Male ID butch vs. FTM??

[Lee]

Thank you all for your great responses. I think Im learning a lot here. Basically Male ID Butch is another gender label, and as we all know each person defines their own gender label in a very personal and individual way? Right?

So heres what ive heard (read?) :

Male ID Butches are generally men or male ID folks who choose not to alter their bodies with T or surgery but some Male ID Butches still see their physical body as female.
FtM Trans folks are men who did not start out with a male body and may or may not use T or surgery to change their body.

So do any Male ID Butches take T and have surgery, or does the T and surgery mean that you are FtM (I know that you dont HAVE to have T and surgery to be FtM, but im wondering if it works the other way around...everyone who takes T and has surgery is an FtM, rather than other labels like Male ID Butch)??

Forgive my ignorance on the subject...

Thanks
Lee

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by Lee

Thank you all for your great responses. I think Im learning a lot here. Basically Male ID Butch is another gender label, and as we all know each person defines their own gender label in a very personal and individual way? Right?

So heres what ive heard (read?) :

Male ID Butches are generally men or male ID folks who choose not to alter their bodies with T or surgery but some Male ID Butches still see their physical body as female.
FtM Trans folks are men who did not start out with a male body and may or may not use T or surgery to change their body.

So do any Male ID Butches take T and have surgery, or does the T and surgery mean that you are FtM (I know that you dont HAVE to have T and surgery to be FtM, but im wondering if it works the other way around...everyone who takes T and has surgery is an FtM, rather than other labels like Male ID Butch)??

Forgive my ignorance on the subject...

Thanks
Lee

It is all purely subjective, from the person who wishes to ID themselves. There are no set rules or ways of gender expression. A FTM may or may not take T and FTM may or may not have surgery. It is up to that individual to make that distinction. A Male ID'd person may or may not take T a Male ID'd person may or may not have surgery, again it is all subjective and expressed individually.

[Greyson]

Originally Posted by Lee

Thank you all for your great responses. I think Im learning a lot here. Basically Male ID Butch is another gender label, and as we all know each person defines their own gender label in a very personal and individual way? Right?

So heres what ive heard (read?) :

Male ID Butches are generally men or male ID folks who choose not to alter their bodies with T or surgery but some Male ID Butches still see their physical body as female.
FtM Trans folks are men who did not start out with a male body and may or may not use T or surgery to change their body.

So do any Male ID Butches take T and have surgery, or does the T and surgery mean that you are FtM (I know that you dont HAVE to have T and surgery to be FtM, but im wondering if it works the other way around...everyone who takes T and has surgery is an FtM, rather than other labels like Male ID Butch)??

Forgive my ignorance on the subject...

Thanks
Lee

Lee, again, welcome to the site. The questions you are asking have been discussed many times here and on the other site. Please do not think I am saying your questions are redundant, they are not. I like the straight forward way you ask the question.

I cannot give you a big long answer that includes the "whys" right now because I am due at a meeting.

I am a masculine identified butch/ Transmasculine Butch and I have had surgery and I have been taking T for two years. I also use the label Transman at times.

Gotta go.

[Greyson]

Back. Lee there is no right way or wrong way to label your gender identity. That is entirely your decision. Many of us here came to our own personal gender identity through somewhat of an evolutionary process.

Let me step back and speak from the "I" perspective. For most of my adult life, I consciously identified as a Butch. In my thinking that put me in a sort of 3rd gender realm.

Now, for the past 20 years give or take a few years, it has become very possible for female bodied people to "transition."

For me, this "transition" is taking years and my transition is not restricted to hormones and surgeries. There is also the psychological, spiritual, and legal aspect to all of this, for me.

I identify as a "Transmasculine" Butch in part because I do not believe masculinity must be, can only be expressed as a male. "Masculinity" is present in both sexes and and all along the gender spectrum.

Legally, I am now a male but in many ways I am still working on what that looks like for me. For me I do not believe I am the same as a cisgendered man. Not all of the Butches, FTMs, bois believe the same as I do. And that is okay.

Finally, I have seen a few of us here change our ideas, and opinions about "gender" as we continue to discuss things here and live our lives in the world.

Good luck to you.

