Men with boobs.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by Dylan

But here's the thing. Most of the femmes at this party referred to ALL butches as he. So, how are we supposed to have a conversation about 'respecting' male pronouns, when half of the party isn't bothering to respect female pronouns?

This gets to the core. The issue is misogyny. It's disrespectful to call a MIB "she," but no big deal to default the other way because that involves an elevation of status whereas calling a he a she is potentially demeaning or humiliating.

Re someone like Atlast who has her pronoun posted and comments in threads about her preferences, the people, often femmes, who persist in using male pronouns are not just lazy. Their behavior is coercive -- and on some level intentional. It makes them feel more comfortable in some way to use male pronouns for butches. They want the butches to present the way they want the butches to present. It's not just hugely disrespectful to the butch. It's an attempt to create a community that conforms to and recreates a conventional gender hierarchy (queered thought it is). The behavior is inexcusable, not just because it is extremely rude, but because it consciously chooses to valorize male ID in principal, in the abstract, as an ideal. i still recall that mistype of one poster who said "female-id vs butch-id." That's what defaulting to male pronouns ANNOUNCES -- that butch means male.

[apretty]

a zillion times yes!

Originally Posted by Martina

Re someone like Atlast who has her pronoun posted and comments in threads about her preferences, the people, often femmes, who persist in using male pronouns are not just lazy. Their behavior is coercive -- and on some level intentional. It makes them feel more comfortable in some way to use male pronouns for butches. They want the butches to present the way they want the butches to present. It's not just hugely disrespectful to the butch. It's an attempt to create a community that conforms to and recreates a conventional gender hierarchy (queered thought it is). The behavior is inexcusable, not just because it is extremely rude, but because it consciously chooses to valorize male ID in principal, in the abstract, as an ideal. i still recall that mistype of one poster who said "female-id vs butch-id." That's what defaulting to male pronouns ANNOUNCES -- that butch means male.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Martina

This gets to the core. The issue is misogyny. It's disrespectful to call a MIB "she," but no big deal to default the other way because that involves an elevation of status whereas calling a he a she is potentially demeaning or humiliating.

Re someone like Atlast who has her pronoun posted and comments in threads about her preferences, the people, often femmes, who persist in using male pronouns are not just lazy. Their behavior is coercive -- and on some level intentional. It makes them feel more comfortable in some way to use male pronouns for butches. They want the butches to present the way they want the butches to present. It's not just hugely disrespectful to the butch. It's an attempt to create a community that conforms to and recreates a conventional gender hierarchy (queered thought it is). The behavior is inexcusable, not just because it is extremely rude, but because it consciously chooses to valorize male ID in principal, in the abstract, as an ideal. i still recall that mistype of one poster who said "female-id vs butch-id." That's what defaulting to male pronouns ANNOUNCES -- that butch means male.

I'd like to piggy back off this and add, that HEAVEN forbid a butch (or transguy) like penetration, I have *personally* have watched femmes *shudder* and wrinkle their nose and say things such as

"eeww"

"what a waste of a butch"

"that ain't right"

because *only* femmes are penetrated because lord forbid a butch or transguy enjoy that kind of orgasm, it automatically puts them in *a bottom role* or a *less than butch* role.... *I* have even had femmes tell me I need to leave someone alone and let them just be what they should be true butches or *Daddy's* .

oy vey...

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I'd like to piggy back off this and add, that HEAVEN forbid a butch (or transguy) like penetration, I have *personally* have watched femmes *shudder* and wrinkle their nose and say things such as

"eeww"

"what a waste of a butch"

"that ain't right"

because *only* femmes are penetrated because lord forbid a butch or transguy enjoy that kind of orgasm, it automatically puts them in *a bottom role* or a *less than butch* role.... *I* have even had femmes tell me I need to leave someone alone and let them just be what they should be true butches or *Daddy's* .

oy vey...

And not just penetration. Lately it seems like anything less than stone equals 'less than'


Just Had To Add,
Dylan

[Soon]

Out of how many sites, how many threads, how many years (!)*butch* identity gets discussed/analysed, deconstructed (and put back together again!), it goes on and on.

