It's Time to Boycott Arizona

[Jess]

What's really interesting to me, is that in the movies... any foreign country official always asks "ve vant to see your PaPers". Is it just here that we aren't supposed to ask?
Perhaps because so many European countries "touch" each other, they are more interested in seeing who is crossing their borders. Perhaps, because we are so, oh, I dunno, separate, we are just supposed to allow anyone in at any time.

If the bottom line is, have your papers in hand when they ask for them then go on your merry way, then what is really the problem?

Now.. I will say I am playing Devils Advocate with this, as it seems to be a simple solution and good as hell reason to sue for racial profiling. IF you have proper documentation and get pulled over because "you are brown".. SUE THE FUCK OUT OF THEM. If by chance, you don't, then damn, maybe you should have paid attention to all this shit. IF you are here and are going through the process, then you will have some proof of that. IF you are here ILLEGALLY and don't have proof you are going through the process, then hmmm.. go home and start over.It's really that simple.

Fully expecting bullshit to fall out of this post. Because it is way too simple. Way too easy to see it for what it is. I say, beat them at their game. It's easy. Have your papers ready to shove ever so politely in their face, whichever state of citizenship you fall into.

[UofMfan]

Originally Posted by Jess

What's really interesting to me, is that in the movies... any foreign country official always asks "ve vant to see your PaPers". Is it just here that we aren't supposed to ask?
Perhaps because so many European countries "touch" each other, they are more interested in seeing who is crossing their borders. Perhaps, because we are so, oh, I dunno, separate, we are just supposed to allow anyone in at any time.

If the bottom line is, have your papers in hand when they ask for them then go on your merry way, then what is really the problem?

Now.. I will say I am playing Devils Advocate with this, as it seems to be a simple solution and good as hell reason to sue for racial profiling. IF you have proper documentation and get pulled over because "you are brown".. SUE THE FUCK OUT OF THEM. If by chance, you don't, then damn, maybe you should have paid attention to all this shit. IF you are here and are going through the process, then you will have some proof of that. IF you are here ILLEGALLY and don't have proof you are going through the process, then hmmm.. go home and start over.It's really that simple.

Fully expecting bullshit to fall out of this post. Because it is way too simple. Way too easy to see it for what it is. I say, beat them at their game. It's easy. Have your papers ready to shove ever so politely in their face, whichever state of citizenship you fall into.

It happens in the movies and communist countries. It happened a lot in Nazi Germany, if I remember my history correctly.

A free country, or at least one that prides itself in being one, does not asks for such papers.

This is not bullshit, this is my opinion.

[Soon]

Pima County Sheriff Calls Arizona Law "Stupid," Will Not Enforce It (VIDEO)

Pima County Sheriff Clarence Dupnik, who I am assuming is something of a master of the "complex and demanding craft of policing" seeing as how he's been a policeman for over five decades, begs to differ. Per Amanda Terkel, Dupnik called the law "racist" and "disgusting" and "stupid" and, in his "nuanced judgment" could not be enforced without mandatory racial profiling. Dupnik's reckoning of the legal issue is that he's just as likely to be sued for racial profiling as he is for not doing enough racial profiling, so he's standing pat, and will not enforce the new law.

[WATCH]

[Jess]

Originally Posted by UofMfan

It happens in the movies and communist countries. It happened a lot in Nazi Germany, if I remember my history correctly.

A free country, or at least one that prides itself in being one, does not asks for such papers.

This is not bullshit, this is my opinion.

I used the "in the movies" statement to stress a point. Most other countries do ask for some sort of ID. Most folks who travel to the UK for example, go through customs. They show their ID/ reason for being there and move on. Folks aren't crawling in through tunnels. Does that make any sense at all?

[UofMfan]

Originally Posted by Jess

I used the "in the movies" statement to stress a point. Most other countries do ask for some sort of ID. Most folks who travel to the UK for example, go through customs. They show their ID/ reason for being there and move on. Folks aren't crawling in through tunnels. Does that make any sense at all?

If you travel to another country you have to go through immigration, and yes, it makes sense in that setting. When you go through customs you have to show them your luggage. But how can you equate that to being asked for papers just because you look "illegal" at any time, anywhere?

I am not following your train of thought.

No, most other countries don't ask you for some ID just because they can while you are say, walking, driving, having a cup of coffee, or enjoying the sights at the Eiffel Tower. No, they don't.

