someone calls me a lesbian i am going to engage in conversation with them and give them different words for me. i am going to do that because i respect myself and because i respect them enough to share myself with them on a personal level. i grew up in a world where lesbian was the ONLY word to use. as the world and my understanding changed i realized i was using a word that did not belong to me. it is not only out of respect for myself that i now use different words, but because i see some of the nuances of words that makes me feel as though i am being moe respectful of others when i DONT use the word for myself. that may be an odd-Kathlene-only phenomenon, but it is how i feel nonetheless.

words dont offend me. they are tools. mistakes dont offend me. they are also tools. intent and intention are the things that can carry the weight of offense in my world. regardless of my feelings, in the moment or long term, i also choose to believe that things are not solely as i see them...because it is impossible for me to see everything. i will be honest about my own feelings. that's the point of this long-winded and slightly pedantic post. in the same long breath, i refuse to presume that anyone here has either intent or intention to harm/offend/marginalize me.

thanx for playing.




~ ~ ~ ~

[dreadgeek]

As another trouble-maker on this thread, I wanted to explain why I think that the meanings of words matter. Now, because I'm going to use examples using race I want to make it absolutely clear that I do not think anyone on this thread is racist, has said anything racist, or would ever say anything racist. It is just that the examples I have at hand use race.

If words evolve and have no flexible meaning then it would require me to take a face value the following statement: "I'm not a racist. Some of my best friend's are black. I just don't know what you people are calling yourself this decade so I just use the n-word." Or, one my favorites..."I'm not a racist. I just think that there's the 'good blacks', like you, and the n-word blacks, like the rest of them". Now, does the disclaimer "I'm not a racist" mean that the person is not expressing racist sentiment? Does the word racist have a meaning that is commonly agreed upon and, more or less, fixed or is it fluid such that someone could make statements like the two above (both of which I have heard, in some variation, multiple times in my 42 years) and by merely invoking the phrase "I'm not a racist..." means that whatever racist might mean, it cannot mean them.

I live by the idea that racist (like other words) have a more-or-less fixed meaning and that merely saying "I'm not a racist but..." does not confer some magical, water-to-wine fairy dust on the words that immediately follow such that no matter how racist they might SOUND they are not, actually, racist because the person has just proclaimed that they are not racist.

I use this as an example and I'll admit it is an extreme, in your face, example because I want to make it clear WHY I think that language matters in the way that I do.

I am perfectly willing to admit that my view may be hopelessly antiquarian and, if I dare say so, 20th century. It probably is. I am a product of my time.

Cheers
Aj

Originally Posted by hippieflowergirl

well hi.

sorry it took me so long to get back into the swing of the discussion. i'm not avoiding. some last minute research kept me busy until now.

since i seem to be the trouble-starter this week i'd like to begin with an apology to anyone i've offended with my opinions and my lack of understanding, whether real or perceived.

for my real lack of understanding, i beg patience. i am not unwilling to be wrong, to admit wrongness, to be taught, to learn and to grow. i welcome the opportunity.

for my perceived lack of understanding, i beg tolerance. if i am not being clear it is because i do not know i am being unclear, not because i am obtuse or because i simply refuse to be clear. we use language differently, even if the language is the same one. we use it differently because we are different from one another, even if we are all human. we have different filters, different experiences, different minds and philosophies, and different abilities with regard to critical thinking. i will be the first to admit that i have noticed some cognitive challenges in the last year, mostly having to do with short term memory and with some long term recall. neither of those things hamper my feeling, nor do they hamper my desire to participate positively in conversation, even difficult conversation, and to listen and learn and contribute and be heard.

i'd like to clear up any misunderstanding my posts may have created for anyone by saying the following:

1) i have absolutely no issue with the word "lesbian". i have no issue with any word of which i can think. because language and semiotics and marginalization make up the bulk of my work, i find it difficult to take offense with words, symbolism or the life experiences of others, period.

2) i do not identify my self, my life, my core, my being or my experiences as being a "lesbian" self, life, core, being or experiences. if others do, then they do. i dont have any feelings about the identifying words of others except to acknowledge and respect them and to use those words as required by the people who adopt them. i feel nothing but respect for the experiences of others. i have no need or desire (overt or hidden) to feel otherwise.

3) i have no issue with a dictionary definition of any word. limitations in print demand that many definitions be curtailed. dictionaries change every year. words are added and eliminated. there are dictionaries for "archaic" language and urban dictionaries and culturally relevant dictionaries and so on ad nauseum. none of them are "wrong" or "right" so much as they just "are". they account for the averaging of a particular language as well as a collective human understanding of concepts and ideas. they do not, however, encompass all that "is". there exists too much of everything for that.