There have been some awesome people who have started great *Femme* threads, but, constantly, the threads that get the most feedback are about BUTCHES (FIB and MIB) /TG/MEN of our community and their identities.

What is that about their (butch/female and male dependent) identities that make for the most heated (and most interesting!) conversations when femme threads do not get half the attention?

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by HowSoonIsNow

Out of how many sites, how many threads, how many years (!)*butch* identity gets discussed/analysed, deconstructed (and put back together again!), it goes on and on.

There have been some awesome people who have started great *Femme* threads, but, constantly, the threads that get the most feedback are about BUTCHES (FIB and MIB) /TG/MEN of our community and their identities.

What is that about their (butch/female and male dependent) identities that make for the most heated (and most interesting!) conversations when femme threads do not get half the attention?

So true and I have wondered the same thing. And I have to mention MtF's as well along with stone. I do know a couple of MtF's that used to post on the old site, but just began to feel too alienated. I think there are many different femme presentations and identifications that are shut out here and on other B-F sites. Although, I think as the site continues this will change as it feels very open to me. Then, again, POC members have brought concerns up that they felt have simply carried over.

Maybe because the Planet is fairly new and lots of folks from the old site do not particpate here, these areas just have not developed their voice yet. I hope new folks feel free to begin threads about these, too. Actually, I get really jazzed when I see posts by people I have never seen before. There are so many ideas out there that I have never had an opportunity to learn or hear about. And hell, I'm old!

Since I can't go to the ReUnion () due to economics, I plan on attending the Femme Conference here in the Bay Area that same weekend. Will be my first and I am looking forward to the topics femmes will discuss.

[Gayla]

As to the online vs offline pronoun switcheroo thingy... I use both, offline and off, depending on the situation. I'm not trying to pull a fast one on anyone but yes, there are some people in my life that refer to me as she and others that use he, both online and off.

Thinking back on it, there's a slight possibility that I could be the person June referred to in her earlier post (although I don't think I ever would have commented on her using "she" online because it's just not that big of a deal to me).

My reality is that I do not exist solely in a queer/bf environment. I have a job. I have family of origin. I have friends that are not queer. I interact, both online and off, with a wide variety of people. (And they seem to all be on my Facebook now!) There are a number of people that I met in queer situations, or online, that know me as "he". That's who I am to them. There are also people that know me as "she" and that's who I am to them. There's even some, such as my partner, who know me as both.

Again, this isn't meant to be duplicitous in any way, it's just who I am.

I understand that proper pronoun usage is very much a respect issue for some people, and I've seen it used in very disrespectful ways in the past. I totally get that, understand it, respect it. For me though, it's really not that big a deal. Maybe it is because I've spent so much of my life in a community where things like "sir" and "boy" aren't determined by biology and are considered titles of respect aside from gender. /shrug

[Gayla]

Originally Posted by June

No, puddin' it wasn't you, although you are dear to me as well, even though you're not coming down to game night

I very much remember meeting you for the first time and asking, and you said it didn't matter. And I can totally respect that. When it happened, it didn't make me think less of the person, it made me sad, and only because I felt like it was so they wouldn't be "less than".

And I don't mean to sound condescending, I really do feel sad when people are afraid to express themselves because of what other people might think.

this leads me to another point, which is a tad off topic, but someone mentioned it to me today in a rep, how Butch and Trans bottoms are also seen as "less than" Snowy touched on it, but I wish someone would start that conversation in a thread.

I really, really, really wish I could make it but right now the making money thing is really, really, really important, too. Not to mention, I just had some major dental work done so I'm a little scared of those cupcakes. <3

There's been a lot of really good stuff in this thread and I've probably started a good dozen comments but them deleted them because I got sidetracked and went off on tangents. I've learned a lot from the "men with boobs" part and now that we've evolved here, it's given me even more to think about.

I have never not been butch. With a couple of brief exceptions, my relationships have always been with women who ID'd as femme. I've been "out" for 30 plus years so it's not something I just discovered about myself when I found a website. During those years I've also been "boy" or "Sir" or "Daddy" so ID'ing in some way that is publicly seen as male is also not something I discovered from a website.

