It's Time to Boycott Arizona

[Jess]

Originally Posted by June

Even when I have traveled abroad, I have not been asked to show my ID when using my Debit or Visa cards. And yet, I have (several times) been in line behind a person of color here in the US and they are asked to show their ID, and, huh. I am not asked.

I insist they ask for purpose of verification. Why else sign the back?
Going through customs when traveling from country to country is not the same to me as traveling from one neighborhood to another in the state you live in.

Again, in foreign countries, you go in showing your ID. You don't go in via the back of a van.

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by Jess

I see your point. I will also add that not every single illegal immigrant is here to send money back to their poor family. My entire argument is for those who aren't.

Anyone who approaches the US Embassy with a valid case to be a refugee is granted immunity. It's just what we do.

I'm not sure this is true or, at least, that what the Embassy deems as being 'valid' is the same as what you or I or an immigrant might see it. I just don't think it's that easy.

I think we ( in general) wish to think the best of anyone coming here for a "new beginning/ second chance". It is not always the case. Read: 9/11

Some of those guys somehow got valid pilots licenses. How does that shit happen? How do we document folks we slide through?

Not being in a border state struggling with such intimate issues, it is hard for me to be very compassionate. I try, but I also try to be compassionate for the folks who died at the hands of terrorists who were able to take charge of our planes. Ya know? It's a very precarious place to be in judging which is more humane. Asking for papers.. or assuming the good.

I understand your point. No one wants another 9/11. I'm not saying that no one should try to document folks. I disagree with the legalization of racial profiling, which is what this mess boils down to.

[Soon]

As a privileged (middle class, educated) white woman, I am even hassled at the USA border to go into your country to visit my husband. Oh my, the things they ask just to make sure I am not going to steal all of the USA's precious benefits and stay illegally. (He does not have the same level of interrogation--by any means--when crossing into Canada).

I cannot imagine what it would be like just to be targeted (once I am allowed admittance) to show papers based on my skin colour (going out to dinner/movies whatever!)...and that IS what would happen if I wasn't white. If my husband lived in Arizona, and I wasn't white, they could possibly stop me and ask for my papers solely based on my appearance and detain me until it was determined that I was not there illegally.


And, when I do visit, no, I do not carry documentation at all times. I cannot imagine the fear of people (visitors, residents, citizens!) who are not white who MUST carry the proper documents at ALL TIMES!

[Jess]

The problem this country has in keeping track of folks is the many routes taken to enter. I have yet to hear of any American traveling into another country without passport through a sideways manner and then wonder why they got busted.

[UofMfan]

Originally Posted by Jess

I see your point. I will also add that not every single illegal immigrant is here to send money back to their poor family. My entire argument is for those who aren't.

Anyone who approaches the US Embassy with a valid case to be a refugee is granted immunity. It's just what we do.

I think we ( in general) wish to think the best of anyone coming here for a "new beginning/ second chance". It is not always the case. Read: 9/11

Some of those guys somehow got valid pilots licenses. How does that shit happen? How do we document folks we slide through?

Not being in a border state struggling with such intimate issues, it is hard for me to be very compassionate. I try, but I also try to be compassionate for the folks who died at the hands of terrorists who were able to take charge of our planes. Ya know? It's a very precarious place to be in judging which is more humane. Asking for papers.. or assuming the good.

Anyone who approaches the US Embassy with a valid case to be a refugee is granted immunity. It's just what we do.

No, this is not what "we" do. If you like I can direct you to plenty of valid sources that would rebuttal that statement.

I think we ( in general) wish to think the best of anyone coming here for a "new beginning/ second chance". It is not always the case. Read: 9/11

Some of those guys somehow got valid pilots licenses. How does that shit happen? How do we document folks we slide through?

Those "guys" got in to the US legally. Imagine that! And they got into the US legally even after the 1996 law which was a freaking joke!

They got pilot licenses because they passed the requirements to be pilots, they were not required to see if they were terrorists. That was the job of the CIA and FBI, at which they failed miserably, but that is a whole other thread.

Anthony McVeigh, I am sure you have heard of him, he is a terrorist and an US born citizen, go figure!

Ya know? It's a very precarious place to be in judging which is more humane. Asking for papers.. or assuming the good.

Again, had those terrorist been asked papers they would have shown they were legal US residents, so what is your point?

To bring 911 into this conversation is ridiculous. It is what the Bush administration and Republicans tried to do for 8 years and look where that got us.

Facts, and statistics show that most, if not all undocumented immigrants come to the US just for the very fact Gemme mentioned.

Few immigrants, legal or undocumented are terrorists. I have facts to back that statement.

[Gemme]

Jess, I think what UofMfan is saying is that the showing of papers at customs is fine and expected, but just driving down the road? When at the grocery store or pumping gas? Not so much. This would focus attention on all people that 'look' like they 'might' be illegal with no regard to location.

