Open Letter: Dear Femme

[Isadora]

Originally Posted by kat6071

The problem is IMO that we start asking in the first place...femme asks a question..butch answers..

..if we allow it..is another point!

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I was wondering if you could clarify I am having a hard time getting this..

Are you saying that femme's should not ask questions?

Sorry it's one of those morning where my brain is just not functioning..

I don't get it either. Are you saying that only butches should answer femme questions? Or what Snow said? Or am I just...
dazed and confused, too.

[Bit]

Snow, Isa, if I understand right, Kat is saying that we shouldn't be asking the Butches to answer questions about us in this thread.

[SuperFemme]

Right. So do we need to clarify that in a clearly Femme id'd space? It seems tiresome to me to have to have a disclaimer of "only femmes answer me please".

[SuperFemme]

Has anybody here had the experience of being taken more seriously by both other Femme's and the rest of the community once you are in a long term relationship?

I am coming up on five years with Plato, and finally others have stopped acting like I am out to steal their honey. I personally never think twice about who Plato is around. If hy chose to cheat, that would be on hym. If it was a friend of mine? Same thing. It feels to *me* like there is a tendency to treat others as predators or some such thing.

When I was single I was labeled a slut. I kept hearing about people I'd had sex with. Sigh. Wish I"D BEEN THERE.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

Has anybody here had the experience of being taken more seriously by both other Femme's and the rest of the community once you are in a long term relationship?

I am coming up on five years with Plato, and finally others have stopped acting like I am out to steal their honey. I personally never think twice about who Plato is around. If hy chose to cheat, that would be on hym. If it was a friend of mine? Same thing. It feels to *me* like there is a tendency to treat others as predators or some such thing.

When I was single I was labeled a slut. I kept hearing about people I'd had sex with. Sigh. Wish I"D BEEN THERE.

Yes, I feel taken much more seriously since I have been in a relationship.
Wayyy more seriously.

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

Yes, I feel taken much more seriously since I have been in a relationship.
Wayyy more seriously.

Me too! Did you ever feel others were suspect of you when you were single? Did you feel less visible? Less valued?

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

Me too! Did you ever feel others were suspect of you when you were single? Did you feel less visible? Less valued?

Totally. I went to one of the bashes by myself years ago and yes, I was extremely suspect, in fact, by the end the second day I was getting phone calls from Nashville full of news of my exploits (sexploits?). After that, I went straight back to my room and ordered room service alone each night. But there was talk anyway.

Add Cynthia to the picture and automatically I am accepted and somehow am even seen as prim and proper (as if!).

I remember when I met you, you were single and seemed lost in a sea of judgement. I so knew that feeling. I remember just hugging you at the Ball, I had no words to say to make it all better.

Anyone else experince this?

[cara]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

Me too! Did you ever feel others were suspect of you when you were single? Did you feel less visible? Less valued?

I have spent a large portion of my life single. Going to butch-femme events as a single femme is just plain HARD. So, now I have a love-hate relationship with the larger b-f events. It takes every fiber of my being to remain positive and not start self-hating at those events. I often do feel left out or suspect by others. I don't know that this is because I am projecting my own fears onto the situation or if people really are purposefully leaving me out. Maybe a little of both? Who knows.

On a totally unrelated note, I spend an awful lot of time responding to posts and never actually posting what I've written because I am fearful of offending someone or not sounding academic enough. So, in a way, I guess I'm silencing myself.

I'm working to overcome some of these irrational fears and reading the posts in this thread is very helpful and fills me with hope. You are all so amazing and insightful! Thank you for your support and words!!!

~cara

[Medusa]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

Has anybody here had the experience of being taken more seriously by both other Femme's and the rest of the community once you are in a long term relationship?

I am coming up on five years with Plato, and finally others have stopped acting like I am out to steal their honey. I personally never think twice about who Plato is around. If hy chose to cheat, that would be on hym. If it was a friend of mine? Same thing. It feels to *me* like there is a tendency to treat others as predators or some such thing.