I've been "Sir" longer than I've been "hy" and it's a place where I'm really comfortable. I don't think I ever gave it much thought or put any real concrete theories behind it until I found the dash site, ummm, I think 8 or 9 years ago now. It was there, in chat, that I had "hy" thrust upon me. I'm not real fond of made up words so I wasn't sure what to think but then it just became the norm so I got used to it.

The theoretical evolution of my gender started there and, to be honest, the pronoun / MID / FID / etc. issues around butch gender are something I've only seen online. With the exception of people I've met through the dash site, I've never had a conversation with another butch about pronouns, ID or any of the other issues we so often discuss here. I also don't know any butches in r/t, again other than those I met through b-f, that use male pronouns offline.

But online, on that site, at that time, it was a must. Butch=hy, femme=she and that's how, at least in chat, we could tell each other apart. For so many people, finding butch-femme community online is the start of the exploration and education process. We've all seen it. The newbies who start off at "but we're all just girls" and learn to understand why that statement is so offensive to many of us.

We're linear people living in a linear world. We grow, chronologically, along a linear scale - 15 is "less than" 20 when talking about age - so it's easy for me to see how some people can view what they used to be as being "less than" what they are now. Especially when what they used to be was something they didn't like or weren't comfortable with. That process of evolution from "just me" to "butch" to "stone butch" to "TG butch", etc. is very linear for most people so "just me" becomes less than "TG butch" for them. I think the issues come in when people can't see that the process is an individual one and not everyone evolves at the same rate or even to the same place.

I've spent a lot of time in the last 8 year's trying to define my own identity. Really, truly, in my heart of heart's I probably fall more into the "just me" category because I do see my gender as a fluid, ever changing kind of thing. I fall more to the male ID'd side of things, and it's where I'm most comfortable on a public level, but there's so much more to me then just that.

This got way more rambly then I intended and I don't think I even really said what I thought I wanted to say when I started but.. well yeah. I don't agree with the "less than" theory of things but I can see where it may have come from in this situation.

[Cyclopea]

Originally Posted by HowSoonIsNow

Out of how many sites, how many threads, how many years (!)*butch* identity gets discussed/analysed, deconstructed (and put back together again!), it goes on and on.

There have been some awesome people who have started great *Femme* threads, but, constantly, the threads that get the most feedback are about BUTCHES (FIB and MIB) /TG/MEN of our community and their identities.

What is that about their (butch/female and male dependent) identities that make for the most heated (and most interesting!) conversations when femme threads do not get half the attention?

If you have any thoughts to flesh that out I would love to hear them.
What strikes me first is the idea of transgression: of what it means to be female in the case of butch women, and of what gender means in the case of transgender male butches. Transgression and deconstruction of any sort is a very popular meme in the post modern culture which largely concerns itself with dismantling. Perhaps "Femme" is more creationist than deconstuctionist? Just a thought.

Or is it pure misogyny?
Look forward to more on this.

[Nat]

Maybe it's transgression that makes this discussion so much more of a focal point than any discussion involving feminine experience, or maybe it's controversy or maybe it's a masculine topic and therefore deemed more worthy of discussion...

Every once in a while, I find myself reading (perhaps imagining?) a certain strain within this type of thread that feels like this to me:

The masculine folks demanding more respect from the feminine folks than they already get while at the same time being less than respectful toward feminine folks who get it "wrong." I see masculine folks complaining about femme "laziness" and "apathy" and such for not always getting things right. Most femmes I know have bent over backwards for the butches they know or have known in an attempt to understand and be respectful of them. I even see masculine (and feminine) folks blaming the behavior of feminine folks for the behavior of masculine folks who send mixed messages about their own IDs - which I think is actually the most infantilizing, demeaning assertion regarding masculine community members that I've seen in this thread.

I really want to be on board with whatever I need to be on board with to be an ally to every member of this community, and when I read about how femmes are being perceived as so lazy and apathetic, I feel exasperated, frustrated, helpless and disrespected as a femme. It's soooo sexist to call a butch by the wrong pronoun, to misinterpret their gender or to misrepresent them to the heterocentric world, but complaining about how femmes aren't being nurturing, attentive, understanding or respectful enough toward masculine folks - that doesn't hint at misogyny?

