Male ID butch vs. FTM??

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Jaques

forgive me for "wandering" in the thread - intersexed is a relatively new word for hermaphradite - when i used it, it was not meant to be used in a derogatory way, but I am always happy to be educated - its how we learn - I am learning a lot from this site ................. its an education in itself

Although I prefer this site to the old one, I had a difficult time leaving it when I did (don't have time to post in both) because finally, there were more intersexed people speaking up and offering a lot of good information. I get a lot of my information and suggestions for reading from my intersexed cousin, but, my hope is that this gender forms a much stronger presence here- not the same tenets apply to them that do for the TG.

I did post earlier (as a gender-blended female person, the identification I have found to be the most accurate for myself in the literature) about seeing why a transman would continue to identify as butch due to their history, which goes far deeper than an identification or label. It seems to fit for some people. I do view folks that take T, have gender reassignment surgeries and refer to them selves as men or male as transgendered and as men. Mainly, this is because of the bio-physiological and mental status scientific definitions put forth today in gender theory.

However, as has always been the case, I don't believe that everyone is going to fit neatly into specific gender identifications. Hell that is the reason gender-blended female person was introduced for people like me! There is just too much fluidity to gender as I see it for the continuation of rigid definitions.

Now, I do have a problem with one gaining male privilege, abusing it as cisgendered men have for centuries and wanting to claim butch in any female sense. That is just the same old patriarchal power dynamic that men have enjoyed forever. There does come a point in transitioning in which one will be viewed exclusively as male and this is where feminist thought (which is not exclusively the purview of women) needs some self-exploration.

Sometimes, a duck really is a duck and it doesn't matter if that duck started out as a pigeon. If it quacks, it's a duck.

I do feel that more discussions about the entire spectrum of gender as we know it today and especially intergendered manifestations (or female-ifestations), would give the entire site a much more well rounded learning curve on gender in its entirety. We seem to really focus on the TG in this all here as it relates to male, or men or masculinity. My personal sphere is about my comfort with female masculinity because that for me has not always been a congenial space and I am not transgendered, nor do I want to pass. I want to be recognized as the blending of gender that I am and just have that be OK!

The struggle for acceptance as we are with our female presentation (as female-identified butches for want of a better term) of what is defined as masculine is far from over. So is our need to have what is woman in us being recognized. We are just not that kind of woman or female! This is why, for me, the building of productive coalitions among the various genders that we all represent is critical in gaining equal rights and protections. It seems like we would be getting a lot further if we all could extract that butch history/experience from our souls and use it in conversations like this. We might find many more avenues to build alliances and coalitions. I know many TG men that speak from this space.

[Joe Mario]

Regarding the highlighted part of your post:
Have been reflecting much on my transition and gaining this 'male priviledge' after transitioning. In my case, the 'priviledge' has felt superficial at best. My ID for the previous 25 years before I transitioned 2 years ago was some flavor of Butch. First softbutch, then Butch, then TG Butch, which I claim today. In straight culture, I am 'treated as' a man, which is fine with me- like before. But I still need to 'edit' what I do and say-like before, but just in different ways.
I have feminist values and history but am dealing with straight males who want to bond (priviledge?), but who are not from my culture. I dont know their culture either and have no real interest in it. So, I wouldn't appreciate the red carpet leading to the mens club being rolled out for me by My Community. No, Thanks!

I am less visible or invisible in the queer community and (could) face misinterpretation and rejection for transitioning, which many Butches don't have to deal with.

I'd say this 'priveledge' is a trade-off. Perhaps the ones who complain about Butches Transitioning (not you, ALH; but generally speaking) need to examine why they are complaining to begin with. Begrudging us our 'ounce' of (so-called) priviledge and not looking at the drawbacks we face is unfair.


PS: (Culture and Social Influence matter in a duck's life... )

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

Although I prefer this site to the old one, I had a difficult time leaving it when I did (don't have time to post in both) because finally, there were more intersexed people speaking up and offering a lot of good information. I get a lot of my information and suggestions for reading from my intersexed cousin, but, my hope is that this gender forms a much stronger presence here- not the same tenets apply to them that do for the TG.

I did post earlier (as a gender-blended female person, the identification I have found to be the most accurate for myself in the literature) about seeing why a transman would continue to identify as butch due to their history, which goes far deeper than an identification or label. It seems to fit for some people. I do view folks that take T, have gender reassignment surgeries and refer to them selves as men or male as transgendered and as men. Mainly, this is because of the bio-physiological and mental status scientific definitions put forth today in gender theory.