[UofMfan]

Originally Posted by Jess

The problem this country has in keeping track of folks is the many routes taken to enter. I have yet to hear of any American traveling into another country without passport through a sideways manner and then wonder why they got busted.

Just because you haven't heard it it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

And ask yourself, why would any US citizen want to go into another country through the back door when they can go into virtually any country just with their passports, no visa, nothing?

This is not the same for those who want to enter the US. This is a privilege that few have. Never take it for granted.

[Jess]

Originally Posted by HowSoonIsNow

As a privileged (middle class, educated) white woman, I am even hassled at the USA border to go into your country to visit my husband. Oh my, the things they ask just to make sure I am not going to steal all of the USA's precious benefits and stay illegally. (He does not have the same level of interrogation--by any means--when crossing into Canada).

I cannot imagine what it would be like just to be targeted (once I am allowed admittance) to show papers based on my skin colour (going out to dinner/movies whatever!)...and that IS what would happen if I wasn't white. If my husband lived in Arizona, and I wasn't white, they could possibly stop me and ask for my papers solely based on my appearance and detain me until it was determined that I was not there illegally.


And, when I do visit, no, I do not carry documentation at all times. I cannot imagine the fear of people who are not white who MUST carry the proper documents at ALL TIMES!

"at the border" is the big difference...

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by Jess

The problem this country has in keeping track of folks is the many routes taken to enter. I have yet to hear of any American traveling into another country without passport through a sideways manner and then wonder why they got busted.

I remember quite vividly during the 1960s young american men making a beeline for the Canadian boarder. Many are still there preferring not to come back to be put in prison.

[Soon]

Originally Posted by Jess

"at the border" is the big difference...

Yes, but let's imagine that, once I am passed the border (after the fuckery I experience which is more often than not), and let's imagine my skin colour is not white and my hair is not blonde (which I am sure if it wasn't, the fuckery I experience would be tenfold or more), I would be terrified to not have my papers on me if he resided in Arizona.

As it is, I don't even give a thought to not having ID on me when visiting, but now I am giving it a second thought.

My point is, that, whether a resident, citizen, or visitor, the people who WILL BE targeted are NOT white and do NOT look like me. I would never be asked for papers of residency in that State b/c I don't look like the profile of an illegal resident. But, they say, profiling this is not? And, from what I understand, profiling based on race is illegal?

[apretty]

i don't want to live in north korea, do you?

Originally Posted by Jess

The problem this country has in keeping track of folks is the many routes taken to enter. I have yet to hear of any American traveling into another country without passport through a sideways manner and then wonder why they got busted.

this was pretty big news august, 2009.

Former President Clinton Headed Home from North Korea with Journalists
Clinton Spokesman Says Former President Homebound, with Ling and Lee Onboard.

Former President Bill Clinton ended his surprise trip to North Korea today, bringing home the two Asian-American journalists who had been jailed in the secretive nation, after he helped negotiate their pardons.

Bill Clinton, along with Euna Lee and Laura Ling, touch down at Calif.
Clinton spokesman Matt McKenna verified Tuesday evening that Clinton "has safely left North Korea with Laura Ling and Euna Lee" and was "en route to Los Angeles where Laura and Euna will be reunited with their families."

North Korea's leader Kim Jong-Il today ordered the release of jailed U.S. journalists Laura Ling and Euna Lee through "a special pardon," the country's state-run news agency reported Tuesday.

North Korea's Central News Agency said Clinton took a surprise trip to the country to negotiate Ling and Lee's release apologized for the two female journalists "illegally crossing the border and committing a grave crime against our nation."

Ling and Lee's families said in a joint statement they are "overjoyed by the news of their pardon."

link: http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/Inter...8245688&page=1

[apretty]

Originally Posted by Jess

[/COLOR][/COLOR]

Again, in foreign countries, you go in showing your ID. You don't go in via the back of a van.

wow that's really racist. what back of who's van? so should we target van-drivers? is there a certain type of van, a particular color of van we should be on the look out for? there's lots of mormon van drivers, do you think they want to be stopped and questioned about who they've got riding in their vehicle?

it's utterly irresponsible and misguided to suggest that racism is okay cuz i'll have some papers to show when i'm stopped, the point is that the bill is racist in nature, the bill already divides a fractured community--it stinks of jim crow laws and nazi germany. being white/passing for white doesn't give anyone the okay to ignore racist legislature--bigotry/hate/suspicion hurts everyone, erodes and divides its people.

[MsDemeanor]

Originally Posted by Jess

Anyone who approaches the US Embassy with a valid case to be a refugee is granted immunity. It's just what we do.

I'm on my way out for the evening, but I just had to stop by and laugh my ass off over this comment.....

