For the T-Femmes and SOFFAs...

[Bit]

I've been staying out of this thread... it pushed some big buttons for me and I needed a break. We'll see hopw far I get this time. *rueful look*

Originally Posted by evolveme

Except on a purely imaginary, play-pretend, lets-get-theoretical level, Bent can't answer these questions. I can sort of see why you asked him, but since I believe the effort was misplayed (not that I am hurt - I'm not) I'm going to answer.

My identity is in no way contingent upon the individual that I partner with, or any person with whom I might choose to enter sexual relations. My identity has never been and will never be "solely" defined by my sexuality.

That was my point, Julie. Bent was arguing that MY identity IS contingent on that; my question was rhetorical, really, since you've posted before and at length about how you identify.... I wanted him to look at you and look at me and see that we are the same that way, that NEITHER of us has based our identities on our partners.

Originally Posted by evolveme

Because of how I love, which is different than purely sexual desire (obviously), I am best to venture into relationship with a certain subset of masculine females and/or trans males.

Absolutely none of that defines me. It is only a marker, an indicator, as to my desires.

Again, you and I, we are the same--although I wish I had been this concisely articulate about it. You have just defined "Transensual" in the EXACT manner that I use it.

Originally Posted by evolveme

Should I say that my identity is heteronormative? Is that really what we're avoiding saying?

No, I don't think so. You might consider yourself heteronormative, but I sure don't... I live with a Butch, how can I be heteronormative? Everything I do is done with exquisite consciousness that I am NOT "just like a straight girl"--and that's deliberate. I think Queer, I live Queer, I love Queer.

Originally Posted by evolveme

I mean, as long as they aren't saying: I am Femmesensual (and let's face it; they're not - except Hey AZ!), and so few are saying "I id as straight," then it really isn't about identity for them in terms of us.

Maybe this is because they came to a stopping place before I did. Maybe they are content to simply say "Butch" or "Masculine" or whatever. I myself was once content to say "Lesbian" and after that content to say "Femme." But my life took me down a path that surprised, startled, and sometimes frightened me, a path that ultimately led me to the great joy of knowing myself as a whole person.

Being Transensual is about ME. It's about finally decoding my Owner's Manual, finally understanding who and what *I* am.

Originally Posted by evolveme

Someone will tell me my post is a derail.

No, don't think so. Any post that has such a succinct definition of Transensual in it--even though you choose not to use the word--cannot be a derail in a soffa thread.

Originally Posted by Mister Bent

Hell, Bit, she laughed!

Had e not answered already, my response to you would have been that my partner is a lesbian (whereas I am not) and that the question is hers, not mine, to answer (as she did).

I meant to make you both laugh; glad it worked. And again I say, just as the question was Julie's to answer, it is also MINE to answer. No one else may define Transensual for me.

Originally Posted by atomiczombie

Let me tell you how I see it from my *ME* space. As a transguy, I feel on the periphery of the butch-femme community sometimes, like I am allowed to be here but this space is really for butches and femmes, not guys like me. That is how I see it. And that is fine, the site is called "Butch-Femme Planet", not "Butch-Femme-Trans Planet". That said, it appears to me that when a femme, who identifies as lesbian, becomes interested in me, it is in-spite of my being trans. Like she is making an exception in my case. However, when a woman says she is a transsensual femme, it means that I am not an exception, that my trans identity isn't something to be overlooked. And that doesn't feel like a fetish at all. Instead, it feels like someone sees me, all of me, and loves me for everything that I am. That is a wonderful feeling.

Just my .02

Drew, you are my hero for that wonderful post. Thank you, thank you.

You are not the only guy who has said that you feel on the periphery in B-F space. You are not the only guy who has said that you sometimes feel a Femme might be interested in spite of your being trans.

When I was single, I put my whole "label" in my profile, Queer Transensual Stonefemme, because I wanted to let Transmen and soffas know there was space for them at the B-F table. I wanted to be a visible marker that said, "Yes, Trans community and allies, you are not alone here; there is a place for us all."

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

I understand what you are saying. The thing is there were a lot of people in this one workshop who *did* feel fetishized. They were pretty upset about it and it was a painful thing for them. It was hard for me to hear and I did not feel there was a place for me as a partner to express what it is about my partner that I love that is part of his trans experience. Because that is part of who he is and it part of why I love him.

I think it's important to back up here Julie, and separate out the two parts of your post. I understand that the Transmen felt fetishized, and of course that's horribly painful. It does immediately silence anyone who wants to talk about all the positive things she finds in her lover--because of course being supportive and caring, we can't bring ourselves to add to that pain.

But just who, exactly, did the fetishizing? Did they have concrete examples? Because I will tell you truly, hon, I have only EVER in seven years heard one Transman talk about one personal bad experience with Femmes; he overheard two idiots boasting about putting notches on their lipstick cases. Yes indeed, that was fetishizing, and distasteful---BUT they were boasting at the same time about the BUTCHES who were also notches on the lipstick case, so yanno, I have to think that was about the Femmes themselves, and NOT about the Transman, even though he took it extremely personally.

EVERY example of fetishization I have heard from Transmen after that has either been from Queers of one stripe or another who do not partner with Transmen, or straight people who, as you went on to say, "a long time to get past what bits someone has.".... I have not heard any Transmen speak directly about Transensual Femmes (or any other soffa) fetishizing them.

And now I must split my post... broke the character limit... oops.

[Bit]

Originally Posted by Hudson

First, I am wondering, because I need to understand, if the transsensual femmes here include in their attraction trans men who have not yet, are uncertain, are unable, or do not wish to seek physical transition. Or are we talking exclusively about men who have completed or are well into their transitions or those who fully intend to?

Hudson, fyi, there is only one "s" in Transensual. It is not a direct cognate of Transsexual. When Rhiannon invented the word, she was looking for something that would fit in, soundwise, but that would also describe us separately.

Maybe that's part of the problem. What's it been, only ten years now since she invented it? Her definition was narrow; she only meant the direct partner of a Transsexual man... but in these ten years this word has grown and grown to fit our whole community. It no longer carries this narrow exclusive meaning; it's broadened to include all manner of people.

There are, of course, Transensual Butches. The focus in this thread is on Femmes, but I think it's always wise to remember that Butches can partner with Transmen OR with Transwomen--and so can Femmes.

And yes, speaking as a Transensual Femme, of course I am attracted to any Transsexual man, transitioned or not. I am also attracted to the whole spectrum of Transgendered Butches.