When I was single I was labeled a slut. I kept hearing about people I'd had sex with. Sigh. Wish I"D BEEN THERE.

This is a big HELL YES for me. I have a noticed a huge difference in treatment from both Femmes AND Butches since being in a long-term relationship.

Sadly, I have also noticed that there is often a long memory for gossip and salacious drama.

I have been with Jackhammer for going on 5 years as well and yet, I had an interaction very recently with another Femme reminding me that "my past was colorful and that I had "been around". Nevermind the fact that I have dated exactly THREE people in 10 years. And it isnt even about the fucking numbers. If I had dated and fucked 50 people a month for the last 10 years, it still does not give someone the right to question my relationship status with Jack now or ever. Now, in this circumstance, I know that the person making the statements was making a shitty attempt to silence me with shame. Not so much on that for me anymore.

I even still hear people to this day questioning how the relationship with Jackhammer and I formed. I have had people gossip behind my back and even ask outright to my face "Weren't you both with other people?" as if to invalidate our relationship. I usually give the same spill when this happens:
"Although its nobody's business but ours, the answer is technically "yes". We both LIVED with our exes but had been BOTH been sleeping apart from our exes for a while (a year for me, three years for Jack). We had known each other for 6 years prior to that, we never cheated with each other. When we had the conversation about wanting to be together, we both immediately told her exes and proceeded to make arrangements to disentangle from them".

And just as a sidenote, this "disentanglement" cost me personally about $20,000 in home equity, multiple large personal items like a washer and dryer, furniture, pets, a riding lawnmower, and a vehicle that was in my exes name that was 8 months from being paid off that I had made the $2000 cash down payment on and paid every single payment on from day one that I just WALKED AWAY from. This was NOT something that I just flippantly did. It was a life decision with GREAT financial reprecussions and I still get angry when I think of all of the people who thought they had a right to make judgments on why I left and HOW I left. I also never went public with my reasons for leaving my ex, but it was assumed by most who were even peripheral that it must have been because I "cheated", that I MUST have done something wrong because I was, after all, a "liar", a "whore", a "slut", and a "golddigger". The "golddigger" part is *really* laughable since I worked 2 jobs the ENTIRE span of my last relationship.
(Incidentally, it cost Jack $30,000 cash and a year and a half in court to disentangle from her ex)

I dont mean to spew and want to make clear that none of these players are members here on BFP. The reason I give all of this background is because people who had never even set foot in my home started trying to tell me about my relationship. People who had never even held a conversation with my ex were just automatically "on her side" because of the things that they "thought" they knew about me. People who had ever had any kind of ax to grind with me came out of the woodwork like a bunch of cockroaches to befriend my ex in her "time of need", help spread vicious and untrue gossip about me, and take the personal information that my ex was telling these new "friends" of hers so that they could try to shame me, silence me, or make me feel like a pile of shit.

How this relates to the experience of being taken seriously is multiplied exponentially with all of my experiences as a single Femme, a partnered Femme, a married Femme, and a separated Femme. Intersect those identities with classism, sizism, and ageism and you have a melting pot of goo that wont quit.

Am I taken more seriously now? In some ways, yes.
I have noticed that my sexuality isnt taken as seriously on some level. Maybe because Im now "off the market permanently" or because Im aging. Who knows.

I will say that this is a brilliant discussion and I cant wait to hear more.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Medusa

This is a big HELL YES for me. I have a noticed a huge difference in treatment from both Femmes AND Butches since being in a long-term relationship.

Sadly, I have also noticed that there is often a long memory for gossip and salacious drama.

