Cause & Affect: A Femme's Influence On The Friendships Between Butches and Transmen

[amiyesiam]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

good points martina.

lets talk about that. let's be brave.

why would anyone NOT honor chosen pronouns?

why? to cut. to hurt. to demean. to humiliate.

how can we encourage each other to honor them? whatever they are?

this is not rocket science. It is not ok to be mean. (period, no comma, no and, no except, no but.) Just one sentence: It is not ok to be mean.

how can we honor each other in that process?

Ya know I just gotta vent
I am not smarter or wiser or better than anyone else
WAKE UP people
sometimes a body just has to shut up
close their mouths
keep their thoughts to themselves
we can not read others minds
we don't know their intent
AND if you think you do know, question your own god complex
humans are complex
sometimes we don't even know WHY we do the things we do
how do we honor each other?
my gosh be nice
accept others just like you want to be accepted
assume the best about each other not the worst

[blush]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

It's not a trap..

It's a hard conversation, and as much as we don't like it..

We femme's do perpetuate what may or may not happen..

I don't think we aren't allowed opinions, so can I have some clarification on that?


It does happen...

I don't think we are super imposing all responsibilities on femme's alone.

Yes I gotta be honest we do have some influence

Can you please help me out to understand why you feel this may be a trap?

Please?

From my "me" place, it is very difficult (but very necessary) for me NOT to voice my opinion in transmen/butch threads because I'm around butches/transmen all the time. I'm really bad at keeping my mouth shut in transmen/butch threads. Even when I should, and I know I should, because the discussion isn't about me. It feels unnatural because Goof and I chat it up about everything, and I feel very much a part of his world. So I have a hard time differentiating when a butch/transperson forum discussion doesn't need my femme perspective. It frustrates me. My opinion comment in my first post was a reflection of those feelings.

So the "trap" for me is being asked to give counsel about the relationship between the butch community and transmen community yet maintaining a respectful distant and not speaking for that community.

Thanks for being patient with me.

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by blush

From my "me" place, it is very difficult (but very necessary) for me NOT to voice my opinion in transmen/butch threads because I'm around butches/transmen all the time. I'm really bad at keeping my mouth shut in transmen/butch threads. Even when I should, and I know I should, because the discussion isn't about me. It feels unnatural because Goof and I chat it up about everything, and I feel very much a part of his world. So I have a hard time differentiating when a butch/transperson forum discussion doesn't need my femme perspective. It frustrates me. My opinion comment in my first post was a reflection of those feelings.

So the "trap" for me is being asked to give counsel about the relationship between the butch community and transmen community yet maintaining a respectful distant and not speaking for that community.

Thanks for being patient with me.

I wish you'd give commentary about a femme perspective. Oh please.

[blush]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

This would be a great place to be able to do that! I get it Grant and I have convos about this all the time...

I hope we can have the conversations I really do. It doesn't have to be about *their* perspective....

This space can be about how we see it or experience it, without mucking up the other thread.

Make sense?

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

I wish you'd give commentary about a femme perspective. Oh please.

Thanks for the feedback, I think I understand the intent of the thread more now.

Thinking about my femme perspective...

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by blush

From my "me" place, it is very difficult (but very necessary) for me NOT to voice my opinion in transmen/butch threads because I'm around butches/transmen all the time. I'm really bad at keeping my mouth shut in transmen/butch threads. Even when I should, and I know I should, because the discussion isn't about me. It feels unnatural because Goof and I chat it up about everything, and I feel very much a part of his world. So I have a hard time differentiating when a butch/transperson forum discussion doesn't need my femme perspective. It frustrates me. My opinion comment in my first post was a reflection of those feelings.

So the "trap" for me is being asked to give counsel about the relationship between the butch community and transmen community yet maintaining a respectful distant and not speaking for that community.

Thanks for being patient with me.

This would be a great place to be able to do that! I get it Grant and I have convos about this all the time...

I hope we can have the conversations I really do. It doesn't have to be about *their* perspective....

This space can be about how we see it or experience it, without mucking up the other thread.

Make sense?

[Arwen]

Originally Posted by blush

So the "trap" for me is being asked to give counsel about the relationship between the butch community and transmen community yet maintaining a respectful distant and not speaking for that community.

Thanks for being patient with me.

