Men with boobs.

[Heart]

Originally Posted by Nat

Are we holding Cynthia Nixon up to a certain standard because

she's with a butch woman?
she's a star?
she was an actor in Sex in the City?
she's a woman?

I think Heart has a point that describing a masculine woman as a "short man with boobs" is unfeminist and offensive.

If part of straight privilege is never being asked to speak for everyone who is heterosexual, is it fair for us to expect her to speak for every butch and every person who has ever loved a butch? Do you read her as defining every butch when she describes her own partner that way?

How can we encourage her to do better next time? Should we all write her letters? Books, perhaps? An invitation to join the site?

I'm going to say this one last time and then I'm out cause I'm finally pissed (not at you Nat).

I am NOT NOT NOT holding CN up to any standard for any reason. I used her comments (which I do obviously have an opinion about) to make a point about US, about OUR community, about the continual erasure of female/masculine/butch identities. This thread bears that out and I am holding THIS COMMUNITY up to a standard.

I'm pissed because so many responders here lectured me about accepting individual identities, or claimed that there's nothing to address unless we know all about the personal nature of CN and CM's relationship, or called me hysterical, or demanded an apology because I used the word "dude," while its a-okay to call a butch a "short man with boobs."

My intent was continually derailed because basically no one wants to have this conversation. Would it have been SOOOOO hard to stop for a second and consider what I'm saying? That masculine women identified butches are not men, and do not need to be compared to men in order to be defined or understood. That's it. What is so freakin' hard to understand? What is the argument? Why is there such a knee-jerk reaction every damn time the words "woman" and "butch" are brought up in the same sentence? I don't even get where the combativeness comes from.

Contact Cynthia Nixon, but I have no idea what anyone's point to her will be. Certainly not the point I'm making, since that has been hopelessly obscured.

[Toughy]

by Heart
My intent was continually derailed because basically no one wants to have this conversation. Would it have been SOOOOO hard to stop for a second and consider what I'm saying? That masculine women identified butches are not men, and do not need to be compared to men in order to be defined or understood. That's it. What is so freakin' hard to understand? What is the argument? Why is there such a knee-jerk reaction every damn time the words "woman" and "butch" are brought up in the same sentence? I don't even get where the combativeness comes from.

...........word.............

[Nat]

Originally Posted by Heart

I'm going to say this one last time and then I'm out cause I'm finally pissed (not at you Nat).

I am NOT NOT NOT holding CN up to any standard for any reason. I used her comments (which I do obviously have an opinion about) to make a point about US, about OUR community, about the continual erasure of female/masculine/butch identities. This thread bears that out and I am holding THIS COMMUNITY up to a standard.

I'm pissed because so many responders here lectured me about accepting individual identities, or claimed that there's nothing to address unless we know all about the personal nature of CN and CM's relationship, or called me hysterical, or demanded an apology because I used the word "dude," while its a-okay to call a butch a "short man with boobs."

My intent was continually derailed because basically no one wants to have this conversation. Would it have been SOOOOO hard to stop for a second and consider what I'm saying? That masculine women identified butches are not men, and do not need to be compared to men in order to be defined or understood. That's it. What is so freakin' hard to understand? What is the argument? Why is there such a knee-jerk reaction every damn time the words "woman" and "butch" are brought up in the same sentence? I don't even get where the combativeness comes from.

Contact Cynthia Nixon, but I have no idea what anyone's point to her will be. Certainly not the point I'm making, since that has been hopelessly obscured.

Heart - I understand and agree with the bolded part and I applaud your efforts in this thread.

I think what's going on in this thread is complex and interesting.

I think bringing CN into this has brought up a lot of other issues and values that many of us differ on. I don't even know where I would personally begin untangling it, and I think it's likely that you would find it frustrating if I tried.

I do think that you are thinking on sort of a double-meta level, and when you pulled a real world example, you got a lot of different reactions because we all value different things and we are all at different points in the conversation, in our identities, in our experiences, etc.

I'm sorry you're frustrated.

[Arwen]

Originally Posted by Heart

My intent was continually derailed because basically no one wants to have this conversation. Would it have been SOOOOO hard to stop for a second and consider what I'm saying? That masculine women identified butches are not men, and do not need to be compared to men in order to be defined or understood. That's it. What is so freakin' hard to understand? What is the argument? Why is there such a knee-jerk reaction every damn time the words "woman" and "butch" are brought up in the same sentence? I don't even get where the combativeness comes from.