Originally Posted by Hudson

I think it's important to know if transsensual femmes make these distinctions or not in order to pinpoint a fetishism, if one exists. It's also an important distinction to be made if we're to know if transsensual femme stands alone on its own.

That doesn't make any sense to me, Hudson. There are Transensual Femmes who are like me and are attracted to the whole spectrum of TG Butches as well as Transmen in any stage of transition. There are Transensual Femmes who are attracted only to transitioned Transmen. There are Transensual Femmes who are attracted only to Transmen BEFORE they finish transition. There are any number of combinations of all of the above. It isn't a flat, one-dimensional identity. It can't be pinned immobile to a board like a smothered butterfly.

Originally Posted by Hudson

But being trans is only part of who I am just as being a femme or a girlfriend or a mother or artist or mechanic is only part of who she is. And so it's concerning (to me) if someone is focused on only this part of who I am as much for her as it is for me.

As far as I can tell, the only people who are focused on "only that part of you" are the people who are saying Transensual=fetishizer. Those of us who actually LIVE this life? You better be a whole person, mister, or you aren't going to get a second look.

Speaking she quickly disclaims only for me, of course... but really shocked if it's any different for any of the Femmes in this thread, no matter how we identify....

Originally Posted by Hudson

So when this topic comes up, I always have to ask myself, 'Would she choose a misogynist, sexist prick trans man over a feminist-ally, sensitive cissexual man?"

That's a ridiculous idea. I personally would not choose a misogynist sexist prick of ANY stripe--been there, done that, never repeating that mistake again, burned the t-shirt.

Originally Posted by Hudson

(or any less extreme example) If the answer is yes, or that she would go out and seek another trans man specifically because he's trans and would not consider a cissexual man who comes along with all the same qualities she seeks, I know she has put me in some special category (one in which I likely don't even place myself) and perhaps does not see me as truly male and we are both going to be unhappy (most especially if she's made this distinction because of some aversion she has to cissexual men).

This is a common prejudice in the Trans community. It does not allow for the variety of female attraction. Just as there are as many varieties of Transmen as there are of csimen, there are as many varieties of Femmes as there are of Transmen.

If a Transman needs a partner who is also attracted to cismen in order to believe that she will validate him as a man, then I would suggest he would be wise to find someone who was at least bisexual, if not pansexual. It's possible to find both, whether in or out of the Transensual Femme community.

Originally Posted by Hudson

And I want to know that she appreciates my past - the pain and the struggle as much as the 'good things' like my female upbringing/conditioning and realize that, the painful irony, for both of us, is that those things that make me desirable to her have also been a source of a tremendous amount of torment. She has to love and understand all of that. And I imagine that's extremely difficult for a woman to navigate and accept her own desires around that truth. I don't know.

Well, no; it's not.

It's hard to watch y'all suffer, hard to know there's a limited amount any of us can do to ease it. It's hard to put up with mood swings from incorrect doses of T. It's hard, sometimes, to take a backseat to some guys' self-absorption in the early stages of transitioning.... but to love you? To accept you wholeheartedly for who you are and where you've been? To walk the path into where you're going and who you'll be?

That might be scary the first time, but on the whole, it's easy and natural.

Mind you, I do speak from the vantage point of a lot of thought and several year's experience. It might be harder for someone who has only previously identified as a Lesbian or as a Femme, whose partner is newly transitioning---BUT the difficulty there will most likely be the same as it is in the beginning for most of us, I think, dealing with one's internalized transphobia, and then dealing with the ramifications [a partner's] transition will have on her family and community. Those two things are the major themes that seem to run through the soffa community as I have known it: loving you is easy, dealing with our own community is hard.

After that, of course, there's the individual differences in couples; major themes are, by necessity, pretty general. Any couple can have trouble based on their own personalities and pre-existing relationship stresses.... but that's hardly unique to couples with a transitioning partner.

Originally Posted by Hudson

The question BullDog raised is not the same (to me) as with women who prefer to date/partner with stone butches who are cissexual.

Aren't too many of them, honey. *shrugs* By far the majority of the Stone Butches I have known have had some varying degrees of GID or have identified as male. Most of the Stones I have known--even including some of the female-identified Stone Butches--have really wrestled with whether to transition. Many of them HAVE transitioned, so many that at one point I actually thought there was a link between a Butch being Stone and being Transsexual, as if the one might be a predictor of the other.

Originally Posted by Hudson

The identity of stone femme, depending on who you ask, carries a lot of different meanings. ...... I imagine some stone femmes see the identity as their gender.

Indeed *smiling* some of us do.

Originally Posted by Hudson

Bottom line is, none of this has to do with a person's gender and/or the alteration of physical self in respect to gender and being visible as such.

If I were not able to accept any gender a Stone Butch might express; if I were not able to accept top surgery or T--and some Stone Butches do either or both; if I were not able to accept the needs of any Stone Butch to explore both GID and whether or not he or she needed to transition; if I were not able to accept a Stone Butch's need to bind, pack, and pass as a man in the world, I would be a pretty lonely Stone Femme, since these are all common in the Stone community.

Transsexual men do not have a lock on the process, darlin. It is, from my experience, the same process that plays out among many GenderQueer and Third Gender Butches, as well.

In my personal experience, the most common theme among Butches of all identities is whether or not they should transition. This may be a skewed experience; it may be that because Butches usually find me someone who is able to accept and validate them no matter their ID, someone who is safe to say almost anything to, that I hear more about transitioning issues and questions than about other issues; it may be that other people would hear more about some other issues.... but I tell you truly that I have not met many Butches who have not had to wrestle the question to the ground.

What this means for me as a Transensual Femme is that the issues are not so different between Butches and Transsexual men; only the outcome is, and I am lucky enough to be able to walk the path with someone whether he transitions or not, whether he is a Butch or a Transsexual man, because I see him as he needs to be seen.

I suppose that's at the heart of the definition of Transensual for me: it describes my ability to see you, not as your body, but as YOU, your true self.

Call that a fetish if you will. Call me invalid if you will.

[atomiczombie]

Cath, I just want to say you are so super duper wonderful. The intelligence, grace and power of your posts always blows me away. You are a very strong woman as well as a sweetheart. I totally get what you mean by transensual, and I want to thank you for sharing your perspective.

[apretty]

i'm not understanding and/or i'm find this post problematic:

Originally Posted by Bit

speaking as a Transensual Femme, of course I am attracted to any Transsexual man, transitioned or not. I am also attracted to the whole spectrum of Transgendered Butches.

any?


