"Butch" and "Femme" - Truly Antiquated Terms or More Marginalization?

SassyLeo · 11-23-2009, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PapaC

Finally... are refugees from trouble countries forbidden to talk of their experiences in the new country?
.

Totally NOT to derail the great conversation happening here.... but I had to make sure this was noted.

This was a great analogy for me (and maybe others resonate)

Brilliant, PapaC.

Thank you!

Arwen · 11-23-2009, 12:13 PM

I think what it all boils down to for me is this:

I will call you(generic) what you(generic) want to be called. I would request the same courtesy in return.

Language discussions that revolve around age are, you will pardon the pun, as old as the hills.

"Kids these days" will all too soon be "the older crowd" and the "older crowd" will be ...well, not present.

So I guess I don't much care what anyone thinks of the term butch or the term femme other than as far as respecting my choice to use it. And I promise not to call you(generic) femme if you will give me another choice to use.

Bootboi · 11-23-2009, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arwen

I think what it all boils down to for me is this:

I will call you(generic) what you(generic) want to be called. I would request the same courtesy in return.

So I guess I don't much care what anyone thinks of the term butch or the term femme other than as far as respecting my choice to use it. And I promise not to call you(generic) femme if you will give me another choice to use.

I'm with Arwen on this. I really think it's common sense but then as they say common sense isnt so common.

NJFemmie · 11-23-2009, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bootboi

I'm with Arwen on this. I really think it's common sense but then as they say common sense isnt so common.

... just as being politically correct isn't correct anymore.
I think I finally understand what it means to get old. The generation gap concept has been epiphanized.

Blue_Daddy-O · 11-23-2009, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Medusa

And actually, the more I thought about it I shouldnt even have said "parsed" because that implies that I changed the meaning somehow. I think I should have said "used the word as I interpreted it".

And just for the record: From Dictionary.com

antiquated - 4 dictionary results
an⋅ti⋅quat⋅ed /ˈæntɪˌkweɪtɪd/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [an-ti-kwey-tid] Show IPA
Use antiquated in a Sentence
See web results for antiquated
See images of antiquated
–adjective 1. continued from, resembling, or adhering to the past; old-fashioned: antiquated attitudes.
2. no longer used; obsolete or obsolescent: The spinning wheel is an antiquated machine.
3. aged; old:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is why I couldnt really wrap my head around the idea of intentionally misrepresenting something as "antiquated" when it essentially means the same thing as "old" in the context in which I presented it. Language, a tricky tricky thing.

Medusa...I LOVE LOVE LOVE that you used the word antiquated. I believe the word is very fitting and less jarring to my eyes and soul as "Old Terms". I also believe this discussion is very important and EVERY related site should be having it right now! I don't understand the concept of others coming in trying to start drama over you bringing up this discussion! No site or person has a patent on the subject! That's just common sense! I see you have good business and social sense!

What I have heard from the 21 crowd here in DFW is the "younger crowd" is more gender fluid and doesn't want to be boxed into a label. Maybe this isn't some new phenomena. It seems to be history repeating itself as others have said. If I remember back to when I was that age, it seems others that age around me felt the same way. Too busy doing other things rather than being too serious about dissecting ones self/soul/reflecting on the deeper meaning of it all. I've always heard and believe it's true for most that the 20s are about figuring out who you are. And in our 30s we finally accept ourselves. I'm sure that might explain why BF sites don't have a larger younger audience. Many in the younger generation haven't figured out yet if they are more butch, more femme, both or none of the above, and haven't figured out yet what specific type of person they are more attracted to. Not to mention, no telling how many times their minds, feelings, wants, needs and desires change. They are just being, experiencing and trying to see what fits and feels best. I have heard for the first time in all of my Gay Life a 21 year old refer to herself as a Femmestick!!! LoL!

What has been very interesting to me is being off the BF sites for a few years and coming back and seeing even the over 30 and up generation now coming out of the Butch/Femme boxes/labels and/or expanding them.