You know what I don't see a lot of? I don't see a lot of feminine people here in threads talking about how lazy or thoughtless the masculine folks here are for not understanding and respecting the feminine folks enough. Do you think it's because we (feminine folks) feel like we always get respect from the masculine folks?

I have been guilty of defaulting to different pronouns in the past. To me there are two different main types of default. There is the default pronoun used in hypothetical situations and then there is using a default pronoun with a specific person, regardless of how they ID. I have mostly been guilty of the first type of default, but I know there are times I have slipped with the second.

Guess what? It's freaking hard. It's hard to remember, it's hard to keep track. Some of the masculine folks I've known from this community have even changed pronouns and identities sometimes more than once over a matter of months or years. It's hard to keep track, it's hard to always get it right. To me, it does become a laundry list, and at some point, the amount of psychic energy it takes to remember every single masculine member of the community's preference becomes too much.

How much time and energy does a masculine member of the community feel they need to spend talking to an individual femme about their gender experience, identity, pronouns, etc, before they consider her apathetic and disrespectful for not knowing their stuff? Do they know her stuff? Are they invested in her, or do they just expect her to be invested in them no matter how much or how little they respect or even think about her?

It seems like many of the masculine folks here want all this "respect" and really sometimes I feel like the respect which is being demanded is actually being confused with male privilege. And if male privilege does exist on this site, then maybe working toward dismantling it together would be the better option than demanding to receive equal share in it.

PS. I am mutilating the English language by purposefully using "they" and "them" as gender-neutral singular pronouns in the above post. As odious as this is for my poor English major brain, I think I'm going to make it a habit. I just didn't feel like writing "her/hir/hym/him" a hundred times. Sorry, my dear English.

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by Dylan

And not just penetration. Lately it seems like anything less than stone equals 'less than'

Exactly! And Fuck That. (God, I love to say Fuck That about things I don't like.)

I remember -very- clearly a conversation on the boards at the other site, where some (annoying) Femme was all up in arms about how penetration "emasculates" a Butch - that was her explanation as to why she was a "stonefemme". Fuck That. I kept saying over and over again that her statement implied that she thinks that Butches who -do- like to have their "down there's" played with are less than authentic Butches. And do you know what? SHE AGREED THAT THAT WAS WHAT SHE THOUGHT and tried to defend that it was accurate.

I was so pissed. I'm still so pissed. God, had she said that she simply didn't like to do it because she thinks that the stuff between her lover's legs was icky..I would have been less pissed off than what I was. (Although, that would have pissed me off too.)

On that same coin / opposite side - what the fresh fuck is it with Femmes who partner with Stone Butches being called "High Femmes"? I'm not liking that particular insinuation of hierarchy. So because I like to do all sorts of things to my lover's "down there" (hee hee, I am refusing to say vagina!) I am less/low Femme. Again - Fuck That.

Originally Posted by HowSoonIsNow

What is that about their (butch/female and male dependent) identities that make for the most heated (and most interesting!) conversations when femme threads do not get half the attention?

No idea. But your observation is spot on.

Originally Posted by apretty

don't get me started on how stone doesn't even exist.

Pretty lady, one day you can tell me alllllll about it over coffee. Mwah!

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Nat

Maybe it's transgression that makes this discussion so much more of a focal point than any discussion involving feminine experience, or maybe it's controversy or maybe it's a masculine topic and therefore deemed more worthy of discussion...

Every once in a while, I find myself reading (perhaps imagining?) a certain strain within this type of thread that feels like this to me:

The masculine folks demanding more respect from the feminine folks than they already get while at the same time being less than respectful toward feminine folks who get it "wrong." I see masculine folks complaining about femme "laziness" and "apathy" and such for not always getting things right. Most femmes I know have bent over backwards for the butches they know or have known in an attempt to understand and be respectful of them. I even see masculine (and feminine) folks blaming the behavior of feminine folks for the behavior of masculine folks who send mixed messages about their own IDs - which I think is actually the most infantilizing, demeaning assertion regarding masculine community members that I've seen in this thread.

