It's Time to Boycott Arizona - Page 43

QueenofSmirks · 11-28-2010, 06:34 PM

I find it offensive that it is implied that anyone who lives here (in Arizona) or stands up for it is somehow a part of "this racist state".

The entire state is not racist; I don't even agree that the majority of people who live here are racist. I, do, however, believe that our political system is fucked up and people get elected for ALL KINDS of reasons, not necessarily because they are popular or right or hold a majority opinion. The same goes for laws written by these people. I lived in Colorado when Amendment 2 passed - the first anti-gay legislation to ever get on a ballot. I didn't hate or blame the entire state of Colorado. The wording on the ballot was confusing; the conservative right banded together and got everyone in a frenzy - so it passed.

I don't believe in boycotting the entire state of Arizona, I didn't believe in it before I moved here either. I do believe in fighting the problems, instead of "throwing out the baby with the bath water" so to speak.

Kobi · 11-28-2010, 06:38 PM

Sparkle,

Thank you for your response. I understand your positions better now.

One of the complexities with this situation which worries me is when I hear people calling to boycott a state (or anything else for that matter) and wishing harm come to any group (or government) because of their beliefs.

The reasons it bothers me are two fold. First, the vehemence with which these words are spoken are full of anger and "hate". Hate of hate is still hate.
If one wants a more rational approach to issues facing the world at large, using hate to combat hate just seems to breed more hatred. It doesnt make sense to me as an effective method.

Second, when I hear people talk about boycotts....sometimes this is effective, providing it is aimed at the correct places. If there arent enough dollars coming into Arizona because of a boycott, who do you think is going to be hurt most by this? Will the governor not have a place to call home or have an empty belly? NO. The very people you are trying to advocate for are the very people who get hurt when the government (and I use the term loosely here) doesnt have the money for the programs that people rely on.

I understand the outrage and I understand the issues around racial profiling. What I don't understand is how the methods being promoted to deal with it are any better than the initial issue.

In this respect, the government is saying there are "acceptable losses" in dealing with immigration issues. And the response is saying there are "acceptable losses" in boycotts. Both are throwing the groups in question under the wheels of the bus in their quest to be right.

It is a very complex issue for many countries. And no one, yet, seems to have a viable answer. But, I am pretty sure, crucifying the people you are trying to protect, from either standpoint, isnt it.

QueenofSmirks · 11-28-2010, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

No one is jumping Cody or saying Cody shouldn't be here etc etc. What I do see is people who are passionate express themselves about what is going on and its injustice.

I'll agree to disagree.... You call it being passionate, I see it as something else .

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Oh as for the economic demise wished upon your state- Sometimes we need to give up things to get what we must have. I would rather have nothing then stand by and watch someone stripped of their human rights, I sometimes envy those who pick comfort over what is right, till we are all willing to hurt a lil, bleed a lil, lose a lil, then nothing is ever going to change.

My comment about the economic demise wished upon this state has nothing to do with me personally. I can go anywhere; I'm not tied here, I don't have family here. This is not to say I would run away, but I do have other options if things get crazy.

I do stand up for human rights, and I'm rather vocal about it. My point was that I'm concerned about the people you all claim to be so concerned about. What will happen to THEM if Arizona collapses? Do you think they'll just dust themselves off and start over??? Do you really think an economic collapse of this state is going to magically fix everything?

Corkey · 11-28-2010, 07:06 PM

I think that the state won't collapse as you say, but I do think if the people, you know that 70% who agree with that racist law, feel the economic sting of the boycott then it is well worth the fight. You see those are the folks who don't care about the welfare of their brothers and sisters, and are likely the vary people who would deny you your rights.
So yes the political pressure of the boycott will have consequences, and I sure hope folks start paying attention to what is happening because of racist laws.
We are not a free society if the least of us are not free.

Julie · 11-28-2010, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by QueenofSmirks

I'll agree to disagree.... You call it being passionate, I see it as something else .