Contact Cynthia Nixon, but I have no idea what anyone's point to her will be. Certainly not the point I'm making, since that has been hopelessly obscured.

Heart, I am going to tell you that I think you are being unfair and single-minded in your quest to make others agree with you rather than actually discuss this. Do you honestly want discussion or do you want conversion on this topic? Because I'm not sure. My gut reaction is that you want discussion but it feels like conversion to me. I own that reaction might simply be my own baggage.

I think there is a created hatred between female-id butches and masculine-id butches. I'm not sure who or how or why it got created, but it is a virus in our community.

Personally, I ask folks how they id if they are of the butch persuasion. Yes, I will default to he because I'm lazy--not because I devalue women. However, I also ask people which pronoun they prefer because that's important to me--to use the language they want used.

However, I often feel as though in threads like this, I'm supposed to feel guilty or sorry for female-id butches who are called he. I also feel that I'm supposed to feel guilty or sorry for masculine-id butches who get called she.

Sometimes I don't think I can win at this contrived freaking id game. I really don't.

And I am not sure I want to.

Now before anyone jumps down my throat, let me explain why.

I'm freaking tired of the id game. I battle my own id war all the time (except when I am in a specifically BF group) so sometimes, you will have to forgive me for not giving a rat's patootie about anyone else's id.

I do stand for someone's right to be called what they want. I do honor a person's choice in their id.

I do not honor the notion that because X, Y and X butches are female-id, it means A, B, and C's masculinity is feminized. How can one person's personal choice of id be affected by someone's else's?

I guess I'm truly tired right now and this discussion is working my last queer nerve.

Bottom line. I can see where calling a butch woman a "man with boobs" is offensive. I believe I even said that here. I will remove the personalization inherently added by the fact that it was said by someone in the news. I will remove the personalization of wondering whether or not her partner gives a flying rat's patoot about it.

I just wonder if we will ever have a day, an hour, a nanosecond where my choice of id doesn't interfere with your(generic) choice of id.

If I can state that I don't id as a (fill in the blank), without pissing off/offending/hurting all those who do id as a (fill in the same blank).

That's what I get so damned tired of. Linus' id doesn't affect Jackhammer's. Jackhammer's doesn't affect Met's. Met's doesn't affect Boots13. ad nauseum

Does anyone think we can ever get there? Where we don't even need discussions about female-id vs butch-id? Where it just doesn't freaking matter?

I just get so tired.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by Arwen

However, I often feel as though in threads like this, I'm supposed to feel guilty or sorry for female-id butches who are called he.

i think what you're supposed to do is recognize that it's sexist. I doubt that the butches want or need your sympathy.

[Arwen]

Originally Posted by Martina

i think what you're supposed to do is recognize that it's sexist. I doubt that the butches want or need your sympathy.

On which side? I mean...if you are going to tell me what I should see something as, maybe you could be a bit more forthcoming with the rules?

[BullDog]

We don't want anyone to fucking feel sorry for us or feel guilty. Can we get some fucking respect? Apparently not. I'm really, really, really pissed at all the disrespect, combativeness and dismissive way masculine women and butch women are being treated- not that it's anything new- and no I'm not talking about Cynthia Nixon.

Roger. Over and Out.

[Arwen]

Originally Posted by BullDog

We don't want anyone to fucking feel sorry for us or feel guilty. Can we get some fucking respect? Apparently not. I really, really, really pissed at all the disrespect, combativeness and dismissive way masculine women and butch women are being treated- not that it's anything new.

Roger. Over and Out.

See? Here's the deal. You can't tell me what or how to feel. You have no control over that. It's my reactions to what I read and how I perceive things.

If I choose to be sad that others feel disrespected, that's my hula hoop--not yours. Please do not tell me what to say or think or feel and I will do my best to return that favor.

You react how you want. I will react how I want. I am expressing my opinion. You are taking it personally.

Why?

[Jett]

Originally Posted by Arwen

See? Here's the deal. You can't tell me what or how to feel. You have no control over that. It's my reactions to what I read and how I perceive things.

If I choose to be sad that others feel disrespected, that's my hula hoop--not yours. Please do not tell me what to say or think or feel and I will do my best to return that favor.

You react how you want. I will react how I want. I am expressing my opinion. You are taking it personally.

Why?

Actually... not to be nick picky but you said (my highlights)

"...I often feel as though in threads like this, I'm supposed to feel guilty or sorry for female-id butches who are called he. I also feel that I'm supposed to feel guilty or sorry for masculine-id butches who get called she."

