The Femme Continuum: The "Highs" and "Lows" of Visibility

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Pretty Woman

On this site, just a few weeks. On the other site for awhile. But I didn't know that there was a training period here before folks are allowed to chime in. And honestly, I could say the same by the nature of your post and the inferences about me.

Hi PW,

There isn't a training period for anything, just like there is no way to say what makes someone gay or not make sense?

Can you share your Femme experience with us? please..

Thank you.

[Pretty Woman]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Hi PW,

There isn't a training period for anything, just like there is no way to say what makes someone gay or not make sense?

Can you share your Femme experience with us? please..

Thank you.

Thanks for the open door, Lady Snow. And yes what you say does make sense and I get the connection but I just happen not to be interested too much in supporting folks that are just coming out. We can discuss later if you'd like. I realize it's not a popular opinion here.
Not sure where to start to introduce my femmeness to the rest of you on this thread. Let's see. Out as a femme for about 3 decades (although I didn't have the language for it back then) starting in a small town in GA where there were lots of butches (on a military base) and not so many visible femmes. Moved to DC--NO FEMMES TO BE FOUND, and not so many butches either. Been in NYC for about 20 years and landed first at the Lesbian Herstory Archives where the founders--Joan Nestle and Deb Edel--really introduced me to BF herstory and I began to lean into my own femme identity.
My first BF sexual experience was with a butch who notched her belt on newly minted femmes, straight women exploring sexuality to be more to the point. At the time that worked for me too as I was interested in another butch but had no sexual experience and didn't want to try it out first with someone that I was way more than a little bit hot for. And, I had one relationship that ended when the butch figured hy was more attracted to elusive and challenging straight women than to femmes. Devestated at the time but in retrospect a great learning for me.
I look very straight on first glance, but as you wrote in an earlier post here, it doesn't take 5 minutes in a conversation to figure out that I'm femme. In some sense the fact that in my earlier life I 'could pass' helped me to come out. I was tired of the heteronormative assumptions by everyone, including a very dyke older boss at the time. I have a son who I raised alone (he's 33 now) and in addition to my appearance that sealed the straight assumption since it was long before butches and femmes had babies of their own accord.
I work in a field dominated by straight men and I know that I've fully swallowed my femme self because none of them try to hit on me anymore!
Enough rambling for now, but happy to say more as we get to know each other here.

[SassyLeo]

Originally Posted by Pretty Woman

Thanks for the open door, Lady Snow. And yes what you say does make sense and I get the connection but I just happen not to be interested too much in supporting folks that are just coming out. We can discuss later if you'd like. I realize it's not a popular opinion here.
Not sure where to start to introduce my femmeness to the rest of you on this thread. Let's see. Out as a femme for about 3 decades (although I didn't have the language for it back then) starting in a small town in GA where there were lots of butches (on a military base) and not so many visible femmes. Moved to DC--NO FEMMES TO BE FOUND, and not so many butches either. Been in NYC for about 20 years and landed first at the Lesbian Herstory Archives where the founders--Joan Nestle and Deb Edel--really introduced me to BF herstory and I began to lean into my own femme identity.
My first BF sexual experience was with a butch who notched her belt on newly minted femmes, straight women exploring sexuality to be more to the point. At the time that worked for me too as I was interested in another butch but had no sexual experience and didn't want to try it out first with someone that I was way more than a little bit hot for. And, I had one relationship that ended when the butch figured hy was more attracted to elusive and challenging straight women than to femmes. Devestated at the time but in retrospect a great learning for me.
I look very straight on first glance, but as you wrote in an earlier post here, it doesn't take 5 minutes in a conversation to figure out that I'm femme. In some sense the fact that in my earlier life I 'could pass' helped me to come out. I was tired of the heteronormative assumptions by everyone, including a very dyke older boss at the time. I have a son who I raised alone (he's 33 now) and in addition to my appearance that sealed the straight assumption since it was long before butches and femmes had babies of their own accord.
I work in a field dominated by straight men and I know that I've fully swallowed my femme self because none of them try to hit on me anymore!
Enough rambling for now, but happy to say more as we get to know each other here.

I am having a very hard time with what you are saying here... in one sentence you say...

