Butch & Transmen Friendship: Mutual Support

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Linus

From the OP:




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Linus thank you

I am to busy with a soon to be 10 year old to have read it all...

I appreciate the clarification, for now I can post some thoughts.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Linus thank you

I am to busy with a soon to be 10 year old to have read it all...

I appreciate the clarification, for now I can post some thoughts.

wow 10 already? how time flies

i know wrong thread

[weatherboi]

Hi again!

I am gonna attempt to explain some of my perspective on this subject so please everybody bear with me and be patient.

My first relationship ended because my best friend who was/is butch betrayed me by sleeping with my first girlfriend. We had been together several years when this happened and I had been friends with said butch for about 3 years. I moved on but not without some baggage that still to this day enters into my relationships.

I would like to see us discuss codes of ethics we should all be living by in order to respect one another. We all have them in our circles.

1.You don't steal or sleep with another butches/trans/guys partner, lover, girl, or woman.

2.Use preferred pronouns when addressing each other.

3. If a butch buddy or trans or guy friend asks me about someone they are interested in I feel it is my duty to be honest with them in a way that is not bashing but is straight forward about my experience of that person.

These are just some thoughts folks!!!

[Linus]

Originally Posted by weatherboi

I would like to see us discuss codes of ethics we should all be living by in order to respect one another. We all have them in our circles.

1.You don't steal or sleep with another butches/trans/guys partner, lover, girl, or woman.

Personally, I think that there are two people in this scenario: both the butch and your first g/f did the cheating. Neither is to be excluded and both parties were willing participants.

To me, the idea that one shouldn't "steal" a lover, partner, etc. suggests -- TO ME -- the idea that a woman is chattel (sp?) and owned. If she chooses to find someone else (and it's not a poly relationship), then there is more going on there.

[weatherboi]

no doubt about that Linus but we are discussing the butch side of it...not the ex side of it. as far as your opinion about that i am implying that women are owned that is not where i am coming from and i am sorry you choose to view it that way. sooo thanks for the patience and understanding that i asked for.

Originally Posted by Linus

Personally, I think that there are two people in this scenario: both the butch and your first g/f did the cheating. Neither is to be excluded and both parties were willing participants.

To me, the idea that one shouldn't "steal" a lover, partner, etc. suggests -- TO ME -- the idea that a woman is chattel (sp?) and owned. If she chooses to find someone else (and it's not a poly relationship), then there is more going on there.

[Linus]

Originally Posted by weatherboi

no doubt about that Linus but we are discussing the butch side of it...not the ex side of it. as far as your opinion about that i am implying that women are owned that is not where i am coming from and i am sorry you choose to view it that way. sooo thanks for the patience and understanding that i asked for.

But that is your personal view and there is nothing wrong with that. I simply stated my view in relation to what you posted and how it felt personally (this is why I stated it from my point of view and indicated the "personally" parts). I apologize for not being clearer on what I was trying to express.

Part of the support for each other is to recognize the differences as well as the similarities. Our world (and I'm referring to this in a wider general sense) is all about extremes of support or contrary. Society seems more intent on accepting extremes rather than recognizing the middle ground or middle way. Just because I do not agree with your point of view doesn't mean I do not respect you or your understanding.

I went through the "my g/f was stolen by.." point not too long ago (about 4 years now). I look back on it as a learning experience. It was not the butch's fault nor the g/f fault. It was reflective of the time and what was going on. It cost me a potential friendship with both because of my internal view of "ownership" and "how dare he!" thoughts.

To me -- and I'll emphasize that these are MY thoughts, MY views and are only to be view as that of the Linus -- the ethic of "no butch/transman/whatever should steal another's femme/girl/whatever" creates boundary lines and animosity in itself. Rather I would prefer to create deep friendships with those transmen/butches/whatever that would negate their desire to cause distrust.

Will it never happen again? Eh. Who knows? Anything is certainly possible. But for me personally, I find it creates lines where there shouldn't be any.

[Corkey]

Personally, I tend to keep to myself, if asked I'll be honest without giving the details. It is after all none of my business. What goes on between two consenting adults is none o' mine.
Pronouns are a given I'll respect yours if you respect mine.
Being an adult and taking responsibility for myself is all I can do.

[Dylan]

You know, when I'm having a conversation in real time...where I make most of my friends...I don't tend to pick apart the supposed underlying meanings of everything/sentence/word they use.

I think VERY often times here, conversations get mired in down in 'semantics wars'

How does this apply to this thread? Linus, I don't think there is anyone here who thinks weatherboi thinks of women as chattel. If for no other reason (besides I've never seen him say anything off color) than Snow would kick his ass.

Honestly, I think these gender wars start over stuff like this, and these things RARELY happen (to me anyways) in real time. Had I heard that sentence in real time, by someone I'm familiar with on the same level as weatherboi, I would probably concentrate on the meat of the entirety of the whole statement than a picking apart of semantics


Just Trying To 'Bond',
Dylan

[waxnrope]

Originally Posted by Linus

Personally, I think that there are two people in this scenario: both the butch and your first g/f did the cheating. Neither is to be excluded and both parties were willing participants.

To me, the idea that one shouldn't "steal" a lover, partner, etc. suggests -- TO ME -- the idea that a woman is chattel (sp?) and owned. If she chooses to find someone else (and it's not a poly relationship), then there is more going on there.

I agree with your first paragraph, Linus. However, I would argue, in the case of the second paragraph, that some femmes feel the same way about other femmes who steal their "guy", their butch, etc. And the same goes for some heteros as well. So, is chattel (you spelled it correctly) then, in your mind, gendered as you state here?