[Joe Mario]

Wow, this is a very interesting topic. The terms "male" and "man" still doesn't feel right for me.
The term male feels like "Bio-male" to me. I am still a sexual minority, not more than superficially assimilated with the hets.

TG Butch, as always before, still feels right for me.

[DamonK]

I'm not on T.
I've not had top surgery.

I have no intention of going on T.
Currently, I am not going to have top surgery. Regarding this, I have a plan that is a possibility. Healthwise, and emotionally, my plan fits my needs better.

That being said. I am a transguy. I don't need surgery or T to know this. I just am.

Someday, my outside will present more as my insides do. Hopefully within the next year.

I'm not FtM necessarily, I'm not male. I'm an unique person that embodies another third gender.

[SelfMadeMan]

I have read these types of threads over and over again, and have written, erased, written, erased so many times I lost count. I always talk myself out of expressing my opinion for fear of stirring the pot - I don't do drama and I try not to step on other people's toes. But I do have some very strong opinions on this topic and there are things that bother me immensly.

First of all - I stopped using the term Transgender a long time ago, and now only use Transexual if I need to use a label. Transgender is such a huge umbrella and people under it fall all over the gender spectrum - Transexual is pretty black and white. I was born female, and now have gone through the proper channels and jumped through the hoops to become physically and legally a man. The thing that irks me the most, is being referred to as a Butch. I am not a Butch - I am a man. I looked up the official definition of Butch (not that I don't know what it is, but just for arguments sake) and it is as follows:

butch   /bʊtʃ/ [booch]
–noun
1. butch haircut.
2. Slang . a lesbian, esp. one notably masculine in manner or appearance.
–adjective
3. Slang . a. (of a girl or woman) having traits of personality, dress, behavior, or appearance usually associated with males.
b. (of a male) decidedly or exaggeratedly masculine in manner or appearance.

If a Lesbian is a Butch, then a Butch is a woman. No? I am a man, therefore, to be called a Butch is redundant. This happens a lot and I just don't like it and I know I'm not alone. I have nothing against Butches - some of my best friends are Butches. What ever happened to a woman being as masculine and Butch as she wants to be without feeling the need to deny her gender? I love to see a strong, uber masculine Butch who is still proud to be a woman. I think that's damn HOT. I feel like young Butches have been made to feel like if they go too far, and are TOO butch, then they must want to be men. I'm not a man because of the clothes I wear, or the way I walk, or the way I wear my hair. I am a man because since I was 4 years old I knew I was, and I did whatever it took to become that legally and to the rest of the world.

I don't even know if I'm making sense or getting my point across - but I am open to discussion and would like to break this down more. Thoughts?

[~Bo]

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

I have read these types of threads over and over again, and have written, erased, written, erased so many times I lost count. I always talk myself out of expressing my opinion for fear of stirring the pot - I don't do drama and I try not to step on other people's toes. But I do have some very strong opinions on this topic and there are things that bother me immensly.

First of all - I stopped using the term Transgender a long time ago, and now only use Transexual if I need to use a label. Transgender is such a huge umbrella and people under it fall all over the gender spectrum - Transexual is pretty black and white. I was born female, and now have gone through the proper channels and jumped through the hoops to become physically and legally a man. The thing that irks me the most, is being referred to as a Butch. I am not a Butch - I am a man. I looked up the official definition of Butch (not that I don't know what it is, but just for arguments sake) and it is as follows:

butch   /bʊtʃ/ [booch]
–noun
1. butch haircut.
2. Slang . a lesbian, esp. one notably masculine in manner or appearance.
–adjective
3. Slang . a. (of a girl or woman) having traits of personality, dress, behavior, or appearance usually associated with males.
b. (of a male) decidedly or exaggeratedly masculine in manner or appearance.

If a Lesbian is a Butch, then a Butch is a woman. No? I am a man, therefore, to be called a Butch is redundant. This happens a lot and I just don't like it and I know I'm not alone. I have nothing against Butches - some of my best friends are Butches. What ever happened to a woman being as masculine and Butch as she wants to be without feeling the need to deny her gender? I love to see a strong, uber masculine Butch who is still proud to be a woman. I think that's damn HOT. I feel like young Butches have been made to feel like if they go too far, and are TOO butch, then they must want to be men. I'm not a man because of the clothes I wear, or the way I walk, or the way I wear my hair. I am a man because since I was 4 years old I knew I was, and I did whatever it took to become that legally and to the rest of the world.