[apretty]

Originally Posted by Jess

Now.. I will say I am playing Devils Advocate with this, as it seems to be a simple solution and good as hell reason to sue for racial profiling.

i didn't think playing devil's advocate worked out well for you in the past, perhaps it's time to give it a rest when it comes to ANY thread that touches on race? it's disrespectful to 'play' at what many of us are *living*.

and also, forgive my skepticism, i'm having a super hard time thinking your posts are just about 'devil's advocacy' when you've advocated prior for waving the confederate flag as a symbol of southern heritage, and now here, a proponent of showing *papers* and suggesting immigrants arrive to this country, 'unlike americans', by van--that's really awful close to *othering* immigrants and saying they 'swam across', and other derogatory ways that racists refer to mexicans.

[Medusa]

Hey All,

I just wanted to come in here for a bit and gently remind folks that this topic is a heated one, and that there are some high emotions running through this thread. I think that's healthy and appropriate when dealing with political matters that have racist connotations.

I hope we can keep discussing the *issue* and not the person writing about the issue. Let's all make sure that we aren't being personal when addressing someone.

For instance, I think it is perfectly fine for someone to say, "Hey, that thing you said just now was really racist" and give examples of why they feel that way.

I think it is fine for the other person to respond, "Actually no, I don't feel that it's racist and here's why..."

What is not ok, is taking the conversation in a personal direction because other people are trying to participate as well and we want to talk about the *issue* and not JUST people's personal racism. If we need to talk about the racism (and clearly, we do...I think we can do that constructively). Ok?

This isn't a mod, per se, just wanted to make sure we stay on track.

In the immortal words of Ozzy Osborne, "Love you all: You're all fucking mad."

me

[Toughy]

It is my understanding that there are no border checkpoints where you have to show papers in any of the countries that belong to the European Union.............meaning you can go to Germany from France and not be asked for papers.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Jess

What's really interesting to me, is that in the movies... any foreign country official always asks "ve vant to see your PaPers". Is it just here that we aren't supposed to ask?
Perhaps because so many European countries "touch" each other, they are more interested in seeing who is crossing their borders. Perhaps, because we are so, oh, I dunno, separate, we are just supposed to allow anyone in at any time.

If the bottom line is, have your papers in hand when they ask for them then go on your merry way, then what is really the problem?

Now.. I will say I am playing Devils Advocate with this, as it seems to be a simple solution and good as hell reason to sue for racial profiling. IF you have proper documentation and get pulled over because "you are brown".. SUE THE FUCK OUT OF THEM. If by chance, you don't, then damn, maybe you should have paid attention to all this shit. IF you are here and are going through the process, then you will have some proof of that. IF you are here ILLEGALLY and don't have proof you are going through the process, then hmmm.. go home and start over.It's really that simple.

Fully expecting bullshit to fall out of this post. Because it is way too simple. Way too easy to see it for what it is. I say, beat them at their game. It's easy. Have your papers ready to shove ever so politely in their face, whichever state of citizenship you fall into.

So let's say we all go with your idea... Here we are all the browns carrying documentation around so we can *prove* we belong here as much as say.

You do..

Allow me to play devils advocate..

We are both from let's say....


Spain..

I happen to be darker, you happen to have light hair light eyes..

We both don't have our papers.... NONE...

*I* get pulled over, pulled out the car asked for my documentation, you don't get asked nothing cause well you just don't look it... Don't look like the type...

I get detained you sent on your merry way... So while I am detained I get the *special* treatment, kinda like my Ma did..

TADA come to find out, we are from Spain but have been residing here since 72 legally but this one time I forgot to bring the bulks of paperwork with me, and since I did not have THAT on me, now I have to tuck my horrific experience aside and worry about fucking suing?

FUCK THAT!

*You* have no idea what it is like to be pulled over by a cop who is having a bad day Jess.. Why? I am going to assume you are not of color, here is why I am assuming, cause you suggested we just sit back and take it and sue if we don't have documentation..

Really?? I belong here just as much as you do, I should have to be able drive a car without fear, walk the street without being hunted, cause frankly this is what this is, a witch hunt of sorts..

So no your *I am playing devil's advocate* falls a lil on the short side of justice.

Why?

Cause sometimes, some trigger happy joe do gooder thinks he is *Super Avenger* and may decide the day he spots an *illegal* that that *illegal* and his billy club have a date.. Yeah no thanks.... Suing ain't gonna bring Jose Luis Chacon back if he is mortally injured, no amount of fucking money is gonna bring that family their boy back, or brother, or husband.. If you are naive and think that won't happen, lemme tell you I laugh cause it happens now... *I* know...

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Gemme

Any time someone who is not a politician or person of influence says that, they bring the men with the white jackets.

