Men with boobs.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

Here's what I don't get.... we have a pronoun spot now. People wanted it. People got it. But, most butches do not use it. Why?

I think there could be lots of reasons:

1) They are unsure which pronoun matches them the best.

2) They feel that "she" should be the default and so it is insulting to even have the pronoun space there (Toughy's always makes me smile!)

3) People worry that others will judge them/make assumptions about them, based on their pronoun choice.

4) Other reasons

The reality is that some butches prefer he, some she, some hy, some shi, and some zie. I don't think that we have any other choice than to work within that reality.

I say, write it in the space, or take what you get. It is not fair to get upset if someone calls you by the wrong pronoun when we all have a very easy and visible way to let everyone know what they prefer. I feel that it is almost unfair to expect others to have to work within a guessing game. If it is important to you, write it in.

Be proud of your pronoun!

Disclaimer: I went against my usual rule of never posting prior to reading a whole thread first, so I hope this still fits in with the current "groove" of the thread! I haven't read past the above quoted post. This has been in my head for a long time, and seeing Arwen's post triggered these thoughts.

I totally appreciate what you are saying here. However, it isn't working. I was jazzed to see the pronoun spot because I thought it would really help out with this whole matter.

I inserted she, her right off when joining. There have been more than a few times that I have been addressed as he or him just as it was on the dash site. And every single time this has happened it has been by a femme. I don't get it! We have the place to clearly state what we want, yet, this keeps happening. And I keep seeing statements about most butches identifying as female. What is this based upon? Are there some site stats around that I don't know about? I have no idea what the breakdown is. I honestly don't believe this to be true, but could certainly be wrong. And there are butches that (as you state) don't list pronouns or don't care which are used. My guess is that in those cases, pronouns default to male. Again, I have no data to support this and probably should not make this assumption- could just be a personal sensitivity.

Something I have thought about is that perhaps we butches might just have more of a sensitivity about this. Again, I have no idea. I do know that it is important to me to use the pronoun(s) that another butch prefers.

Now, to be fair, I would think that the same thing has happened for male-identified butches. I have no idea. I want to believe this is so.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

I And I keep seeing statements about most butches identifying as female. What is this based upon? Are there some site stats around that I don't know about? I have no idea what the breakdown is. I honestly don't believe this to be true, but could certainly be wrong.

You have been in the Bay Area too long.

Even here, i run into butches who ID as butch and know what femme means, but otherwise are pretty oblivious to all the other gender politics we are so savvy to. For a while i was dating a lot. And i ran into a number of butches who were completely befuddled when i mentioned all this.

Back home, it's rare for a butch to male-identify. That's something associated with transitioning. i know people from back home who do, but most are people i met through the dash site. i really rarely ran into a butch who male-identified. Most people are pretty oblivious to all this.

i don't have any statistics tho. i think your sense of being in the minority may have more to do with the online community and the Bay Area butch-femme crowd. That's just my sense.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Martina

You have been in the Bay Area too long.

Even here, i run into butches who ID as butch and know what femme means, but otherwise are pretty oblivious to all the other gender politics we are so savvy to. For a while i was dating a lot. And i ran into a number of butches who were completely befuddled when i mentioned all this.

Back home, it's rare for a butch to male-identify. That's something associated with transitioning. i know people from back home who do, but most are people i met through the dash site. i really rarely ran into a butch who male-identified. Most people are pretty oblivious to all this.

i don't have any statistics tho. i think your sense of being in the minority may have more to do with the online community and the Bay Area butch-femme crowd. That's just my sense.

Well, I'll be! This just didn't occur to me. I have never been out as butch outside of the Bay Area and only for a few years really (late bloomer). OK, time to take some road trips!

[BullDog]

Even in the Bay Area, I am in an online group of butch women that has hundreds of members. Many of them are from the Bay Area. Most of them are not associated with either the Dash or this site that I am aware of.

