Butch & Transmen Friendship: Mutual Support

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by sharkchomp

No problem

I'm out.....

~~~shark~~~~~~~

I hope you come back. What you posted does belong, but, I can say it happens both ways and my intent here was to look at (not deny) these issues from a different way of relating to each other.

My off-line, real-time relationships with my trans friends are simply nothing like what happens here. And WE DO have these discussions all of the time. What goes on in our being able to see each other's viewpoints is that we have sound bonding as friends. Also, a history of in some cases, many years. Some have once identified as butch, others have not. There are transmasculine butches, too. Some have absolutely no interest in even being on a B-F site, others do and do have a point of personal reference with the B-F dynamic overall.

Maybe, I am just barking up the wrong tree in thinking that if we could apply some of how we interact outside of these sites, we can kick that line in the sand to the curb. If this true, I'll accept it. Can't change this by myself.

A couple of transguys have talked some about their understanding of butches and what we experience and have close butch friends. I have talked about this the other way around and even my protectiveness of trans friends sometimes. And they can be protective of me, too. Thus, my just not getting our gender/butch/trans-wars.

It is not lost on me that simply my having feminist, lesbian identifiers on my profile along with woman and butch can be the first (sometimes only) place a trans (and frankly, a MIB) member may come at me from a negative space. I can't fix this. However, my using these is not about anyone else but myself. Just as it is for trans members it is important for me to distinguish myself. And this just seems like something that is important to each individual person.

It has always stumped me why words, or sexual preferences, really, instead of content of ideas gets us in tangles. Let's take trans and butch out the equation and use stone or daddy, for example. Is that the entirety of the person? And why would someone take issue with these in the first place? They are what that person wants to have on their profile, for themselves. Yes, both have particular meanings, yet, it is just dumb to think you know everything about that person based on these terms.

There have been times I have thought, just put butch or nothing in that line. But, I'm not nothing and I am comfortable with my butch identity simply as it is. And I'm not going to change my profile just to appease others- and wouldn't want any one else to do this.

The only thing I know for myself is that it would be great if we could get this stuff put into perspectives that add to the community and understanding, not detract from it.

Actually, I feel that butch or trans is really not the problem, things get off to the races with sexual and political identification more here. Usually based upon false and preconceived notions with our reading between the lines (someone else brought this up). We all have personal biases, but certainly don't have to stay married to them.

Hell, I’ve had a PM come my way about this thread stating the person wasn’t a lesbian, so they were not going to join in. WTF? I don’t see lesbian in the title, do you? And I sure see a lot of posters that do not identify as lesbians posting here. Obviously, this person was only considering my profile as the OP and believing that that is who the thread is for. Jesus, I’ve even posted about some personal incidences with other lesbians that I found negative, especially towards a Transman friend of mine! Asshole, transphobic, anti-B-F lesbians exist. But, that isn’t going to change my sexual preference. I just have to tune-up as many as I can when they fuck with me or my trans friends. You know, educate….!!!

Like I said in the OP, as long as we remain civil, discuss whatever strikes you around all of this. I have to keep myself in check due to some of the hurtful crap that can happen and I think this fits for everyone. Sure, I've had my moments of anger, who hasn't? But, maybe we will get to a better way of communicating.

[DapperButch]

I too have been enjoying just how...pleasant it has all been. Really, really nice. And I would like it to remain the way it is.

BUT, I am a stickler for detail (lol) and with all due respect to others' opinions, I clearly remember a discussion (on this site), around Male Id'd Butches receiving male privilege. I remember it b/c it was so ludicrous. I remember one person asking, something along the lines of "And how exactly does the stranger know that the Butch identifies as male in order to give them male privilege?", or something like that.

I don't think that us not talking about the gender wars here is us being in denial. I also don't think that it is necessarily the calm before the storm. My hope is that some change has occurred in people's thinking and that there is more respect for the various masculine gender IDs and that things will be a bit different. My hope is that we will all do better in thinking before we react. My hope is that we all approach things assuming the intent is good from the poster.

P.S. I do not think that our Hug Fest will be complete unless Bull Dog joins us, though!

[Strappie]

I'm a Female ID'd Butch... I can't say I've ever heard or seen anyone saying "We are NOT anymore privileged then the next Id."