If a Transman needs a partner who is also attracted to cismen in order to believe that she will validate him as a man, then I would suggest he would be wise to find someone who was at least bisexual, if not pansexual. It's possible to find both, whether in or out of the Transensual Femme community.

many transsexual men aren't interested in femmes because they're not interested in a B/F relationship, they've transitioned so that their *outside* can match their inside male-since-birth-selves. i don't see a thing wrong with that.



I think, dealing with one's internalized transphobia.


what's that?


these statements about 'majority of stone butches/any butches' wrestling with or even considering gender-re-assignment is hugely problematic for those one million butches that do not/have never/will not transition.

By far the majority of the Stone Butches I have known have had some varying degrees of GID or have identified as male. Most of the Stones I have known--even including some of the female-identified Stone Butches--have really wrestled with whether to transition. Many of them HAVE transitioned, so many that at one point I actually thought there was a link between a Butch being Stone and being Transsexual, as if the one might be a predictor of the other.

these are all common in the Stone community.
...
In my personal experience, the most common theme among Butches of all identities is whether or not they should transition. ...but I tell you truly that I have not met many Butches who have not had to wrestle the question to the ground.

I suppose that's at the heart of the definition of Transensual for me: it describes my ability to see you, not as your body, but as YOU, your true self.

Bit, i do read that you love you some trans-men, and that's great for you, but i wonder if you've considered that by making statements about your 'ability to see the transman as he sees himself' in a way that is a unique and special-to-a-stone/t-femme quality that you *other* and (as previously mentioned in this thread,) 'exoticize' loving a person that i propose, isn't such a big amazing deal. i feel this *othering* is, in fact, damaging if we ever want to normalize what it is to be a transexual human: with the focus where it should belong, on the *human*; good and worthy and flawed like the rest of us.

[Dylan]

May I ask a question?

What is the big deal if some femmes like the term T-femme, transensual femme, or SOFFA? Honestly, what is the big f-ing deal?

As a transman (who apparently can't speak for himself when it comes to 'othering') I do not feel othered or fetishized by the term or by the fact that there are femmes in the world who like to date transmen. Speaking for myself as a transman, I do not feel othered at all. In fact, it's damned refreshing for a change. For ten years I have seen thread after thread about femmes who like this kind of butch and femmes who like that kind of butch and femmes who like all butches and so on and so forth. I have seen thread after thread about why femmes will NOT partner with transmen, and I've endured horror story after horror story about how ThisFemme or ThatFemme once dated a transman, and he turned out to be dick. I have listened to lesbian femmes discuss all the reasonings and whynots that they find transmen "disturbing".

Ya' know, there ARE differences in relationships between those who are transitioning and those who aren't transitioning. There just are. And guess what...femmes who ARE partnered with transmen, haven't had a thread in...what?...at least 4or5 years now. There have been issues in my relationships in which my partners had NO other femmes with whom to discuss certain issues, questions, whatnots that came up...and the same rings true today, because some people don't like a term that other people have decided for themselves to use in their identities. Can't there just be a thread in which femmes who want or need a place to discuss the issues they deal with in our relationships to share and discuss without feeling accosted? Because honestly, Mahhh Woman is accosted enough by outsiders, family, the queer community, the straight community, by coworkers, and even by random strangers on the street.

I mean, for chrissakes, if saying you like transmen is 'othering' than we'd better shut down all of the "I love butches, because..." threads too for being 'othering'...I mean, since butches just want to be 'normalized' and all.

For realz, can't there just be ONE thread in which femmes partnered with transmen can just have a conversation without having their identities picked apart again? Because it's not like there's a slew of Partners of Transmen waltzing around in every city to just ask whatever random question you have or to find support. And it's not like their identities aren't picked apart already be the majority of the queer community telling them they're not queer or the majority of the straight community telling them they're not straight.

And one more question, why is it that a femme's sexuality is assumed to be pansexual within this community? NO ONE would have their knickers in a twist if this were a thread in which femmes wanted to talk about how they only partner with female ID'd butches, and how hot they think female ID'd butches are. I mean, honestly, are femmes just supposed to be into any butch who crosses the street? Or are they allowed to be interested in particular types of butches? Or particular subsets? Or (god forbid) ONLY transmen? Seriously. This really is a serious question, because I see this happen a lot...yet, butches are NEVER questioned as to why they only like X femmes, or Y femmes. This just reeks of more monitoring of sexuality. Yeah, some femmes are going to be into transmen and not cismen...sexuality isn't black and white, and there's a grey area in between straight and lesbian <shocking, I know>. And some femmes are going to ID more along the straight lines by only partnering with X transmen or B transmen or male ID'd butches. And some femmes are going to ID as lesbian, but date transmen <again, so shocking>. I mean, that's just the way it is...or are femmes really supposed to be omnisexual in this community? Are they really supposed to be hot for everyone EXCEPT cismen...oh wait, they're supposed to be hot for cismen too, because if they're not hot for cismen too, you can bet some transguy is going to feel invalidated. Sounds like a double bind to me.

Again, there are some very specific differences between dating a transguy and dating a female ID'd butch or a pre-T guy or a guy who's been on T for two years/four years/6months/etc or a cisman. So, why can't that be discussed without another breakdown of terms? I mean, who's Mahhh Woman supposed to ask about shooting T in my ass without killing me if that's a concern she has? And who are partners supposed to talk to about things like being read as straight when you consider yourself a lesbian? And who are partners supposed to talk to about navigating workplace issues after they've invested years in coming out at work, only to now be partnered with a transguy and having to explain using male pronouns? Or how about coming out to your family, and now you have to go back to your family and say, "Oh, by the way, I'm now with a guy...who may or may not look like a girl this week." Seriously, these are all issues partners I've had would have LOVED to discuss with other femmes, but they were too afraid (or fed up) to bring it up on these boards, because they knew how the conversation would go. These are all conversations A LOT of partners could really benefit from, and they're conversations most of us transguys don't have answers to either. Our transitions are not one way paths that don't affect our partners (and contrary to popular belief, they're not all about us either...as has been repeated a billion times in the "Why I Won't Date A Transman" Threads). So, honestly, the next time my partner asks me a question on an issue I don't face, who should she ask next? Should she come here to squabble over someone else's ID? If you don't like the term, don't use it...seems pretty simple. I mean, I don't much care for the term transsexual, so I don't use it...but if other transguys claim that term for themselves, it really doesn't affect me; so I'm not understanding why the thread has to get stuck on Bit's or Rainbow's personally chosen term/additional marker/distinguishing/ID/label/supplement/whatever y'all want to call it. I mean, if you don't like 'babygirl' does that mean other people can't use it to describe themselves? Because doesn't that 'other' daddies? (rhetorical)

If there IS a soffa site somewhere, will someone please let me know, so I can pass it along to not only Mahhh Woman but other femmes I know who are partnered to transguys and have questions/would like to meet other soffas, but who don't want to have their sexuality/IDs re-hashed or scrutinized one.more.time.