Yeah, what-ever the ID, male-female I don't really think any butches are looking for anybody to feel guilty or sorry for them...

I know I sure as hell don't need it *lol*... really I don't have a damn thing to feel sorry about. I'm pretty damn happy to be me, probably to a fault. If I make a statement I don't like AB or C that ain't whinin' that's just me bitchin'...

Don't feel bad about that... I sure don't.
Metro

[apretty]

1. with regards to pronouns: i ask, prior and i default 'she' for butches because i know more 'she' than 'he/hy' butches and while 'he' seems a the go-to pronoun 'online' --i like continuity (and newsflash: she does not equal less-than).

2. i think the importance in talking about how/why x-person says her partner is 'a man' with a one small detail like *boobs* comes down to the *qualifying* your female partner (as man-but-for) makes your relationship less-than authentic in the eyes of the average and straight reader.

also, it defeats the purpose of being an OUT "lesbian" --and this is what nixon talked about for a good part of the interview (that both partners desired to be *out* and prior, nixon's manager/publicist person had discouraged her from disclosing her relationship.).

3. so, whether or not she 'chose' to be the spokesperson for 'female and gay' --a big article in the ADVOCATE will spotlight what you're doing/what it's all about/what it looks like/sounds like/feels like to the person unfamiliar with female masculinity.


full quote:

"She's basically a short man with boobs. A lot of what I love about her is her butchness. I'm not saying I fell in love with her in a sexually neutral way. I love her sexuality - it's a big part of what I love about her - but I feel like it was her. It wasn't something in me that was waiting to come out. It was like, 'This person is undeniable. How can I let this person walk by?'

finally, i find it curious that nixon reduces her partner to male/female body parts while she resists fully owning her sexuality, instead places it square on the shoulders of her partner: "...i feel like it was her. it wasn't something in me..."

*and i'm not a big sex/the city fan, to be fair. (not sure if that matters)

[Jett]

Originally Posted by Martina

i think what you're supposed to do is recognize that it's sexist. I doubt that the butches want or need your sympathy.

Right, what she said... thanks Martina.

I'm not sure where things come off as looking for anything but recognition of the issues put forth. Truth, maybe if more peeps could get past trying to read in between the lines conversations like these would get so fucky nuts in the first place.

Sez me who's pretty damn tired of these convos as well, wish there wasn't a need for them, but there is.
Metro

[Cyclopea]

Me: in red.

Originally Posted by Arwen

Heart, I am going to tell you that I think you are being unfair and single-minded in your quest to make others agree with you rather than actually discuss this. Can you explain in what way you feel a sense of unfairness in the points Heart has articulated? Specifically unfair to whom and in what way. I'm confused by your charge and would like to understand your point of view...Do you honestly want discussion or do you want conversion on this topic? Because I'm not sure. My gut reaction is that you want discussion but it feels like conversion to me. I own that reaction might simply be my own baggage.Again, I'm confused by the discussion vs. conversion that you bring up. A clearly articulated point of view in a discussion could "convert" or change a point of view I suppose but it seems like in your context you mean something coercive? And I would like to understand what you mean.

I think there is a created hatred between female-id butches and masculine-id butches. I'm not sure who or how or why it got created, but it is a virus in our community.My perspective is different on this and I hope your sense of hatred in our community is not true. As a butch woman I feel respected and supported by many men and males in this community, and I certainly hope others feel the same.

Personally, I ask folks how they id if they are of the butch persuasion. Yes, I will default to he because I'm lazy--not because I devalue women. However, I also ask people which pronoun they prefer because that's important to me--to use the language they want used.You say you default to he because you are lazy, but why choose he over she? Why not default to she out of laziness? Or was it a coin flip situation? Maybe you could default to he half of the time, and she the other, or at least randomize the laziness? Why privilege he?

However, I often feel as though in threads like this, I'm supposed to feel guilty or sorry for female-id butches who are called he. I also feel that I'm supposed to feel guilty or sorry for masculine-id butches who get called she.
If I decide to call everyone on this site including yourself "he" because it is easier for me and you correct me, should I feel guilty? Should I pity you? What if I just call everyone "it"?
Sometimes I don't think I can win at this contrived freaking id game. I really don't. As a woman my femaleness is not "contrived". I don't understand why you think being a woman is contrived. Are you saying there is no such thing as a woman?

And I am not sure I want to.

Now before anyone jumps down my throat, let me explain why.

