Male ID butch vs. FTM??

[Cowboi]

hermaphroditism- condition where both testicular and ovarian tissue exit in the same person, the testicular tissue containing seminiferous tubules or spermatozoa in the ovarian tissue containing corpora albicantia. A chomasomal abnormality.


psuedohermaphrodite- a congenital condition in which a person has either male or female gonads but external genitalia of the opposite sex, or both.




pseudohermaphroditism- a condition in which a exhibits the somatic characteristics of both sexes through possessing, the phsysical characteristics of either males or females.

[Cowboi]

Originally Posted by Cowboi

hermaphroditism- condition where both testicular and ovarian tissue exit in the same person, the testicular tissue containing seminiferous tubules or spermatozoa in the ovarian tissue containing corpora albicantia. A chomasomal abnormality.


psuedohermaphrodite- a congenital condition in which a person has either male or female gonads but external genitalia of the opposite sex, or both.




pseudohermaphroditism- a condition in which a exhibits the somatic characteristics of both sexes through possessing, the phsysical characteristics of either males or females.

In the first paragraph the word exit should be exist.

[Corkey]

While I am pleased that we have a conversation about Intersexed individuals, this thread isn't about them.
Nor is it about Female ID'd Butches. It is about Male ID'd and FTM's, the differences that we see about the two id's and how we have some of the same issues. Don't know where we veered off topic.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Greyson, Soon's question was not ignored. I answered her privately. I myself am a lesbian and butch and have not felt lesbians ostracizing me or feeling that I was not a woman or that I was not part of the lesbian community. So our perspective and experience is different.

Bully, my experience is very different than what is often (not always) presented here and in the real-time B-F/Tg/I/multi-sexuality based community I live in. This has become one of the reasons I am not posting as much in threads like this anymore. Also, many folks here are trying to figure out their gender variables and struggling deeply. I have been thinking that I'd rather see these members be able to find their path without so much of the divisive conversations we can get into. PM messages work well if we want to really talk on a more personal basis.

And sure, as a lesbian, I tire of the anti-lesbian, or as aptly described in the TOS, lesbian-phobic rhetoric that I often see here. Although, with the inclusion of lesbian-phobia in the TOS, I view the admin as top notch in recognizing the problem for what it is- bigotry about a sexual minority. Kudos to the admin! Yes, I have experienced butch-phobia and seen transphobia as well as femme-phobia from separatist lesbians. However, they do not represent the all lesbians and certainly not the majority.

In some ways, I feel like the question posed to (only) female-identified butches about our views on butch being used by some of the gender identifications here that claim masculine, male, or man is a form of baiting. We don't need any more division among us. And I do use us as inclusive. As I stated, there are many fully transitioned transmen that have a deep and long history of butch identity and I just don't see how that can be wiped-out simply due to transitioning. Butch is part of the narrative we all have experience with as femme (considering what many femmes get blasted with if they are involved with a TG person).

Sometimes, I honestly do not understand why there is so much division among us on websites like this. This is just not my real-time experience.

I will welcome the day when butch is not discussed in terms of Trans or visa versa and female is not compared to male in the same ways it has been for centuries. We (all of us) have the opportunity to transcend patriarchal bigotry right in front of us. I hope we seize this opportunity and write a very different history along with gender presentations and interaction. Historically, I see no better time to banish gender myths and sexism. But, we have to take the lead and get un-stuck.

Personally, I accept anyone's claim of butch.

[BullDog]

AtLast, I didn't find the question being posed to be baiting at all, especially taking into consideration who asked it. The reason I answered privately is because it's very obvious that my participation is not welcomed by some on this thread.

I responded to Greyson's post yesterday only because I didn't want there to be an impression that Soon's question was being ignored and my experience is very much indeed different than his.

I do agree with you that my experience of butch in the real world is very different than what I find online.

Now back to your male comparisons without any further intrusions from me.

[Corkey]

Ok so back on track guys, any thing to add?

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by Lee

Ive never seen Male Id butch before this website. I think i get the concept, ive read short explanations on a lot of other posts but I was wondering if someone would mind breaking down the difference between a Male ID Butch person and a FtM trans person?

Thanks
Lee

i don't know if you will be able to get a group think on the break down you are asking for.

we are at a unique place in history right now, where the gender spectrum becoming visible to the world at large is vastly greater than the language available to describe it. the only thing consistent in this is change.

i really truly think that the best way to sift through it all is to rely on an individuals self identity rather than trying to cram people into the same old tired two available boxes.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

i don't know if you will be able to get a group think on the break down you are asking for.

we are at a unique place in history right now, where the gender spectrum becoming visible to the world at large is vastly greater than the language available to describe it. the only thing consistent in this is change.

i really truly think that the best way to sift through it all is to rely on an individuals self identity rather than trying to cram people into the same old tired two available boxes.