My comment about the economic demise wished upon this state has nothing to do with me personally. I can go anywhere; I'm not tied here, I don't have family here. This is not to say I would run away, but I do have other options if things get crazy.

I do stand up for human rights, and I'm rather vocal about it. My point was that I'm concerned about the people you all claim to be so concerned about. What will happen to THEM if Arizona collapses? Do you think they'll just dust themselves off and start over??? Do you really think an economic collapse of this state is going to magically fix everything?

Stephanie,

I completely understand your concern. You live in Arizona. MY GOD - I would be panicking just about now, if my state was potentially going to see a collapse. I believe your state is in major trouble. I would start looking for an escape route. Truly!

If New York were to instill such a law on the books. I can promise you this. I would start planning on leaving New York. But not before I got off my ass and fought the fight. I would not give my money to a state which discriminates and is no better than those who practice ethnic cleansing. Just because we are not killing people - The propaganda which your state is putting forth, such as the billboard Snow posted earlier - Is license to KILL!

As a member of a country which allows free speech (an oxymoron of sorts). I am embarrassed when I tell people I am american. I am ashamed. And one day when my kids are older - I will leave.

And the people who are against the bill. I am sorry for them. Truly sorry for them. I am hoping they are out looking for jobs in other states. I am also hoping they are campaigning in full force against this. However, we do know this to be true. So many bitch and cry and stomp their feet - but they never use their voices.

Julie

Kobi · 11-28-2010, 07:42 PM

Corkey,

I hope you know how much I respect you even tho we don't always agree on issues.

This is really bugging me because we all seem to be operating on the idea that the problem is because of everyone else. It is not US, it is THEM.... however you see us and them.

The us and the them is a nasty way of looking at unpleasant issues. Because sometimes, WE are THEM or US and it "aint" pretty.

Example......have you seen the movie "Flag Wars"? http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0359281/ It is a fascinating wake up call when groups that are oppressed actually become the oppressors.

In this documentary, a Black neighborhood in Columbus, Ohio was invaded by white, gay and lesbian people. The butch real estate agent did her best to force the city to enforce building codes. In doing so, she singlehandedly, threw people out of their family homes because they lacked the resources to bring the properties up to code and, because they were poor and Black, they couldn't get loans to cover the costs. Hence, here is a neighborhood of cheap homes ripe for the picking by white persons of queerness who acted like vultures in snatching up as many underpriced properties as they could.

It sickened me to watch my brothers and sisters act like unfeeling robots focused only on the attainment of property without any regard as to how they came by it or what deviousness was used for them to have this opportunity.

But, were the queers out there saying hey, this isnt right? This isnt ethical? Did our queer buds give a crap about the people they displaced? Did we queerfolk care that we were taking advantage of people who had no means to defend themselves or their homes? Were we out there marching and protesting and calling for boycotts? Nope.

This is US doing to THEM, just as WE have been done against. This was, quite simply, the most disgusting display of white priviledge, white audacity, queer audacity, and simple inhumanity.

My point is before we start pointing fingers, assigning blame, and acting all righteous and stuff....we need to take an inventory of ourselves. It is really easy to be liberal and loving and concerned for equality in a vacuum like this. It is quite another to live it out there in the real world where we are faced with difficult, complex, sometimes disgusting choices.

Life is just not that simple. Answers are just not that simple.

QueenofSmirks · 11-28-2010, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corkey

I think that the state won't collapse as you say, but I do think if the people, you know that 70% who agree with that racist law, feel the economic sting of the boycott then it is well worth the fight. You see those are the folks who don't care about the welfare of their brothers and sisters, and are likely the vary people who would deny you your rights.
So yes the political pressure of the boycott will have consequences, and I sure hope folks start paying attention to what is happening because of racist laws.
We are not a free society if the least of us are not free.