I'm freaking tired of the id game. I battle my own id war all the time (except when I am in a specifically BF group) so sometimes, you will have to forgive me for not giving a rat's patootie about anyone else's id. To be clear- that works both ways, right? You don't give a rat's patootie how anyone refers to you either right?

I do stand for someone's right to be called what they want. I do honor a person's choice in their id. Except that it's a contrived id that you don't give a rat's ass about?

I do not honor the notion that because X, Y and X butches are female-id, it means A, B, and C's masculinity is feminized. How can one person's personal choice of id be affected by someone's else's?I don't know- I don't see this happening but I respect that you do and maybe I am missing it.

I guess I'm truly tired right now and this discussion is working my last queer nerve.

Bottom line. I can see where calling a butch woman a "man with boobs" is offensive. I believe I even said that here. I will remove the personalization inherently added by the fact that it was said by someone in the news. I will remove the personalization of wondering whether or not her partner gives a flying rat's patoot about it.
You say that you can see where the particular example cited by the Op could be offensive. As a woman who is non-traditionally feminine I can tell you that for me personally I have received a lifetime of commentary and intrusion based on my non-conformity to socio/political ideals of what females should look like and how they should behave. Much of this commentary centers on the idea that I am less than a "real" woman, ergo male. Yet I am not male. I am but one variation of all the things that are female. I am damn tired of being told I am less of a woman. Damn tired. And I come to this community for support and sisterhood from other butch women and our allies. Not to be told I am a male. Not deliberately out of hatred as happens in my everyday lesbophobic mysogynist culture, and not because someone is too "lazy" to remember that women exist.

I just wonder if we will ever have a day, an hour, a nanosecond where my choice of id doesn't interfere with your(generic) choice of id.

If I can state that I don't id as a (fill in the blank), without pissing off/offending/hurting all those who do id as a (fill in the same blank).

That's what I get so damned tired of. Linus' id doesn't affect Jackhammer's. Jackhammer's doesn't affect Met's. Met's doesn't affect Boots13. ad nauseum

Does anyone think we can ever get there? Where we don't even need discussions about female-id vs butch-id? Where it just doesn't freaking matter?I'm not sure what you mean by female-id vs. butch id. I think all the butch women responding here are both female and butch. Can you please explain what you mean by female vs. butch? I would like to understand.

I just get so tired.

I don't get tired of respecting other community members be they femme, butch, androgynist, bisexual, lesbian, male, woman, female, no gender, men, intersexed, or whatever. I feel energized by the diversity of this community, not taxed and exhausted. Is there anything we can do to help you feel better? What would make the diversity feel better for you?

[Jett]

Originally Posted by Arwen

Heart, I am going to tell you that I think you are being unfair and single-minded in your quest to make others agree with you rather than actually discuss this. Do you honestly want discussion or do you want conversion on this topic? Because I'm not sure. My gut reaction is that you want discussion but it feels like conversion to me. I own that reaction might simply be my own baggage.

I think there is a created hatred between female-id butches and masculine-id butches. I'm not sure who or how or why it got created, but it is a virus in our community.

Personally, I ask folks how they id if they are of the butch persuasion. Yes, I will default to he because I'm lazy--not because I devalue women. However, I also ask people which pronoun they prefer because that's important to me--to use the language they want used.

However, I often feel as though in threads like this, I'm supposed to feel guilty or sorry for female-id butches who are called he. I also feel that I'm supposed to feel guilty or sorry for masculine-id butches who get called she.

Sometimes I don't think I can win at this contrived freaking id game. I really don't.

And I am not sure I want to.

Now before anyone jumps down my throat, let me explain why.

I'm freaking tired of the id game. I battle my own id war all the time (except when I am in a specifically BF group) so sometimes, you will have to forgive me for not giving a rat's patootie about anyone else's id.

I do stand for someone's right to be called what they want. I do honor a person's choice in their id.

I do not honor the notion that because X, Y and X butches are female-id, it means A, B, and C's masculinity is feminized. How can one person's personal choice of id be affected by someone's else's?

I guess I'm truly tired right now and this discussion is working my last queer nerve.

Bottom line. I can see where calling a butch woman a "man with boobs" is offensive. I believe I even said that here. I will remove the personalization inherently added by the fact that it was said by someone in the news. I will remove the personalization of wondering whether or not her partner gives a flying rat's patoot about it.

I just wonder if we will ever have a day, an hour, a nanosecond where my choice of id doesn't interfere with your(generic) choice of id.

