Cause & Affect: A Femme's Influence On The Friendships Between Butches and Transmen

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by blush

This thread makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand up.

And here's why:
It feels like, once again, we femmes are being held accountable for the community (or lack of community) between butches and transmen. Even though we are repeatedly told we are not a part of male-id'ed/female id'ed butch or transmen communities(yanno, cuz we're femme. We couldn't possibly have an opinion on those communities). Yet now we are going to discuss our influences in these communities. After awhile, it starts to feel like a "gotcha!" It starts to feel like a trap.

So why am I here? Cause I like Super Femme and The Lady Snow. And I'm secretly hoping I'm wrong.

It's not a trap..

It's a hard conversation, and as much as we don't like it..

We femme's do perpetuate what may or may not happen..

I don't think we aren't allowed opinions, so can I have some clarification on that?


It does happen...

I don't think we are super imposing all responsibilities on femme's alone.

Yes I gotta be honest we do have some influence

Can you please help me out to understand why you feel this may be a trap?

Please?

[Martina]

i'd like to participate, but i kinda feel like i may be one of the people SF was talking about in the post about speaking for butches and that Snow meant when talking about building fences. i hope i never speak for a butch. i have no idea what it's like to be a butch. But i have gotten embroiled in a number of the discussions re the position of female-identified butches on this site and the other.

i feel like i am speaking from my experience of what i have seen.

i definitely know i am not participating to get the approval of a butch or catch her/hys/his attention.

i imagine that people might think i am one of the people building the fences between the two groups. i know that is not my intent.

Maybe i have spent too much time on chat and heard too many femmes refuse to honor a butch's chosen pronouns of she/her and talk about being a true femme and dating only real butches -- and we all know what that stuff means.

i just got fed up. And i saw a lot of sexism in it. And it bothered me.

i hope i have not built fences. But i just really dislike the sexist and homophobic elements in our culture, and i can't seem to ignore them.

So the effect has been that i have stirred some shit in those threads.

How can i influence people to build bridges? i honestly don't know.

i think calling other femmes on their heteronormative bullshit is a first step. That creates some hostility and resentment between groups.

i don't see myself as a support for any category of people on this site or in the butch-femme community. i really basically stand up when i feel something is unfair or needs to be said.

[SuperFemme]

good points martina.

lets talk about that. let's be brave.

why would anyone NOT honor chosen pronouns?

how can we encourage each other to honor them? whatever they are?

how can we honor each other in that process?

[Arwen]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

There will be a subject/space and all of a sudden a Femme will start speaking and/or translating for a butch/trans person.

Telling the rest of the thread what the butch/trans person really meant and what they intended to say.

I find it very strange when this happens, because there seems to be a lot of gratitude.

In fact I feel kind of shitty for speaking about it right now.

Like my pompoms are gonna burn.

Please don't feel shitty. I'm one of those that does this. I've also taken heat for admitting I'm lazy about pronouns. I chose not to defend myself because a lot was said that was true even though a lot was said that was not true.

I tend to take up for the transguy. Part of that is because I feel like some people put them down for not staying in the role of butch lesbian. Part of that is because I have an over-inflated sense of self-worth and think my opinion matters.

This thing about fences...I can see that.

This thing about it not being my job to foster friendship/community between the transguys and the butches...that was my first response when I read this thread.

Then I went back to the idea of fences. I need to gnaw on that a bit. I want to say that I don't do that, but then again, maybe I do somehow. Hiroshima was my fault too.

I guess, for me, I need to know what does community look like for the transguy and what does it look like for the butch. Is it that different? Is it divided into transguys who fully transition and transguys who don't and transguys who really don't define themselves by what body parts they do or don't have? Is it divided between masculine-id butches and female-id butches and butches who don't give a rat's ass as long as they can be who they are?

How do I as a Femme fit into this? What is my responsibility?

I think that my only responsibility is to work on my own hula hoop and stop speaking for others even if I really do know better then they do what they want to say. (that's self-directed sarcasm for all the Arwen-haters, k?)

I think I need to be friends with and not worry about what others choose to identify as. I am working on not being lazy (even in my own head) about pronouns. I never meant that in a disrespectful way. It was self-deprecating and, for what it's worth, more honest than I guess I should have been.And I have NEVER intentionally disrespected anyone's choice of pronoun. In fact, it's a habit of mine to just ask someone what they want to be called.

I really want to talk more about this idea of fences. Do you really think we (generic) are trying to cut those non-femmes into smaller groups so it's easier to find the ones we are attracted to? Am I understanding you correctly or going off on a wild Arwen tangent?