4) if one person feels complete and satisfied with the definition of the word "Dog" as one that encompasses all domestic canines, i am not offended. if another person feels the same definition is limiting of specifics and variation and nuances and so on, i am not offended. if someone does not feel the word "Dog" encompasses all that some dogs are, i am not offended. i understand that my analogy is silly...but it serves my point somewhat. if a person says X is the word i use to identify myself with then i too refer to them as X. if someone says i do not use the word X...i use the word Y...then i also use the word Y to refer to them. my opinion and my language do not matter. Y is the word i use, out of respect primarily. my understanding expands to encompass the word Y as something new in my paradigm. that is evolution on the individual level. many individuals, all expanding their paradigm, leads to evolution on a more global level. it is critical thinking and philosophical growth at its best.

5) i am neither a "lesbian" by the dictionary definition nor by a personal one. i do not partner with people who identify themselves as women. i partner with transguys and/or male ID'd butches. the words i use are not "gay", "lesbian", or "homosexual" because i do not feel they are right for me. i do not have a single solitary issue with any of those words or anyone who uses them to define themselves. they are simply not my words. i do not speak for anyone except myself unless i am relating the stories and experiences i've been privy to and am free to relate and then, i am not doing so to represent anyone, i am simply relating a story. i do not speak FOR anyone except myself. any belief to the contrary is mistaken.

6) if someone tells me they are X...because they've been told they are X or the dictionary defines them as X...i worry, but i accept their decision. if the same person tells me they are X...because they feel X and they know they are X then i accept them as X and do not worry. i expect the same in return. as an example, if a person tells me they are a butch, female identified lesbian then i go forward using those words for that friend. if someone tells me they are a male identified butch, a genderqueer person, a lesbian, a transguy, a man, intersexed or that they use specific pronouns (hy, hir, ze, she, he and so on) i assimilate those words for that friend. it is not confusing to me and it does not bother me. i wouldnt presume to be bothered by the words anyone else uses for themselves.

7) i expect to be treated with the same consideration i extend. when i am not, i remove myself from the situation. if i am considered unacceptable it does not bother me. i am comfortable being unacceptable. moreso than i would be conforming to an identity that is not mine.

i am a queer transsensual femme. as with all people, my understanding of myself continues to evolve as my mind evolves in its role as part of cultural and global evolution. when someone calls me a lesbian i am going to engage in conversation with them and give them different words for me. i am going to do that because i respect myself and because i respect them enough to share myself with them on a personal level. i grew up in a world where lesbian was the ONLY word to use. as the world and my understanding changed i realized i was using a word that did not belong to me. it is not only out of respect for myself that i now use different words, but because i see some of the nuances of words that makes me feel as though i am being moe respectful of others when i DONT use the word for myself. that may be an odd-Kathlene-only phenomenon, but it is how i feel nonetheless.

words dont offend me. they are tools. mistakes dont offend me. they are also tools. intent and intention are the things that can carry the weight of offense in my world. regardless of my feelings, in the moment or long term, i also choose to believe that things are not solely as i see them...because it is impossible for me to see everything. i will be honest about my own feelings. that's the point of this long-winded and slightly pedantic post. in the same long breath, i refuse to presume that anyone here has either intent or intention to harm/offend/marginalize me.

thanx for playing.




~ ~ ~ ~

[hippieflowergirl]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Anyone who doesn't want to id as a lesbian- fine and dandy. But some of these so-called definitions of lesbians and lesbian sex coming from non-identified lesbians are truly ridiculous and limited. Lesbians and our language have "evolved" just as much as the rest of the "advanced cutting edge gender identities"- queer/genderqueer etc.

I am real tired of the constant messages that lesbian and woman are somehow antiquated terms that others have evolved from.

I am real tired of how female, woman, lesbian are constantly being ridiculed and minimized in butch femme and queer communities- particularly when attached to butch

This post was written by a Proud Stone Butch Lesbian- who has female oriented sex because I am female and my intimate partners are female (I'm a homosexual, I'm queer, I'm lesbian), and yes I am stone too.

p.s. Cyclopea I saw absolutely nothing hostile in your tone. I thought you were being very matter of fact. I believe what some are saying is that female homosexual has more than one meaning.

hi Bulldog,

i wanted to take time to comment on your very honest and feeling post because i am the trouble maker in this conversation.

thank you for putting words to your feelings. i appreciate hearing them very sincerely.

i do not find it necessary, satisfying, relevant, desirable or appropriate to "ridicule" or "minimize" anyone...not women, not lesbians, not butches, not femmes, not transpersons, not genderqueers, not anyone. even Hitler gets 1 point on the scoreboard from me (he was a good artist).

i do not think the terms lesbian and woman are antiquated. i do not think they are irrelevant. if i have not made myself clear, i apologize. i see nothing wrong with any word i can think of. i wouldnt presume to find language offensive. i find it limiting at times, and i like watching its expansion, but i do not think it is wrong or right or any of those qualifying words. language just is.

i will make my point with something you said that proves the ways in which people using the same language can hear or understand 2 vastly different things. you said:

p.s. Cyclopea I saw absolutely nothing hostile in your tone. I thought you were being very matter of fact. I believe what some are saying is that female homosexual has more than one meaning.

i thought that Cyclopea was saying exactly the opposite.

thank you again for your honesty.