Yes, a boycott certainly will have consequences... likely very bad consequences for the very people you claim it will "help". It's a BAD idea, but hey, I'm willing to listen and read about any statistical facts that prove otherwise. And I don't mean historical facts about OTHER boycotts in other places, I mean the supposed / theoretical boycott of Arizona NOW, and how it is "helping" to resolve these issues. Just for the record, I'm not the one that brought up the idea/wish for a collapse of Arizona, I'm merely responding.

Corkey · 11-28-2010, 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kobi

Corkey,

I hope you know how much I respect you even tho we don't always agree on issues.

This is really bugging me because we all seem to be operating on the idea that the problem is because of everyone else. It is not US, it is THEM.... however you see us and them.

The us and the them is a nasty way of looking at unpleasant issues. Because sometimes, WE are THEM or US and it "aint" pretty.

Example......have you seen the movie "Flag Wars"? http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0359281/ It is a fascinating wake up call when groups that are oppressed actually become the oppressors.

In this documentary, a Black neighborhood in Columbus, Ohio was invaded by white, gay and lesbian people. The butch real estate agent did her best to force the city to enforce building codes. In doing so, she singlehandedly, threw people out of their family homes because they lacked the resources to bring the properties up to code and, because they were poor and Black, they couldn't get loans to cover the costs. Hence, here is a neighborhood of cheap homes ripe for the picking by white persons of queerness who acted like vultures in snatching up as many underpriced properties as they could.

It sickened me to watch my brothers and sisters act like unfeeling robots focused only on the attainment of property without any regard as to how they came by it or what deviousness was used for them to have this opportunity.

But, were the queers out there saying hey, this isnt right? This isnt ethical? Did our queer buds give a crap about the people they displaced? Did we queerfolk care that we were taking advantage of people who had no means to defend themselves or their homes? Were we out there marching and protesting and calling for boycotts? Nope.

This is US doing to THEM, just as WE have been done against. This was, quite simply, the most disgusting display of white priviledge, white audacity, queer audacity, and simple inhumanity.

My point is before we start pointing fingers, assigning blame, and acting all righteous and stuff....we need to take an inventory of ourselves. It is really easy to be liberal and loving and concerned for equality in a vacuum like this. It is quite another to live it out there in the real world where we are faced with difficult, complex, sometimes disgusting choices.

Life is just not that simple. Answers are just not that simple.

I'm sorry Kobi that you feel the need to assume my post is about us v them. It is us v us. We all have a responsibility to live an authentic life, to do the right thing by ourselves and others. White people don't get to tell other races that they don't belong here. White people don't get to use others and then throw them away because they aren't documented, they don't get to harass or otherwise discriminate against other people because of their skin color. They sure as hell don't get to lock other races up for profit.
These are the facts of the matter. If you choose to ignore it, by all means do so, but I'll thank you not to assume that I will do the same. It is simple discrimination in any form is vile. I shall not participate in it. I therefore boycott Arizona, and any company doing business in Arizona.

Corkey · 11-28-2010, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by QueenofSmirks

Yes, a boycott certainly will have consequences... likely very bad consequences for the very people you claim it will "help". It's a BAD idea, but hey, I'm willing to listen and read about any statistical facts that prove otherwise. And I don't mean historical facts about OTHER boycotts in other places, I mean the supposed / theoretical boycott of Arizona NOW, and how it is "helping" to resolve these issues. Just for the record, I'm not the one that brought up the idea/wish for a collapse of Arizona, I'm merely responding.

Personally not doing business with Arizona or any company doing business in Arizona. I will continue to do so until that racist law is repealed. That is my right. If it helps to bring down that woman and her cronies who are racist, I don't really care what happens to them.

QueenofSmirks · 11-28-2010, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by InfiniteFemme

Stephanie,

I completely understand your concern. You live in Arizona. MY GOD - I would be panicking just about now, if my state was potentially going to see a collapse. I believe your state is in major trouble. I would start looking for an escape route. Truly!...