I so get this, blush. I think that is what I felt too. I also see that there is a bigger (or maybe smaller) picture here in the idea of femmes who speak on behalf of one group or another. Why do we do that? Is it a protective thing? I know for me it can be.

Because I know and love transmen, I get really riled at perceived slights. And, that's not mine to get riled over...or is it? Here is where I get really wishy-washy.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I don't know if it is a protective thing, cause lemme tell you there are a few times I wanted to go in and drag Grant out of a thread cause of how I felt.

My dynamics with him say I can, I don't because his voice is strong and important and should be heard

Just like anyone elses...

I don't need to go in and mother and cater and fawn over anyone, can I be an ally

FUCK yes..

Can I do it in a way that is productive and not so oogey?

Yes

[blush]

Originally Posted by Arwen

I so get this, blush. I think that is what I felt too. I also see that there is a bigger (or maybe smaller) picture here in the idea of femmes who speak on behalf of one group or another. Why do we do that? Is it a protective thing? I know for me it can be.

Because I know and love transmen, I get really riled at perceived slights. And, that's not mine to get riled over...or is it? Here is where I get really wishy-washy.

Yeah, I'm rabidly protective. Oh, the posts I've started and deleted...and the ones I should have deleted but posted instead...

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

So let's grab this topic by the balls and discuss it.

I have experienced it and seen it the one minute we date a butch then we date a transperson.

We are bitter after the break up and we dog the other gender presentation to make us feel good.

Example:

Mariano was so abusive, he would scream in my ear and I would be terrorized cause you know he is on *whispering* T

or

Kelly was so not butch, she wanted me to go down on her YUCK, not like Marianno who is a real mans man.

(Marianno and Kelly are fictional characters)

Here is where I used the wording balls, and lemme tell you I had to go find my proverbial huevos for me to even start this thread, cause I am fully aware when I started the thread I knew that I may have my ass handed to me. I am also fully aware my loud mouth and my loud opinions and well that makes me unpopular and to be honest A LOT of assumptions are made about me. To be honest I don't even know what to say to you than be honest, I can't believe I am having to defend myself but I will.

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

So I gotta ask

WTF with the balls comment?

This is what I said and here is why.

We ain't tight....

I don't like undertones, I don't like how someone uses my kid to make convo with me, I don't like manipulation, Sam and I aren't friendly like that.

Originally Posted by Sam

Topic by the balls, squeeze the topic. nothing personal. scooting out of here.

BTW the part I just highlited Sam added after I commented

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I am gonna clean my answer up because I don't like giving June a headache..

So lemme make it clear ok?

You and I, ain't homies, we ain't tight...

So, those kinda of comments, keep em to yourself a'ight?

Thank you for listening.

I thought I was clear about how I felt with his over familiarity.

Originally Posted by Sam

No need to make anything clear with me.

No actually we never have/had been friends.

Its a public thread and i will make comments.

I dont like stereotyping, so i commented. I did not target you, just the words you used.

and im not listening, im reading!

I was NOT stereotyping Sam, I was making it clear we aren't familiar funny though how I get called out for being snarky but Sam does not?

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Thank you for the correction.

You done petting me in the head?

Cause this is what this feels like, you exerting your privi on me

I am not liking it

So please

Back to topic?

I am going to be honest I can't believe that I am having to defend my space, my words, and how I feel..

Thought I do think it is a perfect example of how we as femme's influence things in the long run.

If you need any further explanation for participation can you please pm me, and hand me my ass so that we can continue this.

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by blush

This thread makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand up.

And here's why:
It feels like, once again, we femmes are being held accountable for the community (or lack of community) between butches and transmen. Even though we are repeatedly told we are not a part of male-id'ed/female id'ed butch or transmen communities(yanno, cuz we're femme. We couldn't possibly have an opinion on those communities). Yet now we are going to discuss our influences in these communities. After awhile, it starts to feel like a "gotcha!" It starts to feel like a trap.

So why am I here? Cause I like Super Femme and The Lady Snow. And I'm secretly hoping I'm wrong.

aren't we part of that community by virtue of who we love?

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

aren't we part of that community by virtue of who we love?

desire, fuck, partner with, hang out with, play with, etc etc.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Organicbutch

Play Dates. lol

You realize your idea of play dates and my idea of play dates are probably totally the opposite...

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by Organicbutch

Play Dates. lol