the Femme Rules the Butch Rules

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by Medusa

Hey Nerds,

I know you meant this to be funny and posted it in the humor section. I think you will find many people aren't amused by humor like this that often takes "man" out of the joke and inserts "Butch" or "Transguy" because it often creates this ugly thing where the Butch/Femme dynamic is just a dressing sheet that is thrown over a hetero relationship.

It can feel negating to the actual lived experiences of many of us here and can also feel as if het relationships are being heralded as the "real" relationships while Queer relationships are just cheap knock-offs.

I think you are new to the community so I hope this explanation helps you understand why people are reacting with irritation. Also keep in mind, many "jokes" like this have been posted over the last 12 years.

Thanks!

Hey Medusa, hope you don't mind me adding/giving my input on this, but how about the notion that all heterosexuals (both men and women)/heterosexual relationships are the same? If Nerd's post implies that "man" is replaced by "butch" or "woman" by "femme," then isn't also implying that all heterosexual men and women are carbon copies of one another? I think we should see all people, whether heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, African, European, Asian, butch, femme, trans, none of the above, purple pokadotted elephant etc. as individuals. No one group is a carbon copy of any other particular member of that group. We should know/realise this being a part of a community that claims to be as diverse as ours.

If we look at the larger picture, we're just creating more fences between people, in general. To what end?

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

Hey Medusa, hope you don't mind me adding/giving my input on this, but how about the notion that all heterosexuals (both men and women)/heterosexual relationships are the same? If Nerd's post implies that "man" is replaced by "butch" or "woman" by "femme," then isn't also implying that all heterosexual men and women are carbon copies of one another? I think we should see all people, whether heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, African, European, Asian, butch, femme, trans, none of the above, purple pokadotted elephant etc. as individuals. No one group is a carbon copy of any other particular member of that group. We should know/realise this being a part of a community that claims to be as diverse as ours.

If we look at the larger picture, we're just creating more fences between people, in general. To what end?

Um Nerd's post is am implication that Butch and Femme are a heteronormative carbon copy and we should be ok with someone making ha ha jokes about sexism towards femme's?

Cause that is what those jokes are sayin' and doing

Now I don't know about you but I do not like that kind of message shoved down my throat via comedy.

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Um Nerd's post is am implication that Butch and Femme are a heteronormative carbon copy and we should be ok with someone making ha ha jokes about sexism towards femme's?

Cause that is what those jokes are sayin' and doing

Now I don't know about you but I do not like that kind of message shoved down my throat via comedy.

That's not at all what I was saying in my post... I was actually attempting to expand on the notion of heteronormativity itself. Nevermind.

[Medusa]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

Hey Medusa, hope you don't mind me adding/giving my input on this, but how about the notion that all heterosexuals (both men and women)/heterosexual relationships are the same? If Nerd's post implies that "man" is replaced by "butch" or "woman" by "femme," then isn't also implying that all heterosexual men and women are carbon copies of one another? I think we should see all people, whether heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, African, European, Asian, butch, femme, trans, none of the above, purple pokadotted elephant etc. as individuals. No one group is a carbon copy of any other particular member of that group. We should know/realise this being a part of a community that claims to be as diverse as ours.

If we look at the larger picture, we're just creating more fences between people, in general. To what end?

Actually, for me, I think that het relationships are "normalized" through the media and most of our political, religious, and social systems. I think that we can internally "know" that the paper dolls that the media and systems of power provide to us aren't fair and real but I do personally recognize the validity of the existence of "het norm".

It is important to me in this community that we do rail against "othering". My response above was an attempt to do that

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by Medusa

Actually, for me, I think that het relationships are "normalized" through the media and most of our political, religious, and social systems. I think that we can internally "know" that the paper dolls that the media and systems of power provide to us aren't fair and real but I do personally recognize the validity of the existence of "het norm".

It is important to me in this community that we do rail against "othering". My response above was an attempt to do that

I recognise that the media and religion, in particular, attempt to do this, however, what I'm saying is that I don't think that it is indicative of the situation as it is. At least not in my experience. Stuffing heterosexuals into one box simply because of what the media/religion tries to do just doesn't sit well with me. While there once was a heterosexual norm, I'm not convinced that this is the case today.

Also, I thought I'd add that referring to heterosexuals as a collective in a way, imo, promotes boxing heterosexuals into one specific box. It doesn't recognise "them" as individuals. Again, just my take on it.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

I recognise that the media and religion, in particular, attempt to do this, however, what I'm saying is that I don't think that it is indicative of the situation as it is. At least not in my experience. Stuffing heterosexuals into one box simply because of what the media/religion tries to do just doesn't sit well with me. While there once was a heterosexual norm, I'm not convinced that this is the case today.