I'm not prone to hysteria, especially for something that may or may not happen, and it certainly won't happen overnight in any case. The other side of that coin is I don't consider Arizona "my" state. It's a state - I live here. I've lived in many states. This probably won't be the last state I live in. Yes, while I'm here I am concerned about what goes on here, but do I feel panicked? No, not at all. California is bankrupt but still operates as a state. I have family there. Other than the housing market being in the crapper, like it is all over the U.S., their lives aren't much worse than anyone else's in this country. So no, I don't have an escape route planned. Until there is a reason for me to leave, I'm here.

As I've stated all along, my concern is not for myself - it's for people who don't have the means to go somewhere else and make a better life for themselves. They are going to be hurt most of all by a boycott, not the highly paid assholes who thought up this crap in the first place.

QueenofSmirks · 11-28-2010, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corkey

Personally not doing business with Arizona or any company doing business in Arizona. I will continue to do so until that racist law is repealed. That is my right. If it helps to bring down that woman and her cronies who are racist, I don't really care what happens to them.

Sure, it's your right to boycott... I never implied that you don't have such a right. I'm curious about the effect your boycott is having on the very people who are being discriminated against, although it's certainly your right to harm them as well. I doubt it's having any effect at all on "that woman and her cronies." They will certainly be the last ones to be affected.

Corkey · 11-28-2010, 08:18 PM

The people who I'm talking about are Native to this land, they will survive as they have always done. The migrant workers have already moved on leaving their homes selling their belongings to escape the linch mob mentality that persists in the wild west. Those who are left are the very citizens of this country who feel the whip of racism every single day, and the white people. Frankly I'm not concerned about the white people, they get what they deserve when they voted those morons in, the Native people those are whom I'm concerned about, and help however I can, whenever I can.
I'm done with explaining myself.

QueenofSmirks · 11-28-2010, 09:10 PM

Well, I can't, or won't, jump on the bandwagon of "white people get what they deserve", so I guess this is where we'll part ways in the conversation.

weatherboi · 11-28-2010, 09:17 PM

i boycotted Colorado to the best of my ability back when amendment 2 was presented. for a person that enjoys what Colorado has to offer winter and summer i frequented the state during vacation time. i am sure there are many people here that remember that boycott that the gay community organized back then and i also can remember people in our community moving from there. the gay bashing was out of hand and it was all over the news. do ya'll remember that???

i will boycott Arizona to the best of my ability.

as far as trying to compare the Ohio Easton area take over to the legislation that was created by the citizens and lawmakers of Arizona it really doesn't seem logical. it feels reachy.

i am never a fan of the "pile up" accusations. it seems to me if someone boasts an unpopular opinion then they should be able to deal with others coming in here and stating what they think about it without judgment from the poster or the posters supporters.

katsarecool · 11-28-2010, 09:58 PM

I have read this entire thread and have to say something further as a person who hasn't really participated in it much. I see way more similarities in posts from the "opposing" sides than differences here. I see many of you posting the same ideals and concerns; just wording them differently. I have not read anywhere by anyone that they support SB 1070.

Immigration is such a hot button issue especially in the last few years or so. Well if one looks back through history this is not the first time it has come up and become heated. It does seem to come up more often in times when a country is economic distress. It doesn't help that the Republican party has stoked the fires of fear, hatred, resentment, myths and down right lies concerning our neighbors to the South.

Perhaps the laws that are presently on the books are faulty and do need reform. But there was never a need for the mean-spirited SB1070!!! Or people in office like Jan Brewer and that nasty sheriff!!! I think that the laws that are on the books should be enforced and obeyed by employers. I agree that unless someone has a legal right to work in this country (green card) then they should not be allowed to do so. But on the other hand our laws need to be more inclusive of people who are not of White European ancestry. Because clearly they are not as they stand presently.