The setting you speak of is completely different than what the Arizona law now allows. Do you follow me?

[Jess]

Originally Posted by UofMfan

If you travel to another country you have to go through immigration, and yes, it makes sense in that setting. When you go through customs you have to show them your luggage. But how can you equate that to being asked for papers just because you look "illegal" at any time, anywhere?

I am not following your train of thought.
My train of thought is that in most other countries.. tunnels aren't dug for folks to burrow under. They DO go through customs.

No, most other countries don't ask you for some ID just because they can while you are say, walking, driving, having a cup of coffee, or enjoying the sights at the Eiffel Tower. No, they don't.


Because most have seen them when you walk through customs.


The setting you speak of is completely different than what the Arizona law now allows. Do you follow me?

Yes, i do follow. Do you follow me?

[Jess]

Originally Posted by June

Even when I have traveled abroad, I have not been asked to show my ID when using my Debit or Visa cards. And yet, I have (several times) been in line behind a person of color here in the US and they are asked to show their ID, and, huh. I am not asked.

I insist they ask for purpose of verification. Why else sign the back?
Going through customs when traveling from country to country is not the same to me as traveling from one neighborhood to another in the state you live in.

Again, in foreign countries, you go in showing your ID. You don't go in via the back of a van.

[Jess]

The problem this country has in keeping track of folks is the many routes taken to enter. I have yet to hear of any American traveling into another country without passport through a sideways manner and then wonder why they got busted.

[UofMfan]

Originally Posted by Jess

The problem this country has in keeping track of folks is the many routes taken to enter. I have yet to hear of any American traveling into another country without passport through a sideways manner and then wonder why they got busted.

Just because you haven't heard it it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

And ask yourself, why would any US citizen want to go into another country through the back door when they can go into virtually any country just with their passports, no visa, nothing?

This is not the same for those who want to enter the US. This is a privilege that few have. Never take it for granted.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by Jess

The problem this country has in keeping track of folks is the many routes taken to enter. I have yet to hear of any American traveling into another country without passport through a sideways manner and then wonder why they got busted.

I remember quite vividly during the 1960s young american men making a beeline for the Canadian boarder. Many are still there preferring not to come back to be put in prison.

[apretty]

i don't want to live in north korea, do you?

Originally Posted by Jess

The problem this country has in keeping track of folks is the many routes taken to enter. I have yet to hear of any American traveling into another country without passport through a sideways manner and then wonder why they got busted.

this was pretty big news august, 2009.

Former President Clinton Headed Home from North Korea with Journalists
Clinton Spokesman Says Former President Homebound, with Ling and Lee Onboard.

Former President Bill Clinton ended his surprise trip to North Korea today, bringing home the two Asian-American journalists who had been jailed in the secretive nation, after he helped negotiate their pardons.

Bill Clinton, along with Euna Lee and Laura Ling, touch down at Calif.
Clinton spokesman Matt McKenna verified Tuesday evening that Clinton "has safely left North Korea with Laura Ling and Euna Lee" and was "en route to Los Angeles where Laura and Euna will be reunited with their families."

North Korea's leader Kim Jong-Il today ordered the release of jailed U.S. journalists Laura Ling and Euna Lee through "a special pardon," the country's state-run news agency reported Tuesday.

North Korea's Central News Agency said Clinton took a surprise trip to the country to negotiate Ling and Lee's release apologized for the two female journalists "illegally crossing the border and committing a grave crime against our nation."

Ling and Lee's families said in a joint statement they are "overjoyed by the news of their pardon."

link: http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/Inter...8245688&page=1

[apretty]

Originally Posted by Jess

[/COLOR][/COLOR]

Again, in foreign countries, you go in showing your ID. You don't go in via the back of a van.

wow that's really racist. what back of who's van? so should we target van-drivers? is there a certain type of van, a particular color of van we should be on the look out for? there's lots of mormon van drivers, do you think they want to be stopped and questioned about who they've got riding in their vehicle?

it's utterly irresponsible and misguided to suggest that racism is okay cuz i'll have some papers to show when i'm stopped, the point is that the bill is racist in nature, the bill already divides a fractured community--it stinks of jim crow laws and nazi germany. being white/passing for white doesn't give anyone the okay to ignore racist legislature--bigotry/hate/suspicion hurts everyone, erodes and divides its people.

