Male ID butch vs. FTM??

[Jaques]

when we are born, our gender is defined and logged on our birth certificate, by the kind of genitals we have, not by the way we feel/act/dress later on. Therefore - though a transguy, being born with female genitals, I will not deny I am physically female. I can never, by way of taking testosterone or the operations I had to alter my body to that which felt comfortable, be a biological male. Its much easier to accept that, since there is nothing more I can do about it.
I consider myself male in essence, i.e. I feel/dress/behave in a male fashion, though there are female characteristics, as there are with any bio male. Therefore, I accept myself, as I am and live as male - easier now I look masculine - if anyone finds out I was born female, i have no problem with them knowing and am happy to answer any questions they may have.

When I thought I was butch lesbian, i did have a problem - it felt very wrong - so my take on this question, is that one should go with what's right for them - it can take time, sometimes a lifetime to discover what that is...............and its often a painful journey

[Liam]

Originally Posted by Jaques

when we are born, our gender is defined and logged on our birth certificate, by the kind of genitals we have, not by the way we feel/act/dress later on.

Some folks are born with genitals that are confusing to the people filling out the birth certificate. Sometimes procedures take place to remove the confusion, there is a fifty percent chance that the results of that procedure, will match the infant's mind later in life. Not every FTM is truly a female transitioning to male.

[Jaques]

Originally Posted by Liam

Some folks are born with genitals that are confusing to the people filling out the birth certificate. Sometimes procedures take place to remove the confusion, there is a fifty percent chance that the results of that procedure, will match the infant's mind later in life. Not every FTM is truly a female transitioning to male.

that of course is true, but we are talking butch v transguy here, not amaphrodite..............werent we all amaphrodites once - at the beginning of time, so the male v female thing is only transitory anyway, just like everything is...........

[Liam]

Originally Posted by Jaques

that of course is true, but we are talking butch v transguy here, not amaphrodite..............werent we all amaphrodites once - at the beginning of time, so the male v female thing is only transitory anyway, just like everything is...........

Your ignorance astounds me. People who are intersexed are butches, femmes, and even transguys.

[citybutch]

I think you mean hermaphrodite... and I think intersexed is a preferred term.

For ME, sex and gender are different... and there is a rainbow of expression for both... Male/female is a binary illusion... language and culture set us up to squeeze into one box or the other...

Originally Posted by Jaques

that of course is true, but we are talking butch v transguy here, not amaphrodite..............werent we all amaphrodites once - at the beginning of time, so the male v female thing is only transitory anyway, just like everything is...........

[Thinker]

Originally Posted by Liam

Your ignorance astounds me. People who are intersexed are butches, femmes, and even transguys.

Liam, that first sentence isn't very kind or welcoming. Please make an effort to keep your comments positive. If you have any questions, you are welcome to write via PM.

Thank you.

Thinker (moderating)

[Jaques]

Originally Posted by citybutch

I think you mean hermaphrodite... and I think intersexed is a preferred term.

....................yes, my spelling certainly needs a lot to be desired doesnt it?
Whether intersexed is the preferred term, im not sure but it means the same.

For ME, sex and gender are different... and there is a rainbow of expression for both... Male/female is a binary illusion... language and culture set us up to squeeze into one box or the other...

I think sexuality and gender are different - and, depending on your outlook, everything we are is an illusion brought about by our own minds/energy - but again thats a matter of personal belief............

[Jaques]

Originally Posted by Liam

Your ignorance astounds me. People who are intersexed are butches, femmes, and even transguys.

.................yes i know that -and 4 people thanked me for my post (thankyou) no wonder you call yourself "Mr crankypants" - lol!

[Liam]

Originally Posted by citybutch

I think you mean hermaphrodite... and I think intersexed is a preferred term.

The term hermaphrodite is a stigmatizing and misleading term, it implies that a person is both male and female, which is impossible physiologically. One can possess parts of what is consider male or female, but one is neither completely male or female. It is an offensive word to the intersexed.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by Liam

The term hermaphrodite is a stigmatizing and misleading term, it implies that a person is both male and female, which is impossible physiologically. One can possess parts of what is consider male or female, but one is neither completely male or female. It is an offensive word to the intersexed.

City knows this and was correcting Jaques.

