Men with boobs.

betenoire · 05-12-2010, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaqueline

hahaha....he may wear boots also.

I am wondering why nobody (especially those who are of the "it is unacceptable to every compare a masculine woman to a man" camp) bothered to point out how uncool it is to just go about and defacto refer to every Butch (or butch) person on the planet as "he" regardless of what their own preferred pronoun is. Because -that- is one of my own pet-peeves.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BullDog

Once again, as we repeat ourselves over and over:

Well then how about I repeat my question, since you clearly did not actually read my post just now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by betenoire

But I do have a question. If comparing a masculine female to a man is upsetting...is it also upsetting when someone refers to their (female identified) lover as "Daddy" "Sir" "My Husband" etc. I get that those words do not mean "man" to us in this community - but I also get that those are words that have been used to describe men in various positions...well, for as long as those words have existed. Should we as a community reject those words? Should we be making up new words?

I'm not trying to be a shit-disturber by asking that question. I genuinely can't wrap my head around how one thing is diminishing and the other is perfectly acceptable. We cannot have it both ways.

Heart · 05-12-2010, 04:54 PM

For those who keep making this about CN, and saying that we have no idea what her personal identity and relationship is all about, you sure seem to know a lot about whether she understands BF lingo, queer culture, etc. Who the heck knows? But she is a smart, successful woman, who has supported both feminist and queer causes, and who has been in a queer relationship for quite a while now in New York City. She and her partner do not live under a rock. In light of that, I personally think her remark was careless and stupid and minimizing of masculine/butch women. I also think it probably was off-the-cuff and unintentional.

BUT as I've said 50 times in this thread, in fact I said it in my very first 2-sentence post, my point was how routine that kind of minimization is, how little we even notice it, and then how ferociously we justify it when its pointed out. This thread bears that out. We would never see this kind of response if a transman's identity was belittled, in fact I have seen the partners of transmen, often femmes, get called on the carpet and lectured about the ways that they need to uphold their partners identities.

So men's identities are delicate and valuable and must be preserved, but women's identities get no such regard. Interesting.

Anyhoo -- I think Bete asked a good question. It may be a different thread, but it's a good question. Bete - I think those words you mentioned are often erotically charged, which makes them quite different than routinely referring to butches as men I, however, would never call my female butch partner my "husband."

Heart

betenoire · 05-12-2010, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heart

Anyhoo -- I think Bete asked a good question. It may be a different thread, but it's a good question. Bete - I think those words you mentioned are often erotically charged, which makes them quite different than routinely referring to butches as men I, however, would never call my female butch partner my "husband."

Heart

What about "Dude" "Bro" "Man"? (Man as in "Don't bogart that can, man" not as in MAN) "Bud" even, as far as I'm concerned, has male connotations. That shit gets thrown around constantly, and nobody bats an eye. I still fail to see how this is any different.

Heart · 05-12-2010, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by betenoire

What about "Dude" "Bro" "Man"? (Man as in "Don't bogart that can, man" not as in MAN) "Bud" even, as far as I'm concerned, has male connotations. That shit gets thrown around constantly, and nobody bats an eye. I still fail to see how this is any different.

Hmmm... I kinda feel now like you''re just baiting me. I guess if you don't see the diff between generic "hay man," or " hey dude," and the way that CN attempted to explain/define her masculine female partner to the world as a "man with boobs" -- well, there sure isn't anything I'm gonna say that will make you see the difference.

By-the-way, recently when a male id'ed butch who is organizing on behalf of other butches of various identities referred to "brotherhood," I asked him if his organizing included "sisterhood." He allowed that it did.

Peace out dude.
Heart

betenoire · 05-12-2010, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heart

Hmmm... I kinda feel now like you''re just baiting me. I guess if you don't see the diff between generic "hay man," or " hey dude," and the way that CN attempted to explain/define her masculine female partner to the world as a "man with boobs" -- well, there sure isn't anything I'm gonna say that will make you see the difference.

