Male ID butch vs. FTM??

[SelfMadeMan]

I don't see "a pissing contest". I see genuine differences in perspective. This is real.

My use of the term "pissing contest" was referencing the drama that, at times, goes down when members of the two groups attempt to have a discussion about the issues between them. Of course there are genuine differences, the two groups are different, yet under the same umbrella. The pissing contest comes when one group doesn't feel that the other belongs under that umbrella, being the greater GLBT community. I know as well as anyone how real this issue is, I live it every day, as do the rest of BOTH our communities. Perhaps I come into this discussion with rose colored glasses, but I see NO reason there can't be mutual respect between the Butch and Trans communities. In order to respect one another and stop attacking one another, doesn't mean each individual group must abandon their own issues and struggles. It is a fact that the rift between Butches and Transmen is affecting our community as a whole. It isn't catastrophizing, it is real. I've been told by Butches that the Trans vote for women's issues and equality isn't wanted. While I realize that isn't the majority of Butches, that attitude is still a huge problem for this community. If two groups are different in their issues, then one shouldn't worry about the other? This is exactly what I'm talking about... I am not willing to just say, ok we're different and have different perspectives, so I can't respect yours. This isn't about ignoring these two groups individual issues, it's about solidarity and respect - and that IS possible.

[justpjhere]

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

I don't see "a pissing contest". I see genuine differences in perspective. This is real.

My use of the term "pissing contest" was referencing the drama that, at times, goes down when members of the two groups attempt to have a discussion about the issues between them. Of course there are genuine differences, the two groups are different, yet under the same umbrella. The pissing contest comes when one group doesn't feel that the other belongs under that umbrella, being the greater GLBT community. I know as well as anyone how real this issue is, I live it every day, as do the rest of BOTH our communities. Perhaps I come into this discussion with rose colored glasses, but I see NO reason there can't be mutual respect between the Butch and Trans communities. In order to respect one another and stop attacking one another, doesn't mean each individual group must abandon their own issues and struggles. It is a fact that the rift between Butches and Transmen is affecting our community as a whole. It isn't catastrophizing, it is real. I've been told by Butches that the Trans vote for women's issues and equality isn't wanted. While I realize that isn't the majority of Butches, that attitude is still a huge problem for this community. If two groups are different in their issues, then one shouldn't worry about the other? This is exactly what I'm talking about... I am not willing to just say, ok we're different and have different perspectives, so I can't respect yours. This isn't about ignoring these two groups individual issues, it's about solidarity and respect - and that IS possible.

i totally agree with you! yes we have very different issues, but also some similar...still that doesnt mater...we are all brothers of the same family and maybe im juvenile in my thinking but i believe in a unison and solidarity...

until we embrace each other, differences and similarities we will never truely gain any acceptance...we pass too much judgement in my opinion...we are all people living in the same world...im a man of peace and i judge no one, and i expect that no one will judge me based on what i have or dont have as part of my physical anatomy...

the world already judges us, why do we bicker and judge each other??? just my 2 cents...

[Chazz]

Thank you for the exchange, SelfMadeMan.

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

My use of the term "pissing contest" was referencing the drama that, at times, goes down when members of the two groups attempt to have a discussion about the issues between them.

Yes, I understood that.

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

Of course there are genuine differences, the two groups are different, yet under the same umbrella. The pissing contest comes when one group doesn't feel that the other belongs under that umbrella, being the greater GLBT community.

Yes, there are different groups under the umbrella. One group self-defines primarily on the bases of sexual orientation. Another on the bases of gender. Some lesbians see gender as fluid others as an artificial construct. And so on.... I am aware of the issues.

The reality is there are a number of smaller umbrellas under the LGBTQ umbrella. This is not an occasion for "pissing contests"; it's a situation that calls for mutual accommodation where and when possible. When that is not possible, as is sometimes the case, respectful disengagement is an alternative.

Would that the expectation be: We meet where and when we can, so that the burden of unanimity be lifted from all our shoulders.

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

I know as well as anyone how real this issue is, I live it every day, as do the rest of BOTH our communities.

Yes, most of us do "live it every day".