I think that every person who has ever stepped foot on this continent came here because they wanted a better way of life for themselves and their families. And while there are many aspects of our history here in the US that I am not proud of; emigrants from all over the world have made our country what it is today. Strong, powerful, empathetic and compassionate.

Julie · 11-28-2010, 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katsarecool

I agree that unless someone has a legal right to work in this country (green card) then they should not be allowed to do so. But on the other hand our laws need to be more inclusive of people who are not of White European ancestry. Because clearly they are not as they stand presently.

Have you ever attempted to apply for a Green Card? This country does not welcome immigrants. In order to get the Green Card, you either have to marry or you have to pay off some rich attorney.

This country does not welcome immigrants. Not even those immigrants who served in the military as one of our allies.

Quote from Immigration Equality:

"Under current U.S. immigration laws, lesbian and gay Americans do not have the right to sponsor their foreign national partners for residency, as their straight neighbors do. Instead, immigration laws force these couples — about 17,000 of whom are raising young children who are American citizens — to separate or leave the country, forced into exile because their families are not recognized under federal law. This painful reality is forcing many American citizens, and their families, to flee their own country, exacting a heavy cost on our economy, communities and on the countless people who constitute their extended families, too."

There are 19 countries which allow for this. Yet the USA does not. Ireland is coming up, so make that 20.

http://www.immigrationequality.org

Now... Let's imagine a poor Mexican person living in a remote part of his/her country and all they want to do is provide a safe place for their family. I lived in mexico as a child and saw the poverty and disease because of poor living conditions and poor health care.

I will always believe in opening our borders. It is what this country was based on. Statue of Liberty still stand today...

Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

Have we forgotten?

Soon · 11-28-2010, 10:22 PM

Kats,

Is it Americans who believe that their country is "empathetic and compassionate" (your last sentence in post 866)?

I have to say that, as a Canadian, those are two descriptors that no one I know would ever attach to the USA.

Many people around the world are enraged at the LACK of empathy and compassion demonstrated by some USA policies and laws -- especially when it comes to immigration, war, poverty, social issues, and equality in general.

katsarecool · 11-28-2010, 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by InfiniteFemme

Have you ever attempted to apply for a Green Card? This country does not welcome immigrants. In order to get the Green Card, you either have to marry or you have to pay off some rich attorney.

This country does not welcome immigrants. Not even those immigrants who served in the military as one of our allies.

Quote from Immigration Equality:

"Under current U.S. immigration laws, lesbian and gay Americans do not have the right to sponsor their foreign national partners for residency, as their straight neighbors do. Instead, immigration laws force these couples — about 17,000 of whom are raising young children who are American citizens — to separate or leave the country, forced into exile because their families are not recognized under federal law. This painful reality is forcing many American citizens, and their families, to flee their own country, exacting a heavy cost on our economy, communities and on the countless people who constitute their extended families, too."

There are 19 countries which allow for this. Yet the USA does not. Ireland is coming up, so make that 20.

http://www.immigrationequality.org

Now... Let's imagine a poor Mexican person living in a remote part of his/her country and all they want to do is provide a safe place for their family. I lived in mexico as a child and saw the poverty and disease because of poor living conditions and poor health care.

I will always believe in opening our borders. It is what this country was based on. Statue of Liberty still stand today...

Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

Have we forgotten?

I have been through the process with my ex husband and know how tough it can be. I did say in my post that I thought the present laws needed to be more fair to coming here from countries other than White European. And it does need to be more fair!! I am not sure how this can be done but something needs to be done.

As much as I see flaws in this country I also believe most people here aptly fill my description of strong, empathetic and compassionate. I stand by those words.

Soon · 11-28-2010, 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katsarecool

I have been through the process with my ex husband and know how tough it can be. I did say in my post that I thought the present laws needed to be more fair to coming here from countries other than White European. And it does need to be more fair!! I am not sure how this can be done but something needs to be done.