By-the-way, recently when a male id'ed butch who is organizing on behalf of other butches of various identities referred to "brotherhood," I asked him if his organizing included "sisterhood." He allowed that it did.

Peace out dude.
Heart

I am not trying to bait you. I am simply drawing a parallel between describing a masculine female as "man with boobs" and referring to masculine females (regardless of their ID, level of relationship, preferred pronoun, etc) as "he" (cuz, lemme tell you - some Butches hate that) "husband" "bro" etc. BOTH of those practices insinuate that the masculine female is less....female.

And don't you ever call me dude again, are we understood? I would accept being called bitch before I would accept being called dude - now who's baiting whom?

Heart · 05-12-2010, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by betenoire

And don't you ever call me dude again, are we understood? I would accept being called bitch before I would accept being called dude - now who's baiting whom?

Huh? Attempt at levity - nothing more.

Soooooooooooooooooo.... this was fun.

betenoire · 05-12-2010, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heart

Huh? Attempt at levity - nothing more.

Soooooooooooooooooo.... this was fun.

Or you could apologise. Just a thought.

Nat · 05-12-2010, 07:01 PM

Are we holding Cynthia Nixon up to a certain standard because

she's with a butch woman?
she's a star?
she was an actor in Sex in the City?
she's a woman?

I think Heart has a point that describing a masculine woman as a "short man with boobs" is unfeminist and offensive.

If part of straight privilege is never being asked to speak for everyone who is heterosexual, is it fair for us to expect her to speak for every butch and every person who has ever loved a butch? Do you read her as defining every butch when she describes her own partner that way?

How can we encourage her to do better next time? Should we all write her letters? Books, perhaps? An invitation to join the site?

05-12-2010, 04:54 PM	#2
Heart Member How Do You Identify?: Femme Relationship Status: rainbows! Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: NY Posts: 466 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 303 Thanked 2,522 Times in 409 Posts Rep Power: 12032610	hello again For those who keep making this about CN, and saying that we have no idea what her personal identity and relationship is all about, you sure seem to know a lot about whether she understands BF lingo, queer culture, etc. Who the heck knows? But she is a smart, successful woman, who has supported both feminist and queer causes, and who has been in a queer relationship for quite a while now in New York City. She and her partner do not live under a rock. In light of that, I personally think her remark was careless and stupid and minimizing of masculine/butch women. I also think it probably was off-the-cuff and unintentional. BUT as I've said 50 times in this thread, in fact I said it in my very first 2-sentence post, my point was how routine that kind of minimization is, how little we even notice it, and then how ferociously we justify it when its pointed out. This thread bears that out. We would never see this kind of response if a transman's identity was belittled, in fact I have seen the partners of transmen, often femmes, get called on the carpet and lectured about the ways that they need to uphold their partners identities. So men's identities are delicate and valuable and must be preserved, but women's identities get no such regard. Interesting. Anyhoo -- I think Bete asked a good question. It may be a different thread, but it's a good question. Bete - I think those words you mentioned are often erotically charged, which makes them quite different than routinely referring to butches as men I, however, would never call my female butch partner my "husband." Heart

05-12-2010, 07:01 PM	#8
Nat Senior Member How Do You Identify?: bigender (DID System) Preferred Pronoun?: he/him or alter-specific Relationship Status: Unavailable Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Central TX Posts: 3,537 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 11,047 Thanked 13,971 Times in 2,591 Posts Rep Power: 21474855	Are we holding Cynthia Nixon up to a certain standard because she's with a butch woman? she's a star? she was an actor in Sex in the City? she's a woman? I think Heart has a point that describing a masculine woman as a "short man with boobs" is unfeminist and offensive. If part of straight privilege is never being asked to speak for everyone who is heterosexual, is it fair for us to expect her to speak for every butch and every person who has ever loved a butch? Do you read her as defining every butch when she describes her own partner that way? How can we encourage her to do better next time? Should we all write her letters? Books, perhaps? An invitation to join the site? __________________ I'm a fountain of blood. In the shape of a girl. - Bjork What is to give light must endure burning. -Viktor Frankl