I think you are right SF, people weren't made to be placed in boxes, there are far to few, and not all are the same.

[Cowboi]

I would like to offer an apology to anyone that was offended by the medical terms I posted this morning. It was not my intent to mean anything rude or hateful.

I of all people do not have issues with how one id's. I do feel like we all at some point and time we have all traveled some of the same roads during our journeys.

Earlier in the day I had a conversation about the same words. Most people use the wrong term anyway.
The defenitions were straight from one of my medical books from school.


Again my apologies.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by Cowboi

I would like to offer an apology to anyone that was offended by the medical terms I posted this morning. It was not my intent to mean anything rude or hateful.

I of all people do not have issues with how one id's. I do feel like we all at some point and time we have all traveled some of the same roads during our journeys.

Earlier in the day I had a conversation about the same words. Most people use the wrong term anyway.
The definitions were straight from one of my medical books from school.


Again my apologies.

I know you weren't trying to being offensive, the Intersexed folks who I know who have spoken out do not use those medical definitions to describe themselves, for they have said they are not deformed or an abnormality. We have to remember there are people behind these definitions and I will go with what they prefer to be called, Intersexed. Which again isn't the topic of this thread, but thank you for the apology.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by BullDog

AtLast, I didn't find the question being posed to be baiting at all, especially taking into consideration who asked it. The reason I answered privately is because it's very obvious that my participation is not welcomed by some on this thread.

I responded to Greyson's post yesterday only because I didn't want there to be an impression that Soon's question was being ignored and my experience is very much indeed different than his.

I do agree with you that my experience of butch in the real world is very different than what I find online.

Now back to your male comparisons without any further intrusions from me.

Bully, I was just pointing out a personal observation. I own personal sensitivies just simply as a human being. I know grey well and no, my comment was not any kind of swipe at him. In fact, he and many transmasculine butches get shit for using butch while engaging in what is considered transitioning to men kinds of procedures and treatments. Maybe my wording was not as clear as posible, but it wasn't a swipe, but I know baiting does happen in online threads on every website I have become a member of. To every identification that any person could have. Really counter-productive. I want more conversation that helps us build community and is supportive to all.

[Soon]

I explained where the origin of my question came from and don't appreciate, At Last, your belief that I was or may be baiting anyone.

After Bully PM'd me with her response, I let it go b/c I realized that this was the wrong thread/venue to ask those who would be able to respond; I apologize for wanting opinions from those to whom this thread was not designed.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by HowSoonIsNow

I explained where the origin of my question came from and don't appreciate, At Last, your belief that I was baiting anyone.

After Bully PM'd me with her response, I let it go b/c I realized that this was the wrong thread/venue to ask those who would be able to respond; I apologize for wanting opinions from those to whom this thread was not designed.

My post was in response to Greyson, actually. And I explained it and also said I could have used other terms. I received a positive rep from him regarding the post. I also know him well enough in real-time to know that if he had a problem with anything, he would let me know, with honor, integrity and dignity. We would have a work thru things via goodwill.

The question grey posed was directed at butches like me! Feel free to PM me with anything. This is just going to spin off into exactly the kind of nonsense that hurts all of us. I don't want to have anything to do with that. I'm tired of the hurt these discussions can cause simply due to jumping to conclusions as opposed to asking for clarification.

I'm confused about something. If you do not want post from non-trans persons in this zone, why have questions posed to and about us? Since other female-identified butches are posting here, I thought I was invited to post as a member of this site and community as the identification I hold.

I will not continue to read the thread, or post in it.

[Greyson]

Originally Posted by HowSoonIsNow

I explained where the origin of my question came from and don't appreciate, At Last, your belief that I was or may be baiting anyone.

After Bully PM'd me with her response, I let it go b/c I realized that this was the wrong thread/venue to ask those who would be able to respond; I apologize for wanting opinions from those to whom this thread was not designed.

I have had the pleasure of meeting you face to face and getting to know you a bit. My experience of you is that you are an intelligent, curious, forthright, fun person that values integrity and loathes hypocrisy. None of us on this site can 100 % of the time express, articulate what is going through our thoughts without unknowingly offending some at times. I know you and do not believe you were "baiting." I saw you to be asking a very straight forward question in your tireless efforts to move our entire LGBTQI community forward. No worries from me. Let's not get bogged downed in the muck and our efforts off the overall goal/s of the community........EQUALITY.

