Men with boobs.

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by betenoire

I have a question. Do we really think that men and women are that different from one another? Cuz I don't. (and yes, this is relevant)

I dare you all to name me ONE quality/trait that "belongs" to either males or to females (but never to both). And I ain't talking about manufacturing sperm or eggs, here.

p/s - did I ever tell you all about the time I had to check the oil in my car on the side of the road and I wiped the dipstick on the bandana that was holding back my hair? the (trans)guy who was with me on that road trip said that I was soooooo Butch. I said that he was sooooo walking back to Vancouver if he didn't take it back.

Sometimes I wonder if there is even such a thing as Butch or Femme traits. This week I feel like there isn't.

I have sat here pondering for a while now. I've got nothing in the matching trait department since you nixed childbirth.

But are men and women really the same as each other? If they are not that different?

I don't think so.

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

I have sat here pondering for a while now. I've got nothing in the matching trait department since you nixed childbirth.

But are men and women really the same as each other? If they are not that different?

I don't think so.

I think men and women are the same. I mean there are no emotional/character traits that a person can say "women are" or "men are" without someone knowing several instances where a woman wasn't, or a man isn't - and finding that the trait that you attached to womanhood or manhood fits the opposite sex as well.

I just don't buy that men are from mars and women are from venus. I don't think we are hardwired differently from one another. SOCIALISED differently, yes. But hardwired? I just don't see it.

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by betenoire

I think men and women are the same. I mean there are no emotional/character traits that a person can say "women are" or "men are" without someone knowing several instances where a woman wasn't, or a man isn't - and finding that the trait that you attached to womanhood or manhood fits the opposite sex as well.

I just don't buy that men are from mars and women are from venus. I don't think we are hardwired differently from one another. SOCIALISED differently, yes. But hardwired? I just don't see it.

I don't buy the whole venus/mars thing either. I guess I can agree with you that it boils down to socialization.

sorry for quoting myself. I am still trying to tease this apart in my head. If men and women are not different? Then how come when somebody is born into the wrong body it is about so much MORE than fixing the biological differences? That is where I am stuck.

[Heart]

Originally Posted by betenoire

I think men and women are the same. I mean there are no emotional/character traits that a person can say "women are" or "men are" without someone knowing several instances where a woman wasn't, or a man isn't - and finding that the trait that you attached to womanhood or manhood fits the opposite sex as well.

I just don't buy that men are from mars and women are from venus. I don't think we are hardwired differently from one another. SOCIALISED differently, yes. But hardwired? I just don't see it.

In a key way, I agree with this. Even if men and woman are different in some fundamental ways, the issue is not the difference, as much as it is the way those difference are valued. Society (socialization, culture, etc) decides what is male/man/masculine and then values that above what they decide is female/woman/feminine. That's the issue. And that's one of the reasons that masculine women risk erasure.

I actually think that masculine and feminine are distinct energies (modes of expression, performances, what-have-you) that can be embodied by male or female people.

But "man" and "woman" get rigidly constructed and defined along binary gender lines as man=masculine, woman=feminine. Ergo -- we get descriptions of butch women as "men with boobs."

Heart

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by Heart

In a key way, I agree with this. Even if men and woman are different in some fundamental ways, the issue is not the difference, as much as it is the way those difference are valued. Society (socialization, culture, etc) decides what is male/man/masculine and then values that above what they decide is female/woman/feminine. That's the issue.

Heart

I think that there are some very fundamental ways in which masculine people differ from feminine people...and will also acknowlege that doesn't always split along biological gender lines.

I'm wondering though about the valuation of maleness as "better than" femaleness in our society now and in the near future. We're at a point in our society where women with higher education and advanced degreees now equal in number (and are soon to pass) men with the same education, and in which men are falling behind in the employment market faster than women. I read an article in the NY Times a few days ago that stated 1 in 5 males age 25-54 is now not working, and many have stopped looking. Even in a full economic recovery, some economists are predicting that figure will stay at 1 in 6.

What do we think will happen over the long term in an economy in which, on the whole, women are more educated and more employed than men?