As much as I see flaws in this country I also believe most people here aptly fill my description of strong, empathetic and compassionate. I stand by those words.

Well, now you are referring to citizens of your country as empathetic and compassionate and not the country itself which is a much different sentiment than in your previous post, #866.

As for going through the process with your ex-husband of USA immigration, at least you were allowed the process.

I am denied the ability to immigrate, work and live with my husband--in the USA--based on the unjust laws of your country.

katsarecool · 11-28-2010, 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HowSoonIsNow

Well, now you are referring to citizens of your country as empathetic and compassionate and not the country itself which is a much different sentiment than in your previous post, #866.

As for going through the process with your ex-husband of USA immigration, at least you were allowed the process.

I am denied the ability to immigrate, work and live with my husband based on the unjust laws of your country.

I am sorry that you are not able to come here to live your life with your partner. And I do hope that will be possible in the future. I do believe once Same Sex marriage is recognized and legalized in this country immigration will be possible for millions. Rightly so.

As far as your first paragraph I am not seeing what you are seeing.

My ex husband was from Colombia, and believe me getting a green card for someone from that country was not an easy matter. Or pleasant either.

11-28-2010, 06:34 PM	#841
QueenofSmirks Member How Do You Identify?: Just Me Preferred Pronoun?: she/her Relationship Status: Busy Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Phoenix - Valley of the Sun Posts: 1,429 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 1,010 Thanked 2,916 Times in 880 Posts Rep Power: 21474853	I find it offensive that it is implied that anyone who lives here (in Arizona) or stands up for it is somehow a part of "this racist state". The entire state is not racist; I don't even agree that the majority of people who live here are racist. I, do, however, believe that our political system is fucked up and people get elected for ALL KINDS of reasons, not necessarily because they are popular or right or hold a majority opinion. The same goes for laws written by these people. I lived in Colorado when Amendment 2 passed - the first anti-gay legislation to ever get on a ballot. I didn't hate or blame the entire state of Colorado. The wording on the ballot was confusing; the conservative right banded together and got everyone in a frenzy - so it passed. I don't believe in boycotting the entire state of Arizona, I didn't believe in it before I moved here either. I do believe in fighting the problems, instead of "throwing out the baby with the bath water" so to speak. __________________ Stephanie "There is only one success - to be able to spend your life in your own way." Christopher Morley

11-28-2010, 06:38 PM	#842
Kobi Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: Biological female. Lesbian. Relationship Status: Happy Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Hanging out in the Atlantic. Posts: 9,234 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 9,840 Thanked 34,634 Times in 7,640 Posts Rep Power: 21474861	Sparkle, Thank you for your response. I understand your positions better now. One of the complexities with this situation which worries me is when I hear people calling to boycott a state (or anything else for that matter) and wishing harm come to any group (or government) because of their beliefs. The reasons it bothers me are two fold. First, the vehemence with which these words are spoken are full of anger and "hate". Hate of hate is still hate. If one wants a more rational approach to issues facing the world at large, using hate to combat hate just seems to breed more hatred. It doesnt make sense to me as an effective method. Second, when I hear people talk about boycotts....sometimes this is effective, providing it is aimed at the correct places. If there arent enough dollars coming into Arizona because of a boycott, who do you think is going to be hurt most by this? Will the governor not have a place to call home or have an empty belly? NO. The very people you are trying to advocate for are the very people who get hurt when the government (and I use the term loosely here) doesnt have the money for the programs that people rely on. I understand the outrage and I understand the issues around racial profiling. What I don't understand is how the methods being promoted to deal with it are any better than the initial issue. In this respect, the government is saying there are "acceptable losses" in dealing with immigration issues. And the response is saying there are "acceptable losses" in boycotts. Both are throwing the groups in question under the wheels of the bus in their quest to be right. It is a very complex issue for many countries. And no one, yet, seems to have a viable answer. But, I am pretty sure, crucifying the people you are trying to protect, from either standpoint, isnt it. __________________