I am one of them masculine folks Nat who don't get respect from both ends of the spectrum, from my femme counterparts I hear things as, "ew that ain't femme", "Ew you fuck your guys?", "ew that boy is such a waste" I don't feel that anyone is bending over backwards for just butches in general, as I see it if a butch or guy went into a thread and said something about a femme, we as femme's would be all up on that shit... I know we would, so as a femme *I* see where femme's are flippant when it comes to how butches want to be seen or addressed.

I really want to be on board with whatever I need to be on board with to be an ally to every member of this community, and when I read about how femmes are being perceived as so lazy and apathetic, I feel exasperated, frustrated, helpless and disrespected as a femme. It's soooo sexist to call a butch by the wrong pronoun, to misinterpret their gender or to misrepresent them to the heterocentric world, but complaining about how femmes aren't being nurturing, attentive, understanding or respectful enough toward masculine folks - that doesn't hint at misogyny?

I don't think any butch up in here is asking for a nurse maid, I don't see how asking to respect someone's pronoun choice is sexist, it is NOT FAIR that we impose the *he* trump card on all of our masculine looking community members, it is unfair to question their masculinity if it does not fit our mind mold, and please don't tell me it does not happen, I can name a good 15 incidents... Any one remember a member purposely calling Toughy a Miss? I do, and I was disgusted at the venom it came with, from a femme... not a butch a femme..

You know what I don't see a lot of? I don't see a lot of feminine people here in threads talking about how lazy or thoughtless the masculine folks here are for not understanding and respecting the feminine folks enough. Do you think it's because we (feminine folks) feel like we always get respect from the masculine folks?

*I* personally can start a thread about how lazy and thoughtless both guys/butches and femme's are thoughtfulness when it comes to understanding my masculinity.

I have been guilty of defaulting to different pronouns in the past. To me there are two different main types of default. There is the default pronoun used in hypothetical situations and then there is using a default pronoun with a specific person, regardless of how they ID. I have mostly been guilty of the first type of default, but I know there are times I have slipped with the second.

Guess what? It's freaking hard. It's hard to remember, it's hard to keep track. Some of the masculine folks I've known from this community have even changed pronouns and identities sometimes more than once over a matter of months or years. It's hard to keep track, it's hard to always get it right. To me, it does become a laundry list, and at some point, the amount of psychic energy it takes to remember every single masculine member of the community's preference becomes too much.

This community is always evolving, *I* care enough to keep my eyes and ears open and pay attention to how someone is addressed or how they want to be, it's not hard, it's what one does when one is part of a community such as this.. If we didn't and all became how do I put this... Blah about it because it's hard, then what happens?

How much time and energy does a masculine member of the community feel they need to spend talking to an individual femme about their gender experience, identity, pronouns, etc, before they consider her apathetic and disrespectful for not knowing their stuff? Do they know her stuff? Are they invested in her, or do they just expect her to be invested in them no matter how much or how little they respect or even think about her?

As long as they need and want, I don't have to have a huggy relationship with say Bulldog to respect what she wants or needs from me as a member of this place, I don't need a kiss kiss on the cheek to listen to Rope's he wants and needs from me as his ally. I use them because they reciprocate this respect towards me... Now if someone was not, I am good with calling them on their bullshit...

It seems like many of the masculine folks here want all this "respect" and really sometimes I feel like the respect which is being demanded is actually being confused with male privilege. And if male privilege does exist on this site, then maybe working toward dismantling it together would be the better option than demanding to receive equal share in it.

As a masculine folk I would appreciate that is respected, it is part of me, funny though no one refers to me as a he automatically, what do you think?

PS. I am mutilating the English language by purposefully using "they" and "them" as gender-neutral singular pronouns in the above post. As odious as this is for my poor English major brain, I think I'm going to make it a habit. I just didn't feel like writing "her/hir/hym/him" a hundred times. Sorry, my dear English.

These are just my thoughts on your post... Thanks for listening

[Jett]

Originally Posted by Nat

Maybe it's transgression that makes this discussion so much more of a focal point than any discussion involving feminine experience, or maybe it's controversy or maybe it's a masculine topic and therefore deemed more worthy of discussion...

