The Femme Continuum: The "Highs" and "Lows" of Visibility

[Enchantress]

Originally Posted by June

I don't care for the way "we" are censored due to language or perceived lack of decorum by other members of our community. As though we were not ladylike enough, or genteel enough.

I want to have strong opinions, strong language and strong emotions without someone shaking their goddamn finger at me and trying to shame me into hushing. I want people to stop acting like they're my "Daddy" just because I am a Femme. I want us to be able to fuck whomever we want, whenever we want and not be called Whores or Sluts and have our morals called into question*.

I want us to stop apologizing because we pass as straight much of the time. It is what it is, and we have nothing to explain or apologize for.



*June isn't allowed to date

Hallelujah!!

[Jett]

I do see a hierarchy in the femme "realm" just as I do with butch.

It's appears to me to not only have to do with outdated policed perceptions of femininity in mannerisms and appearance, but also how you identify- a to z, lesbian to transsensual... high to low... and strangely enough sometimes to where you're partner falls in the "butch hierarchy".

Oh let's not forget... how a femme behaves in the bedroom, because god forbid she top a butch... or straps (eta: or has so-called "lesbian sex").

Good thread... I'll be interested in hearing more.

Metro

[Medusa]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

Oh let's not forget... how a femme behaves in the bedroom, because god forbid she top a butch... or straps (eta: or has so-called "lesbian sex").

Good thread... I'll be interested in hearing more.

Metro

And don't even get me started on the idea that Femmes are somehow "damaged" straight women.
Or straight women who are too fat or ugly to "get a real man".


I feel a tangent comin' on.

[sweet_goldie_grrl]

Originally Posted by Medusa

And don't even get me started on the idea that Femmes are somehow "damaged" straight women.
Or straight women who are too fat or ugly to "get a real man".


I feel a tangent comin' on.

WOAH!! I never heard that one before! That's appalling that someone would actually think that.

[ScandalAndy]

Originally Posted by sweet_goldie_grrl

WOAH!! I never heard that one before! That's appalling that someone would actually think that.

I've been on the receiving end of that particular bit of poison more than once. I have to admit I haven't heard it as much now that I"m in my thirties, but it was common between 18 and 23 for me. I grew up in a very small town and was the only openly gay person up until about 4 years ago. Most people didn't understand and figured that the only way I would prefer women (especially butch women) over the local football hero was if there was something wrong with me. You'd be surprised what people can come up with to explain what is wrong with you.

[tantalizingfemme]

Originally Posted by ScandalAndy

You'd be surprised what people can come up with to explain what is wrong with you.

Not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but I was told I was ""man hurt".

[TickledPink]

Not sure if this is the proper place for this, but.....The term "high femme" or "very high femme" irk me.

Not sure why.

[kannon]

Originally Posted by ScandalAndy

I've been on the receiving end of that particular bit of poison more than once. I have to admit I haven't heard it as much now that I"m in my thirties, but it was common between 18 and 23 for me. I grew up in a very small town and was the only openly gay person up until about 4 years ago. Most people didn't understand and figured that the only way I would prefer women (especially butch women) over the local football hero was if there was something wrong with me. You'd be surprised what people can come up with to explain what is wrong with you.

I went to therapy for gender dysphoria. The therapist's first suggestion for me was, "why don't I try to dress more feminine?" Then this woman who stated she was originally from the North and that made her more liberal and open-minded said ALL lesbians were sexually molested and that's why they are lesbians. I asked so that's your theory? She said no, it's a fact. The sad part is she a helping professional.

[CherylNYC]

Originally Posted by kannon

I went to therapy for gender dysphoria. The therapist's first suggestion for me was, "why don't I try to dress more feminine?" Then this woman who stated she was originally from the North and that made her more liberal and open-minded said ALL lesbians were sexually molested and that's why they are lesbians. I asked so that's your theory? She said no, it's a fact. The sad part is she a helping professional.