If I can state that I don't id as a (fill in the blank), without pissing off/offending/hurting all those who do id as a (fill in the same blank).

That's what I get so damned tired of. Linus' id doesn't affect Jackhammer's. Jackhammer's doesn't affect Met's. Met's doesn't affect Boots13. ad nauseum

Does anyone think we can ever get there? Where we don't even need discussions about female-id vs butch-id? Where it just doesn't freaking matter?

I just get so tired.

I said this essentially to you privately, but I'm going to state it here because it's important to me (with addition).

As far as ID goes... I'm butch... not a game it's just life, and my sex and gender are not my ID... they are what they are, neither a game nor a choice to be played out for anyone else to win or lose at.

I take it seriously, yep... and I expect respect around them... and I won't accept any less. I don't expect any less from myself in interaction with others either... golden rule thing, do unto others and all, it works for me.

That's why I'm in this conversation when I'd rather be well, doing just about anything else.

More importantly, I also stated I don't think or see a "hatred between" ID's... sure there's some peeps with insecurities and some peeps are maybe just cranky but I personally have friends of all ID's here... because they are good peeps male and female alike. I think that's pretty important to make clear.

I have issues with other things you said, but quite honestly, it's late, it's not worth it to me and life's too damn short as it is.

Metropolis

[Martina]

Originally Posted by Arwen

I think there is a created hatred between female-id butches and masculine-id butches. I'm not sure who or how or why it got created, but it is a virus in our community.

This almost implies that it just sort of happened like a disease. It denies any kind of gender hierarchy and the fact that sexism is behind it. WHY is there some discord in the first place? Because there has been a history -- not too long and only in some communities, but quite REAL -- of devaluing women-identified butches. When women identified butches started objecting and even organizing a little bit, they were accused of inserting HATE into the dialogue. That's classic privilege at work.

Originally Posted by Arwen

How can one person's personal choice of id be affected by someone's else's?

. . .

I just wonder if we will ever have a day, an hour, a nanosecond where my choice of id doesn't interfere with your(generic) choice of id.

If I can state that I don't id as a (fill in the blank), without pissing off/offending/hurting all those who do id as a (fill in the same blank).

The fact IS that woman-ID'd butches were erased in some communities, and their speaking up seems to bother some people. You seem to want to understand their speaking up about this erasure as if it were an objection to how others ID. It is not that. And it's offensive to frame it that way. It's not an attack. It's not an expression of hatred. Calling it that is such a classic defense that people who do not want a group to speak about their lives and their truths use.

My sense is that most woman-identified butches want to be respected, to not be called by masculine pronouns, and to not have certain assumptions placed on them. Somehow that gets experienced as a rebuke to how others ID. It is not.

Originally Posted by Arwen

Does anyone think we can ever get there? Where we don't even need discussions about female-id vs butch-id? Where it just doesn't freaking matter?

When the problem is solved, yes, it will go away. Not until then. i don't think women-identified butches are going to volunteer for erasure just so some people will feel better. (i note your Freudian slip -- female-id vs. butch-id).

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by Martina

This almost implies that it just sort of happened like a disease. It denies any kind of gender hierarchy and the fact that sexism is behind it. WHY is there some discord in the first place? Because there has been a history -- not too long and only in some communities, but quite REAL -- of devaluing women-identified butches. When women identified butches started objecting and even organizing a little bit, they were accused of inserting HATE into the dialogue. That's classic privilege at work.

This feels like the chicken and the egg with me...was there was no discord before the male-identified butches took it upon themselves to devalue the female-identified butches? Or are you saying society in general devalued female-identified butches and then it was basically 'on'. I wasn't around then and, though I know some of my community's history, I could definitely learn more.

I understand what Arwen was saying, I think, and I also feel as if there's a line drawn in the sand. No, we don't want anyone to address 'us' as 'them'. It's one thing to want to be called what I id as (and I think that most of us do try to do our best to respect our peers and address them as they'd like to be seen) and another to automatically look to the other party in a less than respectful way because someone slipped up and called us the wrong pronoun or label or whatever it was in that moment.

There seems, to me, to be less of "Hey, that's not how I id. Please call me this next time, okay?" and more of "Ewwww! That's not how I id! Don't call me THAT!" Whether it comes from male-identified butches or female-identified butches, it's not a nice thing. There's more tolerance for straight people looking in than those within our own circle. That feels like we're tearing our own community apart and for what? To say "I'm right!" basically. Why can't we all be right (for ourselves) and let everyone else, be it female-identified or male-identified or kiwi-identified or any other number of identities...why can't we just accept one another? It's like we're eroded our community from the inside out....like a virus.