Thank You,
Dylan

[Cyclopea]

I prefer to hear femme voices in this femme thread posted in the femme zone.
Yes I am aware of the hypocrisy/irony of my non-femme post.

[atomiczombie]

Originally Posted by Cyclopea

I prefer to hear femme voices in this femme thread posted in the femme zone.
Yes I am aware of the hypocrisy/irony of my non-femme post.

And I am so amused at the irony of this post.

[Cyclopea]

Originally Posted by atomiczombie

And I am so amused at the irony of this post.

Awesome!

[Words]

Brilliant post Dylan.

Words

Originally Posted by Dylan

May I ask a question?

What is the big deal if some femmes like the term T-femme, transensual femme, or SOFFA? Honestly, what is the big f-ing deal?

As a transman (who apparently can't speak for himself when it comes to 'othering') I do not feel othered or fetishized by the term or by the fact that there are femmes in the world who like to date transmen. Speaking for myself as a transman, I do not feel othered at all. In fact, it's damned refreshing for a change. For ten years I have seen thread after thread about femmes who like this kind of butch and femmes who like that kind of butch and femmes who like all butches and so on and so forth. I have seen thread after thread about why femmes will NOT partner with transmen, and I've endured horror story after horror story about how ThisFemme or ThatFemme once dated a transman, and he turned out to be dick. I have listened to lesbian femmes discuss all the reasonings and whynots that they find transmen "disturbing".

Ya' know, there ARE differences in relationships between those who are transitioning and those who aren't transitioning. There just are. And guess what...femmes who ARE partnered with transmen, haven't had a thread in...what?...at least 4or5 years now. There have been issues in my relationships in which my partners had NO other femmes with whom to discuss certain issues, questions, whatnots that came up...and the same rings true today, because some people don't like a term that other people have decided for themselves to use in their identities. Can't there just be a thread in which femmes who want or need a place to discuss the issues they deal with in our relationships to share and discuss without feeling accosted? Because honestly, Mahhh Woman is accosted enough by outsiders, family, the queer community, the straight community, by coworkers, and even by random strangers on the street.

I mean, for chrissakes, if saying you like transmen is 'othering' than we'd better shut down all of the "I love butches, because..." threads too for being 'othering'...I mean, since butches just want to be 'normalized' and all.

For realz, can't there just be ONE thread in which femmes partnered with transmen can just have a conversation without having their identities picked apart again? Because it's not like there's a slew of Partners of Transmen waltzing around in every city to just ask whatever random question you have or to find support. And it's not like their identities aren't picked apart already be the majority of the queer community telling them they're not queer or the majority of the straight community telling them they're not straight.

And one more question, why is it that a femme's sexuality is assumed to be pansexual within this community? NO ONE would have their knickers in a twist if this were a thread in which femmes wanted to talk about how they only partner with female ID'd butches, and how hot they think female ID'd butches are. I mean, honestly, are femmes just supposed to be into any butch who crosses the street? Or are they allowed to be interested in particular types of butches? Or particular subsets? Or (god forbid) ONLY transmen? Seriously. This really is a serious question, because I see this happen a lot...yet, butches are NEVER questioned as to why they only like X femmes, or Y femmes. This just reeks of more monitoring of sexuality. Yeah, some femmes are going to be into transmen and not cismen...sexuality isn't black and white, and there's a grey area in between straight and lesbian <shocking, I know>. And some femmes are going to ID more along the straight lines by only partnering with X transmen or B transmen or male ID'd butches. And some femmes are going to ID as lesbian, but date transmen <again, so shocking>. I mean, that's just the way it is...or are femmes really supposed to be omnisexual in this community? Are they really supposed to be hot for everyone EXCEPT cismen...oh wait, they're supposed to be hot for cismen too, because if they're not hot for cismen too, you can bet some transguy is going to feel invalidated. Sounds like a double bind to me.

Again, there are some very specific differences between dating a transguy and dating a female ID'd butch or a pre-T guy or a guy who's been on T for two years/four years/6months/etc or a cisman. So, why can't that be discussed without another breakdown of terms? I mean, who's Mahhh Woman supposed to ask about shooting T in my ass without killing me if that's a concern she has? And who are partners supposed to talk to about things like being read as straight when you consider yourself a lesbian? And who are partners supposed to talk to about navigating workplace issues after they've invested years in coming out at work, only to now be partnered with a transguy and having to explain using male pronouns? Or how about coming out to your family, and now you have to go back to your family and say, "Oh, by the way, I'm now with a guy...who may or may not look like a girl this week." Seriously, these are all issues partners I've had would have LOVED to discuss with other femmes, but they were too afraid (or fed up) to bring it up on these boards, because they knew how the conversation would go. These are all conversations A LOT of partners could really benefit from, and they're conversations most of us transguys don't have answers to either. Our transitions are not one way paths that don't affect our partners (and contrary to popular belief, they're not all about us either...as has been repeated a billion times in the "Why I Won't Date A Transman" Threads). So, honestly, the next time my partner asks me a question on an issue I don't face, who should she ask next? Should she come here to squabble over someone else's ID? If you don't like the term, don't use it...seems pretty simple. I mean, I don't much care for the term transsexual, so I don't use it...but if other transguys claim that term for themselves, it really doesn't affect me; so I'm not understanding why the thread has to get stuck on Bit's or Rainbow's personally chosen term/additional marker/distinguishing/ID/label/supplement/whatever y'all want to call it. I mean, if you don't like 'babygirl' does that mean other people can't use it to describe themselves? Because doesn't that 'other' daddies? (rhetorical)

If there IS a soffa site somewhere, will someone please let me know, so I can pass it along to not only Mahhh Woman but other femmes I know who are partnered to transguys and have questions/would like to meet other soffas, but who don't want to have their sexuality/IDs re-hashed or scrutinized one.more.time.


Thank You,
Dylan

[apretty]

holy manifesto!