Originally Posted by Pretty Woman

...landed first at the Lesbian Herstory Archives where the founders--Joan Nestle and Deb Edel--really introduced me to BF herstory and I began to lean into my own femme identity.

And you also say...

Originally Posted by Pretty Woman

I just happen not to be interested too much in supporting folks that are just coming out.

I'm not saying you should be the poster child for coming out as Queer or Femme or whatever... but in this thinking, it's like not caring about how you got to where you are today. They helped you figure yourself out by the introduction to Herstory, yet you have no interest in keeping that movement and vision alive by continuing to support it?

I'm incredibly perplexed by this...

[Pretty Woman]

I'll rephrase to say that I was always way out before I moved to NYC and should have more aptly described the experience with the femmes and butches there as my first community experience with butch and femme. Sometimes I don't write very clearly. Sorry.

Originally Posted by SassyLeo

I am having a very hard time with what you are saying here... in one sentence you say...



And you also say...



I'm not saying you should be the poster child for coming out as Queer or Femme or whatever... but in this thinking, it's like not caring about how you got to where you are today. They helped you figure yourself out by the introduction to herstory, yet you have no interest in keeping that movement and vision alive by continuing to support it?

I'm incredibly perplexed by this...

[PinkieLee]

I know that for ME, getting to know the vast array of femmes that I have, has helped me evolve (and continue to evolve) into the femme that I am... one that is finally comfortable in my own skin. When I came out at 23, my social circle was very limited to my local gay community... where the butch-femme community was not present at all. It wasn't until I was in my late 20s and started meeting folks from all over (thanks to the wonderful internet), that I actually started embracing & claiming being femme... instead of just being "the girlie girl".

Luckily over the last 15 years, I've met some amazing femmes, that showed me that we come in all shapes and sizes, that we are more than what we look like, more than who we fuck & how we fuck, and we write our own story. If it weren't for those people, embracing the "newly femme", I wouldn't be who I am today.

So THANK YOU for leading by example, for showing the rest of the world that femme is whatever, whoever and however we claim it to be for ourselves!

[Apocalipstic]

I think it is very important to be there as a source of help for people just coming out. I wish I had had someone I looked up to in the community back in the early 80's to help me along.

One of the main reasons I participate on this website is to help provide a place for Femmes and Butches who have no actual community in their areas to have resources to find friends and ask questions.

Outside of really large cities many of us never saw or knew another Femmes till we found community on the Internet. Yes, I have wonderful Femme friends in real time now, and I am so thankful for them and for those who try to reach out to the newly out and the youth among us.

Thank you Medusa for this thread and for this website! You actually were one of the Femmes I met at my very first Butch-Femme function and I will never forget that.

[ravfem]

Years before i figured out i was gay, i was attracted to butches. i didn't discover the b-f community until i came online. There is no b-f community at all here in my SC. Once i started spending time online, i figured out i was femme. When i called myself that to a friend here, she blew it off and said, "whatever". Since that time, i've usually felt a little defensive of my femme-ness, and unsure of it at times too. i have never been what i perceive to be "high" femme...i don't wear make-up or skirts on a daily basis, my nails haven't been properly done in years, i am not a fashion-conscious girl at all.
i've had to make that clear to more than one butch who was more attracted to our "norm" of what a femme is.

i have noticed that in a chat room, many butches will pay more attention to the 'high' femmes, but it's usually in a overtly flirty way, which i'm fine missing out on, personally.

There is one particular femme online that, when i see her pictures, i automatically think, "yeah, i'll never be as femme as her". Then logic kicks in and i start thinking about how much time, energy and money she must expend to maintain that look.... i just don't have it in me!

i've had this internal struggle for many years, and not just with my femme-ness. i often say that my insides don't match my outsides.

Outside, i look like a 40-something generic, overweight, average soccer mom. i blend in to society-at-large well (except for my socks, which i think is as comfortable as i'll ever be outwardly expressing my individuality). Inside, i am a free-flowing hippie. i am thinner, younger and wear hippie-ish skirts. i am much less prudish, mainstream and much more "free".