[Soon]

As a privileged (middle class, educated) white woman, I am even hassled at the USA border to go into your country to visit my husband. Oh my, the things they ask just to make sure I am not going to steal all of the USA's precious benefits and stay illegally. (He does not have the same level of interrogation--by any means--when crossing into Canada).

I cannot imagine what it would be like just to be targeted (once I am allowed admittance) to show papers based on my skin colour (going out to dinner/movies whatever!)...and that IS what would happen if I wasn't white. If my husband lived in Arizona, and I wasn't white, they could possibly stop me and ask for my papers solely based on my appearance and detain me until it was determined that I was not there illegally.


And, when I do visit, no, I do not carry documentation at all times. I cannot imagine the fear of people (visitors, residents, citizens!) who are not white who MUST carry the proper documents at ALL TIMES!

[Jess]

Originally Posted by HowSoonIsNow

As a privileged (middle class, educated) white woman, I am even hassled at the USA border to go into your country to visit my husband. Oh my, the things they ask just to make sure I am not going to steal all of the USA's precious benefits and stay illegally. (He does not have the same level of interrogation--by any means--when crossing into Canada).

I cannot imagine what it would be like just to be targeted (once I am allowed admittance) to show papers based on my skin colour (going out to dinner/movies whatever!)...and that IS what would happen if I wasn't white. If my husband lived in Arizona, and I wasn't white, they could possibly stop me and ask for my papers solely based on my appearance and detain me until it was determined that I was not there illegally.


And, when I do visit, no, I do not carry documentation at all times. I cannot imagine the fear of people who are not white who MUST carry the proper documents at ALL TIMES!

"at the border" is the big difference...

[Soon]

Originally Posted by Jess

"at the border" is the big difference...

Yes, but let's imagine that, once I am passed the border (after the fuckery I experience which is more often than not), and let's imagine my skin colour is not white and my hair is not blonde (which I am sure if it wasn't, the fuckery I experience would be tenfold or more), I would be terrified to not have my papers on me if he resided in Arizona.

As it is, I don't even give a thought to not having ID on me when visiting, but now I am giving it a second thought.

My point is, that, whether a resident, citizen, or visitor, the people who WILL BE targeted are NOT white and do NOT look like me. I would never be asked for papers of residency in that State b/c I don't look like the profile of an illegal resident. But, they say, profiling this is not? And, from what I understand, profiling based on race is illegal?

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by Jess

What's really interesting to me, is that in the movies... any foreign country official always asks "ve vant to see your PaPers". Is it just here that we aren't supposed to ask?
Perhaps because so many European countries "touch" each other, they are more interested in seeing who is crossing their borders. Perhaps, because we are so, oh, I dunno, separate, we are just supposed to allow anyone in at any time.

If the bottom line is, have your papers in hand when they ask for them then go on your merry way, then what is really the problem?

Now.. I will say I am playing Devils Advocate with this, as it seems to be a simple solution and good as hell reason to sue for racial profiling. IF you have proper documentation and get pulled over because "you are brown".. SUE THE FUCK OUT OF THEM. If by chance, you don't, then damn, maybe you should have paid attention to all this shit. IF you are here and are going through the process, then you will have some proof of that. IF you are here ILLEGALLY and don't have proof you are going through the process, then hmmm.. go home and start over.It's really that simple.

Fully expecting bullshit to fall out of this post. Because it is way too simple. Way too easy to see it for what it is. I say, beat them at their game. It's easy. Have your papers ready to shove ever so politely in their face, whichever state of citizenship you fall into.

I see your reasoning. I'll try to keep things simple also. Those who are in this country are still paying taxes, etc. So, really, it's no skin off my teeth if they are here legally or not.

However, if someone has come here illegally and is trying to save money to send back home so that the rest of the family can come over here, legally, then it's not just a simple case of 'send 'em back'. Very often, they've nearly died getting here to take advantage of what so many take for granted. I could not, with my twisted sense of morality, do that to someone. Humans have a right to live and, if one illegal person is sent back, it affects not only them but their whole family...not to mention they'll probably get their ass kicked in the process of being 'sent back' (like defective merchandise, no?) or even killed. I'm not down with that.

[Jess]

Originally Posted by Gemme

I see your reasoning. I'll try to keep things simple also. Those who are in this country are still paying taxes, etc. So, really, it's no skin off my teeth if they are here legally or not.