Originally Posted by Dylan

As a transman (who apparently can't speak for himself when it comes to 'othering') I do not feel othered or fetishized by the term or by the fact that there are femmes in the world who like to date transmen. Speaking for myself as a transman, I do not feel othered at all. In fact, it's damned refreshing for a change. For ten years I have seen thread after thread about femmes who like this kind of butch and femmes who like that kind of butch and femmes who like all butches and so on and so forth. I have seen thread after thread about why femmes will NOT partner with transmen, and I've endured horror story after horror story about how ThisFemme or ThatFemme once dated a transman, and he turned out to be dick. I have listened to lesbian femmes discuss all the reasonings and whynots that they find transmen "disturbing".

Ya' know, there ARE differences in relationships between those who are transitioning and those who aren't transitioning. There just are. And guess what...femmes who ARE partnered with transmen, haven't had a thread in...what?...at least 4or5 years now. There have been issues in my relationships in which my partners had NO other femmes with whom to discuss certain issues, questions, whatnots that came up...and the same rings true today, because some people don't like a term that other people have decided for themselves to use in their identities. Can't there just be a thread in which femmes who want or need a place to discuss the issues they deal with in our relationships to share and discuss without feeling accosted? Because honestly, Mahhh Woman is accosted enough by outsiders, family, the queer community, the straight community, by coworkers, and even by random strangers on the street.

I mean, for chrissakes, if saying you like transmen is 'othering' than we'd better shut down all of the "I love butches, because..." threads too for being 'othering'...I mean, since butches just want to be 'normalized' and all.

For realz, can't there just be ONE thread in which femmes partnered with transmen can just have a conversation without having their identities picked apart again? Because it's not like there's a slew of Partners of Transmen waltzing around in every city to just ask whatever random question you have or to find support. And it's not like their identities aren't picked apart already be the majority of the queer community telling them they're not queer or the majority of the straight community telling them they're not straight.

And one more question, why is it that a femme's sexuality is assumed to be pansexual within this community? NO ONE would have their knickers in a twist if this were a thread in which femmes wanted to talk about how they only partner with female ID'd butches, and how hot they think female ID'd butches are. I mean, honestly, are femmes just supposed to be into any butch who crosses the street? Or are they allowed to be interested in particular types of butches? Or particular subsets? Or (god forbid) ONLY transmen? Seriously. This really is a serious question, because I see this happen a lot...yet, butches are NEVER questioned as to why they only like X femmes, or Y femmes. This just reeks of more monitoring of sexuality. Yeah, some femmes are going to be into transmen and not cismen...sexuality isn't black and white, and there's a grey area in between straight and lesbian <shocking, I know>. And some femmes are going to ID more along the straight lines by only partnering with X transmen or B transmen or male ID'd butches. And some femmes are going to ID as lesbian, but date transmen <again, so shocking>. I mean, that's just the way it is...or are femmes really supposed to be omnisexual in this community? Are they really supposed to be hot for everyone EXCEPT cismen...oh wait, they're supposed to be hot for cismen too, because if they're not hot for cismen too, you can bet some transguy is going to feel invalidated. Sounds like a double bind to me.

Again, there are some very specific differences between dating a transguy and dating a female ID'd butch or a pre-T guy or a guy who's been on T for two years/four years/6months/etc or a cisman. So, why can't that be discussed without another breakdown of terms? I mean, who's Mahhh Woman supposed to ask about shooting T in my ass without killing me if that's a concern she has? And who are partners supposed to talk to about things like being read as straight when you consider yourself a lesbian? And who are partners supposed to talk to about navigating workplace issues after they've invested years in coming out at work, only to now be partnered with a transguy and having to explain using male pronouns? Or how about coming out to your family, and now you have to go back to your family and say, "Oh, by the way, I'm now with a guy...who may or may not look like a girl this week." Seriously, these are all issues partners I've had would have LOVED to discuss with other femmes, but they were too afraid (or fed up) to bring it up on these boards, because they knew how the conversation would go. These are all conversations A LOT of partners could really benefit from, and they're conversations most of us transguys don't have answers to either. Our transitions are not one way paths that don't affect our partners (and contrary to popular belief, they're not all about us either...as has been repeated a billion times in the "Why I Won't Date A Transman" Threads). So, honestly, the next time my partner asks me a question on an issue I don't face, who should she ask next? Should she come here to squabble over someone else's ID? If you don't like the term, don't use it...seems pretty simple. I mean, I don't much care for the term transsexual, so I don't use it...but if other transguys claim that term for themselves, it really doesn't affect me; so I'm not understanding why the thread has to get stuck on Bit's or Rainbow's personally chosen term/additional marker/distinguishing/ID/label/supplement/whatever y'all want to call it. I mean, if you don't like 'babygirl' does that mean other people can't use it to describe themselves? Because doesn't that 'other' daddies? (rhetorical)

If there IS a soffa site somewhere, will someone please let me know, so I can pass it along to not only Mahhh Woman but other femmes I know who are partnered to transguys and have questions/would like to meet other soffas, but who don't want to have their sexuality/IDs re-hashed or scrutinized one.more.time.


Thank You,
Dylan

[julieisafemme]

I am a femme. I don't think Bit or anyone else is being called out for how they identify. I know you can speak for yourself. I can speak for me too. I don't think it is a big deal at all how a femme chooses to identify. It is a big deal to me how *I* choose to identify. Right now I am not comfortable with transensual femme.

I do need a thread where I can talk about how I feel as a partner of a transmasculine butch. I feel very alone and isolated a lot of the time. Both in real time and online. I like hearing all the opinions and sharing things I have learned. I don't need a transman or a butch to come in here and tell who can post and what they can post. I am perfectly capable of that. The discussion that I am having with Bit and reading from others helps *me* place where I fit.

Originally Posted by Dylan

May I ask a question?

What is the big deal if some femmes like the term T-femme, transensual femme, or SOFFA? Honestly, what is the big f-ing deal?

As a transman (who apparently can't speak for himself when it comes to 'othering') I do not feel othered or fetishized by the term or by the fact that there are femmes in the world who like to date transmen. Speaking for myself as a transman, I do not feel othered at all. In fact, it's damned refreshing for a change. For ten years I have seen thread after thread about femmes who like this kind of butch and femmes who like that kind of butch and femmes who like all butches and so on and so forth. I have seen thread after thread about why femmes will NOT partner with transmen, and I've endured horror story after horror story about how ThisFemme or ThatFemme once dated a transman, and he turned out to be dick. I have listened to lesbian femmes discuss all the reasonings and whynots that they find transmen "disturbing".

