Men with boobs.

[Dylan]

Heart,

I totally get what you're saying, and I agree with you 100% if we're speaking generally.

Where I disagree with you 100% is that this comment was made about an individual by an individual who has wayyyyyyyy more intimate knowledge of the person in question. We have absolutely no idea how this particular couple sees themselves.

If Mahhh Woman called me a man without a penis, or a woman with boobs, or whatever, it's between us, and has nada to do with how the rest of the trans community sees the comment. It's nunya's business how Mahhh Woman and I interact with one another and how we refer to eachother.

Now, if Nixon or Mahhh Woman said it about all butches, or all transfolks, I'd have a problem with it...but she didn't.

But yeah, I totally agree with you in a generally-speaking sense.


Not That Mahhh Opinion Matters At All To You, But Jus' Sayin',
Dylan

P.S. I'd probably also feel differently if this comment had come from an activist in the community or someone of that stature...an actual 'representative' of the community...but it's just Cynthia Nixon. Like someone else mentioned, she's about as important to me as Anne Heche.

[SassyLeo]

I do agree that if her partner wants to be called this, then that it totally their business. I am not in the middle of their relationship, so maybe this is a pet name. Who knows. When it takes on the life that it has already...I think there is some responsibility...

Originally Posted by Dylan

*snip*

P.S. I'd probably also feel differently if this comment had come from an activist in the community or someone of that stature...an actual 'representative' of the community...but it's just Cynthia Nixon. Like someone else mentioned, she's about as important to me as Anne Heche.

And I differ with you here...

I think she just needs a bit of education. Sure she is not Ellen, but as a Queer person in the media, making comments, whether they are personal to her partner or not, people read them. Just as we all have here, read them and had opinions. I feel like she has at least a tiny bit of responsibility (being in the media) to help educate. Now I am not asking her to become a spokesperson for all things Queer...but...

I sort of equate it to a sports figure. I believe a sports person, say Dennis Rodman, has responsibility to not do really stupid shit. I mean we all make mistakes, but kids look up to these people and when they do stupid shit, it makes an impression.

So, again, I'm not condoning what she said... just thinking that she needs a lesson in some Queer/Gender language.

[Soon]

Originally Posted by Dylan

P.S. I'd probably also feel differently if this comment had come from an activist in the community or someone of that stature...an actual 'representative' of the community...but it's just Cynthia Nixon. Like someone else mentioned, she's about as important to me as Anne Heche.

Why the comparison to Anne Heche at all? Is it b/c this is her first queer relationship?

I'm not sure what the criteria is for activist, but she has spoken at rallies for marriage equality and has brought up the issue frequently when interviewed. Michelle Obama recently invited the both of them to the Mother's Day tea, even! Marinoni is a well known education activist in NYC.

I agree with SassyLeo regarding some responsibility and some education on her part (regardless of whether this is fine as a descriptor b/w them, it does affect others' perceptions of what it is to be butch or a masculine presenting female (which, in her description, is not a woman).

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by HowSoonIsNow

Why the comparison to Anne Heche at all? Is it b/c this is her first queer relationship?

I'm not sure what the criteria is for activist, but she has spoken at rallies for marriage equality and has brought up the issue frequently when interviewed. Michelle Obama recently invited the both of them to the Mother's Day tea, even! Marinoni is a well known education activist in NYC.

Honestly, I just don't keep up with the likes of Cynthia Nixon (or most 'celebrities' for that matter). Again, I could give a rip about how she refers to her partner.

Good for her for speaking up about marriage equality. That's more than some people do I guess.

And the reference to Anne Heche? They're both pale, pasty-white bad actresses with short hair who are equally insignificant in my life, and I don't really feel the 'impact' of their 'stardom' (used extremely loosely) as queers.

What? They're famous and went to a rally? Yippee! Who cares? Just 'cuz someone's queer doesn't mean they're an ambassador. It also doesn't mean they have some moral obligation to always say smart, informed, activisty things. Sometimes, some queers are just normal people who just live their gay lives and happen to do an interview for some gay magazine (which I also don't read, because it's just too full of ads and stories about gay men...oh, and because I'm a bad queer).

As for the girlfriend being an activist...yay! Never heard of her before today...won't remember her name tomorrow (in fact, I already don't remember her name). But we're not discussing her words anyways. I'm sure she'll get a smackdown if she ever refers to herself as a 'man with boobs'. I'm sure she'll be told how she's holding the whole (unidentified) community down.