However, as has always been the case, I don't believe that everyone is going to fit neatly into specific gender identifications. Hell that is the reason gender-blended female person was introduced for people like me! There is just too much fluidity to gender as I see it for the continuation of rigid definitions.

Now, I do have a problem with one gaining male privilege, abusing it as cisgendered men have for centuries and wanting to claim butch in any female sense. That is just the same old patriarchal power dynamic that men have enjoyed forever. There does come a point in transitioning in which one will be viewed exclusively as male and this is where feminist thought (which is not exclusively the purview of women) needs some self-exploration

Sometimes, a duck really is a duck and it doesn't matter if that duck started out as a pigeon. If it quacks, it's a duckI do feel that more discussions about the entire spectrum of gender as we know it today and especially intergendered manifestations (or female-ifestations), would give the entire site a much more well rounded learning curve on gender in its entirety. We seem to really focus on the TG in this all here as it relates to male, or men or masculinity. My personal sphere is about my comfort with female masculinity because that for me has not always been a congenial space and I am not transgendered, nor do I want to pass. I want to be recognized as the blending of gender that I am and just have that be OK!

The struggle for acceptance as we are with our female presentation (as female-identified butches for want of a better term) of what is defined as masculine is far from over. So is our need to have what is woman in us being recognized. We are just not that kind of woman or female! This is why, for me, the building of productive coalitions among the various genders that we all represent is critical in gaining equal rights and protections. It seems like we would be getting a lot further if we all could extract that butch history/experience from our souls and use it in conversations like this. We might find many more avenues to build alliances and coalitions. I know many TG men that speak from this space.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Joe Mario

Regarding the highlighted part of your post:
Have been reflecting much on my transition and gaining this 'male priviledge' after transitioning. In my case, the 'priviledge' has felt superficial at best. My ID for the previous 25 years before I transitioned 2 years ago was some flavor of Butch. First softbutch, then Butch, then TG Butch, which I claim today. In straight culture, I am 'treated as' a man, which is fine with me- like before. But I still need to 'edit' what I do and say-like before, but just in different ways.
I have feminist values and history but am dealing with straight males who want to bond (priviledge?), but who are not from my culture. I dont know their culture either and have no real interest in it. So, I wouldn't appreciate the red carpet leading to the mens club being rolled out for me by My Community. No, Thanks!

I am less visible or invisible in the queer community and (could) face misinterpretation and rejection for transitioning, which many Butches don't have to deal with.

I'd say this 'priveledge' is a trade-off. Perhaps the ones who complain about Butches Transitioning (not you, ALH; but generally speaking) need to examine why they are complaining to begin with. Begrudging us our 'ounce' of (so-called) priviledge and not looking at the drawbacks we face is unfair.


PS: (Culture and Social Influence matter in a duck's life... )

So you are in denial of your *male privilege*??

I wanna ask about those who complain about butches transitioning too, but I need to understand the first question first.

Thanks in advance

[Liam]

For the record:
I never once, thought that this thread was about conflict between male identified butches and ftms. I thought it was about defining and comparing the two terms.

[Toughy]

Originally Posted by Liam

For the record:
I never once, thought that this thread was about conflict between male identified butches and ftms. I thought it was about defining and comparing the two terms.

The title could have been 'and' instead of 'vs' and better accomplished that goal.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by Toughy

The title could have been 'and' instead of 'vs' and better accomplished that goal.

Yes, it could have however the person who started the thread is a newbie, so that I think has to be taken into consideration. They probably don't have our vocabulary if they are asking these questions in the first place.

[Toughy]

Originally Posted by Corkey

Yes, it could have however the person who started the thread is a newbie, so that I think has to be taken into consideration. They probably don't have our vocabulary if they are asking these questions in the first place.

Absolutely. The learning curve can be difficult. I only brought that point up as a learning kind of thing. It has been currently talked about in other threads. The timing seemed appropriate and I hope I did it in a way that reminds all of us of language and the willingness to learn.

I did not mean to imply this thread had de-volved into a negative space.

[Joe Mario]

TLS: To repeat myself; "It feels superficial at best"

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

So you are in denial of your *male privilege*??