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by ravfem

Years before i figured out i was gay, i was attracted to butches. i didn't discover the b-f community until i came online. There is no b-f community at all here in my SC. Once i started spending time online, i figured out i was femme. When i called myself that to a friend here, she blew it off and said, "whatever". Since that time, i've usually felt a little defensive of my femme-ness, and unsure of it at times too. i have never been what i perceive to be "high" femme...i don't wear make-up or skirts on a daily basis, my nails haven't been properly done in years, i am not a fashion-conscious girl at all.
i've had to make that clear to more than one butch who was more attracted to our "norm" of what a femme is.

i have noticed that in a chat room, many butches will pay more attention to the 'high' femmes, but it's usually in a overtly flirty way, which i'm fine missing out on, personally.

There is one particular femme online that, when i see her pictures, i automatically think, "yeah, i'll never be as femme as her". Then logic kicks in and i start thinking about how much time, energy and money she must expend to maintain that look.... i just don't have it in me!

i've had this internal struggle for many years, and not just with my femme-ness. i often say that my insides don't match my outsides.

Outside, i look like a 40-something generic, overweight, average soccer mom. i blend in to society-at-large well (except for my socks, which i think is as comfortable as i'll ever be outwardly expressing my individuality). Inside, i am a free-flowing hippie. i am thinner, younger and wear hippie-ish skirts. i am much less prudish, mainstream and much more "free".

(((((((((((rav)))))))))) hell girl I get where you are coming from, cause if I am home, I have no make up on, pajama pants, a-line t-shirt hair all nappy and pulled back.. I will go out like this too if I need to run and errand, flips flops and bad toe nails and all!!

Them are just props honey, make up, glitter, hair iron, blah! Femme is who we are inside, and our gender nothing to do with the smoke and mirrors!

Though I will tell you, with 5 kids if I had to drive a mini van ever, I would of screamed bloody murder, they weren't macho enough for me! ha!

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

(((((((((((rav)))))))))) hell girl I get where you are coming from, cause if I am home, I have no make up on, pajama pants, a-line t-shirt hair all nappy and pulled back.. I will go out like this too if I need to run and errand, flips flops and bad toe nails and all!!

Them are just props honey, make up, glitter, hair iron, blah! Femme is who we are inside, and our gender nothing to do with the smoke and mirrors!

Though I will tell you, with 5 kids if I had to drive a mini van ever, I would of screamed bloody murder, they weren't macho enough for me! ha!

OK, though I did unfortunately have a mini can briefly. Cough.

I also can most usually be found in PJ pants and a line shirt with hair pulled back unless I am at work.

[PinkieLee]

I find it refreshing that as time goes by, more femmes are becoming vocal about how they embrace femme. By speaking out, we can start breaking down those "stepford wives" sterotypes that so many people have stuck in their head of what femmes should be.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by ravfem

Years before i figured out i was gay, i was attracted to butches. i didn't discover the b-f community until i came online. There is no b-f community at all here in my SC. Once i started spending time online, i figured out i was femme. When i called myself that to a friend here, she blew it off and said, "whatever". Since that time, i've usually felt a little defensive of my femme-ness, and unsure of it at times too. i have never been what i perceive to be "high" femme...i don't wear make-up or skirts on a daily basis, my nails haven't been properly done in years, i am not a fashion-conscious girl at all.
i've had to make that clear to more than one butch who was more attracted to our "norm" of what a femme is.

i have noticed that in a chat room, many butches will pay more attention to the 'high' femmes, but it's usually in a overtly flirty way, which i'm fine missing out on, personally.

There is one particular femme online that, when i see her pictures, i automatically think, "yeah, i'll never be as femme as her". Then logic kicks in and i start thinking about how much time, energy and money she must expend to maintain that look.... i just don't have it in me!

i've had this internal struggle for many years, and not just with my femme-ness. i often say that my insides don't match my outsides.

Outside, i look like a 40-something generic, overweight, average soccer mom. i blend in to society-at-large well (except for my socks, which i think is as comfortable as i'll ever be outwardly expressing my individuality). Inside, i am a free-flowing hippie. i am thinner, younger and wear hippie-ish skirts. i am much less prudish, mainstream and much more "free".

Remember that many of those photos are taken at events where everyone is more dressed up than usual!