However, if someone has come here illegally and is trying to save money to send back home so that the rest of the family can come over here, legally, then it's not just a simple case of 'send 'em back'. Very often, they've nearly died getting here to take advantage of what so many take for granted. I could not, with my twisted sense of morality, do that to someone. Humans have a right to live and, if one illegal person is sent back, it affects not only them but their whole family...not to mention they'll probably get their ass kicked in the process of being 'sent back' (like defective merchandise, no?) or even killed. I'm not down with that.

I see your point. I will also add that not every single illegal immigrant is here to send money back to their poor family. My entire argument is for those who aren't.

Anyone who approaches the US Embassy with a valid case to be a refugee is granted immunity. It's just what we do.

I think we ( in general) wish to think the best of anyone coming here for a "new beginning/ second chance". It is not always the case. Read: 9/11

Some of those guys somehow got valid pilots licenses. How does that shit happen? How do we document folks we slide through?

Not being in a border state struggling with such intimate issues, it is hard for me to be very compassionate. I try, but I also try to be compassionate for the folks who died at the hands of terrorists who were able to take charge of our planes. Ya know? It's a very precarious place to be in judging which is more humane. Asking for papers.. or assuming the good.

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by Jess

I see your point. I will also add that not every single illegal immigrant is here to send money back to their poor family. My entire argument is for those who aren't.

Anyone who approaches the US Embassy with a valid case to be a refugee is granted immunity. It's just what we do.

I'm not sure this is true or, at least, that what the Embassy deems as being 'valid' is the same as what you or I or an immigrant might see it. I just don't think it's that easy.

I think we ( in general) wish to think the best of anyone coming here for a "new beginning/ second chance". It is not always the case. Read: 9/11

Some of those guys somehow got valid pilots licenses. How does that shit happen? How do we document folks we slide through?

Not being in a border state struggling with such intimate issues, it is hard for me to be very compassionate. I try, but I also try to be compassionate for the folks who died at the hands of terrorists who were able to take charge of our planes. Ya know? It's a very precarious place to be in judging which is more humane. Asking for papers.. or assuming the good.

I understand your point. No one wants another 9/11. I'm not saying that no one should try to document folks. I disagree with the legalization of racial profiling, which is what this mess boils down to.

[Gemme]

Jess, I think what UofMfan is saying is that the showing of papers at customs is fine and expected, but just driving down the road? When at the grocery store or pumping gas? Not so much. This would focus attention on all people that 'look' like they 'might' be illegal with no regard to location.

[UofMfan]

Originally Posted by Jess

I see your point. I will also add that not every single illegal immigrant is here to send money back to their poor family. My entire argument is for those who aren't.

Anyone who approaches the US Embassy with a valid case to be a refugee is granted immunity. It's just what we do.

I think we ( in general) wish to think the best of anyone coming here for a "new beginning/ second chance". It is not always the case. Read: 9/11

Some of those guys somehow got valid pilots licenses. How does that shit happen? How do we document folks we slide through?

Not being in a border state struggling with such intimate issues, it is hard for me to be very compassionate. I try, but I also try to be compassionate for the folks who died at the hands of terrorists who were able to take charge of our planes. Ya know? It's a very precarious place to be in judging which is more humane. Asking for papers.. or assuming the good.

Anyone who approaches the US Embassy with a valid case to be a refugee is granted immunity. It's just what we do.

No, this is not what "we" do. If you like I can direct you to plenty of valid sources that would rebuttal that statement.

I think we ( in general) wish to think the best of anyone coming here for a "new beginning/ second chance". It is not always the case. Read: 9/11

Some of those guys somehow got valid pilots licenses. How does that shit happen? How do we document folks we slide through?

Those "guys" got in to the US legally. Imagine that! And they got into the US legally even after the 1996 law which was a freaking joke!

They got pilot licenses because they passed the requirements to be pilots, they were not required to see if they were terrorists. That was the job of the CIA and FBI, at which they failed miserably, but that is a whole other thread.

Anthony McVeigh, I am sure you have heard of him, he is a terrorist and an US born citizen, go figure!

Ya know? It's a very precarious place to be in judging which is more humane. Asking for papers.. or assuming the good.

Again, had those terrorist been asked papers they would have shown they were legal US residents, so what is your point?

To bring 911 into this conversation is ridiculous. It is what the Bush administration and Republicans tried to do for 8 years and look where that got us.

Facts, and statistics show that most, if not all undocumented immigrants come to the US just for the very fact Gemme mentioned.

Few immigrants, legal or undocumented are terrorists. I have facts to back that statement.