Whoa! Just, whoa. Have you thought of reporting this person to the Medical Board?

whoa.

Every time I read something like this it just gets my blood boiling. I'm glad you managed to sort it out without her, uhhh, help.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by kannon

I went to therapy for gender dysphoria. The therapist's first suggestion for me was, "why don't I try to dress more feminine?" Then this woman who stated she was originally from the North and that made her more liberal and open-minded said ALL lesbians were sexually molested and that's why they are lesbians. I asked so that's your theory? She said no, it's a fact. The sad part is she a helping professional.

Reading this just makes me seethe! This so called "professional" probably has the same kinds of degrees and state approved licenses that I and many others that are in the field have.

I hate this! And I have to say that it isn't the first time I have read about or personally come across therapists like this. If this person really does hold a valid state license- REPORT (this is mal-practice/incompetence)!!! Sometimes therapists (depending on the state requirements and laws) can practice in a state without a professional license. Consequently, there is really no legal remedy for the harm that someone with this lack of knowledge and down right incompetence can do.

It is so important to check on the credentials of a therapist before seeing them. Also, go to your state's licensing board's website and see if non-licensed therapists are allowed to practice in your state in any form. In most states, even those with "in-active" status of their license cannot practice.

This is a very real problem and look at what can happen to people in our community when these idiots are out there practicing! You can also (in most states in the US), look up any prior infractions or mal-practice claims against a clinician. Plus, there is some good information on how to select a therapist written- and how to conduct pre-selection interview with a prospective therapist.

A fully licensed clinician has to have their state licensing registration number on all ads and business cards- you can look this number up on a state licensing board's website.

[Nat]

What an exciting thread topic - I'm really looking forward to reading everybody's responses.

When I first entered the femmebutch community, I felt lots of pressure to be more feminine. At first, it was also rather fun to get all dolled up. Also it felt freeing to play with beauty, style, femininity and know that my intended audience was queer - I felt a lot of release from the male gaze when I first entered the community.

But I'm afraid I also transferred that internalized male gaze onto butches and felt somewhat oppressed because of it.

As far as pressures go, I have over time become more frustrated with not being interpreted as queer at all - which in a way counterbalances the other pressures. *

I do resent what I see as pressure from within the community to be as straight-seeming or straight-looking as possible in order to have femme cred, but I haven't encountered that message overtly all that often.

These days I just am myself. I am feminine (I think), but not super-feminine. I just try to be authentic and I avoid people who would not appreciate me for that.

[BullDog]

There seems to be awful lot of rules for what women can look like (and act like) and be seen and taken seriously as queer/lesbian.

It seems hyper feminine is seen as the top of the femme hierarchy (most valued) but at the same time seen as the most suspect (supposedly more straight appearing), in terms of being legitimately queer/lesbian.

Why is feminine associated with straight and masculine associated with lesbian/queer when it comes to women?

[Liam]

Perhaps I am the anomaly or I simply had the misfortune of trying to be a part of lesbian communities that were just nasty, but when I identified as Butch and lesbian, I was constantly told that I was, "not feminine enough," that I was, "too much like a man." I have never experienced a Butch/Femme community except as an online community and the few days I attended the BASH in Oakland, an experience that I enjoyed very much. I'm sorry to interject a post that is not about femmes, but I wanted to point out that femmes are not the only ones, who get this sort of grief. I'll shush now.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I went to an event once, as I walked in the elevator I stepped in front of 2 butch/femme couples, I did not know them, personally, I knew their names, but had never had any kind of r/t experience till that very day. I smiled and said hello and introduced myself to one couple, as I extended my had I noticed couple on the right, the femme was clasping her partners arm like she was in terror, she pulled him slightly away from me as he extended his hand to shake mine. I pulled back right away, and turned to the other couple, they too had the same look, though the femme partner did address me saying," yeah we know you", I turned my back to them and faced the doors, both women whispering to one another, how I was known for *flipping* good butches and having several sex partners at once, and then a comment about how I had no regards to even those who are partnered.