Even at the Dash site- with the male defaults and all the anti-lesbian sentiment, there were 2 long term polls with hundreds of votes cast over many years. One was one butch identity- over 60% who voted said they were female. One poll was on lesbians (not just butch)- over 60% said they identified as lesbians. In fact most of the times that I looked at the polls over the years it was roughly 2/3 in each poll. And this in what was at times a very hostile environment for both groups (in some cases overlapping).

I don't believe male identified butches are in the majority in real life or online, but there is often the perception that they are. I don't say this to make male identified butches feel bad or anything. I'm a stone butch. I don't believe very many butches are. So in that instance I am in the clear minority. It's just that the perception and reality are very different when it comes to female/male or she/he and to me it's very jarring.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by Martina

This sounds fine, but that's not the way it works. Often the DEFAULT is male pronouns. Some people's default is "she," but on the previous site anyway, that was much less common. So that's the situation. It's not sometimes -- randomly someone gets called by the wrong pronoun.

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

I totally appreciate what you are saying here. However, it isn't working. I was jazzed to see the pronoun spot because I thought it would really help out with this whole matter.

I inserted she, her right off when joining. There have been more than a few times that I have been addressed as he or him just as it was on the dash site. And every single time this has happened it has been by a femme. I don't get it! We have the place to clearly state what we want, yet, this keeps happening. And I keep seeing statements about most butches identifying as female. What is this based upon? Are there some site stats around that I don't know about? I have no idea what the breakdown is. I honestly don't believe this to be true, but could certainly be wrong. And there are butches that (as you state) don't list pronouns or don't care which are used. My guess is that in those cases, pronouns default to male. Again, I have no data to support this and probably should not make this assumption- could just be a personal sensitivity.

Something I have thought about is that perhaps we butches might just have more of a sensitivity about this. Again, I have no idea. I do know that it is important to me to use the pronoun(s) that another butch prefers.

Now, to be fair, I would think that the same thing has happened for male-identified butches. I have no idea. I want to believe this is so.

I appreciate you both responding to my post. I guess I must live under a rock to be surprised by this happening to AtLast? I truly am surprised that with this system in place, and knowing the sensitivities of many male and female idetified butches to pronouns, that people wouldn't take a simple minute to glance at the avatar. People make mistakes and newbies may not think things through, or people post quickly without thinking based on their internal default (that is created by the "world" that they grew up in, I think), but since we have a place for pronouns here?Come on..take a minute to look! I mean, again, I can see mistakes, but.....

Anyway, I really think that if more butches used the spot maybe people would begin to naturally look before posting.

Does anyone else see this as a potential solution to our pronoun default problem...or that it could at least decrease the problem? We can talk about being upset about the default, but here is something people can start doing to try to change the default to there no longer being a default

Last thing is that yes, it does make sense to me, AtLast, that butches might be more conscious of using the preferred pronouns of other butches because for many of us, pronouns are important. Butches have felt the sting of being called "she" or "he". So, it makes sense.

[Jaques]

Being TG i like to be addressed as "he", but if someone makes a mistake, it really doesnt bother me...........i know what i am, so its not really important to me at all

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

I appreciate you both responding to my post. I guess I must live under a rock to be surprised by this happening to AtLast? I truly am surprised that with this system in place, and knowing the sensitivities of many male and female idetified butches to pronouns, that people wouldn't take a simple minute to glance at the avatar. People make mistakes and newbies may not think things through, or people post quickly without thinking based on their internal default (that is created by the "world" that they grew up in, I think), but since we have a place for pronouns here?Come on..take a minute to look! I mean, again, I can see mistakes, but.....

Anyway, I really think that if more butches used the spot maybe people would begin to naturally look before posting.

Does anyone else see this as a potential solution to our pronoun default problem...or that it could at least decrease the problem? We can talk about being upset about the default, but here is something people can start doing to try to change the default to there no longer being a default

Last thing is that yes, it does make sense to me, AtLast, that butches might be more conscious of using the preferred pronouns of other butches because for many of us, pronouns are important. Butches have felt the sting of being called "she" or "he". So, it makes sense.