I have been with Jackhammer for going on 5 years as well and yet, I had an interaction very recently with another Femme reminding me that "my past was colorful and that I had "been around". Nevermind the fact that I have dated exactly THREE people in 10 years. And it isnt even about the fucking numbers. If I had dated and fucked 50 people a month for the last 10 years, it still does not give someone the right to question my relationship status with Jack now or ever. Now, in this circumstance, I know that the person making the statements was making a shitty attempt to silence me with shame. Not so much on that for me anymore.

I even still hear people to this day questioning how the relationship with Jackhammer and I formed. I have had people gossip behind my back and even ask outright to my face "Weren't you both with other people?" as if to invalidate our relationship. I usually give the same spill when this happens:
"Although its nobody's business but ours, the answer is technically "yes". We both LIVED with our exes but had been BOTH been sleeping apart from our exes for a while (a year for me, three years for Jack). We had known each other for 6 years prior to that, we never cheated with each other. When we had the conversation about wanting to be together, we both immediately told her exes and proceeded to make arrangements to disentangle from them".

And just as a sidenote, this "disentanglement" cost me personally about $20,000 in home equity, multiple large personal items like a washer and dryer, furniture, pets, a riding lawnmower, and a vehicle that was in my exes name that was 8 months from being paid off that I had made the $2000 cash down payment on and paid every single payment on from day one that I just WALKED AWAY from. This was NOT something that I just flippantly did. It was a life decision with GREAT financial reprecussions and I still get angry when I think of all of the people who thought they had a right to make judgments on why I left and HOW I left. I also never went public with my reasons for leaving my ex, but it was assumed by most who were even peripheral that it must have been because I "cheated", that I MUST have done something wrong because I was, after all, a "liar", a "whore", a "slut", and a "golddigger". The "golddigger" part is *really* laughable since I worked 2 jobs the ENTIRE span of my last relationship.
(Incidentally, it cost Jack $30,000 cash and a year and a half in court to disentangle from her ex)

I dont mean to spew and want to make clear that none of these players are members here on BFP. The reason I give all of this background is because people who had never even set foot in my home started trying to tell me about my relationship. People who had never even held a conversation with my ex were just automatically "on her side" because of the things that they "thought" they knew about me. People who had ever had any kind of ax to grind with me came out of the woodwork like a bunch of cockroaches to befriend my ex in her "time of need", help spread vicious and untrue gossip about me, and take the personal information that my ex was telling these new "friends" of hers so that they could try to shame me, silence me, or make me feel like a pile of shit.

How this relates to the experience of being taken seriously is multiplied exponentially with all of my experiences as a single Femme, a partnered Femme, a married Femme, and a separated Femme. Intersect those identities with classism, sizism, and ageism and you have a melting pot of goo that wont quit.

Am I taken more seriously now? In some ways, yes.
I have noticed that my sexuality isnt taken as seriously on some level. Maybe because Im now "off the market permanently" or because Im aging. Who knows.

I will say that this is a brilliant discussion and I cant wait to hear more.

Been around???? What are we back in the 40's??????

Christ on a cracker.

I have been called a "golddigger" too. I am WAY more upset about that than pretty much anything I have ever been called. I don't think I will EVER get over that.

Yes I have been way wild, yes I have participated in way risky behavior, yes I am fat, yes I am 46, but I work really hard and always have and I am no fucking Golddigger *picture me screeching*

[Bit]

Originally Posted by Adele

Right. So do we need to clarify that in a clearly Femme id'd space? It seems tiresome to me to have to have a disclaimer of "only femmes answer me please".

I think it's already been clarified, Adele. Multiple people have said in multiple ways, "please, no one speak for us; let us speak for ourselves," and I think probably everyone gets that now.

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by Bit

I think it's already been clarified, Adele. Multiple people have said in multiple ways, "please, no one speak for us; let us speak for ourselves," and I think probably everyone gets that now.

Right, so in that vein, I think that it is FINE if a butch or trans guy responds. Not for us, not about us, but in support of us. Those are the lines that I think get blurred. I for one would LOVE to hear dialogue on ways butches and trans guys can be supportive. From their own mouths. And I am pretty sure that is welcome here.