[blush]

Originally Posted by Arwen

Please don't feel shitty. I'm one of those that does this. I've also taken heat for admitting I'm lazy about pronouns. I chose not to defend myself because a lot was said that was true even though a lot was said that was not true.

This thing about it not being my job to foster friendship/community between the transguys and the butches...that was my first response when I read this thread.

I've taken heat for admitting it's hard sometimes to remember pronouns. It is hard for me to remember pronouns. It's also hard for me to remember names. I still don't know Goof's phone number. Or where my keys are.

I wonder if our beloved butches/transmen would begin a thread about how they could build bridges to improve relationships among our diverse femme contingencies? Or, to put it another way, is this as/more important than healing our own femme community?

[Arwen]

Originally Posted by blush

I've taken heat for admitting it's hard sometimes to remember pronouns. It is hard for me to remember pronouns. It's also hard for me to remember names. I still don't know Goof's phone number. Or where my keys are.

I wonder if our beloved butches/transmen would begin a thread about how they could build bridges to improve relationships among our diverse femme contingencies? Or, to put it another way, is this as/more important than healing our own femme community?

Blanche, I get this. I think, for me, this could be a step in healing our own femme community.

Because...if we are helping to build fences, then in some way, we have to be standing on one side or the other of that fence from one another.

Don't we?

[blush]

Originally Posted by Arwen

Blanche, I get this. I think, for me, this could be a step in healing our own femme community.

Because...if we are helping to build fences, then in some way, we have to be standing on one side or the other of that fence from one another.

Don't we?

Annie, you're right. Good point.

Truly, I'm laughing super hard right now.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by blush

I've taken heat for admitting it's hard sometimes to remember pronouns. It is hard for me to remember pronouns. It's also hard for me to remember names. I still don't know Goof's phone number. Or where my keys are.

I wonder if our beloved butches/transmen would begin a thread about how they could build bridges to improve relationships among our diverse femme contingencies? Or, to put it another way, is this as/more important than healing our own femme community?

I think they will talk about it in the other thread, about how we are influental.

I think it is all tied together, we all are, and how we behave about one another.

[blush]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I think it is all tied together, we all are, and how we behave about one another.

Good point, that is very true.

[MsMerrick]

Originally Posted by blush

I've taken heat for admitting it's hard sometimes to remember pronouns. It is hard for me to remember pronouns. It's also hard for me to remember names. I still don't know Goof's phone number. Or where my keys are.

I wonder if our beloved butches/transmen would begin a thread about how they could build bridges to improve relationships among our diverse femme contingencies? Or, to put it another way, is this as/more important than healing our own femme community?

Exactly ....
I don't believe in taking responsibility for others woes..
I also don't take on responsibility for those that do..

[amiyesiam]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

good points martina.

lets talk about that. let's be brave.

why would anyone NOT honor chosen pronouns?

why? to cut. to hurt. to demean. to humiliate.

how can we encourage each other to honor them? whatever they are?

this is not rocket science. It is not ok to be mean. (period, no comma, no and, no except, no but.) Just one sentence: It is not ok to be mean.

how can we honor each other in that process?

Ya know I just gotta vent
I am not smarter or wiser or better than anyone else
WAKE UP people
sometimes a body just has to shut up
close their mouths
keep their thoughts to themselves
we can not read others minds
we don't know their intent
AND if you think you do know, question your own god complex
humans are complex
sometimes we don't even know WHY we do the things we do
how do we honor each other?
my gosh be nice
accept others just like you want to be accepted
assume the best about each other not the worst

[SuperFemme]

I have a lot I want to say, but my fever is around 102 right now and I am having a hard time forming cognitive thoughts.

My favorite thoughts swirling around in my head right now have to do with hula hoops and assuming the best about people, not the worst.

I think as Femmes we have a better ability to lift each other up when the chips are down.

I want to be clear that everyones voice matters in this conversation. We are all part of this community sans the fences, and are all inter-connected in one way or another. So our voices matter.

I'm going to lay down now, but I'll be back with thoughts on hula hoops and assuming the best tomorrow.

[blush]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

It's not a trap..

It's a hard conversation, and as much as we don't like it..

We femme's do perpetuate what may or may not happen..

I don't think we aren't allowed opinions, so can I have some clarification on that?


It does happen...

I don't think we are super imposing all responsibilities on femme's alone.

Yes I gotta be honest we do have some influence

Can you please help me out to understand why you feel this may be a trap?

Please?