The fact IS that woman-ID'd butches were erased in some communities, and their speaking up seems to bother some people. You seem to want to understand their speaking up about this erasure as if it were an objection to how others ID. It is not that. And it's offensive to frame it that way. It's not an attack. It's not an expression of hatred. Calling it that is such a classic defense that people who do not want a group to speak about their lives and their truths use.

My sense is that most woman-identified butches want to be respected, to not be called by masculine pronouns, and to not have certain assumptions placed on them. Somehow that gets experienced as a rebuke to how others ID. It is not.

I read the last couple of paragraphs and I'm sure that my first response is what may seem like a perfect example of what you speak of. Except it's not.

Arwen spoke of not letting how one person identifies affecting her identity and that is true for all of us. Your identity shouldn't affect mine and vise versa, but somehow....especially with female and male-identified butches, this seems to me to play out differently. Almost as if one can't exist without the other but there's still that immediate rejection of the other. I'm not finding the right words I fear to express my thoughts as well as they could (like Arwen was, I'm a bit tired).

How does one say THIS is how I identify without it sounding like AND YOU SHOULD TOO or giving off the feeling that one person's chosen id is better than another's?

Someone...bete?...said that calling her partner he creates invisibility for her and I see that. I've fought against it and, at other times, have hidden behind it when it felt safer to do so. That's a privilege that many don't have and I am aware of it and have been grateful and hateful of it too.

I tend to default to male pronouns as well. I know more male-identified or masculine preferring butches than female-identified butches in my own bubble. However, I respect that butch does not equal he and adjust the way I address someone if I know their identity and preference BUT in the case where I'm speaking of someone and they are not there to ask and no one else knows their preference I'll either say he (that's my default showing) or their screen name. When I get the chance to ask them personally, I will.

I'm not perfect by any standards (defaulting to he OR she is wrong, imo) but why can't there be less finger wagging and talking down to and more person to person conversing?

I'm asking this of you, Martina, not only because some of your post sparked something in me but because I feel that you may have an answer that would help me to understand better. I'm not coming from an argumentative place and I hope that that is not how I read. I'm genuinely curious.

[BullDog]

Personally all the female-identified, woman-identified, etc jargon does not at all reflect ME. No offense intended to those who find personal meaning in those terms.

I have yet to hear one single butch ever say they are engaged in some sort of war.

I don't identify as a woman- I AM a woman. I live my life as a woman, as a masculine woman, as a Butch. It's not something I "identify with." I live it.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by Gemme

How does one say THIS is how I identify without it sounding like AND YOU SHOULD TOO or giving off the feeling that one person's chosen id is better than another's?

i think it's possible. i think a lot of people successfully do this. The problems come when you ASSUME others are or should be like you are.

Originally Posted by Gemme

I'm not perfect by any standards (defaulting to he OR she is wrong, imo) but why can't there be less finger wagging and talking down to and more person to person conversing?

It's not just an individual issue. It has social meaning when we default to "he." It defines the norm. Defining the norm as "he" is, for one thing, not statistically accurate. BY FAR, there are more butches who use female pronouns. It also is coercive in the context of right now -- our time, our place. It has cultural meaning.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Martina

This almost implies that it just sort of happened like a disease. It denies any kind of gender hierarchy and the fact that sexism is behind it. WHY is there some discord in the first place? Because there has been a history -- not too long and only in some communities, but quite REAL -- of devaluing women-identified butches. When women identified butches started objecting and even organizing a little bit, they were accused of inserting HATE into the dialogue. That's classic privilege at work.

Most certainly is. And one excusing their laziness about using female pronouns takes the cake with exercising privilege. Arwen, I have always thought very highly of you and actually understand part of your response. But, This statement was so dismissive, I could not believe it came from you at all.

What would a male-identified or TG butch think and feel if i just said, Oh, sorry, its just too damn difficult to respect part of who you are... don't take it personally.

The fact IS that woman-ID'd butches were erased in some communities, and their speaking up seems to bother some people. You seem to want to understand their speaking up about this erasure as if it were an objection to how others ID. It is not that. And it's offensive to frame it that way. It's not an attack. It's not an expression of hatred. Calling it that is such a classic defense that people who do not want a group to speak about their lives and their truths use.

