Male ID butch vs. FTM??

[Chazz]

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

Agreed PJ. I don't know when it became a pissing contest, but it's destroying our community. I hear, all too often, that FTMs are recruiting from the Butch community, that we're just Butches that caved to societal pressure, etc etc. I also hear, and have been guilty of thinking in the past myself, that male IDd Butches are just pre-transition FTMs, and that to be Butch, you must be female IDd. I am very ashamed for ever thinking that, and I admit, it was due in large part to my own anger at the transphobia going on in the community. It's all such BS. Each and every one of us have the right to live our own truth, and be respected for who we are as individuals.

I don't see "a pissing contest". I see genuine differences in perspective. This is real.

Nor do I see SelfMadeMan as having had beliefs that are uncommon to this community. I simply see SelfMadeMan admitting to them which is, I think, good. It's a begin point.

Just because a conversation gets heated and/or messy doesn't mean it isn't necessary or productive. The fact that conversations such as this have been stifled within the LGBTQ community IS, I believe, a source of much of the divisiveness.

Coming into a discussion like this with the expectation that there can be a meeting of the minds is unrealistic. There is history and cultural (writ large) factors that must be parsed before that can happen, if at all. This too is for the good.

What would the world be like if we all of a single mind? It wouldn't be perfection, it would be us ceding our autonomy.

We are all in transition in the truest sense of the term. Identity is, after all, an ongoing evolutionary process. I am not the dyke now that I was a 20, 30, or 40. A sincere thank you to the Universe for that.

There are two, separate and distinct ontological "arguments" going on in this discussion. For the sake of brevity let's say, Thinker represents one, Bulldog the other. In the end, a complete meeting of the minds may not be possible. Certain lived experiences under patriarchy may preclude that possibility. So be it ! What's the alternative? Catastrophizing over the lack of perfect community?

Would it really be so terrible if there really are places where we diverge in our experiences and belief systems? The fact is we do. It isn't any body's job to make another feel good with her/himself. That tenet too often gets lost in the mix.

“Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.” ~ Jalal ad-Din Rumi