I don't even know if I'm making sense or getting my point across - but I am open to discussion and would like to break this down more. Thoughts?

Ditto.....

[Greyson]

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

I have read these types of threads over and over again, and have written, erased, written, erased so many times I lost count. I always talk myself out of expressing my opinion for fear of stirring the pot - I don't do drama and I try not to step on other people's toes. But I do have some very strong opinions on this topic and there are things that bother me immensly.

First of all - I stopped using the term Transgender a long time ago, and now only use Transexual if I need to use a label. Transgender is such a huge umbrella and people under it fall all over the gender spectrum - Transexual is pretty black and white. I was born female, and now have gone through the proper channels and jumped through the hoops to become physically and legally a man. The thing that irks me the most, is being referred to as a Butch. I am not a Butch - I am a man. I looked up the official definition of Butch (not that I don't know what it is, but just for arguments sake) and it is as follows:

butch   /bʊtʃ/ [booch]
–noun
1. butch haircut.
2. Slang . a lesbian, esp. one notably masculine in manner or appearance.
–adjective
3. Slang . a. (of a girl or woman) having traits of personality, dress, behavior, or appearance usually associated with males.
b. (of a male) decidedly or exaggeratedly masculine in manner or appearance.

If a Lesbian is a Butch, then a Butch is a woman. No? I am a man, therefore, to be called a Butch is redundant. This happens a lot and I just don't like it and I know I'm not alone. I have nothing against Butches - some of my best friends are Butches. What ever happened to a woman being as masculine and Butch as she wants to be without feeling the need to deny her gender? I love to see a strong, uber masculine Butch who is still proud to be a woman. I think that's damn HOT. I feel like young Butches have been made to feel like if they go too far, and are TOO butch, then they must want to be men. I'm not a man because of the clothes I wear, or the way I walk, or the way I wear my hair. I am a man because since I was 4 years old I knew I was, and I did whatever it took to become that legally and to the rest of the world.

I don't even know if I'm making sense or getting my point across - but I am open to discussion and would like to break this down more. Thoughts?

Thank you for speaking up and stating what is true for you. I sincerely mean this. I would like to hear more of what you have to say. I am aware that "transitioning" may have similarities for many but there too are many varied experiences and identities.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

What ever happened to a woman being as masculine and Butch as she wants to be without feeling the need to deny her gender? I love to see a strong, uber masculine Butch who is still proud to be a woman. I think that's damn HOT.

Thank you for this. I am proud to be a butch, proud to be a woman and proud to be a lesbian.

[JustBeingMe]

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

I have read these types of threads over and over again, and have written, erased, written, erased so many times I lost count. I always talk myself out of expressing my opinion for fear of stirring the pot - I don't do drama and I try not to step on other people's toes. But I do have some very strong opinions on this topic and there are things that bother me immensly.

First of all - I stopped using the term Transgender a long time ago, and now only use Transexual if I need to use a label. Transgender is such a huge umbrella and people under it fall all over the gender spectrum - Transexual is pretty black and white. I was born female, and now have gone through the proper channels and jumped through the hoops to become physically and legally a man. The thing that irks me the most, is being referred to as a Butch. I am not a Butch - I am a man. I looked up the official definition of Butch (not that I don't know what it is, but just for arguments sake) and it is as follows:

butch   /bʊtʃ/ [booch]
–noun
1. butch haircut.
2. Slang . a lesbian, esp. one notably masculine in manner or appearance.
–adjective
3. Slang . a. (of a girl or woman) having traits of personality, dress, behavior, or appearance usually associated with males.
b. (of a male) decidedly or exaggeratedly masculine in manner or appearance.

If a Lesbian is a Butch, then a Butch is a woman. No? I am a man, therefore, to be called a Butch is redundant. This happens a lot and I just don't like it and I know I'm not alone. I have nothing against Butches - some of my best friends are Butches. What ever happened to a woman being as masculine and Butch as she wants to be without feeling the need to deny her gender? I love to see a strong, uber masculine Butch who is still proud to be a woman. I think that's damn HOT. I feel like young Butches have been made to feel like if they go too far, and are TOO butch, then they must want to be men. I'm not a man because of the clothes I wear, or the way I walk, or the way I wear my hair. I am a man because since I was 4 years old I knew I was, and I did whatever it took to become that legally and to the rest of the world.