Implied in your phrase: "....BOTH our communities", is an acknowledgment that people are differently located. It's all most of us can can do to navigate our own personal landscapes, let alone someone else's.

With few exceptions, I don't expect that my issues need be any one else's issues, including, people standing under my little umbrella.

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

Perhaps I come into this discussion with rose colored glasses, but I see NO reason there can't be mutual respect between the Butch and Trans communities. In order to respect one another and stop attacking one another, doesn't mean each individual group must abandon their own issues and struggles.

To the extent that there is mutual disrespect, I don't think it necessarily has to do with the expectation that one abandon her/his "issues and struggles", except when it does. I think it has to do with not respecting other peoples' opinions. Which is not to say that all opinions are equally respectable. A moral relativist, I'm not.

However, I do think that there has sometimes been a prioritizing of concerns within the LGBTQ community that doesn't necessarily encompass everybody's "issues and struggles". Take the EDNA controversy for instance.

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

It is a fact that the rift between Butches and Transmen is affecting our community as a whole. It isn't catastrophizing, it is real.

Catastrophizing is real.

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

I've been told by Butches that the Trans vote for women's issues and equality isn't wanted.

My neighbor, Dick, is a dyed in the wool homophobe. I appreciate his voting in agreement with me, nevertheless.

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

While I realize that isn't the majority of Butches, that attitude is still a huge problem for this community. If two groups are different in their issues, then one shouldn't worry about the other? This is exactly what I'm talking about...

I understand your frustration, SelfMadeMan. However, there are places where agendas/perspectives do diverge and conflict. Ignoring, glossing over those areas may serve one, but not both, constituencies. Sometimes agreeing to disagree IS the only respectful route.

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

I am not willing to just say, ok we're different and have different perspectives, so I can't respect yours. This isn't about ignoring these two groups individual issues, it's about solidarity and respect - and that IS possible.

Solidarity in all things is not always possible. The expectation of solidarity can foster enmity.

Respect is earned, provisional, contingent. Beyond respecting my fundamental human rights, you are under no obligation to respect, or agree, with me. If I choose to feel disrespected, it's because you're triggering something in me.

[BullDog]

No DomnNC, I don't think any of those things you are charging women with and don't know of any that do.

I am happy there are people like Mike to talk to who don't get angry and defensive when the topic of male privilege comes up and who treat me with respect and listen and share their own thoughts and experiences. Those are the types of people that I can relate to and give me hope that common ground can be reached.

[DomnNC]

I didn't charge women with anything Bulldog, I do believe I said ALL or ya'll which encompasses ALL quite a bit. I'm not angry and defensive, I stated my opinion just as you do yours. The only thing I stated was the constant derailing of threads here with charges of male privilege, which happens to be the truth for the most part. I've yet to run across a topic in the Trans zone (admittedly I haven't looked at every single one) where someone runs in and starts derailing the thread with male privilege. But thanks for listening and respecting my viewpoint as well, perhaps you should reread and "listen" this time. This thread started out with someone merely asking the difference between male-identified butchs vs trans, look where it is now.

[SelfMadeMan]

Originally Posted by Chazz

I understand your frustration, SelfMadeMan. However, there are places where agendas/perspectives do diverge and conflict. Ignoring, glossing over those areas may serve one, but not both, constituencies. Sometimes agreeing to disagree IS the only respectful route.

Solidarity in all things is not always possible. The expectation of solidarity can foster enmity.
.

Thank you for your response... I really do appreciate your contribution to this conversation. Perhaps this is one of those times we respectfully have to agree to disagree on certain aspects of this issue. You see, I don't think asking for members of the GLBT community to stop attacking one another, even when they aren't on the same page, is glossing over anything, and I do think solidarity in this community is possible, especially when fighting for equality and freedom from oppression.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one..." - John Lennon

[DomnNC]

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

Thank you for your response... I really do appreciate your contribution to this conversation. Perhaps this is one of those times we respectfully have to agree to disagree on certain aspects of this issue. You see, I don't think asking for members of the GLBT community to stop attacking one another, even when they aren't on the same page, is glossing over anything, and I do think solidarity in this community is possible, especially when fighting for equality and freedom from oppression.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one..." - John Lennon

I agree with you 100% on this. It's time for the bickering to end, we're ALL in the same boat of discrimination, harrassment, and judgemental attitudes and we ALL want the same thing and that is equality and protection under the law.