Ya' know, there ARE differences in relationships between those who are transitioning and those who aren't transitioning. There just are. And guess what...femmes who ARE partnered with transmen, haven't had a thread in...what?...at least 4or5 years now. There have been issues in my relationships in which my partners had NO other femmes with whom to discuss certain issues, questions, whatnots that came up...and the same rings true today, because some people don't like a term that other people have decided for themselves to use in their identities. Can't there just be a thread in which femmes who want or need a place to discuss the issues they deal with in our relationships to share and discuss without feeling accosted? Because honestly, Mahhh Woman is accosted enough by outsiders, family, the queer community, the straight community, by coworkers, and even by random strangers on the street.

I mean, for chrissakes, if saying you like transmen is 'othering' than we'd better shut down all of the "I love butches, because..." threads too for being 'othering'...I mean, since butches just want to be 'normalized' and all.

For realz, can't there just be ONE thread in which femmes partnered with transmen can just have a conversation without having their identities picked apart again? Because it's not like there's a slew of Partners of Transmen waltzing around in every city to just ask whatever random question you have or to find support. And it's not like their identities aren't picked apart already be the majority of the queer community telling them they're not queer or the majority of the straight community telling them they're not straight.

And one more question, why is it that a femme's sexuality is assumed to be pansexual within this community? NO ONE would have their knickers in a twist if this were a thread in which femmes wanted to talk about how they only partner with female ID'd butches, and how hot they think female ID'd butches are. I mean, honestly, are femmes just supposed to be into any butch who crosses the street? Or are they allowed to be interested in particular types of butches? Or particular subsets? Or (god forbid) ONLY transmen? Seriously. This really is a serious question, because I see this happen a lot...yet, butches are NEVER questioned as to why they only like X femmes, or Y femmes. This just reeks of more monitoring of sexuality. Yeah, some femmes are going to be into transmen and not cismen...sexuality isn't black and white, and there's a grey area in between straight and lesbian <shocking, I know>. And some femmes are going to ID more along the straight lines by only partnering with X transmen or B transmen or male ID'd butches. And some femmes are going to ID as lesbian, but date transmen <again, so shocking>. I mean, that's just the way it is...or are femmes really supposed to be omnisexual in this community? Are they really supposed to be hot for everyone EXCEPT cismen...oh wait, they're supposed to be hot for cismen too, because if they're not hot for cismen too, you can bet some transguy is going to feel invalidated. Sounds like a double bind to me.

Again, there are some very specific differences between dating a transguy and dating a female ID'd butch or a pre-T guy or a guy who's been on T for two years/four years/6months/etc or a cisman. So, why can't that be discussed without another breakdown of terms? I mean, who's Mahhh Woman supposed to ask about shooting T in my ass without killing me if that's a concern she has? And who are partners supposed to talk to about things like being read as straight when you consider yourself a lesbian? And who are partners supposed to talk to about navigating workplace issues after they've invested years in coming out at work, only to now be partnered with a transguy and having to explain using male pronouns? Or how about coming out to your family, and now you have to go back to your family and say, "Oh, by the way, I'm now with a guy...who may or may not look like a girl this week." Seriously, these are all issues partners I've had would have LOVED to discuss with other femmes, but they were too afraid (or fed up) to bring it up on these boards, because they knew how the conversation would go. These are all conversations A LOT of partners could really benefit from, and they're conversations most of us transguys don't have answers to either. Our transitions are not one way paths that don't affect our partners (and contrary to popular belief, they're not all about us either...as has been repeated a billion times in the "Why I Won't Date A Transman" Threads). So, honestly, the next time my partner asks me a question on an issue I don't face, who should she ask next? Should she come here to squabble over someone else's ID? If you don't like the term, don't use it...seems pretty simple. I mean, I don't much care for the term transsexual, so I don't use it...but if other transguys claim that term for themselves, it really doesn't affect me; so I'm not understanding why the thread has to get stuck on Bit's or Rainbow's personally chosen term/additional marker/distinguishing/ID/label/supplement/whatever y'all want to call it. I mean, if you don't like 'babygirl' does that mean other people can't use it to describe themselves? Because doesn't that 'other' daddies? (rhetorical)

If there IS a soffa site somewhere, will someone please let me know, so I can pass it along to not only Mahhh Woman but other femmes I know who are partnered to transguys and have questions/would like to meet other soffas, but who don't want to have their sexuality/IDs re-hashed or scrutinized one.more.time.


Thank You,
Dylan

[julieisafemme]

Ok I know I am annoying but I just wanted to clarify that I am not dismissing or jumping on Bit or Dylan. I LOVE Dylan. He is my good buddy. We don't always agree and that is ok. Bit is a wonderful poster and I have learned a lot from her. I want it to be ok for us to ask questions and engage in debate as long as we are respectful. I feel like that has been the case thus far. I am sorry if anything I have said has seemed not respectful or mean.

Some days I am really lonely and worn down. The reality is that finding a cohesive trans community where everyone identifies like me is not going to happen. I am open to and want to talk to all partners of trans people. Some people are stealth. Some are not. Some people pass. Some do not. I need support so I can be the best support to my partner. I am hoping that we can all feel safe and comfortable posting and sharing here.

[Soon]

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

Ok I know I am annoying but I just wanted to clarify that I am not dismissing or jumping on Bit or Dylan. I LOVE Dylan. He is my good buddy. We don't always agree and that is ok. Bit is a wonderful poster and I have learned a lot from her. I want it to be ok for us to ask questions and engage in debate as long as we are respectful. I feel like that has been the case thus far. I am sorry if anything I have said has seemed not respectful or mean.

Some days I am really lonely and worn down. The reality is that finding a cohesive trans community where everyone identifies like me is not going to happen. I am open to and want to talk to all partners of trans people. Some people are stealth. Some are not. Some people pass. Some do not. I need support so I can be the best support to my partner. I am hoping that we can all feel safe and comfortable posting and sharing here.

I hear you, Julie, but, sometimes, I need support just for me--just for ME.

I've enjoyed reading everyone's responses to this thread.


Thank you to one and all and especially to Rainbow for starting the thread!

[firie]

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

Ok I know I am annoying but I just wanted to clarify that I am not dismissing or jumping on Bit or Dylan. I LOVE Dylan. He is my good buddy. We don't always agree and that is ok. Bit is a wonderful poster and I have learned a lot from her. I want it to be ok for us to ask questions and engage in debate as long as we are respectful. I feel like that has been the case thus far. I am sorry if anything I have said has seemed not respectful or mean.