Dapper in the case of AtLast, at least a few of the people who have called AtLast him on this site were people who have been around for quite some time, and at least one said they were friends and had chatted back and forth. So it's quite mystifying to me that anyone who has been around for any length of time would make that mistake. Not only does AtLast have Her/She in her profile but she talks about being a butch woman in her posts quite often.

I am not trying to call anyone out. It's the fact that it still happens on a fairly regular basis that's glaring, despite all of the efforts made by both the website and the people who do have pronoun preferences.

The pronoun choice in the profile is great, but it's not really a matter of people needing to memorize a whole bunch of pronouns. Like I said earlier butch woman is not just about pronoun choice. She is not a name tag.

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by June

I am going to give an example, but not use the persons name, it's someone I really value and I hope she will forgive me for sharing this story, if she even remembers it!

Several years ago, she and I met in person and I asked which pronouns she preferred, she said she/her. Then one day, after that, I referred to her as "She" in a thread and she messaged me and said (not an exact quote) "Way to call me she". I was kind of stunned by that, but changed the way I referred to...him.

Now, what is that about? What makes it okay to use female pronouns in person and male online? What is it *we* do that makes it not okay to be a "she". How does it negate or lessen someones Butch Cred? It doesn't for me, but I'm not Butch. (But I am "Butch Enough")

Wow. No wonder there's confusion. If some of those who are female identified are giving mixed signals to the rest of us who are trying to get it right, doesn't that just perpetuate what this is about?

How can students learn if the teacher isn't teaching the truth?

It undermines everything.

I was honestly not aware of folks doing this and can't imagine the internal struggle that must be going on inside those that do, or have done, this.

Originally Posted by BullDog

The pronoun choice in the profile is great, but it's not really a matter of people needing to memorize a whole bunch of pronouns. Like I said earlier butch woman is not just about pronoun choice. She is not a name tag.

There's no need to memorize anything. Membership is growing by leaps and bounds, so that is nearing an impossibility.

I love the pronoun bar for this very reason. If I address someone wrong and see that I did so from their pronoun choice, I can edit or retract that wrong identification.

You are right in that she is not a name tag. But name tags serve a purpose in helping others see you as you want to be seen. That's why we all wear them at reunions and bashes. They are a tool.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Gemme

There's no need to memorize anything. Membership is growing by leaps and bounds, so that is nearing an impossibility.

I love the pronoun bar for this very reason. If I address someone wrong and see that I did so from their pronoun choice, I can edit or retract that wrong identification.

You are right in that she is not a name tag. But name tags serve a purpose in helping others see you as you want to be seen. That's why we all wear them at reunions and bashes. They are a tool.

Gemme, I wasn't saying the pronoun choice wasn't useful. It is. I think the real problem is some people have a limited notion of what butch is and what woman is and that's what the real problem is. It's not really a matter of keeping track of who's who.

Thanks for your post Dylan. There does seem to be a stubborn refusal by a segment of femmes that I find baffling. It certainly is not all femmes. There are plenty of femmes who partner with or date trans men and male id butches who are very supportive and use the right pronouns or ask when they don't know.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by Gemme

Wow. No wonder there's confusion. If some of those who are female identified are giving mixed signals to the rest of us who are trying to get it right, doesn't that just perpetuate what this is about?

How can students learn if the teacher isn't teaching the truth?

It undermines everything..........

I find this interesting... and relevant to the problems themselves. Just that after consistent participation in this thread that, all the things people have put out that they've seen occur as to the defaults, hierarchy, sexism, misogyny and what the problems seem to stem from, a story gets told about one female ID'd butch who ID'd as he online and that's what you choose to single out and really wow about and criticize.

And it should be obvious but, maybe you should think about Junes story in a "which came first, the chicken or the egg" sense.

And that perhaps remember it's not even a common occurrence, and that it's also been spoken about other IDs, ID'ing inconsistently between work, home, online... even spoken about in this thread... perhaps you missed that.