ETA: I want to publicly thank Liam for his kindness to me, you rawk buddy!

[Liam]

Originally Posted by Corkey

City knows this and was correcting Jaques.

I realise this, and I was hoping to educate others.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by Liam

I realise this, and I was hoping to educate others.

Gotcha!.....

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by Jaques

that of course is true, but we are talking butch v transguy here, not amaphrodite..............werent we all amaphrodites once - at the beginning of time, so the male v female thing is only transitory anyway, just like everything is...........

Actually we were talking Male ID"d Butches and FTM, not necessarily V.S. I do hope you will read the entire thread. Welcome to the thread.

[Jaques]

forgive me for "wandering" in the thread - intersexed is a relatively new word for hermaphradite - when i used it, it was not meant to be used in a derogatory way, but i am always happy to be educated - its how we learn - I am learning a lot from this site ................. its an education in itself

[SelfMadeMan]

I've been doing a lot of soul searching during the last few days about my attitudes/opinions on this subject and I just wanted to stop in here and apologize to those whom I offended with my posts earlier. I'm not afraid to admit when I'm wrong. I have had some pretty rigid opinions on the whole TG/TS thing. I think that this was because of the community being so different when I transitioned - prior to the Male ID'd Butch community being so present. The fact is, it doesn't affect me personally how anyone else ID's... and I do believe in individuality and having the right to be/look/live your life in a manner that makes you true to yourself - hence my tattoo on my chest that reads 'to thine ownself be true' I can't expect to have the freedom to live my truth while disagreeing with anothers. For that, I am truly sorry.
So anyway... I hope the conversation in here continues and we can all learn from one another.

[Greyson]

Originally Posted by HowSoonIsNow

I don't know if it's just where I am from, but I have never heard of male - Id (or trans) butches until I joined these sites a few years ago.

I *thought* butches were masculine lesbians.

Well, that former notion of butch has expanded, but, honestly, it is only on these sites that I have heard of people Id'ing as butch AND male (or even trans too)--where there is no acknowledgement of female in conjunction with the ID of butch I guess is what I am trying to (poorly?) express.
Deviant wrote of her curiosity concerning people who have transitioned and retain butch as part of their identity.

This prompted me to wonder what lesbian butches (if anything) think of those who have physically transitioned from F to M and, yet, also retain the ID of butch?

I'm not sure if there's anyone besides Bulldog who id's as a lesbian butch on this thread, so I don't want to put you on the spot Bully, but I was curious if butches had any thoughts or feelings on the retention of butch as an ID for those who have transitioned.

Jo, I am surprised there as been no response to this post. I have been an out Butch for 38 years. Maybe this is in part why I cannot easily trade in my identity because I have "transitioned." Where and when I came out as a teenager may have been much more of an influence on my internal process of how I saw myself in gender and my sexual orientation. From my small corner of the world, "Butches" were not considered to be like other "women." We did not go about in our lives proclaiming to be "lesbians." In fact "lesbians" did not see us as part of "the community." Much has changed now. Previously in my thinking it was a given that I as a Butch was not "woman" in the same way as my identical twin sister, my mother or other women.

Very briefly in my personal history I did finally use the term "lesbian" to identify myself in a photography showing where my image was to be represented with many other Latinos/Latinas. Back then I wanted the heterosexual, lesbian and gay middle class that would primarily be viewing this show to have no doubt that I was indeed of the queer variety. I did not have the vocabulary nor knowledge that I have today about gender and sexuality.

For me, and only for me, Transmasculine Butch and Transman are very much the same. For me to clarify I am a "Transman" denotes, I was not born a cisgendered male. Transitioning has led me to greater self examination that I did not do in depth before I started the transition process. I have given much thought and taken action regarding my own and others, sexism, misogyny, racism and what it means to be a feminist.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Greyson

Jo, I am surprised there as been no response to this post. I have been an out Butch for 38 years. Maybe this is in part why I cannot easily trade in my identity because I have "transitioned." Where and when I came out as a teenager may have been much more of an influence on my internal process of how I saw myself in gender and my sexual orientation. From my small corner of the world, "Butches" were not considered to be like other "women." We did not go about in our lives proclaiming to be "lesbians." In fact "lesbians" did not see us as part of "the community." Much has changed now. Previously in my thinking it was a given that I as a Butch was not "woman" in the same way as my identical twin sister, my mother or other women.