11-28-2010, 07:06 PM	#844
Corkey Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: Human Preferred Pronoun?: He Relationship Status: Very Married Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Where I want to be Posts: 8,155 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 47,491 Thanked 29,270 Times in 6,637 Posts Rep Power: 21474859	I think that the state won't collapse as you say, but I do think if the people, you know that 70% who agree with that racist law, feel the economic sting of the boycott then it is well worth the fight. You see those are the folks who don't care about the welfare of their brothers and sisters, and are likely the vary people who would deny you your rights. So yes the political pressure of the boycott will have consequences, and I sure hope folks start paying attention to what is happening because of racist laws. We are not a free society if the least of us are not free. __________________ "Many proposals have been made to us to adopt your laws, your religion, your manners and your customs. We would be better pleased with beholding the good effects of these doctrines in your own practices, than with hearing you talk about them". ~Old Tassel, Chief of the Tsalagi (Cherokee)

11-28-2010, 07:42 PM	#846
Kobi Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: Biological female. Lesbian. Relationship Status: Happy Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Hanging out in the Atlantic. Posts: 9,234 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 9,840 Thanked 34,634 Times in 7,640 Posts Rep Power: 21474861	Corkey, I hope you know how much I respect you even tho we don't always agree on issues. This is really bugging me because we all seem to be operating on the idea that the problem is because of everyone else. It is not US, it is THEM.... however you see us and them. The us and the them is a nasty way of looking at unpleasant issues. Because sometimes, WE are THEM or US and it "aint" pretty. Example......have you seen the movie "Flag Wars"? http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0359281/ It is a fascinating wake up call when groups that are oppressed actually become the oppressors. In this documentary, a Black neighborhood in Columbus, Ohio was invaded by white, gay and lesbian people. The butch real estate agent did her best to force the city to enforce building codes. In doing so, she singlehandedly, threw people out of their family homes because they lacked the resources to bring the properties up to code and, because they were poor and Black, they couldn't get loans to cover the costs. Hence, here is a neighborhood of cheap homes ripe for the picking by white persons of queerness who acted like vultures in snatching up as many underpriced properties as they could. It sickened me to watch my brothers and sisters act like unfeeling robots focused only on the attainment of property without any regard as to how they came by it or what deviousness was used for them to have this opportunity. But, were the queers out there saying hey, this isnt right? This isnt ethical? Did our queer buds give a crap about the people they displaced? Did we queerfolk care that we were taking advantage of people who had no means to defend themselves or their homes? Were we out there marching and protesting and calling for boycotts? Nope. This is US doing to THEM, just as WE have been done against. This was, quite simply, the most disgusting display of white priviledge, white audacity, queer audacity, and simple inhumanity. My point is before we start pointing fingers, assigning blame, and acting all righteous and stuff....we need to take an inventory of ourselves. It is really easy to be liberal and loving and concerned for equality in a vacuum like this. It is quite another to live it out there in the real world where we are faced with difficult, complex, sometimes disgusting choices. Life is just not that simple. Answers are just not that simple. __________________

11-28-2010, 08:18 PM	#852
Corkey Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: Human Preferred Pronoun?: He Relationship Status: Very Married Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Where I want to be Posts: 8,155 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 47,491 Thanked 29,270 Times in 6,637 Posts Rep Power: 21474859	The people who I'm talking about are Native to this land, they will survive as they have always done. The migrant workers have already moved on leaving their homes selling their belongings to escape the linch mob mentality that persists in the wild west. Those who are left are the very citizens of this country who feel the whip of racism every single day, and the white people. Frankly I'm not concerned about the white people, they get what they deserve when they voted those morons in, the Native people those are whom I'm concerned about, and help however I can, whenever I can. I'm done with explaining myself. __________________ "Many proposals have been made to us to adopt your laws, your religion, your manners and your customs. We would be better pleased with beholding the good effects of these doctrines in your own practices, than with hearing you talk about them". ~Old Tassel, Chief of the Tsalagi (Cherokee)