Just some thoughts...

Metro

[Jett]

That fact that anyones defaulting instead of asking is simply lazy (like Dylan said) and with that laziness shows a great deal of indifference to those who get the short end of the default stick...

Because to default, you have to make a choice of he or she... and in that consciously choose who to disrespect.

When people who've been in the community for some time say that they do still use default pronouns... truly it says nothing to me about the he's or she's, or their value... but it speaks to me about the person who defaults, and their internal values.

[Dylan]

I'd like to weigh in on this whole he/she pronoun thing, because I see it a lot, and it's incredibly frustrating to me also

I was at a party a while back. There was about a 50/50 mix of male ID'd butches and female ID'd butches. One female ID'd butch in particular kept referring to the male ID'd butches as she. My personal opinion is that it kept happening because this particular FIB hadn't been around that many MIBs. We kept mentioning to this FIB about the pronoun thing. Eventually, it got resolved. But here's the thing. Most of the femmes at this party referred to ALL butches as he. So, how are we supposed to have a conversation about 'respecting' male pronouns, when half of the party isn't bothering to respect female pronouns?

After the party, I was talking to one of the attendants, and she (a femme) was going on and on about how upset she was that the FIB wasn't using the proper pronoun for the male ID'd butches. And here's how she went about voicing that upset: "Why does he keep referring to X as she? I don't get it. WHY does he keep referring to all y'all as 'she'? I mean, come on. Why does he keep doing that..especially after we've said something?"

When I brought up numerous times that 'he' was a 'she', this person would just shrug it off with, "Oh yeah, he/she...whatever"

Now, I don't get that. You don't get to pick and choose people's pronouns. And One can hardly defend ThisGroup's pronoun while completely dismissing and 'whatevering' ThatGroup's pronoun. And excuses like, "That's just how I roll" or "I call all butches, he" just don't work. It's disrespectful to all butches. And honestly, I (personally) don't get the hang up here. I mean, if I 'he' a (female-ID'd) femme, she's probably going to get a little pissy and wonder why in the world I'm calling her he...like don't I have eyes? Can't I clearly see she's a she?

Maybe it's just me, but if someone tells me they're male ID'd, I see them as male, and it's not too hard to 'remember' a pronoun...not any harder than remember my step-father's pronoun. If someone tells me they're female ID'd, I see them as female, and it's not too hard to remember a damned pronoun. I will admit, I get messed up on the zie pronouns, and I'm working on that.

Separate story: I used to have a friend who would use whichever pronoun was convenient for ThatPerson's conversation. If ThatPerson was talking to say, people from work where she didn't want to be outed, she would use a male pronoun for whomever she was dating/friends/whatnot. If ThatPerson was talking in a queer circle, and ThatPerson wanted folks to know she was queer, she would switch up to a 'she' pronoun as a means to out her. There was no respect whatsoever for the actual person ThatPerson was talking about...it was all about her own comfort level, and all about what the pronoun choice did for her (whether protecting her from being outed, or outing her if in queer space). Personally, I think this is more disturbing to me, because A) it's obviously disrespectful to the butch being talked about, but B) it's also USING the disrespect for personal gain. I also find it homophobic.

I don't really know why I feel the need to share those stories, but they seem relevant to the conversation right now, and it really bugs the shit out of me. Pronouns are NOT for OTHER people to decide based on their own comfort level. You can't vehemently defend OnePerson's pronoun and demand respect for it, while completely 'whatevering' AnotherPerson's pronoun...especially when you're demanding AnotherPerson respect OnePerson.

But to then take someone's pronoun and pick and choose, so you don't get 'outed' or so you do get 'outed' is just (to me) the hilt of disrespect and laziness.

And I will bet money, if I he'd a great majority of the femmes in the world, there'd be a world of hurt coming my way. And if I were then corrected, and said something like, "Oh yeah, whatever, I refer to all femmes as he", I'd get double the hurt.