I feel everyone is equal in all aspect just that one might be strong than the next or more book smart or for that matter more street smart? Really why does every thing have to come down to "PRIVILEGES?"

[little man]

i have an ex-gf who used to tell me that i was too simplistic in my thinking. maybe she's right.

seems to me it'd be just fine if we'd just take one another for who we are and decide if we'd like to know each other any better. maybe a random pm here and there that just says, "hey, you seem like someone i'd like to know better."

some ppl i like, some ppl i don't like, and the rest i don't spend much time on either way. that's pretty much how my "real" life works.

i plan to be burdened with this "still life" i'm living for only a couple more years. once i'm debt free again, i'm hitting the road, going where the four winds blow me. when i travel, i tend to reach out to folks in whatever area i'm headed to so we can meet up and see how things go in a live situation. it's always a great treat for me, to hear the tone, inflection, nuance in a live conversation with people. i like getting that 'feel' for people by spending time with them and seeing their corner of this big ass planet.

for what it's worth...your mileage may vary.

[Ebon]

Originally Posted by little man

seems to me it'd be just fine if we'd just take one another for who we are and decide if we'd like to know each other any better. maybe a random pm here and there that just says, "hey, you seem like someone i'd like to know better."

Agreed!! Thank you. I understand labeling yourself and making sure other people understand it. If they don't take you as you are then eff em. The bird is the word! Meaning the middle finger.

[Andrew, Jr.]

Why can't people be people? Why can't we just all get along and celebrate who we are as we are. It is just that simple to me.

Andrew

[AtLast]

Thinking about how trust plays out here (a poster has brought this up earlier- sorry, sometimes I just can‘t recall a screen name). Sometimes, we just need to see how things go in more controversial (and topic areas that are just geared to issues/feelings we are going through at the moment) threads and see if we can trust that unwarranted shit won't get slung our way. Yanno, will I actually be heard? Now I'm going be quiet some and let the thread go where it goes and just listen/read.

[Corkey]

Ya' know it really comes down to listening to each other. We can't change who each one is, we have to accept. That's all there is to it. There is no war, what there is, is human behavior. There will always be personalities who don't get along, that's human. There will always be those who express themselves differently than another, and that's just fine (with me). What I don't want to see is our labels getting in the way of our humanity. I can agree to disagree, and still be (your) friend. I don't take (your) label and twist it into something that has no resemblance to who you say you are, that would be asinine. This is why I always look over <----- to see how one ID's. If it isn't there then I use gender neutral pronouns until I find out.
I will not always have in common (your) life experience, it doesn't mean I don't understand it, I just haven't lived it.
I will always have (your) back, we are all humans here living a human experience, how we interact is important. Let's try to understand each other and LISTEN. K?
Each and every one of you are important to me and this community, common ground is achievable.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by Corkey

Ya' know it really comes down to listening to each other. We can't change who each one is, we have to accept. That's all there is to it. There is no war, what there is, is human behavior. There will always be personalities who don't get along, that's human. There will always be those who express themselves differently than another, and that's just fine (with me). What I don't want to see is our labels getting in the way of our humanity. I can agree to disagree, and still be (your) friend. I don't take (your) label and twist it into something that has no resemblance to who you say you are, that would be asinine. This is why I always look over <----- to see how one ID's. If it isn't there then I use gender neutral pronouns until I find out.
I will not always have in common (your) life experience, it doesn't mean I don't understand it, I just haven't lived it.
I will always have (your) back, we are all humans here living a human experience, how we interact is important. Let's try to understand each other and LISTEN. K?
Each and every one of you are important to me and this community, common ground is achievable.

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

Thinking about how trust plays out here (a poster has brought this up earlier- sorry, sometimes I just can‘t recall a screen name). Sometimes, we just need to see how things go in more controversial (and topic areas that are just geared to issues/feelings we are going through at the moment) threads and see if we can trust that unwarranted shit won't get slung our way. Yanno, will I actually be heard? Now I'm going be quiet some and let the thread go where it goes and just listen/read.

I think these two posts say a lot.

I have to be honest...from my ME place.