Some days I am really lonely and worn down. The reality is that finding a cohesive trans community where everyone identifies like me is not going to happen. I am open to and want to talk to all partners of trans people. Some people are stealth. Some are not. Some people pass. Some do not. I need support so I can be the best support to my partner. I am hoping that we can all feel safe and comfortable posting and sharing here.

Me too! I wanted to say that I adore you! And hate that you feel lonely and down! And I so hear you! In my me opinion, I don't think you can talk this out with a great many gay and lesbian people, they maybe don't get it, and that's okay, as that's not a sentiment that's meant to war, but just be truthful. We went and listened to a Q&A by Miss Majors and her stance is that the trans community has to separate itself from the GLB community (which is difficult) in order to reach its own goals, as the GLB community has very different goals and this often conflicts a great deal (and perhaps why there is always in-fighting and really protective, however attacking stances, back and forth between primarily gay and trans communities). Yet this makes for a lonelier existence in ways, because despite befriending whoever, you really can't connect on certain issues with people unless they too are experiencing just that and that is really difficult to find, I think because of the diversity, you noted, within the trans community. So what does one do?

I am rambling, but I wish we had more groups for significant others to just talk. I don't know about the labels discussion, as I am really done with labels lately. And also I just hands down believe that self-identity is self-identity and that potential for empowerment loses personal and political power when folks try to slice it all up. Yeah, I think anyone can be anything they want, and that is that. However, a person's actions perhaps are more important to critique if any actual change is going to come from the issues one has with one's behavior. And as with any other id, transensual is going to be what it is to any given person. Objectification is going to feel objectifying depending on how a person feels in whatever situation is objectifying. Relationships don't work if objectification is a problem two people cannot get past, that seems to be a given.

I think too, again, you have conflicting interests in the GLB and Trans communities, perhaps. Or maybe this is just me, but it feels that way certainly. I can't identify from a lesbian context--I am not a lesbian and to claim the identity is disrespectful and privileged to do so. I can't identify or relate to lesbians who do date males, as I can't imagine the dilemma there for certain couples with respect to that identity--it is a challenge I imagine in a number of ways. I date guys, always have, and am not pansexual in any sense. I do get frustrated with it often being assumed that I am omni-or pansexual because of my femme identity. I also get frustrated with it being assumed that I am inherently lesbian when I am not. That is not in anyway a diss to lesbians, I just can't fit into the identity, because even the occasional times I have dated females, well, it didn't work. I know this about myself, despite how heteronormative it feels/is and despite how it situates me in the queer community.

I am really tired, too, of utilizing the internet for information. I have a busy schedule and only spend a few hours a week online. I want a more social avenue, really. Some girlfriends who can lunch and talk this stuff out. So move here, k? Or we will maybe move there?

I ask you, or anyone, do you have any groups? What are they like? Are they helpful? I have had a hell of time finding them here, and nothing that is significant other specific. Because I would like to bond with other partners if possible, as I think that would be healthy and helpful. Just me. If I have the time, at some point, I may very well start a group. As prevalent as the trans community is in Austin, it's not very visible--seems to work a great deal behind the scenes and understandably so. Gender variance is one thing, and there is a lot of visibility for the gender queer here, but again, that doesn't exactly fit us, when it comes to just getting social acquaintances that get where Dylan and I are coming from. For me, there are femme groups, but that doesn't really hit the nail on the head either, and I am really frustrated with femme anyway lately, as a label for me. It feels restrictive, is difficult to bond in, and well, doesn't really empower me or fit me anymore. Dylan and I have been contemplating moving, and even to Houston, because there is a larger community there, and more resources. Austin is really restrictive in a great many ways, because it isn't urban enough to have a great deal of non-profit agency, per se for your smaller "minorities" despite its claiming that it does so. There isn't even really a GLBT center here, per se. Austin also purports to be so "queer" friendly that we all just intermix and live as Austinites, which is just simply not true. Austin kind of approaches race that way too, failing to remind itself that it still segregates daily. We would love to get out of Texas but timing for us on that just makes it impossible at this point in time--I have a new job and Dylan is all over the place with work. Again, sorry, I think I am rambling.

I don't know, it can be frustrating, right?

[julieisafemme]

Well Bit I can't go into the particulars as the rules of the workshops were what was shared was private. All I can tell you is that there were queers of all types mentioned. No one said a word about straight people.

OOHHHH EARTHQUAKE!!!! As I was typing. Scary!!

I am not quite clear on why you are invested in negating what was shared by these trans men and women? I am simply relating to you my experience. It is not a feeling my partner has experienced, nor is it an issue in our relationship. It was eye opening to me that this does occur.

This thread is for transensual femmes as well as SOFFAs. I am a SOFFA. A transensual butch could be a SOFFA. I think the discussion should be for all who love and support gender variant people.

Originally Posted by Bit

I've been staying out of this thread... it pushed some big buttons for me and I needed a break. We'll see hopw far I get this time. *rueful look*



That was my point, Julie. Bent was arguing that MY identity IS contingent on that; my question was rhetorical, really, since you've posted before and at length about how you identify.... I wanted him to look at you and look at me and see that we are the same that way, that NEITHER of us has based our identities on our partners.



Again, you and I, we are the same--although I wish I had been this concisely articulate about it. You have just defined "Transensual" in the EXACT manner that I use it.



No, I don't think so. You might consider yourself heteronormative, but I sure don't... I live with a Butch, how can I be heteronormative? Everything I do is done with exquisite consciousness that I am NOT "just like a straight girl"--and that's deliberate. I think Queer, I live Queer, I love Queer.



Maybe this is because they came to a stopping place before I did. Maybe they are content to simply say "Butch" or "Masculine" or whatever. I myself was once content to say "Lesbian" and after that content to say "Femme." But my life took me down a path that surprised, startled, and sometimes frightened me, a path that ultimately led me to the great joy of knowing myself as a whole person.

Being Transensual is about ME. It's about finally decoding my Owner's Manual, finally understanding who and what *I* am.



No, don't think so. Any post that has such a succinct definition of Transensual in it--even though you choose not to use the word--cannot be a derail in a soffa thread.



I meant to make you both laugh; glad it worked. And again I say, just as the question was Julie's to answer, it is also MINE to answer. No one else may define Transensual for me.



Drew, you are my hero for that wonderful post. Thank you, thank you.

You are not the only guy who has said that you feel on the periphery in B-F space. You are not the only guy who has said that you sometimes feel a Femme might be interested in spite of your being trans.