Every once in a while, I find myself reading (perhaps imagining?) a certain strain within this type of thread that feels like this to me:

The masculine folks demanding more respect from the feminine folks than they already get while at the same time being less than respectful toward feminine folks who get it "wrong." I see masculine folks complaining about femme "laziness" and "apathy" and such for not always getting things right. Most femmes I know have bent over backwards for the butches they know or have known in an attempt to understand and be respectful of them. I even see masculine (and feminine) folks blaming the behavior of feminine folks for the behavior of masculine folks who send mixed messages about their own IDs - which I think is actually the most infantilizing, demeaning assertion regarding masculine community members that I've seen in this thread.

I really want to be on board with whatever I need to be on board with to be an ally to every member of this community, and when I read about how femmes are being perceived as so lazy and apathetic, I feel exasperated, frustrated, helpless and disrespected as a femme. It's soooo sexist to call a butch by the wrong pronoun, to misinterpret their gender or to misrepresent them to the heterocentric world, but complaining about how femmes aren't being nurturing, attentive, understanding or respectful enough toward masculine folks - that doesn't hint at misogyny?

You know what I don't see a lot of? I don't see a lot of feminine people here in threads talking about how lazy or thoughtless the masculine folks here are for not understanding and respecting the feminine folks enough. Do you think it's because we (feminine folks) feel like we always get respect from the masculine folks?

I have been guilty of defaulting to different pronouns in the past. To me there are two different main types of default. There is the default pronoun used in hypothetical situations and then there is using a default pronoun with a specific person, regardless of how they ID. I have mostly been guilty of the first type of default, but I know there are times I have slipped with the second.

Guess what? It's freaking hard. It's hard to remember, it's hard to keep track. Some of the masculine folks I've known from this community have even changed pronouns and identities sometimes more than once over a matter of months or years. It's hard to keep track, it's hard to always get it right. To me, it does become a laundry list, and at some point, the amount of psychic energy it takes to remember every single masculine member of the community's preference becomes too much.

How much time and energy does a masculine member of the community feel they need to spend talking to an individual femme about their gender experience, identity, pronouns, etc, before they consider her apathetic and disrespectful for not knowing their stuff? Do they know her stuff? Are they invested in her, or do they just expect her to be invested in them no matter how much or how little they respect or even think about her?

It seems like many of the masculine folks here want all this "respect" and really sometimes I feel like the respect which is being demanded is actually being confused with male privilege. And if male privilege does exist on this site, then maybe working toward dismantling it together would be the better option than demanding to receive equal share in it.

PS. I am mutilating the English language by purposefully using "they" and "them" as gender-neutral singular pronouns in the above post. As odious as this is for my poor English major brain, I think I'm going to make it a habit. I just didn't feel like writing "her/hir/hym/him" a hundred times. Sorry, my dear English.

I had a longer post, point-counter point but I deleted it.

Personally speaking... your post is frustrating. "Masculine folks" aren't suggesting or demanding that feminine folks give more respect them than they already do, (or deserve that's how I read it) and hardly in need of nurturing (ironically that feels to me somewhat demeaning and infantilizing of masculine identities). I'm quite a few decades beyond needing a mommy in my life.

I have met very few butches or trans people etc. who behave in the manner you've described toward femmes, yes, BUT for the hugely vastly majority I see us having a great deal of admiration and respect toward femmes. So... although I admittedly do feel somewhat personally dissed by your words as far as the generalization of what masculine identities think/need/want... that part about how you feel we perceive femmes role to us bothers me the most.

I'm sorry you feel this way, but we're not all assholes, well I can be an asshole but I'd sure as hell hope not in that context. I've always tried to give the same respect that I ask for, no matter the "ID".

Asking to be called by the proper pronoun doesn't seem like it should be a big deal to me, I'm always amazed by the resistance to it... not that that is what you're doing, but sometimes the responses are baffling.

This post probably isn't all the pertinent to the conversation, but oh well.