So, seriously, WTF? Because, I just don't get it. I don't get how it's any harder to remember SoAndSo's pronoun as it is to remember your mother's or father's pronoun. If you really, truly see me as male, then it's not difficult. And if you really, truly see SoAndSo as female, then it shouldn't be an issue.

Now if you're just switching them up because it's convenient for your own conversations...you're just self-centered.


Dylan

[JustJo]

Responding to Dylan, but not copying the whole thing....

I appreciate that you shared these stories, because this stuff does happen. As I posted earlier, I do check that pronoun spot on the profile bar because I do want to use the correct pronoun. I wouldn't want to be called he...tyvm...and I don't want to do that to anyone else either.

When I first joined the dash site I made friends with a butch who had hy as their designated pronoun on the profile. Okay, great. I called hym hy. When I met hys girlfriend, who also refers to hym as hy online, she called hym she. Now I'm confused. I asked the butch....what do you prefer?
Hy said "oh either way is fine." Ugh. Okay, now I'm really messed up. If I call hym she online, others will eat my head for disrespecting. If I'm talking about hym to her, do I say she? Please know that I'm truly NOT trying to be flippant here (and it's okay, cuz they're friends and we had this conversation already), but it is crazy-making for those of us who do care, do respect that, and do want to call you what you prefer to be called.

And yes, some people do ignore stated preferences...and I find that very disrespectful.

And...Dylan...as a side note, you had me totally stumped with the MIB's and FIB's for a minute....cuz I was seeing MIB and thinking "Men In Black?" Sorry.....my son's favorite movie....duh....

[Martina]

Originally Posted by Dylan

But here's the thing. Most of the femmes at this party referred to ALL butches as he. So, how are we supposed to have a conversation about 'respecting' male pronouns, when half of the party isn't bothering to respect female pronouns?

This gets to the core. The issue is misogyny. It's disrespectful to call a MIB "she," but no big deal to default the other way because that involves an elevation of status whereas calling a he a she is potentially demeaning or humiliating.

Re someone like Atlast who has her pronoun posted and comments in threads about her preferences, the people, often femmes, who persist in using male pronouns are not just lazy. Their behavior is coercive -- and on some level intentional. It makes them feel more comfortable in some way to use male pronouns for butches. They want the butches to present the way they want the butches to present. It's not just hugely disrespectful to the butch. It's an attempt to create a community that conforms to and recreates a conventional gender hierarchy (queered thought it is). The behavior is inexcusable, not just because it is extremely rude, but because it consciously chooses to valorize male ID in principal, in the abstract, as an ideal. i still recall that mistype of one poster who said "female-id vs butch-id." That's what defaulting to male pronouns ANNOUNCES -- that butch means male.

[apretty]

a zillion times yes!

Originally Posted by Martina

Re someone like Atlast who has her pronoun posted and comments in threads about her preferences, the people, often femmes, who persist in using male pronouns are not just lazy. Their behavior is coercive -- and on some level intentional. It makes them feel more comfortable in some way to use male pronouns for butches. They want the butches to present the way they want the butches to present. It's not just hugely disrespectful to the butch. It's an attempt to create a community that conforms to and recreates a conventional gender hierarchy (queered thought it is). The behavior is inexcusable, not just because it is extremely rude, but because it consciously chooses to valorize male ID in principal, in the abstract, as an ideal. i still recall that mistype of one poster who said "female-id vs butch-id." That's what defaulting to male pronouns ANNOUNCES -- that butch means male.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Martina

This gets to the core. The issue is misogyny. It's disrespectful to call a MIB "she," but no big deal to default the other way because that involves an elevation of status whereas calling a he a she is potentially demeaning or humiliating.