Again, I agree 100% if we were speaking generally...but this was a comment about this person's partner that wasn't said in some angry way as an insult. If that's how they roll in their relationship...yippee again. Not my business to 'correct' them on that one. Had she said it about all butches/lesbians/whomever, I'd march right to nyc right now and pull her hair really hard and wag my big finger of shame right in her face. Same thing if someone I was actually invested in reading said it about 'all' butches/lesbians/whatnot...but to expect Cynthia Freakin' Nixon to 'represent' better? Please. We may as well take crazy Anne Heche at that point.


Dylan...wonders who wants to tell Mahhh Woman that she's personally oppressing all women by 'letting' me refer to her as Mahhh Woman (especially when I smack her ass)

[Soon]

Thanks for the response!

(parts of it cracked me up, even!)

[Dylan]

P.S. I think I might be more inclined to hold her more 'responsible' if she had been out or identified as queer for more than just a few years. It's kind of like expecting great driving strategies from a teenager. (this also kind of ties into the tie to Anne Heche)

I mean, if we were talking about Bea Arthur or Anyone who has actually been involved in the queer community for a bajillion years, then yeah, I would expect more from them. But...it's Cynthia Nixon...she's been out for what? a few years? I came out when I was 15...I don't think anyone expected great things from me in the way of queer politics three years later, yanno what I'm sayin'?


Dylan

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by Dylan

Honestly, I just don't keep up with the likes of Cynthia Nixon (or most 'celebrities' for that matter). Again, I could give a rip about how she refers to her partner.

Good for her for speaking up about marriage equality. That's more than some people do I guess.

And the reference to Anne Heche? They're both pale, pasty-white bad actresses with short hair who are equally insignificant in my life, and I don't really feel the 'impact' of their 'stardom' (used extremely loosely) as queers.

What? They're famous and went to a rally? Yippee! Who cares? Just 'cuz someone's queer doesn't mean they're an ambassador. It also doesn't mean they have some moral obligation to always say smart, informed, activisty things. Sometimes, some queers are just normal people who just live their gay lives and happen to do an interview for some gay magazine (which I also don't read, because it's just too full of ads and stories about gay men...oh, and because I'm a bad queer).

As for the girlfriend being an activist...yay! Never heard of her before today...won't remember her name tomorrow (in fact, I already don't remember her name). But we're not discussing her words anyways. I'm sure she'll get a smackdown if she ever refers to herself as a 'man with boobs'. I'm sure she'll be told how she's holding the whole (unidentified) community down.

Again, I agree 100% if we were speaking generally...but this was a comment about this person's partner that wasn't said in some angry way as an insult. If that's how they roll in their relationship...yippee again. Not my business to 'correct' them on that one. Had she said it about all butches/lesbians/whomever, I'd march right to nyc right now and pull her hair really hard and wag my big finger of shame right in her face. Same thing if someone I was actually invested in reading said it about 'all' butches/lesbians/whatnot...but to expect Cynthia Freakin' Nixon to 'represent' better? Please. We may as well take crazy Anne Heche at that point.


Dylan...wonders who wants to tell Mahhh Woman that she's personally oppressing all women by 'letting' me refer to her as Mahhh Woman (especially when I smack her ass)

On this note: Paris Hilton was the Grand Marshal of the WeHo Pride Parade. Do we expect her to espouse our politics? God. I. Hope. Not.

[Jack]

I wonder if either of them, or any of their friends, or aquantances, or associates, or family , or agents, access this site ? Or any BF site which might be currently discussing this issue.

I wonder what THEY would make of this thread?

I wonder , would THEY respond. Would THEY clarify ?

Would they defend, would they respond , Would they learn something ?

Would they even have to ?

Would it help ?

I would love it if they strolled in right now, sat on the couch with us all and took this to the next stage.

[Bit]

Originally Posted by Jack

I wonder if either of them, or any of their friends, or aquantances, or associates, or family , or agents, access this site ? Or any BF site which might be currently discussing this issue.

I wonder what THEY would make of this thread?

As far as I could tell, Jack, they don't actually identify as Butch and Femme, so they might not come here at all. But wouldn't it be interesting if they did come to the Planet?