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by weatherboi

Hi again!

I am gonna attempt to explain some of my perspective on this subject so please everybody bear with me and be patient.

My first relationship ended because my best friend who was/is butch betrayed me by sleeping with my first girlfriend. We had been together several years when this happened and I had been friends with said butch for about 3 years. I moved on but not without some baggage that still to this day enters into my relationships.

I would like to see us discuss codes of ethics we should all be living by in order to respect one another. We all have them in our circles.

1.You don't steal or sleep with another butches/trans/guys partner, lover, girl, or woman.
2.Use preferred pronouns when addressing each other.

3. If a butch buddy or trans or guy friend asks me about someone they are interested in I feel it is my duty to be honest with them in a way that is not bashing but is straight forward about my experience of that person.

These are just some thoughts folks!!!

Code of Ethics.

For me, number one also includes not dating a friend's ex-girlfriend.

I would not say that it is "unethical" to date a friends ex-g.f. per say, and some people may even ask their friend if it would be ok, but for me, I find it best just to see anyone that any of my friends have dated as being "off limits". It just makes things a lot easier.

Anyone else follow this "rule"?

[weatherboi]

yes!!! i hold this same rule for myself.

Originally Posted by DapperButch

Code of Ethics.

For me, number one also includes not dating a friend's ex-girlfriend.

I would not say that it is "unethical" to date a friends ex-g.f. per say, and some people may even ask their friend if it would be ok, but for me, I find it best just to see anyone that any of my friends have dated as being "off limits". It just makes things a lot easier.

Anyone else follow this "rule"?

[Ebon]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

Code of Ethics.

For me, number one also includes not dating a friend's ex-girlfriend.

I would not say that it is "unethical" to date a friends ex-g.f. per say, and some people may even ask their friend if it would be ok, but for me, I find it best just to see anyone that any of my friends have dated as being "off limits". It just makes things a lot easier.

Anyone else follow this "rule"?

I think it's a good rule to follow. There are plenty of beautiful women out there to choose from. Now that being said, has anyone ever dated an ex's friend or does that fall into the same category?

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by Organicbutch

I think it's a good rule to follow. There are plenty of beautiful women out there to choose from. Now that being said, has anyone ever dated an ex's friend or does that fall into the same category?

I think it is a different category, but I have never done that either. Nor do I think I would.

I tend to not have regular contact with my ex-g.f.s, subsequently, I tend to not continue friendships with that person's closest friends.

To use Liam's words, I tend to like thing "clean" and "simple" in my life. Relationships are tough enough, adding in nebulous boundaries can make them harder!

[Ebon]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

I think it is a different category, but I have never done that either. Nor do I think I would.

I tend to not have regular contact with my ex-g.f.s, subsequently, I tend to not continue friendships with that person's closest friends.

To use Liam's words, I tend to like thing "clean" and "simple" in my life. Relationships are tough enough, adding in nebulous boundaries can make them harder!

Right on. Same here, except for one, I won't get into details. I know what you mean though. It's like a new chapter for me when the relationship is over, especially if it was ltr.

[weatherboi]

I think so because for me it gets a little incestuous (hope that word is ok to use and doesn't offend anybody).

Originally Posted by Organicbutch

I think it's a good rule to follow. There are plenty of beautiful women out there to choose from. Now that being said, has anyone ever dated an ex's friend or does that fall into the same category?

[Ebon]

Originally Posted by weatherboi

I think so because for me it gets a little incestuous (hope that word is ok to use and doesn't offend anybody).

Nope I see it all the time with another group of friends. This one is with that ones ex and this one is with that one ex and this one is with this ones mom. It gets ridiculous.

[Kosmo]

I don't know any transmen or other butches in real time. I sometimes feel like a phantom moving through the world. I can appear to be indecisive on certain subjects, but that's because I have a strong sense of seeing both sides of an issue and I greatly respect others opinions and their views. Not to say I don't have strong opinions, but real life interaction would be so beneficial at times.

I am glad to see this thread started. I have always noticed the online difficulties we as transmen and butches have had relating or communicating with each other and have always wondered why that is.

Is it because we've all had our share of struggles in negotiating the world, our self-identity, others expectations, etc. and we are more guarded and protective of that? Is it for fear of becoming left out? Is it competitive posturing for the attentions of femmes?

Just throwing some stuff out there.

I don't post a lot because life keeps me busy and I do have other interests, but this is a thread I will follow.

[Liam]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

Code of Ethics.

For me, number one also includes not dating a friend's ex-girlfriend.

I would not say that it is "unethical" to date a friends ex-g.f. per say, and some people may even ask their friend if it would be ok, but for me, I find it best just to see anyone that any of my friends have dated as being "off limits". It just makes things a lot easier.

Anyone else follow this "rule"?

I do, I think it keeps my friendships "cleaner," simpler and most definitely easier.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by Liam

I do, I think it keeps my friendships "cleaner," simpler and most definitely easier.

Exactly.

Like Corkey said, it never even enters my head.

[Hack]

Truth be told, I have very few butch friends online or in RT. I tend to not socialize in the queer world in RT. My closest friends are straight males. I had a big falling out with a lot of my butch friends a few years ago while going through a messy breakup that was characterized by one side as something it totally wasn't. There was a perception, I think, that I had done a dishonorable thing, when I really hadn't. Anyway, that whole experience sort of left a bad taste in my mouth. It's only recently that I have welcomed friendship from butches, and I like that I have someone I can talk to who automatically knows the shorthand, as it were. I do plan on being somewhat selective in my friendships based on lessons learned.

Jake