Re someone like Atlast who has her pronoun posted and comments in threads about her preferences, the people, often femmes, who persist in using male pronouns are not just lazy. Their behavior is coercive -- and on some level intentional. It makes them feel more comfortable in some way to use male pronouns for butches. They want the butches to present the way they want the butches to present. It's not just hugely disrespectful to the butch. It's an attempt to create a community that conforms to and recreates a conventional gender hierarchy (queered thought it is). The behavior is inexcusable, not just because it is extremely rude, but because it consciously chooses to valorize male ID in principal, in the abstract, as an ideal. i still recall that mistype of one poster who said "female-id vs butch-id." That's what defaulting to male pronouns ANNOUNCES -- that butch means male.

I'd like to piggy back off this and add, that HEAVEN forbid a butch (or transguy) like penetration, I have *personally* have watched femmes *shudder* and wrinkle their nose and say things such as

"eeww"

"what a waste of a butch"

"that ain't right"

because *only* femmes are penetrated because lord forbid a butch or transguy enjoy that kind of orgasm, it automatically puts them in *a bottom role* or a *less than butch* role.... *I* have even had femmes tell me I need to leave someone alone and let them just be what they should be true butches or *Daddy's* .

oy vey...

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I'd like to piggy back off this and add, that HEAVEN forbid a butch (or transguy) like penetration, I have *personally* have watched femmes *shudder* and wrinkle their nose and say things such as

"eeww"

"what a waste of a butch"

"that ain't right"

because *only* femmes are penetrated because lord forbid a butch or transguy enjoy that kind of orgasm, it automatically puts them in *a bottom role* or a *less than butch* role.... *I* have even had femmes tell me I need to leave someone alone and let them just be what they should be true butches or *Daddy's* .

oy vey...

And not just penetration. Lately it seems like anything less than stone equals 'less than'


Just Had To Add,
Dylan

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Dylan

I'd like to weigh in on this whole he/she pronoun thing, because I see it a lot, and it's incredibly frustrating to me also

I was at a party a while back. There was about a 50/50 mix of male ID'd butches and female ID'd butches. One female ID'd butch in particular kept referring to the male ID'd butches as she. My personal opinion is that it kept happening because this particular FIB hadn't been around that many MIBs. We kept mentioning to this FIB about the pronoun thing. Eventually, it got resolved. But here's the thing. Most of the femmes at this party referred to ALL butches as he. So, how are we supposed to have a conversation about 'respecting' male pronouns, when half of the party isn't bothering to respect female pronouns?

After the party, I was talking to one of the attendants, and she (a femme) was going on and on about how upset she was that the FIB wasn't using the proper pronoun for the male ID'd butches. And here's how she went about voicing that upset: "Why does he keep referring to X as she? I don't get it. WHY does he keep referring to all y'all as 'she'? I mean, come on. Why does he keep doing that..especially after we've said something?"

When I brought up numerous times that 'he' was a 'she', this person would just shrug it off with, "Oh yeah, he/she...whatever"

Now, I don't get that. You don't get to pick and choose people's pronouns. And One can hardly defend ThisGroup's pronoun while completely dismissing and 'whatevering' ThatGroup's pronoun. And excuses like, "That's just how I roll" or "I call all butches, he" just don't work. It's disrespectful to all butches. And honestly, I (personally) don't get the hang up here. I mean, if I 'he' a (female-ID'd) femme, she's probably going to get a little pissy and wonder why in the world I'm calling her he...like don't I have eyes? Can't I clearly see she's a she?

Maybe it's just me, but if someone tells me they're male ID'd, I see them as male, and it's not too hard to 'remember' a pronoun...not any harder than remember my step-father's pronoun. If someone tells me they're female ID'd, I see them as female, and it's not too hard to remember a damned pronoun. I will admit, I get messed up on the zie pronouns, and I'm working on that.

Originally Posted by Martina

This gets to the core. The issue is misogyny. It's disrespectful to call a MIB "she," but no big deal to default the other way because that involves an elevation of status whereas calling a he a she is potentially demeaning or humiliating.