[Jack]

Originally Posted by Bit

As far as I could tell, Jack, they don't actually identify as Butch and Femme, so they might not come here at all. But wouldn't it be interesting if they did come to the Planet?

Yes, it would be interesting and we would give them a warm and friendly welcome !

[Bit]

I went to the Advocate and read the whole article. Here's the part which seems most relevant to me.

If there was any surprise among Nixon’s fans upon seeing her with Marinoni, it was that she’s clearly different than the women we’re used to seeing Nixon with. Marinoni dresses in men’s clothes. She looks butch. She’d clearly be the odd woman out at brunch with Miranda, Samantha, Charlotte, and Carrie.

“She’s basically a short man with boobs,” Nixon says, laughing.

http://www.advocate.com/Print_Issue/Cover_Stories/Cynthia_Nixon_is_More_Than_Just_Sex/

It seems to me the interviewer led Nixon to this statement; to me the interviewer was saying, "most people see you as this character in a show, and they expect you to be seen with other similar characters... what do you think people will see when you are out with your partner?"

I read her response as saying, "most people will see a short man with boobs." Now I get it that she actually said "she's basically a...." but I think that was clumsy language. When people are laughing, they're not necessarily careful how they phrase their sentences, yanno? It really seems to me that she meant that people would expect to see her with stereotypically beautiful actresses, and would think she was instead with a man who had boobs.

Because that's the way I read the article, it also seems to me that she herself was not categorizing her partner as much as she was commenting on the way other people categorize her partner. People have categorized some of my exes in a similar way; I mean seriously, how can a person look at someone wearing women's earrings and a pink women's sweatshirt, someone who has a nicely prominent female chest, and say "sir"? How can they continue to say "sir" even after the person speaks in a clearly female voice?

So if this is the way Nixon intended to be understood, then I have a shared experience with her because I also have seen other people assume that a lesbian is a man with boobs. It was diminishing to the lesbian in question, and she was quite vocal about hating it... but I have also known other lesbians, especially Butches, who have had similar experiences and have just laughed it off.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Dylan

Heart,

I totally get what you're saying, and I agree with you 100% if we're speaking generally.

Where I disagree with you 100% is that this comment was made about an individual by an individual who has wayyyyyyyy more intimate knowledge of the person in question. We have absolutely no idea how this particular couple sees themselves.

If Mahhh Woman called me a man without a penis, or a woman with boobs, or whatever, it's between us, and has nada to do with how the rest of the trans community sees the comment. It's nunya's business how Mahhh Woman and I interact with one another and how we refer to eachother.

Now, if Nixon or Mahhh Woman said it about all butches, or all transfolks, I'd have a problem with it...but she didn't.

But yeah, I totally agree with you in a generally-speaking sense.


Not That Mahhh Opinion Matters At All To You, But Jus' Sayin',
Dylan

P.S. I'd probably also feel differently if this comment had come from an activist in the community or someone of that stature...an actual 'representative' of the community...but it's just Cynthia Nixon. Like someone else mentioned, she's about as important to me as Anne Heche.

OK, I believe I get what you are saying Dylan, but the thing is there are hundred of headlines reading

"Nixon calls her Lesbian Lover (and variations thereof) A Man Without Boobs."

So if a famous partner of a trans man was in an interview and said about her/his/pronoun of choice partner "he's basically a man without a dick, and what I love about him is his transness."

So all the trans people out there would get to see this headline:
"Famous Person X calls Trans Lover a Man Without A Dick

How is that going to make transmen and transwomen feel? Are they just going to shrug it off and say oh well that's between the two.

I'm not trans but personally wouldn't want to see a headline like that over and over one bit.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by BullDog

OK, I believe I get what you are saying Dylan, but the thing is there are hundred of headlines reading

"Nixon calls her Lesbian Lover (and variations thereof) A Man Without Boobs."

So if a famous partner of a trans man was in an interview and said about her/his/pronoun of choice partner "he's basically a man without a dick, and what I love about him is his transness."

So all the trans people out there would get to see this headline:
"Famous Person X calls Trans Lover a Man Without A Dick

How is that going to make transmen and transwomen feel? Are they just going to shrug it off and say oh well that's between the two.

I'm not trans but personally wouldn't want to see a headline like that over and over one bit.