Another time, I went on a date, with a butch, she had heard I was poly, as she walked me to the car I went to hug her, she slammed me up against the car, and tried to kiss me, I pushed her off and asked wtf she was thinking. Her response, "don't be so coy, you're into that leather shit, what's a lil rough out in the parking lot?"

Then there was the time I went out with my then husband, we did a poker run, as I sat at the Dew Drop, a couple came up to me, they wanted to know if I was up for a quick switcharoo in the back of the bar, see they assumed because I was in a poly relationship with my husband, that I was interested in quick rolls in the back of bars.

I am a masculine/feminine Leather Femme Daddy. I am leather first, since that is what is mostly engrained to me, that comes with me being very sexually open, I have no issues using words such as cunt, vagina, pussy, penis, dick, cock, ass, etc etc. I am very sexually fluid, I don't care about gender I will fuck, boys, guys, FTM's, bois, girls, butches, be they masculine, female, transgendered identified or what have you. What that DOES mean is I don't fuck ALL of them at one time, or that I think they are all mine, OR that I am after your man. I am not shy about sexual talk, topics, conversations and anything else sexual. I am a firm believer that a good fuck is that a GOOD fuck and that everyone should participate in a good orgasm at least 4 times a week.. I know I will.

As a Femme, for me it has been a slow and wonderful evolution, I have found and embraced my femininity 100% and that was a slow and painful process because of the above, I did not fit into a mold that kept being shoved down my throat. In the beginning how I am now and have been was not *femme* enough. You see the idea of femme that kept being presented to me was that of soft spoken, submissive, fluffy and giggly. I found this to be confusing since the *few* femme's I did know personally were nothing like this, even if they were in a D/s enviroment, these femme's were power and did not fit this more how do I describe this, *stepford* kind of femme. It took years for me to watch, learn, get to know, and accept all kinds of femme's even though some not all would me. In my experience we as femme's are a lil more vicious when it comes to the hierarchy of femme when we decide to attack one another we tend to do it and go for the jugular, coming in forms of, innuendos, rumors, and attacks on our moral character if one is more sexual than the other.

I am a Daddy, and I ooze masculinity in my everyday life, I am very much an reflection of my Mentors, the men, dykes, butches in my life. I tend to think alot more like a guy, like more male perceived oriented things and probably have more male presenting, id'd born friends than anything else. I am Master, Sir, Daddy and Papa to the boys, and Cassandra. I strap, so I put this example here since *cocks* are more male prone then they are female prone according to the assumptions of both online, straight and b/f standards. I don't have any rules, I don't have any gender expectations and I don't assign man as default to my butch counterparts. I own 2 boys who are self made men, they are my property I am their Sir.

I don't know where I fit on the scale of Femme, I know I am one, I know that no matter who tries to tell me it's not. I am a Power Femme, my power comes from within, it's a natural part of my dominance. I don't subscribe that because I am this that anyone is lower in the femme status. Femme is femme it's not a scale of low and high, it's my gender, and I don't see gender as something you can put a scaled value, it should have *value* period, not fucking degrees of it.

This will be a great thread if we can all come from our Femme experience and without a *set* of guidelines on what femme is, because honestly what I have learned that within our Queerdom is we are so fluid all of us in gender that it evolves every day, and instead of doing the better than thou thing, we should celebrate that maybe one day gender isn't just about the F or the M we are assigned, and that it's perfectly fine to live out of the binary and for fucks sakes that EVERYONE should fuck till they are sweaty, cotton mouthed, and a lil bloodied if that so pleased you!!!