Metro

[blush]

Originally Posted by HowSoonIsNow

Out of how many sites, how many threads, how many years (!)*butch* identity gets discussed/analysed, deconstructed (and put back together again!), it goes on and on.

There have been some awesome people who have started great *Femme* threads, but, constantly, the threads that get the most feedback are about BUTCHES (FIB and MIB) /TG/MEN of our community and their identities.

What is that about their (butch/female and male dependent) identities that make for the most heated (and most interesting!) conversations when femme threads do not get half the attention?

Originally Posted by Nat

Maybe it's transgression that makes this discussion so much more of a focal point than any discussion involving feminine experience, or maybe it's controversy or maybe it's a masculine topic and therefore deemed more worthy of discussion...

Every once in a while, I find myself reading (perhaps imagining?) a certain strain within this type of thread that feels like this to me:

The masculine folks demanding more respect from the feminine folks than they already get while at the same time being less than respectful toward feminine folks who get it "wrong." I see masculine folks complaining about femme "laziness" and "apathy" and such for not always getting things right. Most femmes I know have bent over backwards for the butches they know or have known in an attempt to understand and be respectful of them. I even see masculine (and feminine) folks blaming the behavior of feminine folks for the behavior of masculine folks who send mixed messages about their own IDs - which I think is actually the most infantilizing, demeaning assertion regarding masculine community members that I've seen in this thread.

I really want to be on board with whatever I need to be on board with to be an ally to every member of this community, and when I read about how femmes are being perceived as so lazy and apathetic, I feel exasperated, frustrated, helpless and disrespected as a femme. It's soooo sexist to call a butch by the wrong pronoun, to misinterpret their gender or to misrepresent them to the heterocentric world, but complaining about how femmes aren't being nurturing, attentive, understanding or respectful enough toward masculine folks - that doesn't hint at misogyny?

You know what I don't see a lot of? I don't see a lot of feminine people here in threads talking about how lazy or thoughtless the masculine folks here are for not understanding and respecting the feminine folks enough. Do you think it's because we (feminine folks) feel like we always get respect from the masculine folks?

I have been guilty of defaulting to different pronouns in the past. To me there are two different main types of default. There is the default pronoun used in hypothetical situations and then there is using a default pronoun with a specific person, regardless of how they ID. I have mostly been guilty of the first type of default, but I know there are times I have slipped with the second.

Guess what? It's freaking hard. It's hard to remember, it's hard to keep track. Some of the masculine folks I've known from this community have even changed pronouns and identities sometimes more than once over a matter of months or years. It's hard to keep track, it's hard to always get it right. To me, it does become a laundry list, and at some point, the amount of psychic energy it takes to remember every single masculine member of the community's preference becomes too much.

How much time and energy does a masculine member of the community feel they need to spend talking to an individual femme about their gender experience, identity, pronouns, etc, before they consider her apathetic and disrespectful for not knowing their stuff? Do they know her stuff? Are they invested in her, or do they just expect her to be invested in them no matter how much or how little they respect or even think about her?

It seems like many of the masculine folks here want all this "respect" and really sometimes I feel like the respect which is being demanded is actually being confused with male privilege. And if male privilege does exist on this site, then maybe working toward dismantling it together would be the better option than demanding to receive equal share in it.

PS. I am mutilating the English language by purposefully using "they" and "them" as gender-neutral singular pronouns in the above post. As odious as this is for my poor English major brain, I think I'm going to make it a habit. I just didn't feel like writing "her/hir/hym/him" a hundred times. Sorry, my dear English.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but it seems to me that both of these posts speak to that frustration femmes feel about pronouns. The one that acknowledges that sometimes it's fucking hard for ALL of us to keep pronouns straight. Yet femmes are most likely to be called out if we get the pronoun wrong. Why is that? To admit that it's hard sometimes is just that: admitting that it's hard. So what. It doesn't mean it's not worth it, or we don't fully understand the why and how of it.

However, it has gotten to the point that if a femme acknowledges that it's difficult sometimes to keep pronouns straight, we are slapped as not caring enough about a butch's or transperson's identity. We aren't trying hard enough. We don't understand. We want to emasculate you.

Are femmes held more accountable for pronoun mis-naming whether intentional or not? It sure feels that way.