From my "me" place, it is very difficult (but very necessary) for me NOT to voice my opinion in transmen/butch threads because I'm around butches/transmen all the time. I'm really bad at keeping my mouth shut in transmen/butch threads. Even when I should, and I know I should, because the discussion isn't about me. It feels unnatural because Goof and I chat it up about everything, and I feel very much a part of his world. So I have a hard time differentiating when a butch/transperson forum discussion doesn't need my femme perspective. It frustrates me. My opinion comment in my first post was a reflection of those feelings.

So the "trap" for me is being asked to give counsel about the relationship between the butch community and transmen community yet maintaining a respectful distant and not speaking for that community.

Thanks for being patient with me.

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by blush

From my "me" place, it is very difficult (but very necessary) for me NOT to voice my opinion in transmen/butch threads because I'm around butches/transmen all the time. I'm really bad at keeping my mouth shut in transmen/butch threads. Even when I should, and I know I should, because the discussion isn't about me. It feels unnatural because Goof and I chat it up about everything, and I feel very much a part of his world. So I have a hard time differentiating when a butch/transperson forum discussion doesn't need my femme perspective. It frustrates me. My opinion comment in my first post was a reflection of those feelings.

So the "trap" for me is being asked to give counsel about the relationship between the butch community and transmen community yet maintaining a respectful distant and not speaking for that community.

Thanks for being patient with me.

I wish you'd give commentary about a femme perspective. Oh please.

[blush]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

This would be a great place to be able to do that! I get it Grant and I have convos about this all the time...

I hope we can have the conversations I really do. It doesn't have to be about *their* perspective....

This space can be about how we see it or experience it, without mucking up the other thread.

Make sense?

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

I wish you'd give commentary about a femme perspective. Oh please.

Thanks for the feedback, I think I understand the intent of the thread more now.

Thinking about my femme perspective...

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by blush

From my "me" place, it is very difficult (but very necessary) for me NOT to voice my opinion in transmen/butch threads because I'm around butches/transmen all the time. I'm really bad at keeping my mouth shut in transmen/butch threads. Even when I should, and I know I should, because the discussion isn't about me. It feels unnatural because Goof and I chat it up about everything, and I feel very much a part of his world. So I have a hard time differentiating when a butch/transperson forum discussion doesn't need my femme perspective. It frustrates me. My opinion comment in my first post was a reflection of those feelings.

So the "trap" for me is being asked to give counsel about the relationship between the butch community and transmen community yet maintaining a respectful distant and not speaking for that community.

Thanks for being patient with me.

This would be a great place to be able to do that! I get it Grant and I have convos about this all the time...

I hope we can have the conversations I really do. It doesn't have to be about *their* perspective....

This space can be about how we see it or experience it, without mucking up the other thread.

Make sense?

[Arwen]

Originally Posted by blush

So the "trap" for me is being asked to give counsel about the relationship between the butch community and transmen community yet maintaining a respectful distant and not speaking for that community.

Thanks for being patient with me.

I so get this, blush. I think that is what I felt too. I also see that there is a bigger (or maybe smaller) picture here in the idea of femmes who speak on behalf of one group or another. Why do we do that? Is it a protective thing? I know for me it can be.

Because I know and love transmen, I get really riled at perceived slights. And, that's not mine to get riled over...or is it? Here is where I get really wishy-washy.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I don't know if it is a protective thing, cause lemme tell you there are a few times I wanted to go in and drag Grant out of a thread cause of how I felt.

My dynamics with him say I can, I don't because his voice is strong and important and should be heard

Just like anyone elses...

I don't need to go in and mother and cater and fawn over anyone, can I be an ally

FUCK yes..

Can I do it in a way that is productive and not so oogey?

Yes

[Arwen]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I don't need to go in and mother and cater and fawn over anyone, can I be an ally

FUCK yes..

Can I do it in a way that is productive and not so oogey?

Yes

Ally is one of THOSE words for me. I've been flat out told I can't call myself a trans-ally by someone. You will see that I ran with that. NOT.

What is an ally?

Interesting. I just went to look up the definition which is "to unite or form a connection between." Which I sort of knew but I did not know that the word stems from a word that means to bind.

So is an ally someone you bind yourself with in order to prove a connection?

[blush]

Originally Posted by Arwen

I so get this, blush. I think that is what I felt too. I also see that there is a bigger (or maybe smaller) picture here in the idea of femmes who speak on behalf of one group or another. Why do we do that? Is it a protective thing? I know for me it can be.

Because I know and love transmen, I get really riled at perceived slights. And, that's not mine to get riled over...or is it? Here is where I get really wishy-washy.

Yeah, I'm rabidly protective. Oh, the posts I've started and deleted...and the ones I should have deleted but posted instead...