[~baby~doll~]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

... As a Femme, for me it has been a slow and wonderful evolution, I have found and embraced my femininity 100% and that was a slow and painful process …It took years for me to watch, learn, get to know, and accept all kinds of femme's…

I ooze masculinity in my everyday life…tend to think a lot more like a guy, like more male perceived oriented things and probably have more male presenting…I don't have any rules, I don't have any gender expectations and I don't assign man as default to my butch counterparts…

I don't know where I fit on the scale of Femme I know I am one… I am a Power Femme, my power comes from within, it's a natural part of my dominance… Femme is femme… it's not a scale of low and high, it's my gender, and I don't see gender as something you can put a scaled value, it should have *value* period, not fucking degrees of it…

This will be a great thread if we can all come from our Femme experience and without a *set* of guidelines on what femme is, because honestly what I have learned that within our Queerdom is we are so fluid all of us in gender that it evolves every day, and instead of doing the better than thou thing, we should celebrate that maybe one day gender isn't just about the F or the M we are assigned, and that it's perfectly fine to live out of the binary and for fucks sakes that EVERYONE should fuck till they are sweaty, cotton mouthed, and a lil bloodied if that so pleased you!!!

Lady_Snow sorry i cut and pasted your lovely post to what seemed relevant and necessary for my response. i bolded a few lines which fit my conundrum well.

i like you, don’t know where i fit on the scale of femme. i am not even certain i am one. i have been in a wrestling match with me in terms of my gender and sexuality for a decade. Every time i think i come to grips with myself, i find a new twist. i know three elements are consistent no matter how the rest of the package looks.
1. i am 100% a masochistic submissive, in every way shape and form. It is a raw requirement in my life. It is as necessary as breathing.
2. i am demisexual as it is very difficult to have a sexual relationship without all the trimmings. i need the full package right down to the love. Even under these specific rules it is very difficult for me to reach a climax.
3. i am gynesexual/romantic and a relationship with a straight male is absolutely out of the question. A transman, butch, boi, daddy what have you does not count as a straight male and so it still works for me. i can fit and be for them as easily as a femme.
Since i first discovered i was queer years before Stonewall i have always struggled with the appearance of femme for myself. i hated dresses. i hated the shoes. i hated the makeup. No way was this me. i am very much attracted to these qualities though. i have had relationships with both sides, butch and femme. Yet my main relationship has been with a Domme femme. We have walked much of our lives together in one way or another.
Our relationship is poly and has been since the 70’s. This is how we have managed to stay connected for so long. Back to the point, i have been torn by the myth of gender. i see gender as nothing more than a societal interpretation of a role model. You have a vagina so you should fit this reality. You have a penis so you should fit this role model. It is the way is and has been and should remain according to culture and society. Is gender more than our physical being? Is gender more a mental process? Well now that we can transition into either physical gender via surgery what really is gender? Are there only two? Some cultures have as many as ten. This boggles even my questioning mind. i have never felt particularly female. I have never felt male. i am in the body i am in and so be it. i have no wish to transition. It never even caught my attention. i am actually jealous of those who have the desire to transition and do. They have a gender home or identity. (i hate that word)
So here i sit on the cusp of a gender. Female boy and many thought processes fit the feminine role. But I do not fit that role. i do not fit that masculine role either. i found comfort in fitting in what is known as Third Gender or out of alignment with either.
When i look at the butch femme roles i see an image of the heterosexual normative. Is this who we are as queer women? Do i need to find my place in one of these gender roles within the queer women of the world? i do not fit these roles. i sit in a no woman’s land. i embrace the female in me and embrace the masculinity in me. i identify with some of what you say Lady_Snow. i would like to celebrate my gender but what exactly is my gender. Are some of doomed to wander aimlessly without a place to anchor. i can reason that i have a vagina and like woman i must be a lesbian. Does anyone else experience this sort of gender and sexual dimorphism?

[femmeInterrupted]

Originally Posted by fayedoll

[COLOR="Blue"]

i am gynesexual/romantic and a relationship with a straight male is absolutely out of the question. A transman, butch, boi, daddy what have you does not count as a straight male and so it still works for me. i can fit and be for them as easily as a femme.