I don't see this thread accomplishing very much (no offense, Atlast). Perhaps I'm still jaded after the Borders And Bridges thread (before some of y'all's time...same premise basically..it went straight down the shitter and got really ugly, then created and even uglier spin off thread with some of the most transphobic and evil shit I've ever seen posted). Perhaps, I think it's just going to be a lot of the same old 'butch bonding' stuff that never really goes anywhere. Perhaps I think it'll just be a little smooth over kumbaya until the next eruption. And why do I think there'll be another eruption? Because of the two posts above. We don't listen, and because of that, we don't trust.

How do I know we don't listen?

Because I posted something that as a transman *happens*. The first response is a person outside the male ID telling me it doesn't happen. Met, of course you don't see it happen...you're not male ID'd. I wasn't *asking* you if it happened, I was telling you it happens. Another female ID'd butch says the same thing. Again...I wasn't asking if it happens...I'm telling you it happens. Just like y'all say male pronouns are the default. Another male ID'd butch says the same thing, and he's told (again), "Uh Uh, this doesn't happen." No offense, but um, just cuz you don't see it, it doesn't mean its not happening.
The other response was, "Yeah? It goes both ways, dude! Here's what WE deal with."

Now, I'm NOT rehashing this! I'm merely pointing oput how we DO NOT listen, and how that turns into the b.s. that takes place. This is why people don't feel heard, and this is how the distrust happens, and this is why it's always so ugly when the shit blows up.


Dylan

[Corkey]

Perhaps Dylan, we need to be clearer when we say these things. Time date stamp kinds of reality. I can't address stuff that happened before my time, I can only address what has happened during my time. I prefer to leave the dash site shit at the dash site and not bring it here. New beginnings and all. I am always willing to listen, and yes some harsh shit has happened, to all genders, not going to say it hasn't. However I want to try to have a new day, with us all having our say, our life experience just as we live it, in real time. Online is not always real to me, there are trolls, instigators and just some nasty humans who lurk and pounce. Yea those folks need to knock it off with the shit-pot-stir, it goes nowhere and frankly is annoying the hell out of me. I do think there is more in common we all have than our differences, and I would be honored to explore those commonalities with all of (you).

[waxnrope]

It feels like some strong contrasts here, and admittedly, I don't know nothing about the past or about "gender wars." But I hear/see some overtures of bonding going on, the kumbaya as Dylan says. Then, there's a "but wait" kind of thing, where the past, the ugly past is brought up over and over again. Whatever that past might be, whatever the pattern/s that exist, isn't it possible to try again, to move forward. Kumbaya used to make everyone feel kind of good, albeit, short term. Perhaps we can take the feel good, the apparent progress (and I don't know if this is progress, but it feels like it) and not forget the past explosions, but take that which is good and push forward ... never forgetting what it could become? I'm not sure if this makes any sense. I'm approaching the time of night that my brain slows way down, but I hope that you get at least some of what I'm saying.
I really am disturbed to hear about all of this, and had hoped that it was possible to bond with, and make friends with, some of the butches and transmen here. I don't care about how you ID, and hope that you feel the same about me. And, yeah, Corky, we are just friggin' humans in the final count.

[Ebon]

Originally Posted by Dylan

"Perhaps, I think it's just going to be a lot of the same old 'butch bonding' stuff that never really goes anywhere. Perhaps I think it'll just be a little smooth over kumbaya until the next eruption."


Dylan

It's like you're expecting something bad to happen. From my life experience the thoughts that you put out is what the universe gives back. The OP was inclusive of all of us, butch/transmen. I think if anyone of us saw someone being transphobic they would be reported. Otherwise the thread would be hypocritical. I don't even know what Dash is aside from that shit my aunt used to sprinkle on her vegetables. I think everyone here has good intentions.

[AtLast]

Just going to add to my own post as I really don’t want to over post as the OP. This is everyone’s thread.

But some of the discussion about listening and trust building brought to wounding and just how deep and long-term wounds from other/prior thread - even in a different site- can fester. Seems human to me, really. I have some of these wounds and I know that it can take a long time to process these and get to the other side with them. It really does involve trust; especially online for me.

Some of the more controversial issues might get side stepped until people just feel like they can handle posting anything. And they ,might just have to do their own internal/personal healing or even forgiving processes before taking a chance. I don’t think there is a thing wrong with this.

