Butch/Femme Dynamic vs "Masculinity" and "Femininity"

[Daywalker]

...sometimes I feel like, when having a lively debate based on the Gender
comparisons with Butch/Femme vs Masculinity/Femininity ~ that there is
such a negative attachment to being compared to Heterosexual
characteristics ~ I dunno, maybe it sounds silly...but it makes
me feel like I am 'dissin' my own Parents.

That probably sounds funny.

And it probably did not come out the way
it formed in mah head just now.

But I found myself compelled to share it.

[SelfMadeMan]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Masculinity does not equal male. Not in queer circles it doesn't. I believe that women who claim masculinity as part of themselves expand the possibilities of what women are and can be and that is very liberating to me.

YES!!! I believe that a woman can be as as masculine as they choose with NO boundaries on what that means to them, and not have their gender ID called in to question!

Nice to 'see' you again by the way

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

YES!!! I believe that a woman can be as as masculine as they choose with NO boundaries on what that means to them, and not have their gender ID called in to question!

Nice to 'see' you again by the way

Thanks Mike, absolutely! It's great to see you again too.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Day, I don't mind dissing the way my parents were brought up, it's oppressive, depressing and so damn heteronormative that it took years for them to even get the gay wasn't going away. Me dissing how they think things should be when it comes to gender doesn't take away my love for them or how I feel about them. I have come to a place in my life I don't placate to their bullshit, I am outspoken even with them it's very few the special pass they get.

[*Anya*]

I may not be able to define the masculine butch woman but I sure know her when I see and *feel* her-when I get that electric charge!

Conversely, the same with my femme sisters- minus the electric charge, of course

[PumaJ]

Just for clarification... here's some of what *I* believe:

You can be born biologically female and ID as male and deserve to be respected as such (with or without medical intervention) and vice versa

You can be male or female (biologically or not) and be butch, or femme, or masculine or androgynous - or any other label that works for YOU, or REFUSE to be labeled - regardless of what anyone else thinks or assumes

You can be butch and wear make-up, wear anything that you choose - ANYTHING and still be butch and be respected as such.

You can be femme and wear jeans and steel toe boots and t-shirts, or ANYTHING else you choose and still be femme and respected as such.

You can be/do YOU - any way YOU choose, and not have to pick a label - just be YOU.

If you are TG and don't want to take hormones, and don't want to have your breasts removed, you are no less TG.

I believe everyone has the right to ID however they choose and say THIS is who I am - and not have to justify their identity to anyone. Period.

Hear, hear, SelfMadeMan

[Jett]

I don't think there's anything wrong with the organic state of masculinity, femininity or mascuninity etc., or acknowledging their existence. Just more with how we as humans sometimes think we are the gatekeepers of them, or project them in an unhealthy and outwardly harmful manner- assign them concretely to ones or others sex, gender or identity. Masculinity, femininity, like a baseball bat in your hands you can hit a ball out of the park with it... or hit yourself or someone else over the head with it... either way it's not the baseball bats fault.

On a personal note the thought of using the words Butch/Femme (or butchness/femmeness) to somehow "take the place" of masculinity/femininity (OP)? I myself have inward and some outwardly feminine attributes that do not alter or affect my masculine ones and it does not make me a Femme in any way... so I'm not a Femme nor is it "femme-ness" but I still cherish those attributes as much as my masculine ones, they are as strong, powerful and beautiful and I wouldn't wish to obscure them with another word or lose my ability to convey that in favor of anything else that doesn't mean (IMO) the same thing.

Hopefully conveyed the jist of what I'm trying to say, I know I confused the hell out of myself the first time I wrote it and had to make some hellish editing xD. Dunno *shrugs* I just think we leave ourselves even more open to stereotypical assumptions when we limit our language rather than expand it.

Peace

[PumaJ]

We Femmes & Butches got treated very poorly & disrespectfully, during the "Women's Liberation" time of second wave feminism, by those we knew as "political" lesbians. That is, those who chose to be lesbian as a political action/statement against the patriarchy. In their eyes, we Femmes & Butches were merely imitating the world of the dominant heterosexual culture. Butches were viewed as mimicking men, or "pretending" to be men. The relationship between Butches & Femmes was totally misunderstood. These "political" lesbians were completely ignorant regarding the erotic, sexual, & relational dynamic between Butches & Femmes. They were completely clueless about how the power intrinsic in such relationships between women, had less than zero to do with men & everything to do with a different way of being women.

I came out when the Butch-Femme community was still strong in San Francisco. It would be at least another year or so before much ruckus would be raised by the "political" lesbians about Butch & Femme. Second wave feminism has given us a lot, but the carry over from, what in my opinion was a form of homophobia, still seems to trouble us.

A dictionary definition of butch is this:

butch
A (traditionally) masculine man or woman, and especially a masculine lesbian. Often the "dominant" partner in a lesbian relationship, and especially of a butch/femme lesbian relationship.

Women being Butch, owning Butch, & claiming their own lesbian masculinity has less than zero to do with the masculinity of men, or of the dominant heterosexual culture. Rather it is a masculinity of women. It is male energy expressed through the female form, thus is entirely female, though male. As such, it bends gender, & to my way of thinking creates a way of being that is neither female or male, but both in one, i.e., Butch or Boi, or Stud, or AG, or any of the other terms currently in use to define it.