You've brought this analogy up umpteen times in this thread, so I'll answer you from my ME place. But shock of all shocks, I'll bet 1/2 of Transdom would disagree with me (if they actually cared about Cynthia Nixon's commentary).

If Famous X person were on the same level in which I place Cynthia Nixon, then I would, as a transperson, not give a rat's ass about the comment either. Is Famous X person talking about his/her/per's partner in the same context as Cynthia Nixon's comment? Then I don't really give a shit.

Is he/she/per talking about all of transmen? Then I give a rip. Are we talking Cynthia Nixon or SomeoneOfSubstanceThatActuallyMatters? Because I care about the latter but not so much about the former. Need proof? No one flipped out in this thread when Superfemme discussed her Beloved's 'boobs'. And I actually care what Superfemme has to say much moreso than Cynthia Nixon.

And here's the other thing...the ONLY place I've seen this headline over and over and over is when I googled it after Heart started this thread. I haven't heard hide nor hair of this comment until this thread was started...nor WOULD I have heard about it as I just don't give a rat's ass about Cynthia Freakin' Nixon or her partner. This comment certainly wasn't slapped across any of the newspapers I saw this morning. Haven't heard about it plastered all over the radio. Haven't seen it at all on the television. It wasn't worthy enough to make it on yahoo's front page. Seriously, where is it that this headline is just being blasted over and over besides google or another search engine? What? TMZ? That show is not allowed to be played in this house.

There's REAL queer things going on in the world that actually affect me on a personal level, and NONE of them have squat to do with some 15 minutes of fame 'celebrity' who's run her course (another Anne Heche connection).

It's funny to me that we have this whole breakdown of this one little sound-bytey snippet, but why have we NEVER broken down how vapid and sexist the show is that made this woman famous? Because there's a fucking conversation worth having.


Seriously, WHO CARES How This Woman Refers To Her Partner?,
Dylan

And just to add...again, this woman has been out for a couple/few years. She's not going to have done the same research someone who's been out for a bajillion years. She's also probably (assumption) more insulated from 'average' queers given her celebrity status. I mean, it's not like she can comfortably just waltz into tons of queer space with a myriad of different queers. Again, I take seriously very little of what 'apprentice' queers have to say.

[BullDog]

OK thanks for the reply Dylan.

----------

All the comments being made about Nixon's partner out in cyberspace are that she is ugly and looks like a 12 year old boy. How. Original.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by BullDog

All the comments being made about Nixon's partner out in cyberspace are that she is ugly and looks like a 12 year old boy. How. Original.

Yeah, I read those comments too. I have to say, the commentary from the morons pissed me off.


Total Crap,
Dylan

[BullDog]

It certainly is a hurtful comment for me to see (even if wasn't said about me personally), but I do wish the couple and their family well.

[Cyclopea]

They are a cute couple, aint they?

[WILDCAT]

... not to throw a monkey wrench into this very "lovely" conversation...

BUT, I was out tonight at my local VETS CLUB and Jeopardy was on - and someone commented on the one "GUY" on the show for having man boobs...



So, what does THAT have to do with "anything"?!! Hmmmm...
__

To me, the argument that goes on and on and on here, is so very SAD.

And depending on a multitude of factors, leads us to discourse and then of COURSE, against each other........... and CLEARLY there are ally forces in tact... We'd be fucking liars to admit that is NOT TRUE!

Regardless, we go through the same ROMP over and over. And we DO wonder sometimes why we call ourselves "community", when clearly we are not even close to being kind and/or accepting to/with each other.

It DOES remind me of the years when the gay men and gay women could NOT get along - and for it was the tragic event of AIDS that brought us all close together (as did the transgendered community).

And someone mentioned, if WE cannot get along here how can anyone else respect us, for our differences. OR/and... if we cannot accept what folks say publicly about us, and even FROM OUR OWN COMMUNITY (and there is no such thing as "perfection", it's LIVE AND LEARN BABY!), THEN YES, we are going to have to get set back YEARS for this lack of understanding when someone words things a certain way. Does it negate the "new generation" though?

Hell no! Actually, FUCK NO.

It is NOT about that. Can folks just respect that someone like Heart is standing up for OUR rights and NOT take it fucking personal? She has already said... "FINE HOWEVER, WHATEVER anyone wants to ID as..." But, really, many ARE missing the point... SOMEONE LIKE ME, LIKE IT OR NOT... as a proud lesbian BUTCH is getting the shaft. WHY take that personal if it does NOT belong to you? I don't understand that.