[Heart]

Just to clarify Jo - when discussing oppression I tend to come from a more global perspective. (See the link in my sig line). Globally, women are by no means surpassing men in terms of education or economic gain. Plus in many communities (other than white, middle class), the fact that a woman works does not necessarily indicate greater freedom or autonomy.

Also -- greater education and economic gain does not necessarily impact deeply rooted social/cultural/religious traditions and definitions. Witness the rise of right-wing women. We can't assume that these gains will automatically reduce oppression or devaluation of women, in fact some studies show an increase in violence against women as they make economic gains.

Of course such gains are ultimately crucial (again see link in sig line) and worth fighting for, but i don't think we are any kind of a tipping point yet.

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by Heart

Just to clarify Jo - when discussing oppression I tend to come from a more global perspective. (See the link in my sig line). Globally, women are by no means surpassing men in terms of education or economic gain. Plus in many communities (other than white, middle class), the fact that a woman works does not necessarily indicate greater freedom or autonomy.

Also -- greater education and economic gain does not necessarily impact deeply rooted social/cultural/religious traditions and definitions. Witness the rise of right-wing women. We can't assume that these gains will automatically reduce oppression or devaluation of women, in fact some studies show an increase in violence against women as they make economic gains.

Of course such gains are ultimately crucial (again see link in sig line) and worth fighting for, but i don't think we are any kind of a tipping point yet.

Absolutely agree on much of what you've said...education and financial gain doesn't guarantee anything, but it does make a stronger position to work from. And globally....ugh....I did my MS at a university with a strong international community economic development program, and I was fortunate to be able to work with students from all over the world....from inner city organizaitons in the U.S. to students from Ghana and Sierra Leone. Coming from a global perspective we have very, very far to go.

One of my fellow students was from India, and worked with an organization providing capital to women to start small businesses. Even among lower caste women (and that's their reality, not a slam against them), having access to capital and the ability to create an income for themselves frequently (although not always) made a difference in their role and standing within their communities and families.

I come from a place that says we may not be able to change everything overnight, but education, employment, and access to capital is a darn good place to start.

Anyway...feel like I'm derailing now...apologies!

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Heart

Just to clarify Jo - when discussing oppression I tend to come from a more global perspective. (See the link in my sig line). Globally, women are by no means surpassing men in terms of education or economic gain. Plus in many communities (other than white, middle class), the fact that a woman works does not necessarily indicate greater freedom or autonomy.

Also -- greater education and economic gain does not necessarily impact deeply rooted social/cultural/religious traditions and definitions. Witness the rise of right-wing women. We can't assume that these gains will automatically reduce oppression or devaluation of women, in fact some studies show an increase in violence against women as they make economic gains.

Of course such gains are ultimately crucial (again see link in sig line) and worth fighting for, but i don't think we are any kind of a tipping point yet.

Thinking that it is a critical time to have a global perspective concerning women's oppression, rights, financial status, etc.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by betenoire

I think men and women are the same. I mean there are no emotional/character traits that a person can say "women are" or "men are" without someone knowing several instances where a woman wasn't, or a man isn't - and finding that the trait that you attached to womanhood or manhood fits the opposite sex as well.

I just don't buy that men are from mars and women are from venus. I don't think we are hardwired differently from one another. SOCIALISED differently, yes. But hardwired? I just don't see it.

At this point, I would have to disagree with you.

A year or so ago, I probably would have agreed with you (to a point, because there just are biological differences). However, after having lived with both sets of hormones coursing thru my bloodstream I now wholeheartedly disagree with you. There are differences, and it's not all just socialized stuff (which obviously exists too).

*******
Medusa and getting he'd online:

I have a theory I've been working on/watching for years and years. Straight women and queer women tend to speak/act differently when in a public setting. I'm sure gay men and straight men do this too, but I've never bothered to notice, cuz I don't care so much.

Queer women tend to speak more assuredly and with more conviction. I rarely hear queer women using the 'straight girl lilt' when they're talking about something. That's one difference. I'm on my phone, so I don't have time to go into all the other differences I've noticed over the years, but I have more examples.