You have a vagina so you should fit this reality. You have a penis so you should fit this role model. It is the way is and has been and should remain according to culture and society. Is gender more than our physical being? Is gender more a mental process? Well now that we can transition into either physical gender via surgery what really is gender? Are there only two? Some cultures have as many as ten. This boggles even my questioning mind. i have never felt particularly female. I have never felt male. i am in the body i am in and so be it. i have no wish to transition. It never even caught my attention. i am actually jealous of those who have the desire to transition and do. They have a gender home or identity. (i hate that word)
So here i sit on the cusp of a gender. Female boy and many thought processes fit the feminine role. But I do not fit that role. i do not fit that masculine role either. i found comfort in fitting in what is known as Third Gender or out of alignment with either.
When i look at the butch femme roles i see an image of the heterosexual normative. Is this who we are as queer women? Do i need to find my place in one of these gender roles within the queer women of the world? i do not fit these roles. i sit in a no woman’s land. i embrace the female in me and embrace the masculinity in me. i identify with some of what you say Lady_Snow. i would like to celebrate my gender but what exactly is my gender. Are some of doomed to wander aimlessly without a place to anchor. i can reason that i have a vagina and like woman i must be a lesbian. Does anyone else experience this sort of gender and sexual dimorphism? [/I][/SIZE]

I'd like to gently respond to a piece in your post that I take issue with...specifically with the issue of a male with a transsexual experience, (transman) not 'counting' as a straight male. Regardless of his orientation, queer, bi or heterosexual, dismissing a Transman as not counting is entirely problematic. More so because it is also this belief that keeps women of transsexual histories and experience ( Transwomen) in a state of being 'othered' and not being seen or perceived as 'a real woman' also. Using genitals to make this distinction is also problematic. I assume that is what you meant when you said "gynesexual'? So a Transman without bottom surgery is still seen a 'really a woman' because ..... ? You can see how potentially disrespectful and derogatory that can be to a male who has transitioned. On the flip side of that, a woman who for what ever reasons cannot or does not have reconstructive bottom surgery is no less a woman for it. This is the pussy police crap that Michigan Women's Fest and other gate keepers use to oppress and discriminate out of ignorance.

I think there is a vast difference between sex and gender. There is biological sex. There is brain sex. Gender in and of itself is a social construct. It's an important distinction because identifying as gender queer, or gender fluid, or anywhere on that spectrum, is NOT the same thing as having a transsexual experience or history. In transitioning, people are aligning their bodies with their brains. Making right ( or right as possible) an often painful discrepancy between who they 'are' and what their bodies 'did'. I am not speaking for Transwomen here, but the women I know who have transitioned identify as WOMAN first and foremost. Then as lesbian or straight or bi, femme, butch, (or not at all) vegan, feminist, etc etc. It is very important for me, as an ally, to voice this distinction because it's easy for the most marginalized voices to get lost.

This is an interesting article about brain sex
http://www.newscientist.com/article/...rain-scan.html

I appreciate your post and your presence here, and wanted to speak up about that which bothered me respectfully, which I hope I have done.

In Solidarity,
j.

[Apocalipstic]

What a great thread!

I am really enjoying it.

What is a better way to say one will date Transmen, but not men biologically born men?

[~baby~doll~]

Originally Posted by femmeInterrupted

I'd like to gently respond to a piece in your post that I take issue with...specifically with the issue of a male with a transsexual experience, (transman) not 'counting' as a straight male. Regardless of his orientation, queer, bi or heterosexual, dismissing a Transman as not counting is entirely problematic. More so because it is also this belief that keeps women of transsexual histories and experience ( Transwomen) in a state of being 'othered' and not being seen or perceived as 'a real woman' also. Using genitals to make this distinction is also problematic. I assume that is what you meant when you said "gynesexual'? So a Transman without bottom surgery is still seen a 'really a woman' because ..... ? You can see how potentially disrespectful and derogatory that can be to a male who has transitioned. On the flip side of that, a woman who for what ever reasons cannot or does not have reconstructive bottom surgery is no less a woman for it. This is the pussy police crap that Michigan Women's Fest and other gate keepers use to oppress and discriminate out of ignorance.