[Chazz]

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

Thank you for your response... I really do appreciate your contribution to this conversation. Perhaps this is one of those times we respectfully have to agree to disagree on certain aspects of this issue. You see, I don't think asking for members of the GLBT community to stop attacking one another, even when they aren't on the same page, is glossing over anything, and I do think solidarity in this community is possible, especially when fighting for equality and freedom from oppression.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one..." - John Lennon

Thank you, you're welcome, and likewise, I'm sure. We can agree to disagree.

Maybe you're a little bit of a dreamer. Grand ideals have their place.

In most cases, there is solidarity on the big, issues like human rights and such. However, there are other issues that are knottier, like woman-only spaces and the perception that transitioning endows FTMs with male privilege, etc., etc.. These will not soon be resolved, I think.

Especially, when I read something like this:

It's almost like some of you want us that male identify and can pass or those who have transition to lay down on our bellies, crawl like a snake and beg your (general) forgiveness for simply being who we are. Chuckles, I for one will never do that. I have no apologies to make to anyone for being simply who I am.

This kind of perspective is not inconsequential.

[SelfMadeMan]

Originally Posted by Chazz

Thank you, you're welcome, and likewise, I'm sure. We can agree to disagree.

Maybe you're a little bit of a dreamer. Grand ideals have their place.

In most cases, there is solidarity on the big, issues like human rights and such. However, there are other issues that are knottier, like woman-only spaces and the perception that transitioning endows FTMs with male privilege, etc., etc.. These will not soon be resolved, I think.

Well since you brought up the knottier issues.... I had to mention that I probably am in solidarity with you on the two topics you touched on. Not to start a whole other thing in here - but I don't think Transmen have any place at a women's only space (i.e. Michigan Women's Music Festival, Women's Universities, etc), nor do I deny that when I transitioned, male privilege came with it. I don't think that has to be a negative, and I honestly don't understand why the mere mention of it pisses some people off. Perhaps it's in the delivery, I don't know, but I do acknowledge I have it and I use it responsibly. My opinions on these issues aren't necessarily popular with some members of the Trans community, so I *get* why you feel that solidarity in all issues may not be possible. But I still think it's something that can be achieved :-)

[Chazz]

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

Well since you brought up the knottier issues.... I had to mention that I probably am in solidarity with you on the two topics you touched on. Not to start a whole other thing in here - but I don't think Transmen have any place at a women's only space (i.e. Michigan Women's Music Festival, Women's Universities, etc), nor do I deny that when I transitioned, male privilege came with it. I don't think that has to be a negative, and I honestly don't understand why the mere mention of it pisses some people off. Perhaps it's in the delivery, I don't know, but I do acknowledge I have it and I use it responsibly. My opinions on these issues aren't necessarily popular with some members of the Trans community, so I *get* why you feel that solidarity in all issues may not be possible. But I still think it's something that can be achieved :-)

Time will tell on the knottier issues.

My interest in these issues isn't the conflict, per se. It's the inability for some to "see" or accommodate others needs and yet still insist on solidarity. I don't think you're doing this, SelfMadeMan.

Solidarity is an eye focused on the greater good. It is not, necessarily, unanimity of purpose or belief in all things, at all times. It's a renewable commodity, not stasis. No community can thrive on stasis.

Solidarity comes at a cost. It requires that individuals be able to budge, temporarily at least, move out of their comfort zone, forgo an immediate personal gain for the good of someone else.

This is a difficult thing for people who have suffered oppression, each in their own way, to achieve when their perceived needs sometimes come in conflict. Is it worth aspiring to, sure. The key word here is perceived.

Perceptions aren't reality. Feelings aren't facts. Solidarity is achieved when a common reality is agreed up based upon facts. Each of us must be sure that the story we tell ourselves about our lives, is consistent with the facts of our lives. Otherwise, we're waving at windmills and alienating those who might, otherwise, unite with us towards the greater good. Erecting hierarchies of oppression and playing upon people's emotions and/or guilt will not work over the long term.

That's it for me. I have to tend to the flood in my basement.