Very briefly in my personal history I did finally use the term "lesbian" to identify myself in a photography showing where my image was to be represented with many other Latinos/Latinas. Back then I wanted the heterosexual, lesbian and gay middle class that would primarily be viewing this show to have no doubt that I was indeed of the queer variety. I did not have the vocabulary nor knowledge that I have today about gender and sexuality.

For me, and only for me, Transmasculine Butch and Transman are very much the same. For me to clarify I am a "Transman" denotes, I was not born a cisgendered male. Transitioning has led me to greater self examination that I did not do in depth before I started the transition process. I have given much thought and taken action regarding my own and others, sexism, misogyny, racism and what it means to be a feminist.

Greyson, Soon's question was not ignored. I answered her privately. I myself am a lesbian and butch and have not felt lesbians ostracizing me or feeling that I was not a woman or that I was not part of the lesbian community. So our perspective and experience is different.

[Greyson]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Greyson, Soon's question was not ignored. I answered her privately. I myself am a lesbian and butch and have not felt lesbians ostracizing me or feeling that I was not a woman or that I was not part of the lesbian community. So our perspective and experience is different.

Bully, I really was not being specific to you. I know our experiences are and have been different and I also think the both of us see ourselves as part of this community and can live with differences. I was not trying to single you out.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Jaques

forgive me for "wandering" in the thread - intersexed is a relatively new word for hermaphradite - when i used it, it was not meant to be used in a derogatory way, but I am always happy to be educated - its how we learn - I am learning a lot from this site ................. its an education in itself

Although I prefer this site to the old one, I had a difficult time leaving it when I did (don't have time to post in both) because finally, there were more intersexed people speaking up and offering a lot of good information. I get a lot of my information and suggestions for reading from my intersexed cousin, but, my hope is that this gender forms a much stronger presence here- not the same tenets apply to them that do for the TG.

I did post earlier (as a gender-blended female person, the identification I have found to be the most accurate for myself in the literature) about seeing why a transman would continue to identify as butch due to their history, which goes far deeper than an identification or label. It seems to fit for some people. I do view folks that take T, have gender reassignment surgeries and refer to them selves as men or male as transgendered and as men. Mainly, this is because of the bio-physiological and mental status scientific definitions put forth today in gender theory.

However, as has always been the case, I don't believe that everyone is going to fit neatly into specific gender identifications. Hell that is the reason gender-blended female person was introduced for people like me! There is just too much fluidity to gender as I see it for the continuation of rigid definitions.

Now, I do have a problem with one gaining male privilege, abusing it as cisgendered men have for centuries and wanting to claim butch in any female sense. That is just the same old patriarchal power dynamic that men have enjoyed forever. There does come a point in transitioning in which one will be viewed exclusively as male and this is where feminist thought (which is not exclusively the purview of women) needs some self-exploration.

Sometimes, a duck really is a duck and it doesn't matter if that duck started out as a pigeon. If it quacks, it's a duck.

I do feel that more discussions about the entire spectrum of gender as we know it today and especially intergendered manifestations (or female-ifestations), would give the entire site a much more well rounded learning curve on gender in its entirety. We seem to really focus on the TG in this all here as it relates to male, or men or masculinity. My personal sphere is about my comfort with female masculinity because that for me has not always been a congenial space and I am not transgendered, nor do I want to pass. I want to be recognized as the blending of gender that I am and just have that be OK!

The struggle for acceptance as we are with our female presentation (as female-identified butches for want of a better term) of what is defined as masculine is far from over. So is our need to have what is woman in us being recognized. We are just not that kind of woman or female! This is why, for me, the building of productive coalitions among the various genders that we all represent is critical in gaining equal rights and protections. It seems like we would be getting a lot further if we all could extract that butch history/experience from our souls and use it in conversations like this. We might find many more avenues to build alliances and coalitions. I know many TG men that speak from this space.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Greyson

Bully, I really was not being specific to you. I know our experiences are and have been different and I also think the both of us see ourselves as part of this community and can live with differences. I was not trying to single you out.

Yes, I realize that.