[Soon]

Originally Posted by Greyson

I have had the pleasure of meeting you face to face and getting to know you a bit. My experience of you is that you are an intelligent, curious, forthright, fun person that values integrity and loathes hypocrasy. None of us on this site can 100 % of the time express, articulate what is going through our thoughts without unknowingly offending some at times. I know you and do not believe you were "baiting." I saw you to be asking a very straight forward question in your tireless efforts to move our entire LGBTQI community forward. No worries from me. Let's not get bogged downed in the muck and our efforts off the overall goal/s of the community........EQUALITY.

Wow--thanks so much, Greyson!

[Greyson]

Originally Posted by HowSoonIsNow

Wow--thanks so much, Greyson!

Of course the English Teacher would repost my original post before I could correct spelling errors.

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by Greyson

I have had the pleasure of meeting you face to face and getting to know you a bit. My experience of you is that you are an intelligent, curious, forthright, fun person that values integrity and loathes hypocrisy. None of us on this site can 100 % of the time express, articulate what is going through our thoughts without unknowingly offending some at times. I know you and do not believe you were "baiting." I saw you to be asking a very straight forward question in your tireless efforts to move our entire LGBTQI community forward. No worries from me. Let's not get bogged downed in the muck and our efforts off the overall goal/s of the community........EQUALITY.

i second this.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

i second this.

third... cause we, my wife and her husband, have spoken before, I know her heart is in the right place.

[SuperFemme]

HSIN for president.

[Joe Mario]

Regarding the highlighted part of your post:
Have been reflecting much on my transition and gaining this 'male priviledge' after transitioning. In my case, the 'priviledge' has felt superficial at best. My ID for the previous 25 years before I transitioned 2 years ago was some flavor of Butch. First softbutch, then Butch, then TG Butch, which I claim today. In straight culture, I am 'treated as' a man, which is fine with me- like before. But I still need to 'edit' what I do and say-like before, but just in different ways.
I have feminist values and history but am dealing with straight males who want to bond (priviledge?), but who are not from my culture. I dont know their culture either and have no real interest in it. So, I wouldn't appreciate the red carpet leading to the mens club being rolled out for me by My Community. No, Thanks!

I am less visible or invisible in the queer community and (could) face misinterpretation and rejection for transitioning, which many Butches don't have to deal with.

I'd say this 'priveledge' is a trade-off. Perhaps the ones who complain about Butches Transitioning (not you, ALH; but generally speaking) need to examine why they are complaining to begin with. Begrudging us our 'ounce' of (so-called) priviledge and not looking at the drawbacks we face is unfair.


PS: (Culture and Social Influence matter in a duck's life... )

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

Although I prefer this site to the old one, I had a difficult time leaving it when I did (don't have time to post in both) because finally, there were more intersexed people speaking up and offering a lot of good information. I get a lot of my information and suggestions for reading from my intersexed cousin, but, my hope is that this gender forms a much stronger presence here- not the same tenets apply to them that do for the TG.

I did post earlier (as a gender-blended female person, the identification I have found to be the most accurate for myself in the literature) about seeing why a transman would continue to identify as butch due to their history, which goes far deeper than an identification or label. It seems to fit for some people. I do view folks that take T, have gender reassignment surgeries and refer to them selves as men or male as transgendered and as men. Mainly, this is because of the bio-physiological and mental status scientific definitions put forth today in gender theory.

However, as has always been the case, I don't believe that everyone is going to fit neatly into specific gender identifications. Hell that is the reason gender-blended female person was introduced for people like me! There is just too much fluidity to gender as I see it for the continuation of rigid definitions.

Now, I do have a problem with one gaining male privilege, abusing it as cisgendered men have for centuries and wanting to claim butch in any female sense. That is just the same old patriarchal power dynamic that men have enjoyed forever. There does come a point in transitioning in which one will be viewed exclusively as male and this is where feminist thought (which is not exclusively the purview of women) needs some self-exploration

Sometimes, a duck really is a duck and it doesn't matter if that duck started out as a pigeon. If it quacks, it's a duckI do feel that more discussions about the entire spectrum of gender as we know it today and especially intergendered manifestations (or female-ifestations), would give the entire site a much more well rounded learning curve on gender in its entirety. We seem to really focus on the TG in this all here as it relates to male, or men or masculinity. My personal sphere is about my comfort with female masculinity because that for me has not always been a congenial space and I am not transgendered, nor do I want to pass. I want to be recognized as the blending of gender that I am and just have that be OK!

The struggle for acceptance as we are with our female presentation (as female-identified butches for want of a better term) of what is defined as masculine is far from over. So is our need to have what is woman in us being recognized. We are just not that kind of woman or female! This is why, for me, the building of productive coalitions among the various genders that we all represent is critical in gaining equal rights and protections. It seems like we would be getting a lot further if we all could extract that butch history/experience from our souls and use it in conversations like this. We might find many more avenues to build alliances and coalitions. I know many TG men that speak from this space.