This is long, I realize, but I do want to close with some words on the subject of Butch by poet Judy Grahn from her book, "Another Mother Tongue".

"…the butch is ceremonially speaking, Puck. Cross dressing is a magical function, & the butch is the equivalent of the traditional cross dresser who may become a magical/shaman of the tribe. She is the one who cross-dresses, becomes a hunter or a soothsayer or a prophet or the first woman in a formerly all-male occupation. She keeps the idea of biological destiny untenable".

[lisa93]

I think everyone has a bit of both qualities in them.

[Kätzchen]

Originally Posted by *Anya*

I may not be able to define the masculine butch woman but I sure know her when I see and *feel* her-when I get that electric charge!

Conversely, the same with my femme sisters- minus the electric charge, of course

I can totally relate to this, Anya.....

recently a special someone (butch) told me that I was electrifying to them....which they have the same effect on me.

That... electrifying exchange of power between an butch and a femme.... it's very real.

[cathexis]

That electrifying energy is what I refer to as Alpha energy. It is a self confidence that can momentarily cause people in a room to look towards the door they're walking in.

Sometimes, their aura seems as big as an elephant. It spreads out, filling space. Is this the energy you're writing of?

My Partner is a Butch with this type of aura.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by Kätzchen

I can totally relate to this, Anya.....

recently a special someone (butch) told me that I was electrifying to them....which they have the same effect on me.

That... electrifying exchange of power between an butch and a femme.... it's very real.

Yep, no two ways about it. That butch-femme energy is amazing and very VERY distinct.

I am loving all these bumped gender threads!

[FTM4femme]

I have a question for the butches mostly but anyone is willing to comment if you have feedback. I am a FTM myself who obviously used to identify as butch. One thing I noticed was that I would always feel this masculinity competition between me and another butch I was around. I am wondering if this is something true butches feel as well or is this a characteristic of FTMs? Thoughts? I felt like for myself, I don’t experience that feeling anymore around butches but only usually other FTms or cis males. I am not usually an uber competitive person so it’s an odd concept for me. I don’t mean to offend anyone it is just something that I have noticed and wondered but never asked anyone.

[Tuff Stuff]

I don't think i'm mimicking a man in any way or form.Personally I don't compete for a person's affection.A mature person already knows what they like and don't like in a partner..either they want a butch woman or not..maybe they like a butch FTM..or butch cis-male ect.I know I love femininity,been attracted to it since I was a little girl.I can spot it a mile away and when it comes my way,i wanna jump it's bones.Personally speaking for myself I don't display much femininity if any at all.The cis-men I usually go for have that tenderness that I associate with being feminine.I don't have insecurities about my masculinity,i was born this way and I could not hide it even if I tried..btw,i've never tried.I love a femmes energy and I love a feminine persons energy,period.I had jealous boyfriends want to kick my ass before and what not..all I had to do was walk in a room and their girlfriend stared a minute too long and bam!,her man hates my guts.Even today, I still have to deter a jealous nature by keeping eye contact with the masculine male species of the two.*snort*

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by FTM4femme

I have a question for the butches mostly but anyone is willing to comment if you have feedback. I am a FTM myself who obviously used to identify as butch. One thing I noticed was that I would always feel this masculinity competition between me and another butch I was around. I am wondering if this is something true butches feel as well or is this a characteristic of FTMs? Thoughts? I felt like for myself, I don’t experience that feeling anymore around butches but only usually other FTms or cis males. I am not usually an uber competitive person so it’s an odd concept for me. I don’t mean to offend anyone it is just something that I have noticed and wondered but never asked anyone.

No I have never felt I was in any sort of masculinity competition with anyone - other butches, FTMs or cis males. My masculinity is my own and I don't feel the need to compete with anyone over it.

[girl_dee]

Originally Posted by BullDog

No I have never felt I was in any sort of masculinity competition with anyone - other butches, FTMs or cis males. My masculinity is my own and I don't feel the need to compete with anyone over it.

i wish this were true for me. i have compared my *level* of femme to other femmes.

i feel inadequate in that department but i am working on it.

no matter what, i am femme whatever the level is.

[CherryWine]

Originally Posted by girl_dee

i wish this were true for me. i have compared my *level* of femme to other femmes.

i feel inadequate in that department but i am working on it.

no matter what, i am femme whatever the level is.

Imagine how boring the butch/femme community would be if we were all the same "level" of butch or femme. We come in many different flavors, and, to me, that is a wonderful thing.

[JDeere]

Originally Posted by girl_dee

i wish this were true for me. i have compared my *level* of femme to other femmes.

i feel inadequate in that department but i am working on it.

no matter what, i am femme whatever the level is.

I feel the exact same way with my butchness, I feel very very inadequate a big majority of the time.

[girl_dee]

Originally Posted by JDeere

I feel the exact same way with my butchness, I feel very very inadequate a big majority of the time.

((( Jdeere ))))

[girl_dee]

Originally Posted by CherryWine

Imagine how boring the butch/femme community would be if we were all the same "level" of butch or femme. We come in many different flavors, and, to me, that is a wonderful thing.

thank you!

i have been called out about not being feminine enough and that weighs on me.

i’ve moved on but there are moments.....