Hopefully, this thread will take a new direction in the bonding/friendship department. Hope so. But, my guess is that all of us are going to have to walk on tip toes some until we get to a place that our own wounds immediately take over. There is no way I would have even started the thread if I had not tried to put a lot of things in perspective (and certainly not just my own perspectives).

LOL… you bet, I have to tell myself… hey, you don’t know what that person really means, if you don’t ask for clarification. So, shut-up, and try to get them and don’t make a dogging post- from the hip.

I agree there are issues that are deeply rooted that we need to deal with… but I am so into letting people take their own time with things and not jumping to conclusions because of past threads and discussions. Not an easy task!

It might be that the thread dies for a bit and then gets bumped and this could happen off and on just due to how we all need to pace ourselves. I actually believe that the hard stuff will get talked about… in the right time and trust frame…

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

Thinking about how trust plays out here (a poster has brought this up earlier- sorry, sometimes I just can‘t recall a screen name). Sometimes, we just need to see how things go in more controversial (and topic areas that are just geared to issues/feelings we are going through at the moment) threads and see if we can trust that unwarranted shit won't get slung our way. Yanno, will I actually be heard? Now I'm going be quiet some and let the thread go where it goes and just listen/read.

[Kosmo]

Here is the issue for me: I have none. I've never been wounded. I can only speak from an observers point of view. While this may not help the discussion and may seem naive, I would like to know what we have in common.

What I am impressed with is that other folks, like femmes, can delve into some insightful stuff. They look inside of themselves to find those hurts and where they might originate from. They have discussions, they give support and help others find a voice even when they don't agree. They have a bonding that I'm a little envious of.

I'm very confident about who I am, but the world can look so alien to me as I look upon it from my vantage point. At times I feel invisible. Just me alone with my identity and at times I feel like all eyes are on me. Trying to figure me out. How do you find your comfort zone in the world?

Sometimes I see us as phantoms. Coming and going almost stealthily and blending in until that moment when you notice that someone 'sees' you.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Kosmo

Here is the issue for me: I have none. I've never been wounded. I can only speak from an observers point of view. While this may not help the discussion and may seem naive, I would like to know what we have in common.

What I am impressed with is that other folks, like femmes, can delve into some insightful stuff. They look inside of themselves to find those hurts and where they might originate from. They have discussions, they give support and help others find a voice even when they don't agree. They have a bonding that I'm a little envious of.

I'm very confident about who I am, but the world can look so alien to me as I look upon it from my vantage point. At times I feel invisible. Just me alone with my identity and at times I feel like all eyes are on me. Trying to figure me out. How do you find your comfort zone in the world?

Sometimes I see us as phantoms. Coming and going almost stealthily and blending in until that moment when you notice that someone 'sees' you.

This is very true for me, too. I see femmes do this often... the support, the help in finding a voice. And respecting the voices of others. Sure, they disagree, but, the end results look so different to me than among us most of the time. They seem to be able to put aside so much that honestly, gets in our way all of the time. There is some tough stuff being discussed by them in the femme side of this thread, yet, I sense honest interchanges that can get through the BS in the end. They own their own shit, I think. I know, I can't generalize, but, I really do connect with your point, here.

I think you also bring up something else very important - self-confidence. This can be mis-read as arrogance, but it isn't. It's just plain healthy, self-knowledge with no need for defensiveness. Not so easy to develop, but a damn good goal!

Shit, I was going to be quiet...

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

P.S. I do not think that our Hug Fest will be complete unless Bull Dog joins us, though!

LOL Dapper- here is your hug. Cyber hugs for all around and if any of you are ever in Portland, Oregon look me up and you can have real life hugs if you want. Yes I do hug butches and open doors for them too, lol.

I have never considered myself to be in any sort of war. I speak up for what I believe in and have butch and trans friends of all gender persuasions. There are plenty of trans guys and male id butches I know who are not the least bit upset with what I say and don't think I am trashing them. I'm good with where I stand.

Best wishes on your butch bonding.

I have real life butch friends to bond with and real life butch femme socials to attend. Pride is this week in Portland and I have 39 more websites to still put up before I really get to work on my 100 plus websites on top of my two jobs.

best wishes to all,

BullDog

p.s. AtLast- you have a heart of gold and what you are trying to do is awesome. I hope you make it back to Portland for a visit soon- and my little French buddy!