I think about this so much. How thin the line is...if there is one at all...between being a religious zealot and being incredibly mentally ill.

Originally Posted by HowSoonIsNow

Iowa candidate: Implant microchips into immigrants in country illegally

OMG. People are crazy.

Originally Posted by Jess

What's really interesting to me, is that in the movies... any foreign country official always asks "ve vant to see your PaPers". Is it just here that we aren't supposed to ask?
Perhaps because so many European countries "touch" each other, they are more interested in seeing who is crossing their borders. Perhaps, because we are so, oh, I dunno, separate, we are just supposed to allow anyone in at any time.

If the bottom line is, have your papers in hand when they ask for them then go on your merry way, then what is really the problem?

Now.. I will say I am playing Devils Advocate with this, as it seems to be a simple solution and good as hell reason to sue for racial profiling. IF you have proper documentation and get pulled over because "you are brown".. SUE THE FUCK OUT OF THEM. If by chance, you don't, then damn, maybe you should have paid attention to all this shit. IF you are here and are going through the process, then you will have some proof of that. IF you are here ILLEGALLY and don't have proof you are going through the process, then hmmm.. go home and start over.It's really that simple.

Fully expecting bullshit to fall out of this post. Because it is way too simple. Way too easy to see it for what it is. I say, beat them at their game. It's easy. Have your papers ready to shove ever so politely in their face, whichever state of citizenship you fall into.

I get what you are saying, but those movies were about Nazi Germany, the DDR and the USSR. Fascist countries. I don't want us to be that.

For me, I want the United States of America to welcome immigrants however they get here. No one would leave their home to risk death to get here if they did not really want and need a new life. The only people who have the right to complain in my book are the actual Native Americans.

When I was a kid in Argentina, I was a total space cadet and forgot my papers a lot. My parents were a wreck. It was a huge deal. Kids are often the ones targeted. What if Christie's son were in that situation and forgot his papers and got carted off to some camp and you could not find him. Can you imagine? This is what happens to people.

Originally Posted by Jess

I used the "in the movies" statement to stress a point. Most other countries do ask for some sort of ID. Most folks who travel to the UK for example, go through customs. They show their ID/ reason for being there and move on. Folks aren't crawling in through tunnels. Does that make any sense at all?

To get to the UK by tunnel you would need truly heavy equipment

Yes, there is immigration, but you don't get asked for papers on the street. Different issue.

Originally Posted by Jess

I see your point. I will also add that not every single illegal immigrant is here to send money back to their poor family. My entire argument is for those who aren't.

Anyone who approaches the US Embassy with a valid case to be a refugee is granted immunity. It's just what we do.

I think we ( in general) wish to think the best of anyone coming here for a "new beginning/ second chance". It is not always the case. Read: 9/11

Some of those guys somehow got valid pilots licenses. How does that shit happen? How do we document folks we slide through?

Not being in a border state struggling with such intimate issues, it is hard for me to be very compassionate. I try, but I also try to be compassionate for the folks who died at the hands of terrorists who were able to take charge of our planes. Ya know? It's a very precarious place to be in judging which is more humane. Asking for papers.. or assuming the good.

I have a friend who was here in the US as a refugee from Brazil for being persecuted for being Gay.

Fred Phelps and his gang went to count so that people who were here in the US under the same refugee status as this young artist would all be deported. He is in hiding now, I have no idea how to see him. I can only imagine how scared he is.

The US is actually very picky about who they give asylum to.

The people who bombed the towers came here legally and stayed longer, they did not come over a border illegally.

If this is about keeping us safe, why are we only worried about immigrants with darker skin? Why not Canadians, the Irish.....

Think about how bad things would have to be for you to leave your home, and walk with your family with only the things you can carry for thousands of miles, across international borders, mountains, deserts and rivers to get somewhere you can be safe and be a part of the great "American" dream and you find out the US is changing into a Fascist Police State...and that there will never be that dream for you. There will never be a fresh new start. Why? Because your skin is darker.

Will you really think about it? I am so not bashing you or arguing for the sake or argument. You seem compassionate about so many things, can you really say you feel none here?

[theoddz]

This may be a dumb question, but if there's anyone here with legal background....

Could asking someone to produce "papers", PERIOD, in this country, be considered unconstitutional by way of being an "illegal search"??

It just doesn't sound like it should be legally permitted, Constitutionally speaking.

~Theo~

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by theoddz

This may be a dumb question, but if there's anyone here with legal background....

Could asking someone to produce "papers", PERIOD, in this country, be considered unconstitutional by way of being an "illegal search"??

It just doesn't sound like it should be legally permitted, Constitutionally speaking.

~Theo~

I heard on NPR last night that even Karl Rove and Jeb Bush thinks it is unconstitutional, the ACLU is bringing suit as well as many others.