When I was single, I put my whole "label" in my profile, Queer Transensual Stonefemme, because I wanted to let Transmen and soffas know there was space for them at the B-F table. I wanted to be a visible marker that said, "Yes, Trans community and allies, you are not alone here; there is a place for us all."



I think it's important to back up here Julie, and separate out the two parts of your post. I understand that the Transmen felt fetishized, and of course that's horribly painful. It does immediately silence anyone who wants to talk about all the positive things she finds in her lover--because of course being supportive and caring, we can't bring ourselves to add to that pain.

But just who, exactly, did the fetishizing? Did they have concrete examples? Because I will tell you truly, hon, I have only EVER in seven years heard one Transman talk about one personal bad experience with Femmes; he overheard two idiots boasting about putting notches on their lipstick cases. Yes indeed, that was fetishizing, and distasteful---BUT they were boasting at the same time about the BUTCHES who were also notches on the lipstick case, so yanno, I have to think that was about the Femmes themselves, and NOT about the Transman, even though he took it extremely personally.

EVERY example of fetishization I have heard from Transmen after that has either been from Queers of one stripe or another who do not partner with Transmen, or straight people who, as you went on to say, "a long time to get past what bits someone has.".... I have not heard any Transmen speak directly about Transensual Femmes (or any other soffa) fetishizing them.

And now I must split my post... broke the character limit... oops.

[Bit]

{{{{{{{{{{{Julie}}}}}}}}}}}}}

I'm glad you were okay during the earthquake. My apologies for taking so long to answer you--I kept timing out when I tried to sign in, and finally decided just to wait until after the server migration was complete.

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

Well Bit I can't go into the particulars as the rules of the workshops were what was shared was private.

That isn't what I asked, hon. I only asked if they gave concrete examples, you know, "this and such happened to me last month" or whatever. I don't have any need to know WHAT happened to them, only to know IF something concrete happened.

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

I am not quite clear on why you are invested in negating what was shared by these trans men and women?

I have no interest in negating anyone, honey. I was asking you for information. I was asking you if your experience listening to them talk about fetishizing matched mine or not... because my personal experience is that only one Transman had any concrete example of being fetishized, and all the rest of them who threw the accusation at me said that what was fetishizing was merely that I was attracted to them at all. They said it was fetishizing for me to be attracted to a Transman because I am not a straight woman.

In other words, it was not their personal experiences of being fetishized that were driving the accusation--and I never heard these particular Transmen give any concrete examples of being fetishized--it was their belief that "only a straight woman can properly love a Transman" that led them to say "all Transensual Femmes are therefore fetishists."

This bothers the hell out of me and it hurts like hell too, so that's why I asked you: is this your experience also, or is your experience different? Did the Transmen you listened to give concrete examples of being fetishized by Transensual Femmes, or were they talking about a belief that only a straight woman could love them properly without fetishizing them?

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

This thread is for transensual femmes as well as SOFFAs. I am a SOFFA. A transensual butch could be a SOFFA. I think the discussion should be for all who love and support gender variant people.

Of course you are, honey; all of us who are either partners or supporters can call ourselves SOFFAs. *kinda puzzled; you already knew that, right?* I'm not sure why you feel left out of this thread, why you need to say out loud that you belong here. This thread was started for everyone who is an ally of some kind or a partner of anyone who is Transsexual.

I repeat to you, there is no need for you to take on a label that you don't feel comfortable with. Other people don't have the right to pigeonhole you for easy identification by slapping the Transensual Femme label on you. You choose what makes you comfortable, what fits right for you.

Not only are there Transensual Butches--I noticed you mentioned that in another post--but I am married to one. I would NEVER in a million years say that Gryph "fetishizes" any of his past partners, whether they were Butches, Transmen, or Transwomen. I will say that he sees who a person is and who a person can be, and offers his support for their journey.

In that, I think he is no different from the majority of us who partner with Transpeople. I think that is something the majority of us all can do, and are doing, no matter what our labels might be. You might choose a different way to describe yourself than I do, or than he does, but in the end we are more alike than different, and what matters is who and how we love, rather than what people call us.

[Jess]

OK. I am remiss in my queerspeak. I have been around for years and have seen the term SOFFA but never knew what it stood for.

Someone toss and old dog a bone here?
Thanks.

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by Jess

OK. I am remiss in my queerspeak. I have been around for years and have seen the term SOFFA but never knew what it stood for.

Someone toss and old dog a bone here?
Thanks.

Significant Others, Friends, Family and Allies.

[Jess]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

Significant Others, Friends, Family and Allies.

Thank you kindly!

[Soft*Silver]

you know, I F**king hate labels. I come from a time when the word LESBIAN wasnt even spoken out loud and now we are cyberbating over what we should call ourselves when we look in a mirror.

I am an old crow. Silver hair and wrinkles. I have seen alot happen over my 5+ decades in the rainbow culture. This generation of LGBTQ is going to go down in history/herstory as the one who out-defined themselves. This generation is so out, that they need to cloak their visibility (an oxi-moron, I know) with words embodied with massive power, so the labels are minutely defined. These labels then begin to look like carefully cut precious diamonds. Such value, such worth...so priceless are these labels....that we will gnash and tear apart each selection so that the evolution of the labels will be true to who we are..individually and as a rainbow culture.

well, go right ahead. But dont rain on my parade while you do this.

I am a femme, in a relationship with someone who considers himself TG moving to FtM. When he is done transitioning and living fully as the male he is, we will be living a heterosexual lifestyle.

He has it easy with labels. I, on the other hand, do not feel so lucky. I am a lesbian who has been told I should call myself queer. I just hate that word. Its fine for the young ones to use it, but it doesnt seem to go all that well with my cane and flat shoes. You should have seen my family when I told them the "word of the day" for me is queer. Their eyes bugged out. Somehow Aunt Bea doesnt look like a queer...lol. When my daughter is asked what I am, she simply says "mom"...sometimes we forget the answer isnt always in the direction of the question. Sometimes its in the direction of the answer-er.


This is what it boils down to for me. When I go to my gynocologist and she asks me if I am sexually active and I say yes...do I go into the whole damn orgasmic history of me falling in love with a transman?

No. I just say I am.

I came here because its the only thread I have seen on three sites for femmes who are involved with FtM/TG folks. Thats me. THATS who I am. And I need the support of other femmes who are involved with FtM/TG folks. You all can argue till the cows come home over what label needs to pasted on me, while I sit here and wait for someone to start talking about support...and if no one does, then I will just move on....

just my 2cents worth...