I remember someone saw an old avatar of me in a feather boa. It was taken when I had on a ton of makeup, false eyelashes and was dressed up for a Slut Night. She expected that I always dressed like that...she actually acted dissapointed when she met me and I did not have on make up and had on yoga pants and a t shirt.

The High/Low Femme freaks me out. I think it puts pressure on us to dress or act a certain way, when we should just be ourselves.

[PinkieLee]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

Remember that many of those photos are taken at events where everyone is more dressed up than usual!

I remember someone saw an old avatar of me in a feather boa. It was taken when I had on a ton of makeup, false eyelashes and was dressed up for a Slut Night. She expected that I always dressed like that...she actually acted dissapointed when she met me and I did not have on make up and had on yoga pants and a t shirt.

The High/Low Femme freaks me out. I think it puts pressure on us to dress or act a certain way, when we should just be ourselves.

I can soooo relate to this, too!

When I walked into the lobby at the Dallas Bash (yep, my first official B-F function), I was wearing a tank top, shorts & flip flops and everyday makeup. I smiled and gave the nod to many people that I recognized (because I am a gallery whore). It wasn't until I went upstairs, changed clothes, and came down (in full hair extensions & makeup) that someone finally said, "hey, you're PinkieLee".

Yep, I know that is partly my fault, for only posting pictures of me looking a certain way. Over the years, I've started showing more of Tonya and less of PinkieLee. Some people like to see the many different femme faces that I wear... others only want to see the party girl side of me. See, yet again, another femme sterotype that I'm supposed to look like that 24/7.

I don't know a single femme that wears makeup every single day or shops at the grocery store in 4 inch heels.

[imperfect_cupcake]

y'know, reading this thread has been a reminder about things.

I've had the massive privilidge of living in two very different kinds of community (many subtle different kinds but two majour ones). I recall the most extreme of one being in Toronto where the nick name of it being "bois town" didn't quite sink in till I attended a 300+ queer night at Buddies. "WOW! OMG! wall to wall butchez!! I am. so. lucky. Look at them all! gosh.... just so.... many... and.... ahhhhhh. um. there's ah. five femmes? ??? oh. Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. oh CRAP > " and I did find out that unless you were an aogressive/assertive hard working/networking full-on femme top, as a femme you didn't have a chance. One friend actually cut all her hair off, dressed in dungarees and pretended to be a "faye" boi bottom - and got a lot of action. Till she fell in love and very slowly came out to her Daddy. very slowly explaining that just because she was femme, did not mean she was shallow, demanding, materialistic, high matinance emotionally, wanting to be served and pandered to while being submissive etc.

it confused me to tears because here were all these very strong, independant, mouthy femmes that organised so many community events and worked with the bisexual women's community to make sure it was integrated, many worked very hard with the gay men's leather community to get integrated sunday brunches going etc. Yet the common perception of a femme was "I don't want to pander to a spoilt demanding child." Which threw me. It you look at the programme of Mad Men and look at Don Draper's wife, Peggy, how immature, dependant, demanding and looks orientated and confused she is, that's the view of femmes in a relationship I was under the impression the larger masculine ID'd community of lesbians thought of us. It seemed that although the masculine ID'd were pretty swinging (in that they enjoyed submissive bois and very toppy femmes who didn't seem allowed to have needs) the stereotype was still pervasive in people's heads about femme femininity.

This probably has changed somewhat as it's been 10 years since I've lived there and I know the feminist porn awards are there now etc.

When I moved to london, gosh I can't tell you how different it became. It was like a veil lifted off me that wieghed two sacks of wet cement. I was seen. And yes, many times people thought I was straight or bisexual, but here's the key, they didn't give a sh*t and still tried to chat me up in the bar or give me an appreciative once over on the tube. I'd like to state this is a London phenomena, I know it changes when you leave London. There are also so many lesbian clubs, bars, nights and venues I can't possibly know them all.

And because of this and because of a very organsied and outgoing Individual who moved to london from her country, club wotever was started. and from that little wee club of generqueer that turned into club nights, weekly bar nights, movie nights and a sex club - club fuk (which just closed) and then started Bird Club because she felt there needed to be a feminine (she doesn't ID as femme, she ID's as Bird, which is the working class name for girl and she's very political in that way) gender queer club (temporarily closed due to lack of venue but she's still looking).