No, our speaking up has not one damn thing to do with objecting to how other's ID. I get really tired of this assumption and I don't believe that male-IDed/transmen are taking pot shots at my identity when they speak their personal truth. Again, this attitude is from a place of privilege.

My sense is that most woman-identified butches want to be respected, to not be called by masculine pronouns, and to not have certain assumptions placed on them. Somehow that gets experienced as a rebuke to how others ID. It is not.

You got it!



When the problem is solved, yes, it will go away. Not until then. i don't think women-identified butches are going to volunteer for erasure just so some people will feel better. (i note your Freudian slip -- female-id vs. butch-id).

True... on both counts. And we are not.

Something that comes up for me time and again is that I can have this conversation with male-identified butches and transmen outside of a B-F website without these kinds of statements and assumptions. In fact, I find alot of sincere understanding between us all more often than not. I get pissed when I hear blanket statements about hatred among us. There has been a lot of work done among us. And I won't stand for that to be erased either.

[Nat]

This community is really interesting because it bridges some real gaps in society. Each of us has had real-world lived experiences that vary greatly from the cisgender hetero "norm." *In some cases, those experiences vary even more greatly from those of others' in our community. *

On each of our individual paths, we have learned things of value at least to ourselves and hopefully, if shared, to others as well. *I think there are issues with "hearing" each other over the noise, walls and distances created by our own experiences, knowledge, education, age/generation, affinities, alliances, communities, values, etc. *

Complicating these divisions is the fact that many people when defining their own identity have incorporated into that identity a devaluation of the things they are not. *I think this is part of the trap of living as an "other" - not only is there a tendency to self-oppress, but there is a tendency to oppress other "others" in an attempt to feel validated.

I think exposure to this community does a great job of helping people reconstruct/clarify their identities in ways that do not subconsciously negate the identities of others. *When I run into people in the real world who do not participate in this sort of online interaction or have significant community exposure, there is a big difference in the level of critical thinking that goes on regarding gender, identity, sexuality and community. *Even when it's frustrating, the conversations here and in communities like this are ultimately productive and meaningful.

I have seen over time people of many different orientations and gender identities feel negated, invisibilized, put down, disrespected, unaccepted and unheard. I have felt all of those things myself as I have struggled with my own gender identity and really questioned whether I have a place here at all. *("here" = not "here" at this site, but within the online community which comprised many of the same people as this site currently comprises). *When I came out of the closet, I thought that was going to be my biggest, most freeing moment. *I came running into the arms of a community that I somehow imagined was a sort of wonderland of acceptance. *It's not. *

When I "came out" about feeling like a guy on the inside, well. *It was messy. *I was in a bad place. *I was in a sort of crisis with my gender. *Where I felt like coming out would mean finally being accepted and possibly loved for who I was, I realized at that point - the only person likely to accept me entirely for who I am - is gonna be me. *The only person capable of respecting where I'm coming from without trying to negate it - is gonna be me. *What made that more true was the fact that in an attempt to express what was going on with me, I assumed that other people's reactions, interpretations, world views, opinions, levels of discomfort were intentionally negating, invisiblizing, cruel and "wrong." I didn't feel accepted or respected, and I was neither accepting nor respectful of those who didn't "hear" me. *I felt judged - I judged. *As they say, "Two wrongs don't make a right."

Then there have been other times - many many other times, when the shoe has been on the other foot. *I have been the one unable to hear, understand others within this community. *Sometimes it's because I personally feel discounted, but often it's just that there are so many gaps we are trying to cross at once - just in order to communicate about some of these issues. *I have learned over time that when I can't hear clearly and if the person or people I'm trying to "hear" are obviously not intending to be malicious, that it's worth keeping my ears open and gleaning what I can. *There are so many reasons we have gaps/noise/walls that keep us from hearing each other clearly - it may take many years to hear each other better.

I think goodwill and a willingness to listen and accept where people are coming from are really essential to the vitality of a community like ours. We are not always going to *get* each other, and I think that's a truth which doesn't necessarily have to tear us apart or lead to deep wounds or feelings of exclusion.

All this to say, my own limitations with this topic are most likely multiple. *I am a feminist who has often felt bullied by feminism. *I see Cynthia Nixon being held up as an example of something atrociously unfeminist and my first reaction is to defend her. *Feminism is great, but to me it feels like this steamroller at times and I personally just really struggle with the way in which it seems to negate the individual lived experience. *So I get stuck right there. *And I can't hear Heart. *I can't hear exactly what she's saying though I know what's sticking in my craw is not even what she's trying to say.