[BullDog]

A few more thoughts.

I personally am not looking for femmes to be nurturing and attentive towards me. I am not looking for a mother. I already have one.

I haven't seen anyone being upset about honest mistakes in pronoun usage.

I've heard several people mention how exhausting it is to have to try and remember or get things right. At the same time I hear so much talk about gender diversity and fighting against the binary. Gender in butch femme communities isn't simple. If you are in favor of gender diversity you are going to have to deal with more variables. Not all butches are the same in their gender expression. Not all femmes are the same in their gender expression. Not all trans men and trans women are the same in their gender expressions. No one is going to simplify their gender because people find it exhausting.

I agree with HowSoonIsNow, there needs to be more femme gender discussion. I have always been greatly interested in these discussions and have always participated in them where I felt appropriate.

I said in this thread that I feel Femme is a transgressive gender as much as Butch is. I have always believed that to be the case.

[SuperFemme]

I often wonder if some of us Femme's are SO blind to misogyny and sexism that it doesn't occur to really give thought as to *why* there is an automatic default to He/Hy?

What does that say about how deeply socialized sexism is? Because a lot of Femme's come out later in life after having relationships with and marriages to bio-men. Where naturally that default is He.

Then behold the b/f community! I will get blasted for saying this a site/community built on women/women relationships. Which is sad. So let's just go with this is a community built on Queer relations? For me it has been MORE of an adjustment to remember the male pronouns and being made to feel badly for using She/Shy. I think that is odd given the circumstances.

Is it some kind of internal homophobia that Femme's default to He/Hy? I have been sitting here for days with this question rolling around in my head. Because I am confused not as to the general He/Hy default but more as to the WHY's of it.

Anyone?

[apretty]

Originally Posted by Dylan

And not just penetration. Lately it seems like anything less than stone equals 'less than'


Just Had To Add,
Dylan

don't get me started on how stone doesn't even exist.

[Nat]

I spent most of the day reading, re-reading and gathering quotes from the earlier parts of the thread in order to best respond to people who responded to my post regarding femme expectations, etc. Unfortunately, the thread is getting away from me while I've been at it.

Now it's past my bedtime. If, by the time I finish writing a response, it is in any way appropriate to where the thread has gone by that time, I will post it. I do want to thank the people who replied to me and I do hope I have not irreparably offended anyone. I have of late avoided controversy because it stresses me out and so I have been kinda put out with myself for writing what I wrote even though it spoke to my own feelings at the time. It's just emotionally hard to handle - especially if I feel like my words have wounded or even further frustrated anybody at all whatsoever.

Before I go to sleep, I wanted to say something about the info I've gathered - which is still only from pages 1 - 14 of this thread. I am not a natural at categorization or organization, but as I gathered quotes, I tried to fit them into some sort of category. Most overlapped or could have been categorized in more than one way. I just wanted to provide a list of the categories I came up with based on the quotes. I'd include the quotes too, but I'd basically be reposting the entire first 14 pages of the thread.

I think the sheer amount of issues we are simultaneously grappling with is really pretty amazing within this one topic.

The categories I saw were:

- The Treatment of Masculine Women in the World and in this Community
- Gender Hierarchy (within the butch identity and within the world)
- Issues of Shared Space within the Butch Identity
- The Personal/Individual vs ? (Political? Community standards? Ideology?)
- Butch Pronouns
- Influence of the Dash site
- Femme Troubles and Trouble with Femmes (Troubles voiced by femmes and troubles voiced regarding femmes)

Are there others I'm missing?

[Softhearted]

Derailing here:

But I'm a bit perpexled when I see the word "sie" perceived as neutral...

Must be 3 trimesters of german (years ago) that makes me go UH?

In german:

sie (without a capital s) is used either as: 3rd person singular for genus femininum (she) or for 3rd person plural for all genus (maskulinum/femininum/neutrum).

When capitalized, Sie is consider the formal form of you (the equivalent of "Vous" in french).

Done with my derail...

[Heart]

I believe "per" comes from Marge Piercy's amazing book, "Woman on the Edge of Time." It stands for "person."