I don't even know if I'm making sense or getting my point across - but I am open to discussion and would like to break this down more. Thoughts?

Ditto................

[imperfect_cupcake]

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

I'm not a man because of the clothes I wear, or the way I walk, or the way I wear my hair. I am a man because since I was 4 years old I knew I was, and I did whatever it took to become that legally and to the rest of the world.

I don't even know if I'm making sense or getting my point across - but I am open to discussion and would like to break this down more. Thoughts?

yes. I know plenty of men of any/all origins or aren't even slightly butch-as-adjective. In fact two of my closest men friends are giant queens. And manly as all get-out. And still very much the male they have always been no matter what their starting point was.

Butch, for many, is a gender - regardless. some people I know that physically transition into their very own gender and sex (not exactly male sex, but something else entirely) still see one of their genders as butch as their sex still encompasses something partially female.

So I can see the crossing of why some still claim the gender.

But I can see/understand the very clear logic of why many do not.


I personally don't tend to see FtM as butch. Unless they tell me they are because of the variety of their sex(transition and head space) (FtQ a term a couple of my friends use and how I separate it in my own head).

again, it's not up to me though. it's where they live. I have no say in that.

[citybutch]

Woman and female are two completely different things... in terms of meaning, etymological heritage, and values... I am female. I do not identify as woman. I strongly admire those females who DO identify as woman. Gender identity is a rainbow and not dualistic as our language binds us to... When we cannot find the words to define our grey area... then these types of struggles happen. The fact is... butch is not necessarily woman. It's not even necessarily female (which is what I think you were saying) Oh.. and I have seen plenty of non-butch men... man and butch is really not all that redundant...


Am jumping in and just thought I would add a thought or two...

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

I have read these types of threads over and over again, and have written, erased, written, erased so many times I lost count. I always talk myself out of expressing my opinion for fear of stirring the pot - I don't do drama and I try not to step on other people's toes. But I do have some very strong opinions on this topic and there are things that bother me immensly.

First of all - I stopped using the term Transgender a long time ago, and now only use Transexual if I need to use a label. Transgender is such a huge umbrella and people under it fall all over the gender spectrum - Transexual is pretty black and white. I was born female, and now have gone through the proper channels and jumped through the hoops to become physically and legally a man. The thing that irks me the most, is being referred to as a Butch. I am not a Butch - I am a man. I looked up the official definition of Butch (not that I don't know what it is, but just for arguments sake) and it is as follows:

butch   /bʊtʃ/ [booch]
–noun
1. butch haircut.
2. Slang . a lesbian, esp. one notably masculine in manner or appearance.
–adjective
3. Slang . a. (of a girl or woman) having traits of personality, dress, behavior, or appearance usually associated with males.
b. (of a male) decidedly or exaggeratedly masculine in manner or appearance.

If a Lesbian is a Butch, then a Butch is a woman. No? I am a man, therefore, to be called a Butch is redundant. This happens a lot and I just don't like it and I know I'm not alone. I have nothing against Butches - some of my best friends are Butches. What ever happened to a woman being as masculine and Butch as she wants to be without feeling the need to deny her gender? I love to see a strong, uber masculine Butch who is still proud to be a woman. I think that's damn HOT. I feel like young Butches have been made to feel like if they go too far, and are TOO butch, then they must want to be men. I'm not a man because of the clothes I wear, or the way I walk, or the way I wear my hair. I am a man because since I was 4 years old I knew I was, and I did whatever it took to become that legally and to the rest of the world.

I don't even know if I'm making sense or getting my point across - but I am open to discussion and would like to break this down more. Thoughts?

[Bad_boi]

I think it depends upon the person. There are so many pre-conceived ideas about what makes a man and what makes a woman. Same goes for butch and FTM. It is different for the individual.

[SelfMadeMan]

The beautiful thing about diversity is that we each get to (or SHOULD get to) choose how we best identify, regardless of gender. I am a huge fan of female masculinity in all its forms... and I think Butches should be respected for wherever they choose to fall into the gender spectrum!