[KayCee]

Originally Posted by Bit

Snow, Isa, if I understand right, Kat is saying that we shouldn't be asking the Butches to answer questions about us in this thread.

Thanks Bit!

Snow, Isa, I was actually quoting you, Snow and I totally agree with you. We need to speak up for ourselves and not let anyone answer for us..no matter who it is. It's not about femme's asking questions, .. it's about letting butches answer for or about us.. We don't need to question ourselves at all....that's what I meant.

sorry for confusion...

[Isadora]

Originally Posted by kat6071

Thanks Bit!

Snow, Isa, I was actually quoting you Snow and I totally agree with you. We need to speak up for ourselves and not let anyone answer for us..no matter who it is. It's not about femme's not asking questions, it's about letting butches answer for or about us..that's what I meant.

sorry for confusion...

No problem. Thank you for clarifying.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by kat6071

Thanks Bit!

Snow, Isa, I was actually quoting you, Snow and I totally agree with you. We need to speak up for ourselves and not let anyone answer for us..no matter who it is. It's not about femme's asking questions, .. it's about letting butches answer for or about us.. We don't need to question ourselves at all....that's what I meant.

sorry for confusion...

Thank you so much for answering Kat!! My brain is in low gear today along with my body

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Thank you so much for answering Kat!! My brain is in low gear today along with my body

My brain is missing pieces. I win!

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by June

Give it a rest, FBG and go get me a cup of virtual tea.

Daddy June wants in on the Big Mac dealio. I can tell.
Pours a cuppa for Daddy to go with her virtual apple butter.

[little man]

i wanted to thank everyone who is participating in this thread. i'm finding much food for thought here. i appreciate the opportunity to learn to be a better ally. y'all seriously rock.

[blush]

Originally Posted by June

Well. We let them open our doors for us, buy our drinks and hold our purses, why wouldn't they think they could also speak for us as well? And you know, I am saying this tongue in cheek, but there is some truth to it too, I think. I have seen Femme's give their power away to their partners. Come to think of it, I've seen it happen in all kinds of relationships, but we're talking about Femme's right now.

I get your point, but I don't think allowing someone to open a door for me or show those "old school" manners means that I've handed over my power.

For me, it's a cultural way of showing respect. When Goof does it, it's one of his ways of taking care of me. Certainly it's not the only way, but it was the way I was raised, so it is familiar and comfortable to me. I actually feel more powerful with those manners because I feel like I am being deferred to.

[Puplove]

Originally Posted by blush

I get your point, but I don't think allowing someone to open a door for me or show those "old school" manners means that I've handed over my power.

For me, it's a cultural way of showing respect. When Goof does it, it's one of his ways of taking care of me. Certainly it's not the only way, but it was the way I was raised, so it is familiar and comfortable to me. I actually feel more powerful with those manners because I feel like I am being deferred to.

I agree with this - for me, I hold the power to decide to allow someone to open a door, get me a drink, etc. (it's not always a butch/femme situation, I like to do the same for other folks when it would be a nice, friendly, non-patronizing thing to do). I love receiving these compliments in that spirit of respect, and I am more powerful for complimenting them back with my acceptance.

However, if I wait for a butch or anyone else to speak/do something for me because I feel afraid or if I believe that someone won't like me or won't think I'm as cute if I show I have a brain and speak for myself, I just handed over every ounce of self and power to another. (does not apply to when I don't speak up etc because I have chosen to be in that dynamic with another).

And considering what Cara said about not posting - I also often do not post in serious threads because others either say what I would have said before I get caught up in the thread and the point has been made, or because I feel I can learn a lot more from listening/reading rather than thinking up what I want to say. Maybe I silence myself, but I don't see it that way.

P.S. About being academic enough - to me, the more academically something is said, the less effectively and meaningfully it gets communicated. Simple is powerful.