Also, I thought I'd add that referring to heterosexuals as a collective in a way, imo, promotes boxing heterosexuals into one specific box. It doesn't recognise "them" as individuals. Again, just my take on it.

Heteronormative standards exist on institutional and structural levels and are the basis used to value heterosexual relationships (the only type of relationships society really recognizes in any sort of "official" way). It also helps to reinforce sexism in many ways. Recognizing that we don't follow heteronormative standards in our community doesn't mean we think all heterosexuals are the same or that all heterosexuals follow heteronormativity to a tee or that they are all bad people.

Nerds, welcome to the site.

I don't agree with the humor either but the person registered in August 2010. Can we cut her some slack and still discuss the topic at the same time?

[Corkey]

So far I think we've all been rather subdued and accommodating in educating a new member... so what exactly is the topic now?

[BullDog]

I don't understand your question Corkey.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I don't understand your question Corkey.

Well first the topic was a joke that isn't and now you say there is a topic, I'd like to know just what the topic is please since you seem to know there is a topic. Now do you understand? ugh.

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

Also, I thought I'd add that referring to heterosexuals as a collective in a way, imo, promotes boxing heterosexuals into one specific box. It doesn't recognise "them" as individuals. Again, just my take on it.

Ender, I don't think for one moment that any of the people who objected to the OP didn't also recognize that it is bullshit and sexist when in the jokes original incarnation (that original incarnation being about straight women.)

I am not so stupid that I don't understand that both of the below jokes are equally appalling:

Why can't Femmes drive?
Because there's no road between the kitchen and the bedroom

Why can't Women drive?
Because there's no road between the kitchen and the bedroom

Both of those jokes are equally irritating to me, and I would personally drop down dead from shock if any of the other posters on this thread didn't ALSO find both jokes -equally- irritating.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by betenoire

Ender, I don't think for one moment that any of the people who objected to the OP didn't also recognize that it is bullshit and sexist when in the jokes original incarnation (that original incarnation being about straight women.)

I am not so stupid that I don't understand that both of the below jokes are equally appalling:

Why can't Femmes drive?
Because there's no road between the kitchen and the bedroom

Why can't Women drive?
Because there's no road between the kitchen and the bedroom

Both of those jokes are equally irritating to me, and I would personally drop down dead from shock if any of the other posters on this thread didn't ALSO find both jokes -equally- irritating.

OK Corkey, perhaps I am a little slow on the uptake. I think there is good discussion around why these types of jokes aren't funny and people are already discussing that without getting into anything with the OP. As Betenoire's post above. I think there is plenty to discuss.

[Corkey]

It is offensive because it is sexist, it is misogynistic, it is dull and sophomoric. The OP is now informed by a whole lot of folks with out one flame as far as I can see. So what is there left to discuss, how we clip our toes? My attempt at humor, directed to no one in particular.

[betenoire]

I am probably a bit of a hypocrit, since I make jokes about me and Nick parroting "traditional" male/female roles.

Mind you, when I do it it drips with irony. When I joke about all the stuff that I have to ask Nick's permission to do - it's because he, zeus, the cats, and now all of you know that I never ask permission to do ANYTHING and even if I did it would be cursory because he'd never be able to stop me from doing anything I felt like doing - and he wouldn't try. (Possibly he wouldn't try because he knows it would be a waste of his time, however.)

(Another favourite joke of mine is the one about how now I'm gonna go do the dishes and make the apartment look nice for "my man". Please, it's fairly common knowledge that there are at least 4 loads of laundry overflowing the hamper and a zillion dvds strewn all over the couch at any given moment. Poor Nick.)

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by betenoire

Ender, I don't think for one moment that any of the people who objected to the OP didn't also recognize that it is bullshit and sexist when in the jokes original incarnation (that original incarnation being about straight women.)

I am not so stupid that I don't understand that both of the below jokes are equally appalling:

Why can't Femmes drive?
Because there's no road between the kitchen and the bedroom

Why can't Women drive?
Because there's no road between the kitchen and the bedroom

Both of those jokes are equally irritating to me, and I would personally drop down dead from shock if any of the other posters on this thread didn't ALSO find both jokes -equally- irritating.

Rather obvious that both are obnoxious, infantile and sexist. What the hell is wrong with people?