11-28-2010, 09:10 PM	#853
QueenofSmirks Member How Do You Identify?: Just Me Preferred Pronoun?: she/her Relationship Status: Busy Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Phoenix - Valley of the Sun Posts: 1,429 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 1,010 Thanked 2,916 Times in 880 Posts Rep Power: 21474853	Well, I can't, or won't, jump on the bandwagon of "white people get what they deserve", so I guess this is where we'll part ways in the conversation. __________________ Stephanie "There is only one success - to be able to spend your life in your own way." Christopher Morley

11-28-2010, 09:17 PM	#854
weatherboi Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: Owned boy Preferred Pronoun?: Hey boy!!! Relationship Status: counting freckles slowly under Her direction!!! Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: i have 2 sets of geographic coordinates!!! Posts: 6,097 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 26,797 Thanked 12,549 Times in 2,993 Posts Rep Power: 21474858	i boycotted Colorado to the best of my ability back when amendment 2 was presented. for a person that enjoys what Colorado has to offer winter and summer i frequented the state during vacation time. i am sure there are many people here that remember that boycott that the gay community organized back then and i also can remember people in our community moving from there. the gay bashing was out of hand and it was all over the news. do ya'll remember that??? i will boycott Arizona to the best of my ability. as far as trying to compare the Ohio Easton area take over to the legislation that was created by the citizens and lawmakers of Arizona it really doesn't seem logical. it feels reachy. i am never a fan of the "pile up" accusations. it seems to me if someone boasts an unpopular opinion then they should be able to deal with others coming in here and stating what they think about it without judgment from the poster or the posters supporters.

11-28-2010, 09:58 PM	#855
katsarecool Member How Do You Identify?: Femme Preferred Pronoun?: She, Her, Woman Relationship Status: Single Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Between Athens and Atlanta, Georgia Posts: 1,236 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 3,849 Thanked 1,765 Times in 734 Posts Rep Power: 323366	I have read this entire thread and have to say something further as a person who hasn't really participated in it much. I see way more similarities in posts from the "opposing" sides than differences here. I see many of you posting the same ideals and concerns; just wording them differently. I have not read anywhere by anyone that they support SB 1070. Immigration is such a hot button issue especially in the last few years or so. Well if one looks back through history this is not the first time it has come up and become heated. It does seem to come up more often in times when a country is economic distress. It doesn't help that the Republican party has stoked the fires of fear, hatred, resentment, myths and down right lies concerning our neighbors to the South. Perhaps the laws that are presently on the books are faulty and do need reform. But there was never a need for the mean-spirited SB1070!!! Or people in office like Jan Brewer and that nasty sheriff!!! I think that the laws that are on the books should be enforced and obeyed by employers. I agree that unless someone has a legal right to work in this country (green card) then they should not be allowed to do so. But on the other hand our laws need to be more inclusive of people who are not of White European ancestry. Because clearly they are not as they stand presently. I think that every person who has ever stepped foot on this continent came here because they wanted a better way of life for themselves and their families. And while there are many aspects of our history here in the US that I am not proud of; emigrants from all over the world have made our country what it is today. Strong, powerful, empathetic and compassionate. __________________

11-28-2010, 10:22 PM	#857
Soon Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: femme Relationship Status: attached Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: . Posts: 6,896 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 29,046 Thanked 13,094 Times in 3,386 Posts Rep Power: 21474858	Kats, Is it Americans who believe that their country is "empathetic and compassionate" (your last sentence in post 866)? I have to say that, as a Canadian, those are two descriptors that no one I know would ever attach to the USA. Many people around the world are enraged at the LACK of empathy and compassion demonstrated by some USA policies and laws -- especially when it comes to immigration, war, poverty, social issues, and equality in general.