I have to say I love a feminine Femme...I hope she never vanishes and there are always some of her around!

Apocalipstic · 11-23-2009, 04:28 PM

Thanks for saying that BVD-O, it seems like most of the new terms are not for the more feminine of us. I wonder if its just Femmes who are antiquated.

Darth Denkay · 11-23-2009, 07:29 PM

The_Lady_Snow - you totally freaking rock - you are femme in all your glory!!!

Apoc - Femme is definitely not antiquated in my book.

Yes, there does seem to be some defensiveness in this discussion, based around perceived fear that we will be erased as a culture. It's understandable. Yes, my hackles raise when I think about butch/femme becoming obsolete. In my case though, it has more to do with losing our history than with my identity in particular. You see, I'm gonna be butch until the day I die (and if there's more after that I'll be butch then too). Regardless of how terms may shift, I will always be a butch - no one can take that away from me. What raises my hackles is a fear that we will lose/forget our history. Butch/femme is what started the lesbian community (lesbians existed long before, but butch/femme created the first organized community). This was in the 1940s. These individuals suffered, were humiliated, and died because they were not ashamed of who they were, and made our lot, as their descendants if you will, so much easier. It's the connection to our past that I am afraid of losing.

11-23-2009, 12:13 PM	#2
Arwen Joy Seeker How Do You Identify?: Smartly-Flavored Preferred Pronoun?: Goddess Relationship Status: Mrs. Syzygy 1/9/14 Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Joyville, NM (aka Land of Enchantment) Posts: 10,140 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 13,636 Thanked 28,108 Times in 6,412 Posts Rep Power: 21474862	I think what it all boils down to for me is this: I will call you(generic) what you(generic) want to be called. I would request the same courtesy in return. Language discussions that revolve around age are, you will pardon the pun, as old as the hills. "Kids these days" will all too soon be "the older crowd" and the "older crowd" will be ...well, not present. So I guess I don't much care what anyone thinks of the term butch or the term femme other than as far as respecting my choice to use it. And I promise not to call you(generic) femme if you will give me another choice to use. __________________ I wrote a book, y'all! *FREE* Tarotscopes Seek Joy, y'all. Eschew hate. 9Words: A Poetry Challenge \| Do you like me?

11-23-2009, 07:29 PM	#7
Darth Denkay Member How Do You Identify?: Butch Preferred Pronoun?: I'm good with whatever Relationship Status: in love and loved Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Tennessee (Memphis, from Chattanooga) Posts: 315 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 456 Thanked 463 Times in 150 Posts Rep Power: 891935	The_Lady_Snow - you totally freaking rock - you are femme in all your glory!!! Apoc - Femme is definitely not antiquated in my book. Yes, there does seem to be some defensiveness in this discussion, based around perceived fear that we will be erased as a culture. It's understandable. Yes, my hackles raise when I think about butch/femme becoming obsolete. In my case though, it has more to do with losing our history than with my identity in particular. You see, I'm gonna be butch until the day I die (and if there's more after that I'll be butch then too). Regardless of how terms may shift, I will always be a butch - no one can take that away from me. What raises my hackles is a fear that we will lose/forget our history. Butch/femme is what started the lesbian community (lesbians existed long before, but butch/femme created the first organized community). This was in the 1940s. These individuals suffered, were humiliated, and died because they were not ashamed of who they were, and made our lot, as their descendants if you will, so much easier. It's the connection to our past that I am afraid of losing. __________________ Darth

11-23-2009, 04:28 PM	#6
Apocalipstic Pink Confection How Do You Identify?: Femme Preferred Pronoun?: She, Her, Ma'am Relationship Status: Dating Myself Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Nashville Posts: 4,266 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 17,195 Thanked 11,362 Times in 2,838 Posts Rep Power: 21474856	Thanks for saying that BVD-O, it seems like most of the new terms are not for the more feminine of us. I wonder if its just Femmes who are antiquated.