I think there is a vast difference between sex and gender. There is biological sex. There is brain sex. Gender in and of itself is a social construct. It's an important distinction because identifying as gender queer, or gender fluid, or anywhere on that spectrum, is NOT the same thing as having a transsexual experience or history. In transitioning, people are aligning their bodies with their brains. Making right ( or right as possible) an often painful discrepancy between who they 'are' and what their bodies 'did'. I am not speaking for Transwomen here, but the women I know who have transitioned identify as WOMAN first and foremost. Then as lesbian or straight or bi, femme, butch, (or not at all) vegan, feminist, etc etc. It is very important for me, as an ally, to voice this distinction because it's easy for the most marginalized voices to get lost.

This is an interesting article about brain sex
http://www.newscientist.com/article/...rain-scan.html

I appreciate your post and your presence here, and wanted to speak up about that which bothered me respectfully, which I hope I have done.

In Solidarity,
j.

Thank you for the very polite and lovely post. i appreciate it.
i have done much reading on the myths of gender and the sociological construct and agree this is what gender is. Our sexuality is our mental makeup. If you look i myself identify as Third Gender. I do understand what you are saying.
i have not gone to the Michigan Women's Fest in eons because they are the gender police. i am totally against their policy.
Gynesexual and Gyneromantic means i relate only to females. i do not relate in either way to males. i do agree that transmen are fully male. i will stand behind that 100%. Something though inside of me allows me to go there. i cannot explain this. It is one of those mysteries of the mind and sensory nature of individuals human beings and how and what they process. i have been with fully transitioned transmen. i can't tell you or explain this in my nature. i can't say that it is something about personality. i can't say this is because of some chemical makeup. i have no idea.
i can say that i have had very bad experiences with a number of straight males in my life. A number of friends have experiences as bad or worse. Many women have and see life through a different lens than i do.
i do see where you are coming from and do agree transmen and transmen are every bit the gender they are before and after transitioning. i disagree with the idea of gender police.
i am sorry if this somehow seems offensive as i do agree with all you have said. Though i stand with you there is something which allows me to experience a transman in a sexual nature. Perhaps it will all come out in my ongoing walks through therapy.
i hope you can understand my particular quark. i mean no disrespect to transmen or transwomen. In fact i never or rarely use those terms and see everyone as the gender they state. ON sites like this i will use SYR, hym hy and so on but i do believe these separate our community rather than unite us. Though i do not believe there are only two genders i think the only people who should be called by these gender neutral terms are people who are outside of either gender or Third Gender/Gender=nul/Agender/genderqueer and so on. Anyone trans IMO should be called whatever gender they are.
i have rambled enough and say this in respect to the post you so lovingly crafted.
If you have any questions i am more then happy to respond and thank you
sincerely,
fayedoll

[The_Lady_Snow]

Liam can you share with us how this experience fits in the Femme Continuum? Do you have any other thoughts about the Femme experience?

[Liam]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Liam can you share with us how this experience fits in the Femme Continuum? Do you have any other thoughts about the Femme experience?

My post was in response to Bulldog's...

Originally Posted by BullDog

There seems to be awful lot of rules for what women can look like (and act like) and be seen and taken seriously as queer/lesbian.

It seems hyper feminine is seen as the top of the femme hierarchy (most valued) but at the same time seen as the most suspect (supposedly more straight appearing), in terms of being legitimately queer/lesbian.

Why is feminine associated with straight and masculine associated with lesbian/queer when it comes to women?

particularly the statement I bolded. My experience has been that masculine is not associated with lesbian, and that is the only point I was making. As I stated earlier, that is the only comment I would be making in this thread, but thanks for asking.