But the difference in visual acceptance I got between vancouver, seattle, calgary, toronto, portland...vs London is unfathomable if you haven't experienced that kind of visual immediate acceptance. I'm not talking about the lesbian nod, which I still don't get - though in oxford I've had it twice when I've been out with my wife. And everytime it happens I'm always gobsmacked and pleased down to my teeniest toe. But the casualness of acceptance in queer space. the tone is very different. there's an ease that I know I can just be. I don't have to be ever so slightly tense all night cause I'm going to get "those looks" or get challenged at the door or if not verbally by the scowl as I walk in. or some drunk will come up and say something stupid about straight girls in pubs.

Or worse, that feeling you have the words "serial killer" painted on your forehead if you go to a pub on your own and no one will talk to you, even though you've tried a couple times to start polite convo with people beside you. but they will stare.

that doesn't happen in London, not in my experience. The cloak of invisibility isn't nearly as smothering. I get some of the same stereotype assumptions of what I'm like as a person: high strung, demanding, constant need for attention etc but that's really just from mouthy young baby dykes at clubs who are pretty high matinance and attention seeking themselves but fail to claim these charming traights because they happen to see themselves as masculine. They figure it out later that it's a personality traight, not a gender trait. and frankly I don't have to be around them till they figure it out cause there's enough people who know I'm an individual with individual personality traits and I do not have a borg personality just because I'm wearing heels.

[SassyLeo]

Originally Posted by Pretty Woman

I'll rephrase to say that I was always way out before I moved to NYC and should have more aptly described the experience with the femmes and butches there as my first community experience with butch and femme. Sometimes I don't write very clearly. Sorry.

Ok thanks.

Maybe I just have a different perspective since, again, I grew up in Queer households... where the role models were not a plenty.

...I still don't "get" how you can be gateful and thankful to those who helped you come out -whether it was as a lesbian/queer/femme- (and specifically citing Lesbian Herstory Archives), yet not have any interest in supporting those who are just coming out.

It's kind of like denouncing your heritage, in my opinion.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Pretty Woman

Thanks for the open door, Lady Snow. And yes what you say does make sense and I get the connection but I just happen not to be interested too much in supporting folks that are just coming out. We can discuss later if you'd like. I realize it's not a popular opinion here.
Not sure where to start to introduce my femmeness to the rest of you on this thread. Let's see. Out as a femme for about 3 decades (although I didn't have the language for it back then) starting in a small town in GA where there were lots of butches (on a military base) and not so many visible femmes. Moved to DC--NO FEMMES TO BE FOUND, and not so many butches either. Been in NYC for about 20 years and landed first at the Lesbian Herstory Archives where the founders--Joan Nestle and Deb Edel--really introduced me to BF herstory and I began to lean into my own femme identity.
My first BF sexual experience was with a butch who notched her belt on newly minted femmes, straight women exploring sexuality to be more to the point. At the time that worked for me too as I was interested in another butch but had no sexual experience and didn't want to try it out first with someone that I was way more than a little bit hot for. And, I had one relationship that ended when the butch figured hy was more attracted to elusive and challenging straight women than to femmes. Devestated at the time but in retrospect a great learning for me.
I look very straight on first glance, but as you wrote in an earlier post here, it doesn't take 5 minutes in a conversation to figure out that I'm femme. In some sense the fact that in my earlier life I 'could pass' helped me to come out. I was tired of the heteronormative assumptions by everyone, including a very dyke older boss at the time. I have a son who I raised alone (he's 33 now) and in addition to my appearance that sealed the straight assumption since it was long before butches and femmes had babies of their own accord.
I work in a field dominated by straight men and I know that I've fully swallowed my femme self because none of them try to hit on me anymore!
Enough rambling for now, but happy to say more as we get to know each other here.

Awesome that you know all those people!! Thanks for sharing, we have to agree to disagree, but I am all about supporting the people who are just out, you see I have a daughter who is out and supporting her is my responsibility as a Mom and as a Queer..