I know from experience that it's worth continuing to listen as long as she's willing to persist, because Heart will at times say things that are revelatory (to me) and worth the struggle it takes to bridge the gaps. *But there's a lot of personal noise for me on this topic and I know it's affecting my ability to "hear" clearly.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Nat

This community is really interesting because it bridges some real gaps in society. Each of us has had real-world lived experiences that vary greatly from the cisgender hetero "norm." *In some cases, those experiences vary even more greatly from those of others' in our community. *

On each of our individual paths, we have learned things of value at least to ourselves and hopefully, if shared, to others as well. *I think there are issues with "hearing" each other over the noise, walls and distances created by our own experiences, knowledge, education, age/generation, affinities, alliances, communities, values, etc. *

Complicating these divisions is the fact that many people when defining their own identity have incorporated into that identity a devaluation of the things they are not. *I think this is part of the trap of living as an "other" - not only is there a tendency to self-oppress, but there is a tendency to oppress other "others" in an attempt to feel validated.

I think exposure to this community does a great job of helping people reconstruct/clarify their identities in ways that do not subconsciously negate the identities of others. *When I run into people in the real world who do not participate in this sort of online interaction or have significant community exposure, there is a big difference in the level of critical thinking that goes on regarding gender, identity, sexuality and community. *Even when it's frustrating, the conversations here and in communities like this are ultimately productive and meaningful.

I have seen over time people of many different orientations and gender identities feel negated, invisibilized, put down, disrespected, unaccepted and unheard. I have felt all of those things myself as I have struggled with my own gender identity and really questioned whether I have a place here at all. *("here" = not "here" at this site, but within the online community which comprised many of the same people as this site currently comprises). *When I came out of the closet, I thought that was going to be my biggest, most freeing moment. *I came running into the arms of a community that I somehow imagined was a sort of wonderland of acceptance. *It's not. *

When I "came out" about feeling like a guy on the inside, well. *It was messy. *I was in a bad place. *I was in a sort of crisis with my gender. *Where I felt like coming out would mean finally being accepted and possibly loved for who I was, I realized at that point - the only person likely to accept me entirely for who I am - is gonna be me. *The only person capable of respecting where I'm coming from without trying to negate it - is gonna be me. *What made that more true was the fact that in an attempt to express what was going on with me, I assumed that other people's reactions, interpretations, world views, opinions, levels of discomfort were intentionally negating, invisiblizing, cruel and "wrong." I didn't feel accepted or respected, and I was neither accepting nor respectful of those who didn't "hear" me. *I felt judged - I judged. *As they say, "Two wrongs don't make a right."

Then there have been other times - many many other times, when the shoe has been on the other foot. *I have been the one unable to hear, understand others within this community. *Sometimes it's because I personally feel discounted, but often it's just that there are so many gaps we are trying to cross at once - just in order to communicate about some of these issues. *I have learned over time that when I can't hear clearly and if the person or people I'm trying to "hear" are obviously not intending to be malicious, that it's worth keeping my ears open and gleaning what I can. *There are so many reasons we have gaps/noise/walls that keep us from hearing each other clearly - it may take many years to hear each other better.

I think goodwill and a willingness to listen and accept where people are coming from are really essential to the vitality of a community like ours. We are not always going to *get* each other, and I think that's a truth which doesn't necessarily have to tear us apart or lead to deep wounds or feelings of exclusion.

All this to say, my own limitations with this topic are most likely multiple. *I am a feminist who has often felt bullied by feminism. *I see Cynthia Nixon being held up as an example of something atrociously unfeminist and my first reaction is to defend her. *Feminism is great, but to me it feels like this steamroller at times and I personally just really struggle with the way in which it seems to negate the individual lived experience. *So I get stuck right there. *And I can't hear Heart. *I can't hear exactly what she's saying though I know what's sticking in my craw is not even what she's trying to say.

I know from experience that it's worth continuing to listen as long as she's willing to persist, because Heart will at times say things that are revelatory (to me) and worth the struggle it takes to bridge the gaps. *But there's a lot of personal noise for me on this topic and I know it's affecting my ability to "hear" clearly.

I so appreciate this post! So honest and real. Touches so many things I have felt within the context of this community. Just isn't easy stuff goin' on! Thank you. I am doing a personal inventory after reading this, I sometimes need a tune-up when a thread becomes upsetting to me or I just feel alienated among my people. Yup, bridging those gaps is important!