Re someone like Atlast who has her pronoun posted and comments in threads about her preferences, the people, often femmes, who persist in using male pronouns are not just lazy. Their behavior is coercive -- and on some level intentional. It makes them feel more comfortable in some way to use male pronouns for butches. They want the butches to present the way they want the butches to present. It's not just hugely disrespectful to the butch. It's an attempt to create a community that conforms to and recreates a conventional gender hierarchy (queered thought it is). The behavior is inexcusable, not just because it is extremely rude, but because it consciously chooses to valorize male ID in principal, in the abstract, as an ideal. i still recall that mistype of one poster who said "female-id vs butch-id." That's what defaulting to male pronouns ANNOUNCES -- that butch means male.

Both of you bring so many points out here that are important and I personally thank you both. yeppers butch can mean male, female, TG, IG, et. all!

The other thing that just makes me feel good is Dylan pointing out (even though you were whatevered.. major eye-roll) to this femme that she was doing the same thing! I have been in situations like this in which both has happened and someone needed to hear that it is important to use appropriate prounouns for all of us.

You might be right in that the FIB just isn't used to this. Hopefully, she will think about it more and develop awareness. And why the femme just didn't get that it is equally respectful to use female pronouns is beyond me!

Argh.... I almost (have to say this, as I know I dodged a big bullet!) dated a femme that not only insisted on calling me he, him, etc. (yes, even after I corrected her many times), but wanted to give me a more male sounding first name!!! She even called me with a list of butch names I might want to use!!! I was quite attracted to her (at first), but must say after this, my libido fizzled rapidly... as in flat-lined!!!

And I am working on zie pronouns too.... I will get there, I promise!!!

[DapperButch]

[QUOTE=BullDog;105933]Dapper in the case of AtLast, at least a few of the people who have called AtLast him on this site were people who have been around for quite some time, and at least one said they were friends and had chatted back and forth. So it's quite mystifying to me that anyone who has been around for any length of time would make that mistake. Not only does AtLast have Her/She in her profile but she talks about being a butch woman in her posts quite often.

I am not trying to call anyone out. It's the fact that it still happens on a fairly regular basis that's glaring, despite all of the efforts made by both the website and the people who do have pronoun preferences.

The pronoun choice in the profile is great, but it's not really a matter of people needing to memorize a whole bunch of pronouns. Like I said earlier butch woman is not just about pronoun choice. She is not a name tag.[/

----------------------------------------------------------

[COLOR="Red"]I am aware of this. I don't believe I was in any way implying that <confused look>.


Additionally, maybe you misunderstood but I was actually empathizing with AtLast and actually feeling anger for her when I was writing that post. I don't think that it is acceptable to call anyone by the wrong pronoun consciously.

[BullDog]

[quote=DapperButch;106099]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Dapper in the case of AtLast, at least a few of the people who have called AtLast him on this site were people who have been around for quite some time, and at least one said they were friends and had chatted back and forth. So it's quite mystifying to me that anyone who has been around for any length of time would make that mistake. Not only does AtLast have Her/She in her profile but she talks about being a butch woman in her posts quite often.

I am not trying to call anyone out. It's the fact that it still happens on a fairly regular basis that's glaring, despite all of the efforts made by both the website and the people who do have pronoun preferences.

The pronoun choice in the profile is great, but it's not really a matter of people needing to memorize a whole bunch of pronouns. Like I said earlier butch woman is not just about pronoun choice. She is not a name tag.[/

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[COLOR="Red"]I am aware of this. I don't believe I was in any way implying that <confused look>.


Additionally, maybe you misunderstood but I was actually empathizing with AtLast and actually feeling anger for her when I was writing that post. I don't think that it is acceptable to call anyone by the wrong pronoun consciously.

Yes, Dapper I was aware you were empathizing. Sorry if that wasn't clear. What I was saying is that it wasn't just a matter of people not glancing at the pronoun choice before posting. Even some people who are familiar with AtLast- as opposed to responding to someone in a post and not being sure of their pronoun choice or gender- have used the wrong one with her.

I wasn't disagreeing with you. It was more of a jumping off place. Sorry if that wasn't clear.