It seems like BOTH "SIDES" (which really SHOULD there should BE SIDES??!!) are taking things personal and being defensive, AND........... most importantly - NOT SUPPORTING EACH OTHER AS PART OF A COMMUNITY!!

You know, I am starting to wonder, IS THERE A COMMMUNITY HERE?

Gracias,
WILDCAT

[PapaC]

Originally Posted by WILDCAT

You know, I am starting to wonder, IS THERE A COMMMUNITY HERE?

Gracias,
WILDCAT

Of course there is, Wildcat. and with every community comes disagreements. I love the passion I see here (on all 'sides' if you will).

My thoughts get scrambled around all of this. So I can only go at this from a 'me' perspective/observations.

Language and construction of language is challenge even for those of us participating in some form of a queer community.. be it online or real time.

I think of the phrase as an unfortunate sound bite, in a sea of consistent, persistent sound bite(s) that attempt to 'explain' the appearance of a masculine woman. In this case, until Christine specifies anything else, I will see her/respect her as a woman.

There's a lot of erasing of butch women in masse media. Would anyone like to dispute this?

For example, when has there ever been a commercial for female hygiene that included a masculine-appearing woman? Or ANY commercial where there's a masculine woman?

There was an ad that ran in Canada for AutoTrader about 4 years ago. I encourage the curious to click through and read some of the comments.


here, I'll help:

"Lesbian? That was just a normal Canadian guy." (that response got 2 thumbs up )

"Best Canadian Commercial Ever! This is funny, it kinda looks like my Aunt!!! (She isn't a lesbian though" (nice assumption that she's a lesbian.not... is it because masculine women ONLY exist in the lesbian community? (as a former married woman, living as a straight woman, I find that equally erasing)

Face it, many people reduce and form their opinions/assumptions on sound bites and clips and see nothing else.

Some uninformed, unsophisticated folks who have some understanding of my transition assumed I had 'a dick sewn on'. Why? "Well, all you gotta do is just look at him." So in this guy's mind.... there was NO WAY I could *possibly* be as masculine looking as I was (post-hormones) without that god almighty dick. ... I'm not sure if it's a polar opposite to this or analogous but let me know.

I'm curious, and maybe some Oprah fans can jump in. But in the past year she's interviewed a couple of transmen, including Thomas who gave birth. There's been discussions and interviews with other transgendered folks, intersexed folks, etc. I *am* pleased to see our stories coming up more and more. Chaz is now in that category.

But, when was there ever an interview with a woman on Oprah where self identified butch woman had a change to discuss her story as a butch Woman with a capital W?

Finally, I want to end on this very chilling point. A factual observation that can't be denied:

Most of us are aware of about three main butch/femme related sites, and a lot of us have participated in at least two of those sites if not all three. On one site, I made the observation about a year ago that the keywords used as part of the description for the site did not include "butch woman" or "butch women" anywhere. It remains that way *to this day*.

Of the three, which one lists "Butch Women", "Lesbian Women", "Gay Women", "Femme Women" etc.. ?

You know the answer: ButchFemmePlanet.com ; in fact, in the keywords alone, "woman" or "women" is mentioned 10 times.

The other two sites I'm thinking about: not a single "woman" reference ANYwhere in the keywords.

That fact alone, in my humble opinion is equally disconcerting as Cynthia's comments about her partner, if not moreso, because I do believe as self-appointed leaders, activists, allies, etc... I do expect much more care and awareness in this matter.

Oh, and lastly? Of the two that DON'T specify "women" in the keywords, on one of those sites "male" is mentioned twice (granted, in the context of 'Female to Male' and 'Male to Female')

If anyone is curious and would like more information or would learn how to spot this, let me know. I know this techno-geeky stuff can be a bit ... daunting to some. I am personally a stickler for this information because I know that keywords and descriptions are perpetuated across the internet via search engines and blogs and what not. A lot of the time, search engines and directories is how we find each other. (Bulldog, Linus, back me up! LOL)

It might look like I'm nit picking. You bet I am. I am because I hate seeing my past, and my friends, and my allies consistently erased or misunderstood and/or under represented especially within our own back yard.

K, I'm outta steam.

Thank you again, Heart for opening this discussion.