I wanna ask about those who complain about butches transitioning too, but I need to understand the first question first.

Thanks in advance

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Joe Mario

TLS: To repeat myself; "It feels superficial at best"

You do realize men have privilege right?

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

You do realize men have privilege right?

Talking about male privilege in relation to transguys/male ids is a little more complicated. Especially considering all the shit transguys go through, even when living full-time having an employer, landlord or random guy in the washroom somehow find out your trans can mean losing your job or your home with no legal back up, or being threatened for who you are. On top of that the potential reactions just going about your daily business, losing family, friends and anyone you care about, again for simply being who you are.

There is a reason why attempted suicides among trans people is approximately 70%, why suicide rates themselves are so much higher than in any other portion of the population, why approximately half of the trans population lives below the poverty line, why trans people are 3 times more likely to be the victims of violent crime than other areas of the population. How many trans people have been raped, beaten and killed because someone found out they were trans? How many trans people have been denied medical care outright because they are trans? Not to mention potentially never feeling at peace with yourself because of the body you were born into. Personally, this body does not feel like a privilege to me. Everytime people bring up male privilege in conjunction with transguys/male ids it seriously feels like an undermining of everything each and every guy that has to live his life as a guy born in the wrong body (whether pre-HRT/post-HRT, pre-op/post-op) has to go through. I'm not sure if you realise how disrespectful that can feel coming from a community that should be more aware of each other's struggles.

[The_Lady_Snow]

You're right I know nothing my bad for partaking in the conversation my apologies.

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

Talking about male privilege in relation to transguys/male ids is a little more complicated. Especially considering all the shit transguys go through, even when living full-time having an employer, landlord or random guy in the washroom somehow find out your trans can mean losing your job or your home with no legal back up, or being threatened for who you are. On top of that the potential reactions just going about your daily business, losing family, friends and anyone you care about, again for simply being who you are.

There is a reason why attempted suicides among trans people is approximately 70%, why suicide rates themselves are so much higher than in any other portion of the population, why approximately half of the trans population lives below the poverty line, why trans people are 3 times more likely to be the victims of violent crime than other areas of the population. How many trans people have been raped, beaten and killed because someone found out they were trans? How many trans people have been denied medical care outright because they are trans? Not to mention potentially never feeling at peace with yourself because of the body you were born into. Personally, this body does not feel like a privilege to me. Everytime people bring up male privilege in conjunction with transguys/male ids it seriously feels like an undermining of everything each and every guy that has to live his life as a guy born in the wrong body (whether pre-HRT/post-HRT, pre-op/post-op) has to go through. I'm not sure if you realise how disrespectful that can feel coming from a community that should be more aware of each other's struggles.

Perhaps it could have been stated with more clarity, but I think this is exactly to what "superficial" speaks. Quite literally, scratch beneath the surface and this artificial, or assumed, privilege is gone.

It can't be denied that transmen can walk into situations and assume a sort of cloak of privilege. If they don't reveal their history, and are never "discovered," they can walk through the world with a form of privilege not possessed by women and those of us who don't always "pass" (I really hate that term, for the record). But should their history become known, there is often an undeniable shit-storm to face.

I'm not certain we can legitimately speak in terms of trade-offs, however. "Here, have a little male privilege in exchange for your trials." While transmen "enjoy" privilege in ways others don't, I agree it's not something for which our "community" should constantly berate them (assuming individuals with a certain degree of self-awareness and understanding of their privilege); each time it's brought up it feels a little "undermining" to me, too. Male privilege is a fact, one that stands alone outside all the other aspects of being trans that hardly feel like "privilege." When speaking of male privilege we are speaking of one very particular social construct, which becomes decidedly more complicated when applied to transmen/male IDs. Choosing to identify male is hardly a guarantee one will experience male privilege, and it is when this accusation is levied, that I most bristle.


ETA:

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

You're right I know nothing my bad for partaking in the conversation my apologies.

Snow, you made a statement and Ender was countering you, as happens in dialogue. Nowhere did I see any statements accusing you of "knowing nothing." These are sensitive topics with strong emotional weight for both "sides" and your comment here feels dismissive of that. I, for one, was looking forward to your response. Not this.

[Dude]

Originally Posted by Joe Mario

PS: (Culture and Social Influence matter in a duck's life... )

actually in a duck's life , it's all about the plumage and presentation. I live with one. ( ">