I think because of homophobia and sexism, if a person isn't acting in traditional 'catering to men' (read straight girl lilt, asking questions instead of just speaking plainly), people (online) are going to assume that means man (because naturally anyone who's not catering to a man, must be a het man, because queers aren't even thought of until someone points it out)


Gotta Get Back To Work,
Dylan

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by Dylan

At this point, I would have to disagree with you.

A year or so ago, I probably would have agreed with you (to a point, because there just are biological differences). However, after having lived with both sets of hormones coursing thru my bloodstream I now wholeheartedly disagree with you. There are differences, and it's not all just socialized stuff (which obviously exists too).

It's totally none of my business, but I would be interested to hear what differences you're talking about.

However, I still don't think that speaks to men and women being inherently different. I think it speaks to you being a different person on "t" (I presume that's what we're talking about here? we're not besties, so I don't know a whole lot about your life) than you were beforehand. But I'd be willing to bet that some of the things that have changed about you are not necessarily qualities that are inherent in all men. Likewise, I would be willing to bet that there are loads of women who possess these new qualities that you have.

It might be apples and oranges (but I don't think it is - hormones and chemicals hanging out around brain receptors aren't that far off from each other in terms of how they effect our emotional/mental/social make-up) but I'm a different person off of Welbutrin than I am on it. (I am a much better, more stable person OFF it - just for the record. Holy crap that shit did a number on me.)

HEY COOL I found a Canadian Smiley!

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by betenoire

It's totally none of my business, but I would be interested to hear what differences you're talking about.

However, I still don't think that speaks to men and women being inherently different. I think it speaks to you being a different person on "t" (I presume that's what we're talking about here? we're not besties, so I don't know a whole lot about your life) than you were beforehand. But I'd be willing to bet that some of the things that have changed about you are not necessarily qualities that are inherent in all men. Likewise, I would be willing to bet that there are loads of women who possess these new qualities that you have.

It might be apples and oranges (but I don't think it is - hormones and chemicals hanging out around brain receptors aren't that far off from each other in terms of how they effect our emotional/mental/social make-up) but I'm a different person off of Welbutrin than I am on it. (I am a much better, more stable person OFF it - just for the record. Holy crap that shit did a number on me.)

HEY COOL I found a Canadian Smiley!

And I would still disagree with you.

I used my own experience as one example of countless. I no longer share much of my personal business on these boards, but I wasn't talking 'oh, I feel different...like a whole new person' kind of thing.

I don't quite get your welbutrin analogy, because I'm reading as though it proves what I'm saying. There is plenty of science that backs up what I'm saying when it comes to how testoterone and estrogen affect one's brain/emotions/whatnot.


We Can Agree To Disagree If You Want Tho, Cuz I'm Definitely Not About To Share My Personal Business On These Sites Anymore,
Dylan

[SuperFemme]

if there was indeed no difference, then why would anyone feel they were in the wrong body? because i don't think that is only related to biology, is it?

[Jaques]

BOOBS FEED BABY HUMAN BEINGS..................they are wonderful on all who enjoy them - just not on me!

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

if there was indeed no difference, then why would anyone feel they were in the wrong body? because i don't think that is only related to biology, is it?

This is an interesting question to me. Both from a biological and social perspective (the old nature-nurture duality). There is no way I can give an answer because I have never felt I was in the wrong body even though I often felt just plain wrong growing up. Just not the right kind of girl, but a girl nonetheless. If I didn't have the parents I did, I don't know if I would have worked through this with a positive self-image. In my family there was room for different kinds of females and my two sisters and me actually covered quite a spectrum.

Although, I believe I have an other or perhaps a conglomorate gender, yet not inter-gendered in many ways, but am female at the core (don't know if this makes sense, or not). What is masculine in me is just female masculinity as I experience it. This isn't so for others.

I hope some TG/IG folks will comment. Or, is this moving outside of the thread intent? Dunno, there are so many issues being brought up.